Electric Vehicle Sales Fall Far Short Of White House Goal

kumquat said:
Wait, tires? Why tires? If anything, I'd expect EVs to go through tires more quickly than other vehicles due largely to weight. The Leaf weighs 1,000 lbs more than a Versa, for instance.
Click to expand...

I was just pointing out that the main maintenance on an ev is tires, and to a lesser extent brakes. My guess is tires would be slightly less durable on electrics due to both weight and peoples lead feet + the increased torque of electric motors.

Periodic oil changes and tuneups? nope.

transmission repairs? nope.


It would be interesting to see the average maintenance costs over time of an ev vs a gas car. I think this is one of the main reasons dealers don't like electrics. And I read an article that auto parts stores major source of revenue and profits are selling brakes. Both hybrids and electrics are less harsh on brakes so they last longer there.
 
Chas said:
A fill up on a 15 gallon tank takes under 5 minutes. And most people live within a mile or two of a gas station. So if you fill before going home at night, you essentially still have a full tank in the morning. If you fill on your way out, you have a full tank and are only dinged 5 minutes.

Even playing it safe and filling at the quarter tank mark.

1100 miles.

5 minutes
300 miles
5 minutes
300 miles
5 minutes
300 miles
5 minutes
200 miles.

So, at the end of an 1100 mile trip, you've burned 20 minutes "gassing up".

Now let's look at an EV with an optimal trip where you find a charging station everywhere you need to.

300 miles
30 minutes
240 miles
30 minutes
240 miles
30 minutes
240 miles
30 minutes
80 miles

So at the end of an 1100 mile trip, you've burned 2 hours "gassing up".

Even if you happen to have a Tesla Battery Swap station at every stop along the way. You're still stopping for over an hour total.
Click to expand...

Again, you are talking about the occasional road trip. Yes the trip takes longer than a ICE that does NOT stop at all, but I don't know anyone who is going to drive ~1100 miles, or approx ~17 hours of driving or more with traffic, without taking a break at around 65mph.

Your point that you waste a few hours of charging is moot - you will have to stop on an ICE at one point or another unless you have an iron bladder and travel alone. At least on a Tesla, you aren't filling up at $30 or $40 bux a pop for a full tank of gas every few hours. I'd rather save the few hundred bucks spent in gas on a road trip, for the penalty of having a longer drive - at least I won't be completely exhausted when I reach my destination. It's not like I'm in a huge hurry to be anywhere. If you are, then there are better alternatives than driving which tend to be much faster.

Supercharging is free for Tesla, and I bet even a Bolt will be able to use CHAdeMO stations for fast charging, likely free as well (but TBD).
 
tybert7 said:
I was just pointing out that the main maintenance on an ev is tires, and to a lesser extent brakes. My guess is tires would be slightly less durable on electrics due to both weight and peoples lead feet + the increased torque of electric motors.

Periodic oil changes and tuneups? nope.

transmission repairs? nope.
Click to expand...
Modern cars are very low maintenance. It's typically 1 oil change per year and never for transmission repairs. The drivetrain is usually very reliable. Meanwhile despite being an EV, look at all the things Edmunds had to bring their long-term Model S in for:

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html

There's far more to a car than the drivetrain.
 
tybert7 said:
I was just pointing out that the main maintenance on an ev is tires, and to a lesser extent brakes. My guess is tires would be slightly less durable on electrics due to both weight and peoples lead feet + the increased torque of electric motors.

Periodic oil changes and tuneups? nope.

transmission repairs? nope.


It would be interesting to see the average maintenance costs over time of an ev vs a gas car. I think this is one of the main reasons dealers don't like electrics. And I read an article that auto parts stores major source of revenue and profits are selling brakes. Both hybrids and electrics are less harsh on brakes so they last longer there.
Click to expand...

I think the reason you'd go through tires faster on an EV is due to the size and not as much the weight - 21" performance tires aren't really that great on tread-wear. I personally opted for 19", both for cost reasons and new england road crater issues.

But my car so far has no real maintenance - every 2 years they flush the battery coolant and change the brake pads. Yearly inspections are mostly visual, air filters and new wiper blades. No oil changes, no tune ups, no plugs, no fuel filters or belts or the myriad of moving parts on an ICE.

I really hope the Bolt sells well, because 200 miles of range is a GREAT start for the price. The interior is not horrible, and the car is not leaf ugly.
 
SLee said:
Modern cars are very low maintenance. It's typically 1 oil change per year and never for transmission repairs. The drivetrain is usually very reliable. Meanwhile despite being an EV, look at all the things Edmunds had to bring their long-term Model S in for:

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html

There's far more to a car than the drivetrain.
Click to expand...

My Audi S4, and my wife's Nissan Rogue would wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. Every other maintenance (every 10k mi) is a major maintenance - it's not just "change the oil for $20" and move on. Not to mention, the S4 would burn oil, so you have to top it off every 3-4k miles with another quart. That is "Normal" per Audi...
 
kumquat said:
And that schedule is with a Tesla only, and assuming you're traveling along one of the Supercharger Routes, which is a big if.

Imagine doing that in a Leaf.
Click to expand...

You're not making an 1100 mile trip! That was your mileage in 3 months, which is 12mi per day. We're talking about average daily use here. So according to your analysis, you're saving 20 minutes. Maybe that's a big deal, maybe not. Yes, you would need to wait longer for longer trips. The point is, the supercharger stations don't play a factor in an average person's use. They plug in at home, and never have to deal with any of that stuff.
 
Sufu said:
My Audi S4, and my wife's Nissan Rogue would wholeheartedly disagree with that statement. Every other maintenance (every 10k mi) is a major maintenance - it's not just "change the oil for $20" and move on. Not to mention, the S4 would burn oil, so you have to top it off every 3-4k miles with another quart. That is "Normal" per Audi...
Click to expand...

That isn't "normal" for any car. I have a Nissan Rogue and never have issues with it. Sounds like you need another dealer if they are trying to tell you that is normal.
 
jamsomito said:
You're not making an 1100 mile trip! That was your mileage in 3 months, which is 12mi per day. We're talking about average daily use here. So according to your analysis, you're saving 20 minutes. Maybe that's a big deal, maybe not. Yes, you would need to wait longer for longer trips. The point is, the supercharger stations don't play a factor in an average person's use. They plug in at home, and never have to deal with any of that stuff.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure *what* you're talking about.

*I'm* talking about why EV sales are so low compared to previous expectations. The reasons are expense and convenience.
 
Sufu said:
Like BMW and other high end cars don't have similar maintenance? Don't kid yourself.
Click to expand...

Will admit I might be wrong about my wife's Rogue, I only took it to the dealership once because she's never done any maintenance on it outside of the occasional oil change.
 
jamsomito said:
You're not making an 1100 mile trip! That was your mileage in 3 months, which is 12mi per day. We're talking about average daily use here. So according to your analysis, you're saving 20 minutes. Maybe that's a big deal, maybe not. Yes, you would need to wait longer for longer trips. The point is, the supercharger stations don't play a factor in an average person's use. They plug in at home, and never have to deal with any of that stuff.
Click to expand...

Another related point to that analysis.

Even if it's the case that on longer cross country trips there is more downtime, that has to be contrasted with the lower downtime during normal local use with the saved not having to drive a few extra blocks or extra mile to and from gas stations when you do need to fill up. With an electric car and a house, you can keep that topped off at home without the weekly visit to the gas station. Travel time and pump time might be an average of 10 minutes per week, not counting the expense of getting to there and away from there to the desired destination. That's over 500 minutes per year in additional time spent wasting time at the gas station while driving local. Time spent per year at and to gas stations with an electric car?

Zero.

Zero vs over 8 hours of time spent getting to and filling up throughout the year.
 
SLee said:
Modern cars are very low maintenance. It's typically 1 oil change per year and never for transmission repairs. The drivetrain is usually very reliable. Meanwhile despite being an EV, look at all the things Edmunds had to bring their long-term Model S in for:

http://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-s/2013/long-term-road-test/wrap-up.html

There's far more to a car than the drivetrain.
Click to expand...

That's right:

I had to replace exhaust systems, fuel filler pipes, gas tanks, fuel filters, accessory belts.

So yeah, it isn't just the drive-train, it is all the support systems for them as well.

The sheer complexity and part count involved in the engine/transmission and all the support systems, will lead to a drastic simplification, and reliability increase, when cars go pure EV.
 
kumquat said:
And that schedule is with a Tesla only, and assuming you're traveling along one of the Supercharger Routes, which is a big if.

Imagine doing that in a Leaf.
Click to expand...

Dude! That's like asking someone to imagine being sodomized with a V8 Chainsaw...TWICE!
 
Sufu said:
Again, you are talking about the occasional road trip. Yes the trip takes longer than a ICE that does NOT stop at all, but I don't know anyone who is going to drive ~1100 miles, or approx ~17 hours of driving or more with traffic, without taking a break at around 65mph.

Your point that you waste a few hours of charging is moot - you will have to stop on an ICE at one point or another unless you have an iron bladder and travel alone. At least on a Tesla, you aren't filling up at $30 or $40 bux a pop for a full tank of gas every few hours. I'd rather save the few hundred bucks spent in gas on a road trip, for the penalty of having a longer drive - at least I won't be completely exhausted when I reach my destination. It's not like I'm in a huge hurry to be anywhere. If you are, then there are better alternatives than driving which tend to be much faster.

Supercharging is free for Tesla, and I bet even a Bolt will be able to use CHAdeMO stations for fast charging, likely free as well (but TBD).
Click to expand...
Not just iron bladder.. Clots in your legs that go in your brain or lungs.
My dad got that.. Not much driving, no more than 3 hours.. Luckily it did not go to the brain or lungs, it just dissolved. It was a hcultural BTW.
Time is money blah blah blah, real men drive with depends have to gas up like a NASCAR pit stop and have a triple dose of heparin and aspirin for clots. Time is money arrrggggg.
I understand it's a cultural thing... Just funny how it is acceptable to drive endless hours though, again cultural you know no fast trains so driving for hours is OK charging for a while, ohhh book time is money blah blah blah.
 
Uvaman2 said:
Not just iron bladder.. Clots in your legs that go in your brain or lungs.
My dad got that.. Not much driving, no more than 3 hours.. Luckily it did not go to the brain or lungs, it just dissolved. It was a hcultural BTW.
Time is money blah blah blah, real men drive with depends have to gas up like a NASCAR pit stop and have a triple dose of heparin and aspirin for clots. Time is money arrrggggg.
I understand it's a cultural thing... Just funny how it is acceptable to drive endless hours though, again cultural you know no fast trains so driving for hours is OK charging for a while, ohhh book time is money blah blah blah.
Click to expand...
Jeez I meant huge clot. Not that jumble.
 
Sufu said:
Again, you are talking about the occasional road trip. Yes the trip takes longer than a ICE that does NOT stop at all, but I don't know anyone who is going to drive ~1100 miles, or approx ~17 hours of driving or more with traffic, without taking a break at around 65mph.

Your point that you waste a few hours of charging is moot - you will have to stop on an ICE at one point or another unless you have an iron bladder and travel alone. At least on a Tesla, you aren't filling up at $30 or $40 bux a pop for a full tank of gas every few hours. I'd rather save the few hundred bucks spent in gas on a road trip, for the penalty of having a longer drive - at least I won't be completely exhausted when I reach my destination. It's not like I'm in a huge hurry to be anywhere. If you are, then there are better alternatives than driving which tend to be much faster.

Supercharging is free for Tesla, and I bet even a Bolt will be able to use CHAdeMO stations for fast charging, likely free as well (but TBD).
Click to expand...

Several problems with your example here.

1) 65mph? Ok Grandpa. I'm not driving anywhere near that slow. I actually make the trip between Rochester NY and Atlanta Ga fairly regularly and it is around that distance.

2) The assumption that the super charger stations will remain free is niaeve. It is only so because they are trying to build it up and get people on board. It will NOT remain free.

3) I would rather spend a few hundred bucks in gas on a road trip and Actually get there the same day and not the next day. What you guys keep forgetting is the 30 minutes at a super charger only gets you 80% and on a long trip like that 80% is a heavily reduced ranked and is going to result in far more stops and Far more downtime than an ICE.

4) Having to stop for a quick stretch and fuel a couple times with an ICE is not the same as being forced to stop for 30 minutes+.A typical fuel/restroom/snack stop takes me 5 minutes tops. I put the pump in and start it then I go into the store. By the time I've gone pee and grabbed a drink and some food it is finished and I'm back in the car and down the road again. At this point I've stretched plenty, got the circulation going well enough that there are no threats of bloodclots or other silly things you guys suggest that require just absolute inactivity for way more than a few hours. I can literally stop multiple times on this trip and still not hit the same period of time a single stop is forced on the EV.

Actually let's break down the numbers a bit further using the 1100 mile trip.

Tesla stated range on a full charge is 265 miles.on 80% it is around 200 miles. Now here is the rub. Even Musk has stated outright that constantly charging to 100% causes degredation of the batteries and the Tesla should only be regularly charged between 50%-80%. https://my.teslamotors.com/de_CH/forum/forums/battery-charge-limit On their forums as I don't remember where the original quote is. So reality is Tesla is in fact a 200 mile car. But for argument I'll start with 265 and everything else being 200.

1100-265 = 835 miles assuming perfect conditions and a super charger exactly there. That's one 30 minute stop. Now you have to stop every 200 miles which is 5 more times at 30 minutes a pop. So that is 6 total stops at 30 minutes a stop. Congrats you just added 3 hours to your trip. Meanwhile while you are still stuck in your car and a hotel, I'm already long at my destination enjoying time with my family, having showered, ate and had plenty of time to do things.

So now we have to talk about the value of your time. Now you aren't going to convince me that someone who drives a $60,0000 car doesn't understand the value of their time. I don't drive anywhere near a $60,000 car and I put a value on mine. The value on my time is on par with what I earn at my job which happens to be around $35/hr. So at that rate you are spending about $105 just in time because time IS a resource.

Now let's talk about the price of gas on my end. I'll even assume that I start the trip on an empty tank, a limitation I didn't put on the Tesla despite the fact that you are charging off your home grid and it cost you around the same as my tank of gas.I get around 350 miles off a tank and it takes me $30 to fill up. So that comes to 3.14 tanks or I'll just round up to 4 tanks for argument purposes. So I'm going to spend $120 on gas total and honestly part of that is going to carry me back so that is neither here nor there. But the reality is at WORST I'm going to spend $15 more in money and save time over the Tesla driver. Couple that with the fact that I spent 1/3 what they did on the car as a whole and suddenly the whole financial argument for EV's is just tossed right out the window.


So lets cut the bullshit why don't we? EV ownership is sort of like gun ownership. There really isn't a good argument for it outside "I like them and want to own it". It isn't a very good argument, but it's all you have and there is nothing wrong with it. You like an EV, that is Great! Lets quit trying to pretend they are better for the environment, cheaper to operate or better than ICE cars in any meaningful way. They aren't and likely won't be for a very long time. At present they are a novelty and nothing more. Certainly I do thank the early adopters for putting money into this novelty in the hopes that it will turn into something great one day. Right now though that day is not here. For now though it is just a really expensive niche toy.
 
To the above..sad times, was typing fast, bunch of typos and hit submit before spell checking.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
2) The assumption that the super charger stations will remain free is niaeve. It is only so because they are trying to build it up and get people on board. It will NOT remain free.
Click to expand...

They would be facing a class action lawsuit if they did start charging, because people paid for the Supercharger access upfront with the claim that it would be free forever.

3) I would rather spend a few hundred bucks in gas on a road trip and Actually get there the same day...
Click to expand...

No one is trying to force you into an EV. Obviously they aren't for you.

But for people who use their car mainly for commuting they can be fine. If they get the urge to drive coast to coast, they can rent a car. People rent all the time. The biggest road trip I ever did with friends, we all had cars, but we rented a minivan to just to have more space. We didn't see renting a different vehicle as somehow making our cars unworkable.

Renting a vehicle with different capability is just a reasonable thing to do.

Or since most homes have more than one car, use a different car for road trips.

Stop acting like not being suitable for cross country racing, means EVs are dead in the water.

Now let's talk about the price of gas on my end. I'll even assume that I start the trip on an empty tank, a limitation I didn't put on the Tesla despite the fact that you are charging off your home grid and it cost you around the same as my tank of gas.I get around 350 miles off a tank and it takes me $30 to fill up. So that comes to 3.14 tanks or I'll just round up to 4 tanks for argument purposes. So I'm going to spend $120 on gas total and honestly part of that is going to carry me back so that is neither here nor there. But the reality is at WORST I'm going to spend $15 more in money and save time over the Tesla driver.
Click to expand...

Must be that new Troll Math.

It costs you $30 to go 350 miles. That would $16.38 in a Tesla if you charged it on home grid. $30 is not around the same is as $16:38. It's an 83% increase for gas.

Skip the rounding, because you seem to have trouble with that.
To go 1100 Miles (based on the above)
Your Car: = $94.20
Tesla Grid: = $51.43
Grid (250)/Supercharger(850) = $11.70

So for the trip gas is $94.20.
Tesla will be from $11.70 to 51.43, depending on supercharger availability after first grid charge at home.

So it will cost you between $42.77 and $82.50 more in fueling costs. Not sure how you get $15 as the Worst case, but I don't understand how Troll Math works.
 
Snowdog said:
They would be facing a class action lawsuit if they did start charging, because people paid for the Supercharger access upfront with the claim that it would be free forever.



No one is trying to force you into an EV. Obviously they aren't for you.

But for people who use their car mainly for commuting they can be fine. If they get the urge to drive coast to coast, they can rent a car. People rent all the time. The biggest road trip I ever did with friends, we all had cars, but we rented a minivan to just to have more space. We didn't see renting a different vehicle as somehow making our cars unworkable.

Renting a vehicle with different capability is just a reasonable thing to do.

Or since most homes have more than one car, use a different car for road trips.

Stop acting like not being suitable for cross country racing, means EVs are dead in the water.



Must be that new Troll Math.

It costs you $30 to go 350 miles. That would $16.38 in a Tesla if you charged it on home grid. $30 is not around the same is as $16:38. It's an 83% increase for gas.

Skip the rounding, because you seem to have trouble with that.
To go 1100 Miles (based on the above)
Your Car: = $94.20
Tesla Grid: = $51.43
Grid (250)/Supercharger(850) = $11.70

So for the trip gas is $94.20.
Tesla will be from $11.70 to 51.43, depending on supercharger availability after first grid charge at home.

So it will cost you between $42.77 and $82.50 more in fueling costs. Not sure how you get $15 as the Worst case, but I don't understand how Troll Math works.
Click to expand...

You apparently have zero reading comprehension..go back and read what I actually wrote and try again. Your entire post is invalid.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
You apparently have zero reading comprehension..go back and read what I actually wrote and try again. Your entire post is invalid.
Click to expand...

It's pretty clear cut that you are just Trolling with bad assumptions and bad math to make your case.
 
Draax said:
I have never understood this argument ... "some other machine or some other country pollutes more so I am not even going to try to reduce emissions".
Click to expand...

I have never understood this argument ... "some politicians want industry standards changed to suit their view of the world so let's focus on that rather than on making the car according to our own goals and ambitions*

Remember when Henry Ford revolutionized the mass production of automobiles because President Wilson ordered it? Oh wait...
 
Stiletto said:
I have never understood this argument ... "some politicians want industry standards changed to suit their view of the world so let's focus on that rather than on making the car according to our own goals and ambitions*

Remember when Henry Ford revolutionized the mass production of automobiles because President Wilson ordered it? Oh wait...
Click to expand...

Remember when the auto industry revolutionized safety technology on their own due to market forces, without the government interfering? Oh wait...

The future of energy is a public safety and public health issue. Making advances in nascent electric vehicle technology has basically no payoff for car manufacturers without government intervention.
 
tybert7 said:
Zero.

Zero vs over 8 hours of time spent getting to and filling up throughout the year.
Click to expand...
What about adding all the time needed to plug in and unplug a charger. Even 30 s for each event, that also adds up over a year.
 
kumquat said:
Remember when the auto industry revolutionized safety technology on their own due to market forces, without the government interfering? Oh wait...

The future of energy is a public safety and public health issue. Making advances in nascent electric vehicle technology has basically no payoff for car manufacturers without government intervention.
Click to expand...

haha..." basically no payoff for car manufacturers without government intervention"...said the Sandinista leftist...
 
Snowdog said:
It's pretty clear cut that you are just Trolling with bad assumptions and bad math to make your case.
Click to expand...

It's pretty clear you didn't read and are just making wild assumptions and troll accusations without a shred of actual proof.
 
kumquat said:
Remember when the auto industry revolutionized safety technology on their own due to market forces, without the government interfering? Oh wait...
Click to expand...

Um, they did. If you think the government changed much as a result of Nader's "Unsafe At Any Speed" claims that turned out to be BS when actually tested, you're mistaken.

The future of energy is a public safety and public health issue.
Click to expand...

Okay, I'm sick of everything being a public health issue. Alternative energy is a public health issue. Gun control is a public health issue. Immigration is a public health issue. The newspeak in today's world is out of control.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
It's pretty clear you didn't read and are just making wild assumptions and troll accusations without a shred of actual proof.
Click to expand...

The proof is in my post. You make nonsense claims like charging costs about the same as gas. Yet for a car like yours, gas actually costs about double that electricity does for an EV.
 
Snowdog said:
The proof is in my post. You make nonsense claims like charging costs about the same as gas. Yet for a car like yours, gas actually costs about double that electricity does for an EV.
Click to expand...

That's the point, there is no proof in your post because you DID NOT READ MINE. I mean if you want to keep making yourself look like a moron, more power to you. I'll give you a hint

So now we have to talk about the value of your time. Now you aren't going to convince me that someone who drives a $60,0000 car doesn't understand the value of their time. I don't drive anywhere near a $60,000 car and I put a value on mine. The value on my time is on par with what I earn at my job which happens to be around $35/hr. So at that rate you are spending about $105 just in time because time IS a resource.
Click to expand...

That is just one of the many parts of my post that you completely glossed over that makes your entire post come across as pure rubbish. Now unless you want to continue making a fool out of yourself, Go back and read the entire thing or shut your mouth.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
That's the point, there is no proof in your post because you DID NOT READ MINE. I mean if you want to keep making yourself look like a moron, more power to you. I'll give you a hint



That is just one of the many parts of my post that you completely glossed over that makes your entire post come across as pure rubbish. Now unless you want to continue making a fool out of yourself, Go back and read the entire thing or shut your mouth.
Click to expand...

You are just trying to troll this thread now. Just let it go. EVs are not for everyone right now for various reasons.
 
Snowdog said:
The proof is in my post. You make nonsense claims like charging costs about the same as gas. Yet for a car like yours, gas actually costs about double that electricity does for an EV.
Click to expand...

Electricity is generally much cheaper than the average rates. If you charge at home, it just makes so much sense to go on a ToD plan, so then when I charge I do it on off-peak rates. Unless you live in CA where off-peak rates are like avg nation rates I think, but then solar could help there.
 
SLee said:
What about adding all the time needed to plug in and unplug a charger. Even 30 s for each event, that also adds up over a year.
Click to expand...

3 hours a year vs over 8 for gasoline around town.

Even that 1100 mile trip at 2 hours of downtime would need to be tripled per year to overtake the lack of a time sink for electric.

Not that it matters, no one actually cares about that. This is more to swat away that the charge time is such a crippling negative for electric. It's not.
 
Stiletto said:
Okay, I'm sick of everything being a public health issue. Alternative energy is a public health issue. Gun control is a public health issue. Immigration is a public health issue. The newspeak in today's world is out of control.
Click to expand...
Ummm those are public health issues .... getting upset at facts is curious.
 
Sufu said:
You are just trying to troll this thread now. Just let it go. EVs are not for everyone right now for various reasons.
Click to expand...

Newsflash kiddo, a criticizing a fundamental problem with something is not trolling. I pointed out some problems with EV's and what it would take to make them viable on a mass market level. The conversation turned into a discussion about long trips and I pointed out that you can't just consider paper stats when it comes to long trips. I also pointed out something extremely important in that time is a resource that must be considered if you are talking about a particularly long trip since some wanted to pretend time wasn't. That isn't trolling bud, that is looking at the big picture and attempting to consider "All" facts, not just cherry picked ones. As for the comments from snow, he completely glossed over half my post then acted confused as to where my numbers came from when it stated precisely in my post where. So he ended up with a post filled with jibberish attempting to refute something I didn't even say.

I've stated over and over that I have no problems with the concept of EV's. However if they are going to become a mass market vehicle that replaces ICE. Then there are certain hurdles they need to overcome. Being a fanboy and pretending those problems don't exist and trying to blindly defend them does not help a product improve.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top