Electric Vehicle Sales Fall Far Short Of White House Goal

[nutzo]

Pure electric cars are a deal breaker compared to the reliability and cost of a standard car of the same size in my opinion.

There has been much research in hybrids but I really think approached is wrong.
I think there needs to be a departure from batteries all together and instead use high capacity storage caps. Also the idea that you shut the engine off and run on the batteries is totally the wrong approach to a hybrid.

Sounds like you don't own a hybrid.
While a Hybrid might not be the best choice for everyone, it works for me. My commute is 100% city rush hour traffic, and I get almost double the mileage I got out of the non-hybrid version of my car (Camry) I had before. Much of the gas savings comes from shutting down the motor while I'm sitting at the long red lights, and with the Hybrid it means that the air still runs while I'm sitting there in the summer heat. I'd get even better mileage with a plugin hybrid, but the added cost of the larger battery, and the loss of trunk space doesn't make sense for me, even at $4+/gallon for gas.

What I like about the Camry hybrid, is it looks (inside and out) and drives like a normal car.


Most electric cars have several problems:
1. High price for what your get (even with the huge subsidies and tax rebates)
2. Long charging times (even Tesla's 30 minutes to charge the battery to half full is not good enough)
3. Short range, especially if you are driving at highway speeds or using the heat/air
4. Weird compromises such as ugly aerodynamic designs, lack of a spare tire, limited trunk space, etc.

If I might consider an electric car if they could build one with a 400 mile range, that would charge in less than 10 minutes at charging stations as plentiful as gas stations, and that looked like a normal mid sized car, complete decent trunk space and a space tire.
Don't see this happening any time soon, and considering battery technology, I doubt they will ever fix the charging time problem.

While an electric car with a 100 mile range would cover 90% of my driving, what am I supposed to do the other 10% of the time? The added cost of having another car just adds to the costs.

 

[otherweeb]

What would it take for me to buy one?

200 mile range at least
80% charge < 15 minute on 220Volt outlet
80% charge < 4 hours on 120Volt outlet
Below $35,000

Ding ! I'd prefer 300 mile range though. If I can't match my bare basic car why start.

I think I will stick with my asbestos insulation .... it is cheaper, has better insulation properties, sound absorption, fire, chemical and electrical damage resistance over fiberglass insulation ... I mean that's all that matters right?

Sure! As long as you don't breath it - says a former asbestos removal guy. (side note: I hear Chrysotile Canada is giving up on exports.)

 

[nutzo]

See, this is why I say Tesla. Their supercharger stations get you to 80% in 20-30 minutes. If you aren't on a road trip, charge at home. If you are, eat lunch (dinner, breakfast) while it charges. Range is in the 300 mile area, certainly much more than 200. For the range you get, I think the time for a fast charge is reasonable.

Charging to 50% (or 80%) will not give you that 300 mile range. It assumes your battery is almost empty when you start, and as the battery charges, the rate slows down. (so if you are at 50% already, it's going to take you much longer than 30 minutes to top off you battery with a full charge).

Beside, I don't want to have to plan my vacation around where I can find a supercharger station, or have to sit around waiting for the car to charge. The stations might be on the main highways, but good luck on the back roads or in national parks.

I'll stick to my mid-sized Hybrid with a 600+ mile range and easy/quick fill up at any gas station.

 

[jeremyshaw]

I love what I've read about the Tesla Model S, just can't afford one. Every other EV is an impractical toy from what I've seen.

If other companies would license access to the Tesla supercharger network (and if Elon Musk would allow them to) we might gain some traction in this arena.

I agree, the Model S does it all. Long range (big one), good looking (seriously, why does every other EV have to look like a FWD econocar piece of junk?), and comfortable.


Why, oh why doesn't anyone see that's what really matters in an EV? Something - ANYTHING - that doesn't look like a Nissan Note got porked by a 3rd year art student.

 

[B00nie]

I have a Mercedes hybrid. Electric starter motor and a V8. Works like a wonder!

 

[timberwolf]

$200-$300/month electric bills in the summer and $1.45/ gallon regular gas isn't gonna convince me to try an electric (or a hybrid) car. That is for sure.

 

[Armenius]

If the car isn't affordable and doesn't look good, I'm not going to buy it, period. No plug-in EV on the road looks good enough for me to consider buying one (yes, that includes the Tesla Model S). Even if we expand that to plug-in hybrids there are very few that fit the bill. I'm a fan of the Ford Fusion, but the plug-in version of the hybrid is around $10k-$15k more than the standard hybrid. F- that noise.

 

[Ruoh]

Sounds like you don't own a hybrid.
While a Hybrid might not be the best choice for everyone, it works for me. My commute is 100% city rush hour traffic, and I get almost double the mileage I got out of the non-hybrid version of my car (Camry) I had before.

Thought about changing your schedule to avoid the traffic? If I leave 30 minutes earlier than I need (should), I shave 10-15 minutes off my drive time.

 

[whiz187]

The politicians whined and sniveled, "Everybody needs to go green, Everybody buy fuel efficient vehicles." Now they cry because people did and "We are not getting the gas tax revenues we used to." So here on the left coast they now want to tax you buy the miles driven. Our illustrious moron of a goobernor of CA is looking for 5K good men to test his new GPS add on for road tax. What a buffoon. OR & WA falling right in line. I think ID is too.

On the other hand with the price of gas as it is, people are back to buying more urban assault vehicles and pick up trucks.

A question for those of you that live in the Portland Oregon area, How do the smog check Hybrids? (mandatory up there) I drive a Ford Fusion and the gas engine does not run at idle. Normal surface street driving with traffic it is mostly electric.

 

[T4rd]

I own a 2013 Chevy Volt. I bought it for $15,000. It's in perfect condition and honestly it's my favorite car I've ever owned.

How'd you get that deal? It already have 100k on it or something? I was shopping for them a few years ago and came to the conclusion that they're much better to lease, as the $8500 tax credit (that I don't think would benefit me any) is applied directly to the price of the car, plus I was leery or getting a 1st gen EV and being stuck with a battery that's lost a significant amount of its capacity after several years.

 

[/dev/null]

What it would take for me to buy an electric car:

80 mile range @ 70mph with headlights, wipers, and rear defrost as well as cabin heat on max and it should have this range 15 years after I bought it (I keep my cars that long).
Under $20k new.
Stick shift preferred (to actually have some fun).

Get to it!

 

[Deleted member 126051]

I need something with a comparable range to a average (non-sports) car/truck. For most, this is 300-400 miles-per-tank. I don't do a lot of long trips. But when I do, I'm on a schedule, and I need to make as many miles as possible on a single "tank".

I also need something that recharges as fast as a gas fill-up. Waiting 30 minutes every 200 additional miles is fucking useless to me.

I also need charging stations need to be ubiquitous. I can't be going "Well, there's one here, but it's only halfway through my charge...And the next one is going to be close because it's right out at the ragged edge of battery capacity..." I want to be able to pull off the road anywhere you'd find a fill station and have an EV charging facility.

Until then, EVs are toys for rich schmucks.

 

[sfsuphysics]

Well duh, I doubt anyone with a shed of logic would be surprised. As a mass market vehicle they aren't even slightly competitive with ic. I have no objection to buying one IF it is equivalent to my ic car. What would it take to be there?

Comparable price for car size and options.
Comparable range and recharge convenience. 30 minutes isn't convenient or even acceptable.
Decent designs as most ev's are still horrible looking.

So give me an ev that looks good, costs the same, has a 350+ mile range, and charges in 5 minutes and I'm sold. Until then fuck off with your hipster mobile.

This post for the most part shows another aspect as to why EVs aren't selling to much.
Comparable price, no arguments there
Comparable range and recharge convenience, you're never going to hit this goal ever, the even if you had a battery the size of a walnut that could drive you 1000 miles on a single charge, it will still take longer to charge up than it will to fill up gas, physics pretty much dictates this with the thickness of wires that would be required to supercharge something in 5 minutes to have that range
Decent design, yup many Americans are just too fucking vain about what their things look like. Functionality be damned (if it existed) if it don't look cool it's a piece of shit.
Fuck off with your hipster mobile, is just the icing on the cake, it's like calling someone a liberal, it's basically an ad hominem attack on something to justify why you don't like it.

As it stands EVs are not meant for long trips, they are meant for commuter cars, and they do that job just fine unless you think a 100 mile a day commute is "normal". So much like the argument was with SUVs and their ability to move your entire family and all your possessions at a moment's notice most of the time they're driving to work with a single person, and then sitting in a parking lot for 8 hours a day until you're done with work.

I totally get that IC is the best of all worlds, gas is cheap (now), and there's really no limitations on it, and if that's something you need then fine, stick with IC. However what people need, and what they think they need are often vastly different things. Much like people who live in major metropolitan cities are starting to realize that they don't even need a car, and that it's financially more efficient to simply rent one in those rare occasions that they do need to drive 350+ miles, or buy furniture (or other large items too impractical to take on a bus). There may one day be a time when someone says "well shit, 300 days a year I only drive 20 miles to work, and 9 years out of 10 we fly somewhere for vacation we don't drive there"... that day just isn't today.

 

[defaultluser]

As someone who lives in the first province/state to eliminate coal burning power plants I reject your "could" and "likely".

It's easier when your power needs are already 78% handled by nuke and hydro, and you have plenty of wind assets available (the cheapest renewable).

http://e360.yale.edu/feature/how_ontario_is_putting_an_end_to_coal-burning_power_plants/2635/

Yes, I can read. It's a habit of us cynics you blue sky liberals hate so much

The problem with electric vehicles is not what the generation source is, but building-out the grid to deliver enough power for all-day recharging, and building thousands of recharge points: how do city dwellers charge their cars parked at the curb? And how do you entice people with the "let it charge wile you are doing other things" angle if the charging spaces are already taken, and they are out of juice?

And figuring out a way to let your car charge without assholes disconnecting it overnight is also kinda important. You know, IT'S SO EASY!

 

[Draax]

It's easier when your power needs are already 78% handled by nuke and hydro, and you have plenty of wind assets available (the cheapest renewable).

http://e360.yale.edu/feature/how_ontario_is_putting_an_end_to_coal-burning_power_plants/2635/

Yes, I can read. It's a habit of us cynics you blue sky liberals hate so much

The problem with electric vehicles is not what the generation source is, but building-out the grid to deliver enough power for all-day recharging, and building thousands of recharge points: how do city dwellers charge their cars parked at the curb? And how do you entice people with the "let it charge wile you are doing other things" angle if the charging spaces are already taken, and they are out of juice?

And figuring out a way to let your car charge without assholes disconnecting it overnight is also kinda important. You know, IT'S SO EASY!

Being concerned about the environment makes you a liberal? So does that mean if you are a conservative you hate the environment? Pretty silly to attach a political affiliation IMO.

Additionally, the poster I was responding to was claiming that power generation, required for EVs, would cause more damage than burning fossil fuels. A lack of infrastructure, for electric vehicles, is an entirely different thing.

I do wonder, if those riding on horseback or by way of horse and carriage shouted down the internal combustion engine because of a lack of infrastructure, in those days, when the food and water, for their horses, was so readily available.

 

[Dr. Righteous]

Sounds like you don't own a hybrid.

Correct. I do not own a hybrid.
My last car was a '69 Dodge Coronet with a 10:1 big block.
My performance goals were for good mileage rather than speed; and it got great mileage for what it was.

It has been some kind of truck or SUV ever since.
But I do not see how this disqualifies me from commenting on hybrid car technology.

 

[nilepez]

Gee, I don't know. Maybe it has to do with the crappy range of electric cars (Not gas/electric hybrids), how expensive they are and of course the low gas prices that we currently have.

I think it's mostly price. If you have more than one car, then the range may not matter. You can have a long range car and one for commuting to work. The Model 3 will likely fit the bill, but a Model S is awfully expensive for a car that can't go 400 miles at real highway speeds. Even the Roadster can only do that if you drive it at 55 mph (and who drives a sports car 10-20 mph under the speed limit?

 

[mynamehere]

EVs won't be truly competitive until they're as convenient to charge as filling a gas tank.
Adding days (if not week(s)) to a coast to coast trip is not exactly my idea of convenient.

 

[Zion Halcyon]

*sigh*

The thing that the tree-banging hipsters don't get is most of America, in fact most of the world doesn't rightly give a flying shit about the environment, just as most of America doesn't give a shit what it eats, which is why they let the food industry get away with putting artificial sugars in just about everything, hence causing a shit ton of the health problems in the country today.

No, what matters is convenience. You want to sell an electric car? Don't tell people it will save the planet; they don't give a shit, and as a wise comedian once said, the planet will be fine - its the people who will be fucked.

No, if you want to sell an electric car, make one that is cheaper, more convenient, one that makes more practical sense. If you can do that, THEN you can slide in your "green" message as a topper to help someone feel good about their purchase. But people are inherently selfish. You want to help the planet? Help the people first with something that makes sense to them AND is good for the planet.

Really no different than Jamie Kennedy from nearly a decade ago - wanted to replace school lunches with all natural foods, but was fucking clueless about the constraints people have, such as resources and budgets to be able to do it. He never quite got the $$$ side of the argument.

 

[SuperSubZero]

Thought about changing your schedule to avoid the traffic? If I leave 30 minutes earlier than I need (should), I shave 10-15 minutes off my drive time.

The reason the traffic exists in the first place is that most people don't have the luxury of deciding when they work.

 

[lcpiper]

This post for the most part shows another aspect as to why EVs aren't selling to much.
Comparable price, no arguments there
Comparable range and recharge convenience, you're never going to hit this goal ever, the even if you had a battery the size of a walnut that could drive you 1000 miles on a single charge, it will still take longer to charge up than it will to fill up gas, physics pretty much dictates this with the thickness of wires that would be required to supercharge something in 5 minutes to have that range
Decent design, yup many Americans are just too fucking vain about what their things look like. Functionality be damned (if it existed) if it don't look cool it's a piece of shit.
Fuck off with your hipster mobile, is just the icing on the cake, it's like calling someone a liberal, it's basically an ad hominem attack on something to justify why you don't like it.

As it stands EVs are not meant for long trips, they are meant for commuter cars, and they do that job just fine unless you think a 100 mile a day commute is "normal". So much like the argument was with SUVs and their ability to move your entire family and all your possessions at a moment's notice most of the time they're driving to work with a single person, and then sitting in a parking lot for 8 hours a day until you're done with work.

I totally get that IC is the best of all worlds, gas is cheap (now), and there's really no limitations on it, and if that's something you need then fine, stick with IC. However what people need, and what they think they need are often vastly different things. Much like people who live in major metropolitan cities are starting to realize that they don't even need a car, and that it's financially more efficient to simply rent one in those rare occasions that they do need to drive 350+ miles, or buy furniture (or other large items too impractical to take on a bus). There may one day be a time when someone says "well shit, 300 days a year I only drive 20 miles to work, and 9 years out of 10 we fly somewhere for vacation we don't drive there"... that day just isn't today.

I disagree, I think they are being sold as commuter vehicles cause what it really boils down to is they don't measure up and it's the only role they are capable of performing well at and are impractical for most anything else.

Without government subsidies they are not cost effective purchases.
They are limited in range, capacity, and in short, usefulness.
In the end, you can not convince most people to buy something as expensive as a vehicle with such limitations. Many people simply can't afford multiple vehicles so the one they buy has to do most anything they might need it for. Sure, you can convince some, but I would never pay more for something that is so limited in usefulness.

Besides, I'm one of those guys that likes driving, likes to hear the engine and the exhaust, the feel of harder cornering and getting pushed back into the seat a little. Now a Tesla will do this pretty well, but at over $100K new and with no charging stations within 70 miles it is simply not an option.

I could buy a freakin Hellcat Challenger with 707 HP, save over 35K which would buy a whole lotta gas and be a much more satisfying ride for what I like in a vehicle. The math isn't even close for me.

 

[Endgame]

EVs won't be truly competitive until they're as convenient to charge as filling a gas tank.
Adding days (if not week(s)) to a coast to coast trip is not exactly my idea of convenient.

If you're driving coast to coast, you're not the target market. I can't actually name anyone I know that has driven coast to coast - do people actually ever do that? Sounds like a terrible waste of time.

 

[nilepez]

Still not enough incentive to go EV imo. Prices are too high even with the tax breaks.

Even with the discounts I can buy a high MPG car and pay for gas over the lifetime of the car and still come out cheaper than what an EV would cost upfront. Not to mention I'm guessing the batteries in an EV would have to be replace at sometime over the life of the car and that can't be cheap. Plus you still have all the other normal maintenance items.

My understanding is that batteries in the Prius were generally still working 10 years later. I'm not sure what the batteries cost. Might be 10k, but maybe that's the battery in a Tesla.

 

[nilepez]

Left alone, EVs would still become the future if that is what they are destined to be. We don't need to force it to happen. We don't need to subsidize adoption, people will buy them when they become practical as an option. Business will invest when they become practical as a profitable product. The only thing the Government ever needed to do was to make sure regulation is in place to support EV roll-out as it naturally develops and ensure infrastructure is in place and or modified in order to support EV deployment and use. That's my take on it.

Maybe, but forcing the issue (by raising CAFE standards) is a part of why your gas prices are falling. Businesses are notoriously short sited. They have to report quarterly numbers and unless you're Tesla, you can't talk about your 20 year plan. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. By enforcing it, every MFG has to do the same thing and it is what it is. I rented a car a few weeks ago, and the MPG is roughly 50% higher than my car.

 

[lcpiper]

I do wonder, if those riding on horseback or by way of horse and carriage shouted down the internal combustion engine because of a lack of infrastructure, in those days, when the food and water, for their horses, was so readily available.

I grandmother was around back then, She could have helped shed some light, but she passed on about 18 years ago.

I can tell you this though. People managed to switch from the horse and buggy to the automobile while almost no supporting infrastructure was in place and without the government having to subsidize the evolution. It happened just because, people decided they wanted them, they made sense.

We can break it down if we want.

Cars were new and exciting, specially for the young.
They were cleaner, you didn't have to feed them or rub them down nearly as much.
They were faster and could carry more.
In short, less trouble and more capability.

Jump to today, EVs are harder to care for and have less capability. No wonder the government has to push their adoption. Until they are either cheaper or offer increased capabilities, they are not a practical option for most people. They aren't ready for the market yet. Someday they may be, but they aren't now.

 

[nilepez]

Beside, I don't want to have to plan my vacation around where I can find a supercharger station, or have to sit around waiting for the car to charge. The stations might be on the main highways, but good luck on the back roads or in national parks.

I'll stick to my mid-sized Hybrid with a 600+ mile range and easy/quick fill up at any gas station.

Exactly. Of course if charging stations were common (esp at hotels), then that wouldn't be a huge issue, but they aren't and I know I couldn't even get to my relatives one state away without driving a hundred miles out of my way to hit a charger. However, if i lived on the west coast, I'd consider it. It seems like there are charging stations all over the place there.

 

[Snowdog]

If you're driving coast to coast, you're not the target market. I can't actually name anyone I know that has driven coast to coast - do people actually ever do that? Sounds like a terrible waste of time.

+1

For a tech site, the forums here often seem more like the Rush Limbaugh fan club, when it comes to anything remotely progressive.

EVs obviously aren't going to work for everyone but the majority of US households are multi-vehicle.

So most people could swap one of their cars, for a EV and use it for commuting. A role where EVs excel. They could still use one of their other vehicles for their coast to coast trips.

It doesn't have to be expensive. You could get a used Leaf for $12K to use as a commuter.

 

[lcpiper]

Maybe, but forcing the issue (by raising CAFE standards) is a part of why your gas prices are falling....

I would say that raising CAFE standards so that manufacturers make better uses of emerging technologies would fall under my statement the "The only thing the Government ever needed to do was to make sure regulation is in place to support EV roll-out as it naturally develops....."

But raising efficiency requirements doesn't automakers along a path "blessed by the government", it pushes them to explore many paths because it is an "agnostic" requirement that doesn't specify "who" manufacturers must meet the requirements, only that they find a way.

Although I am not super knowledgeable on the subject, this wiki page seems to cover things fairly well and highlight what I am talking about. Over the last several years the Government has spent Billions in incentives and subsidies and more still in Tax breaks targeting Plug-in EVs primarily as the great solution. Why did they have to specify EVs? Why not just set efficiency/capability related targets and goals?

This kind of language from the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 doesn't leave much wiggle room for alternatives does it? It sorta of says "We're going Electric or Hybrid whether it's the best or not".

Subtitle C: Clean Transportation - (Sec. 121) Amends PURPA to require each electric utility to develop a plan to support the use of plug-in electric drive vehicles, including plug-in hybrids. Authorizes plans to provide for deployment of electrical charging stations or infrastructure to support such vehicles. Directs the state regulatory authority or a utility (in the case of a non-regulated utility) to: (1) require that charging infrastructure deployment is interoperable with products of all manufactures; (2) establish protocols and standards for integrating plug-in electric drive vehicles into an electrical distribution system and include the ability for each plug-in electric drive vehicle to be associated with its owner's electric utility account, regardless of its location, for billing purposes; and (3) review such standards within three years. Establishes compliance provisions.

 

[THRESHIN]

i think it comes down to what has been the problem all along: any mass production battery technology just isn't ready for this application from a cost and capacity standpoint. at least not for most of us. i drive 100km each way to work so a full EV is simply not a viable option.

i ditched smoking for vaping couple years back, so i've now had a lot of exposure to Li Ion batteries and their lifespan for higher output applications. i find i'm replacing my batteries after about a year of use due to the voltage falling off...and i cycle through 4 cells. automotive batteries might be better, but this is a far more demanding application. i can't see it being great. even a smartphone has less capacity after a year or two.

i'd love to own an EV one day. not having to go to the gas station to fill up and spending less on 'fuel' is very enticing. still waiting for the day that an EV is an option....till then i'm rather enjoying my new mazda 3

 

[cyclone3d]

If you're driving coast to coast, you're not the target market. I can't actually name anyone I know that has driven coast to coast - do people actually ever do that? Sounds like a terrible waste of time.

I used to do Arizona <-> Florida back when I was in college.

It was a lot cheaper than it would have been shipping stuff back and forth twice a year.

Plus I like driving.

About 27 hours drive/eat/fuel up time plus sleep.

Quickest I ever did it was in 29 hours total.

That time I left from FL about the same time my friend went to the airport. I beat him back to AZ because his flight was delayed.

 

[Tiburon1186]

I don't think anyone has mentioned this, but the cost to insure an EV is significantly higher than a gas version. So not only the cost of the vehicle being higher, but the insurance costs eats up any potential gas savings.

 

[Spidey329]

I love what I've read about the Tesla Model S, just can't afford one. Every other EV is an impractical toy from what I've seen.

If other companies would license access to the Tesla supercharger network (and if Elon Musk would allow them to) we might gain some traction in this arena.

Didn't he open-source it? I thought he did. I'm pretty sure Tesla would license access otherwise, simply because they see growth in the EV market as a positive.

Price is a big concern. The Model X is supposed to be the $50-60k car. The Model 3 is supposed to be the $30-40k car. But the batteries won't drop in price until Tesla has their new factory online.

 

[nilepez]

I would say that raising CAFE standards so that manufacturers make better uses of emerging technologies would fall under my statement the "The only thing the Government ever needed to do was to make sure regulation is in place to support EV roll-out as it naturally develops....."

OK. I assumed it didn't fit your def. We agree

But raising efficiency requirements doesn't automakers along a path "blessed by the government", it pushes them to explore many paths because it is an "agnostic" requirement that doesn't specify "who" manufacturers must meet the requirements, only that they find a way.

Although I am not super knowledgeable on the subject, this wiki page seems to cover things fairly well and highlight what I am talking about. Over the last several years the Government has spent Billions in incentives and subsidies and more still in Tax breaks targeting Plug-in EVs primarily as the great solution. Why did they have to specify EVs? Why not just set efficiency/capability related targets and goals?

This kind of language from the American Clean Energy and Security Act of 2009 doesn't leave much wiggle room for alternatives does it? It sorta of says "We're going Electric or Hybrid whether it's the best or not".

From what I understand, the Manufacturers believe that the only way to meet CAFE standards is to move towards EV/Hybrid. By providing tax credits, it makes the new tech more affordable, increases sales, which, I assume, indirectly subsidizes some of the R&D.

I could be wrong on that, but that's my take on why they're doing it. Eventually the subsidies go away. Thus I don't think the feds give you anything for the most popular hybrids. Not sure if there are still kickbacks for a Model S.

 

[lcpiper]

i think it comes down to what has been the problem all along: any mass production battery technology just isn't ready for this application from a cost and capacity standpoint. at least not for most of us. i drive 100km each way to work so a full EV is simply not a viable option.

i ditched smoking for vaping couple years back, so i've now had a lot of exposure to Li Ion batteries and their lifespan for higher output applications. i find i'm replacing my batteries after about a year of use due to the voltage falling off...and i cycle through 4 cells. automotive batteries might be better, but this is a far more demanding application. i can't see it being great. even a smartphone has less capacity after a year or two.

i'd love to own an EV one day. not having to go to the gas station to fill up and spending less on 'fuel' is very enticing. still waiting for the day that an EV is an option....till then i'm rather enjoying my new mazda 3

I wanted a 3-Speed but I wanted the older sedan look and not the 3 door. I gave up on them, wound up going a different route with my Challenger last year.

 

[amddragonpc]

No more gasoline. And then I'll be buying an electric motorcycle and not a car.

 

[Armenius]

My understanding is that batteries in the Prius were generally still working 10 years later. I'm not sure what the batteries cost. Might be 10k, but maybe that's the battery in a Tesla.

The Nissan Leaf is old enough at this point to see what replacing the battery pack is going to be like. It is under warranty for 96 months/100,000 miles and costs $5,499 plus labor and fees to replace. I've read most owners start to see the pack lose charging capacity around 60,000-70,000 miles. The lifespan and cost of batteries in a hybrid will be different than those in a pure EV.

 

[nutzo]

Thought about changing your schedule to avoid the traffic? If I leave 30 minutes earlier than I need (should), I shave 10-15 minutes off my drive time.

This is Southern California. It's always rush hour

I actually work an earlier schedule to avoid the worse of the traffic, and I live close to work, so even at peak rush hour, the difference would be less than 10 minutes since I still have all the traffic lights.

 

[tybert7]

Well duh, I doubt anyone with a shed of logic would be surprised. As a mass market vehicle they aren't even slightly competitive with ic. I have no objection to buying one IF it is equivalent to my ic car. What would it take to be there?

Comparable price for car size and options.
Comparable range and recharge convenience. 30 minutes isn't convenient or even acceptable.
Decent designs as most ev's are still horrible looking.

So give me an ev that looks good, costs the same, has a 350+ mile range, and charges in 5 minutes and I'm sold. Until then fuck off with your hipster mobile.

I'm in once they can hit 200+ miles range on a charge at 30k and don't look like ass.


The only potential option that comes close to that will be the model 3 from tesla, but still about 5k more than my ideal target.

 

[nutzo]

I could be wrong on that, but that's my take on why they're doing it. Eventually the subsidies go away. Thus I don't think the feds give you anything for the most popular hybrids. Not sure if there are still kickbacks for a Model S.

In the US the subsidies are just for electric or plugin hybrids and are based on the battery size.
May states also have tax rebates for electric or plugin hybrids.

 

[tybert7]

I have a dream, a dream that one day I can get in my electric automated car that has a giant display that can drop down for me to view while I'm driving.


I have a dream, that this electric car will have a battery so large that I can bring along a gaming laptop powered off the car battery that can allow me to engage in pc gaming for 12+ hours at a time while I am being transferred to my destination.


My dreams are greater than all of you ICE lovers. Suck lemon in your gutters of imagination.