What is tech support coming to?

[kronchev]

Buy D-link Free phone support last time I checked and no nasty backdoors

that made no sense but i will vouch for D-link's awesome RMA policy, they sent back the newer revision of my router

 

[Cardboard Hammer]

So you think its fair that us US citizens who do tech work get the shaft because other countries are suffering? You do know this is one of the many reasons why unemployment is so high in the US, right?

How would preventing companies from taking advantage of cheaper labor sources be fair?

This I agree with. Its because of politicians thinking the rest of the world needs help, that we should suffer because of it. I say, we mind our own, and let the other countries deal with their problems.

Hmm? Companies taking advantage of cheaper labor in other countries will help out the other countries, but it's certainly not the objective of those companies doing outsourcing.

"We are the USA and we DESERVE better than everyone else" isn't a particularly healthy attitude either.

Everyone in the world is connected to some degree or another, whether you like it or not. If your foot got gangrene, would your brain think "that's the foot's problem, not mine"? Ultimately, the problem of the foot will kill the brain if it goes unresolved.

Why should YOU have a particular job, as opposed to a person in India? What have you done to deserve it more than the other person?

With all that is happening today with the US basically bullying everyone around, thanks to GW, I'm even suprised we get the outsourcing we get.

What, you only take money from sources you like?

 

[Nazo]

Speaking of tech support woes. Once, back when I had a creative labs soundcard, a problem started where it would play sound only on one side. At first I had no idea what was going on, so I asked tech support. I gave them every peice of information I could think of, including what port settings, irq, etc and informing them of all I tried to fix it, including the obvious changing of PCI ports. For about 4 weeks I put up with mono audio driving me positively insane and just when I decided they were too important to bother even answering one customer with a simple problem, I finally get a response. Guess what the response said. "Try changing your IRQ and if that doesn't work, try moving the card to a different PCI slot."

Needless to say, I didn't bother to respond. As much as I would have liked to vent my feelings about that mess, it just wasn't worth waiting 4 weeks to do it. Shortly after that, the soundcard screwed up the rest of the way and I couldn't even boot the PC with it in there, so I went and bought a real soundcard (eg not creative labs.) I've had similar experiences with other tech supports such as getting automated responses that say "do not reply to this e-mail" and neglect to include an address you CAN respond to and even some that just plain refused to respond at all.

Yeah, I guess it's worth paying a little bit more just to be able to get the occasional ACTUAL help. Or at the very least, someone who even reads what I told them... Most of them just use some really cheapo keyword system that just sees words like "problem" "sound" and a few other ultra-generic words and then use a canned response without even reading it. Even the few who do "read" them rarely actually pay attention.

 

[Phoenix86]

Technology should work, like their TVs and microwaves.

and cars, air conditioners, dishwashers, washers/dryers. Of course when those break, out comes the yellow pages and the check book... What's the difference?



I simply don't understand why people want a home network, with 3 PCs and won't pay a dime to support it. Yet when their car needs an oil change...

 

[JSClark]

How would preventing companies from taking advantage of cheaper labor sources be fair?

Again, look at our unemployment rate. I know that the IT field isn't the only field that is suffering, but it does contribute quite a bit. I feel as though that we get shafted because we are trying to help other countries that are just as worthy as coming of age when it comes to our advances. What other countries face is a totally different government that dampens that greatly, but is that our problem? no. So why should we get shafted because of other countries' problems?

"We are the USA and we DESERVE better than everyone else" isn't a particularly healthy attitude either.

Where did I imply that in any of my statements?

Everyone in the world is connected to some degree or another, whether you like it or not. If your foot got gangrene, would your brain think "that's the foot's problem, not mine"? Ultimately, the problem of the foot will kill the brain if it goes unresolved.

That may be true, but is it our problem that the Taliban is as demented as they are today? I don't think so. But we are making it our problem, unfortuantely.

Why should YOU have a particular job, as opposed to a person in India? What have you done to deserve it more than the other person?

Once again, where did I imply such an assumption? Sure, I made a comment about it being hard to find a Tech related job, but I didn't say anything about myself being better than another person. I would like to do something Tech related, mainly programming, or maybe DBA Admin., because I am a person that likes to do different things. I am a CAD guy, and I'm bored to death, so I'm looking for a change.

What, you only take money from sources you like?

Unless your talking about my checking account, I have no clue as to what you ask here.

 

[Nazo]

According to my economics class, our current unemployment rate isn't very far from the natural unemployment rate. My teacher kept getting into rants about the way people just look at the numbers and make a big deal about how high they are, using that to their advantage for political and other such things when, in reality, it's not so terribly high.

 

[JSClark]

According to my economics class, our current unemployment rate isn't very far from the natural unemployment rate. My teacher kept getting into rants about the way people just look at the numbers and make a big deal about how high they are, using that to their advantage for political and other such things when, in reality, it's not so terribly high.

Well, I feel there are political reasons... who looks at the economy anymore in the White House? And guaranteed, there will be another economics professor that will say the exact opposite thing. IOW, don't believe everything that he says.

And if my opinion affects you (and whoever else decided to defend against me), thats tough... you have yours, and I have mine.

 

[Cardboard Hammer]

Again, look at our unemployment rate. I know that the IT field isn't the only field that is suffering, but it does contribute quite a bit. I feel as though that we get shafted because we are trying to help other countries that are just as worthy as coming of age when it comes to our advances. What other countries face is a totally different government that dampens that greatly, but is that our problem? no. So why should we get shafted because of other countries' problems?

None of that has anything to do with the question I asked.

Outsourcing isn't about helping other countries, it's about taking advantage of cheap labor. Preventing outsourcing is more like charity than merely allowing it.

The bigger probelm with outsourcing is that companies are doing it in an utterly clueless manner. They're all hopping on the bandwagon, but often not seeing that it doesn't always make sense and that the cost savings can be imaginary.

Where did I imply that in any of my statements?

You imply it with the constant stream of comments along the lines of "it's not fair that they're getting our jobs" and "let them deal with their own problems".

That may be true, but is it our problem that the Taliban is as demented as they are today? I don't think so. But we are making it our problem, unfortuantely.

Considering that they supported "kill all infidels"-style terrorists, ran the country they hijacked in a manner that would foster the development of more such terrorists, and that the vast majority of the population of this country are considered infidels by their sort, yes, it is our problem.

Once again, where did I imply such an assumption? Sure, I made a comment about it being hard to find a Tech related job, but I didn't say anything about myself being better than another person. I would like to do something Tech related, mainly programming, or maybe DBA Admin., because I am a person that likes to do different things. I am a CAD guy, and I'm bored to death, so I'm looking for a change.

You're the one who brought up fairness. Why is it fair that a job that could be done by someone in India for a better ROI should be prevented from being outsourced in order to give you or someone like you the job instead?

Unless your talking about my checking account, I have no clue as to what you ask here.

It was a rhetorical question directly connected to the item it appeared below.

 

[Phoenix86]

The unemployment rate is 5.6%, it's NOT high, but not great. As far as what one prof. vs. another say, you can't argue with the numbers. If it's in the middle, it's in the middle, we aren't sitting at 10% like europe... Actually, that's another good point, if were doing so bad, who's doing so much better?

who looks at the economy anymore in the White House?

Your either not serious about that statement or you need a lot of education. Leave the political dribble out of the thread, your the one that keeps stuffing it in here.

 

[JSClark]

Your either not serious about that statement or you need a lot of education. Leave the political dribble out of the thread, your the one that keeps stuffing it in here.

Fine, whatever... just trying to have a discussion, no need to shun me for my opinions

 

[JSClark]

None of that has anything to do with the question I asked.

Outsourcing isn't about helping other countries, it's about taking advantage of cheap labor. Preventing outsourcing is more like charity than merely allowing it.

The bigger probelm with outsourcing is that companies are doing it in an utterly clueless manner. They're all hopping on the bandwagon, but often not seeing that it doesn't always make sense and that the cost savings can be imaginary.



You imply it with the constant stream of comments along the lines of "it's not fair that they're getting our jobs" and "let them deal with their own problems".




Considering that they supported "kill all infidels"-style terrorists, ran the country they hijacked in a manner that would foster the development of more such terrorists, and that the vast majority of the population of this country are considered infidels by their sort, yes, it is our problem.



You're the one who brought up fairness. Why is it fair that a job that could be done by someone in India for a better ROI should be prevented from being outsourced in order to give you or someone like you the job instead?



It was a rhetorical question directly connected to the item it appeared below.

Sorry, but I am done with this convo. Nothing personal towards you, I just feel I'm being told to fuck off...

 

[Phoenix86]

It's simple, politics = thread lock. News = thread lock.

It's a fine line to walk on a thread like this. Your statements like that are asking for legitimate responses, you know like a list of jobs in the white house that do watch the economy, or the GW statement about outsourcing.

It's gone this long because the thread IS keeping topic to outsourcing and tech support, without igniting a political storm. Honestly I'm surprised it's still open (and happy).

No ones is telling your fuck off.

BTW, we may all have opinions, but that doesn't mean we are right. I could be of the opinion that the sky is red. If proven otherwise, as a reasonable person, I should agree and change my position. You should learn the same. Like your 'unemployment is high' statements, sure that can be your opinion, but as a matter of fact and history, it's wrong...

 

[Cardboard Hammer]

Sorry, but I am done with this convo. Nothing personal towards you, I just feel I'm being told to fuck off...

No problem. That sentiment isn't being expressed by me. FWIW, I found your initial response to me to be tangential and adversarial.

 

[Cardboard Hammer]

To flip to the other side of the economy coin...

If the economy were truly weak, would there even be any outsourcing? Countries with obviously weaker economies aren't jumping on the outsourcing trend. The kind of work being outsourced is somewhat drudge work. If you're having trouble scraping together money to buy food, are you going to spend money to have someone else do your dishes and sweep your floors? Perhaps the outsourcing trend, though misguided in certain ways, is an indicator that the US does have a solid economy.

 

[Phoenix86]

BMW outsourced it's production TO the US. Of course, you don't read about that side of outsourcing...

Since it's all labor cost you have to remember the US doesn't have the higest cost of labor in the world, some people look at us as the 'cheaper' labor.

 

[Cardboard Hammer]

Interesting about BMW. Not too surprising though, on further consideration. The more socialist countries, such as Germany, do tend to be expesive when it comes to labor, plus there's a surplus of skilled autoworkers here, among other consideration.

Interesting, too, on how underreported that kind of thing is, but even less surprising.

 

[BB Gun]

Honda in Ohio
Toyota in California
Mercedes in Alabama
etc
etc

BB

 

[Nazo]

The unemployment rate is 5.6%, it's NOT high, but not great.

I don't remember my class well, but, wasn't the natural unemployment rate somewhere in the 5 percentile range? I would swear that it was... I'm sorry if I'm remembering wrong, just it was last year or so and I half slept through that particular class. Whatever it is, maybe we aren't at an all time low (it's possible to go below the "natural" rate since it's an estimate, just rare) unemployment is actually far better than the politicians who are using their job increase plans to get voted would like you to think.

Don't forget, unemployment includes people between jobs, even if truly looking, and people who are unable to work as well.

 

[Wixard]

I also used to work at the sony plant near where i live. Although a portion has moved to mexico.

My problem isnt with cheap labor, or indians. Im more concerned about worker rights in those countries than i am the loss of jobs. it seems many companies, whether IT or not have no care that the people making their goods suffer.

For the IT side of things, a large company is far better employing leaders who have worked their way up the chain. From tech support to head of tech support, to head of sales, etc etc.

Bringing in leaders who dont know how things work below them cant possibly help. It can only hurt. That pool of talent is lost. And you're forced to import people from other companies or fields, which essentially removes the core from the company. That means, that instead of just promoting someone, who then is likely to become loyal, and who obviously is aware of worker issues and duties below them, you need to hire someone who knows little about what goes on below (or above) them. That person then either needs time to learn how the company works, or goes on about his job with no idea. Why are techs important to a company?

Well, they are towards the bottem of the totem pole (low pay). They know about the product the company sells, they deal with the companies customers day in and day out. They learn the workings at the lower end of the company. Essentially you end with tech literate, people persons (obviously some will be weeded out) And out of this pool you can draw the higher talent. That pool in the long run should save a company more than outsourcing whether its to india or america.

 

[Snugglebear]

I don't remember my class well, but, wasn't the natural unemployment rate somewhere in the 5 percentile range? I would swear that it was... I'm sorry if I'm remembering wrong, just it was last year or so and I half slept through that particular class. Whatever it is, maybe we aren't at an all time low (it's possible to go below the "natural" rate since it's an estimate, just rare) unemployment is actually far better than the politicians who are using their job increase plans to get voted would like you to think.

Don't forget, unemployment includes people between jobs, even if truly looking, and people who are unable to work as well.

Unemployment doesn't include people not actively looking for a job. The survey is simple, calls are made to a couple thousand households and the people are asked a couple questions - are you working? if not, are you actively looking for a job? If they answer yes to the first question, even if they're biochem PhD's working at McDonalds, they're considered employed. If they're not actively looking for a job, be it because they're in school, being a homemaker, being depressed about looking for jobs, etc., they're considered outside the labor force and not unemployed. Thus you have a big problem with the unemployment survey underrepresenting unemployment, and not even taking into account underemployment (working at a job below where your training and career path should have you). The natural unemployment rate is about 4-5%, depending who you ask. I've seen some good evidence from a number of economists suggesting that unemployment, when adjusted for people taking a break from active job seeking and considering underemployment as unemployment, is more like 8-10%. Things are improving, but we've got a ways to go.

Now, back on track, people expect technology to work. Cars they can understand breaking because they're old devices that haven't changed much (to the layman) for a century. They still have wheels, brakes, and an engine to make it go. They can understand it being a mechanical device that gets beat to hell and requires maintenance. However, computers & computer firms have billions in R&D, stock valuations, and lots of flashy crap, including ads talking about how high tech is going to save the world from problem X. All that leads people to believe that the smartest people in the world are working on them and ought have all the bugs worked out. It's the same thing with NASA and rocketry. People just don't get how rockets explode or shuttles are lost with all the money and brainpower spent on the problems. They just don't comprehend the problems and systems to deal with or otherwise solve them. All they see is flashy stuff, suave salesmen/marketers, and things that look like VCRs and so ought to work like them.

 

[Stiletto One]

Honda in Ohio
Toyota in California
Mercedes in Alabama
etc
etc

BB

Oy. Anyone remember protectionism and such, where the gov't tried to keep foreign companies out of the US so that our own companies could compete?

Yeah, that was a bad idea. We got expensive and shitty cars because of it. And when we opened it up, GM and Ford got hit HARD until they stopped making shitty cars.

Anyway, on outsourcing: in IT, it doesn't have a huge effect on the small contractors who actually provide personal support (hell, I'm working for one as a summer job; fun stuff), because it's physically impossible to outsource the guy you call up to come in and Fix Stuff. Phone support's always sucked anyway, so I'm relatively apathetic about losing unskilled IT jobs (ie phone support) to other countries. As for companies' local help desks, I haven't heard so much about their getting outsourced, but that just strikes me as silly—someone else chime in about that.

Now programming is a crazy one. EVERYONE bitches and whines about how our jobs are going overseas, no? Well, it depends on how you define "jobs". If it's the kind of programming where they tell you what to program and you do it (like, "write something that will send and receive packets with X data structure"), yeah, those are going out. But the kind where you have to think, where the programmers sit down with the idea people and figure out wtf the idea people want and THEN figure out how to do it...nope. Those are staying, and it's a growing field last I checked.

The threat of outsourcing is a bit overstated in the computers job market, IMO.

Oh yeah, when's the last time you heard anyone complain about how almost all of our computers are physically assembled in, like, Malaysia?

Linky. This man speaks truth, when he isn't just ranting for fun.

 

[JSClark]

Now programming is a crazy one. EVERYONE bitches and whines about how our jobs are going overseas, no? Well, it depends on how you define "jobs". If it's the kind of programming where they tell you what to program and you do it (like, "write something that will send and receive packets with X data structure"), yeah, those are going out. But the kind where you have to think, where the programmers sit down with the idea people and figure out wtf the idea people want and THEN figure out how to do it...nope. Those are staying, and it's a growing field last I checked.

now THIS is something I like to hear! Considering I'm going back to school for CompSci next Fall, I'm hoping this really picks up by the time I graduate.

 

[Joe Six Pack]

And thanks to outsourcing, people like me are always gonna have a hard time finding jobs... tech support or programming..

Thanks Pres. Bush

It has nothing to do with Pres. Bush It has to do with the global economy we are in. If a company can get the same a job cheaper somewhere else its going to do it.

 

[JSClark]

It has nothing to do with Pres. Bush It has to do with the global economy we are in. If a company can get the same a job cheaper somewhere else its going to do it.

Dude, read above. I'm not getting back into this...

 

[Joe Six Pack]

Great answers. I guess no one really answered what I was looking for.

Would you pay more for a product to get better customer service and a better warranty?

I am not too sure I would. I will pay more for a better reliable product. If the "product" was a crappy POS that breaks down all the time and has a great warranty I wouldn’t be happy due to the inconvenience of having something broke that I have to wait to get repaired. If its built and designed right the first time the customer would never have to call customer service. These days’ companies ship their products out and let the customers be the beta tester for them and that’s just pure wrong.

Besides if I want questions answered about some product I’ll just come to the hardocp boards and ask the people here

 

[Joe Six Pack]

Dude, read above. I'm not getting back into this...

Just responding to an ignorant comment.

Joe

 

[lentic]

Personally i don't really care about tech support. Mostly because i never really use it to solve problems. I have other ways of coming up w/ a answer and if worse comes to worse i just replace said old part that is messed up because its usually about time anyways or i RMA it. However, the few times i do have to call up tech support it is usually for specifications of certain components on namebrand computers ie. (dell, gateway, sony, hp...ect.) The fact that they charge 20 dollars or more to ask not a long drawn out question of how to solve a problem, no a simple (how fast is the IDE controller in (laptop) so i know if its worth while to put in a 7200RPM HHD). Then since they don't even know what a IDE controller is they tell u its on their website even though u have already been there and its not. This has happened to me a couple of times .... I wish companys would help u out a little bit and give u a full spec sheet on ur comp either on their website or in the papers that come w/ it

 

[AR]

Personally i don't really care about tech support. Mostly because i never really use it to solve problems. I have other ways of coming up w/ a answer and if worse comes to worse i just replace said old part that is messed up because its usually about time anyways or i RMA it. However, the few times i do have to call up tech support it is usually for specifications of certain components on namebrand computers ie. (dell, gateway, sony, hp...ect.) The fact that they charge 20 dollars or more to ask not a long drawn out question of how to solve a problem, no a simple (how fast is the IDE controller in (laptop) so i know if its worth while to put in a 7200RPM HHD). Then since they don't even know what a IDE controller is they tell u its on their website even though u have already been there and its not. This has happened to me a couple of times .... I wish companys would help u out a little bit and give u a full spec sheet on ur comp either on their website or in the papers that come w/ it

Wow, old thread.

If they offer a 7200RPM HD for sale with their system online, it supports it, if not, it doesn't. That's the general Dell rule. And it does say online in their Tech Specs. Most questions or similar items can be found in their online database resolutions, too.

Most people on this forum do not use tech support unless they need an RMA or other replacement from a large company. Yes, this is an overeneralization.

 

[HiDDeN sTaSh]

lol that reminds of comcast tech support it took them over a month to get my internet running all because they didnt give me the virtual tech cd... in which i called them bout 20 times and was on the phone wit these ppl for a good 20 hours all together and they couldnt even speak str8 english...

anyways it took about a month for them to come out and complete my installation and they even charged me 50 bucks to come out and do something they forgot to do in the first place


I dont like tech support they cant even get ppl that can speak clearly
next time i call im going to have a translator around so i can understand whats up


oh yeah keep in mind this was over a year ago.... BOOOOOO COMCAST

 

[wallijonn]

the problem with outsourcing is that the coporations all say that it is done to stay competitive. well if everyone does it it levels the playing field where it no longer has any advantage.

Last I heard IT courses are down 25% across all universities. It is looked at as a dead end.

Wall street won't listen until all the MBA jobs are outsourced. After all it is just a virtual world anyway - so why not have your brokerage firm overseas? What difference does it make?

Some DBMS admins think that they are immune - but all that a DBMS admin overseas needs is a password and an account. Their jobs can be outsourced also.

In the realm of hardware you will soon see network connections being made from the BIOS / DOS screen. All that will be necessary will be an onboard DSU/CSU chip.

I've been out of work for 3 years now. Time to become an electrician, plumber or carpenter. I don't think I'd make a good lawyer or doctor. Being an MBA is out, also.

Hard times will be coming to America. Outsourcing is here to stay. And WalMArt still only pays $6.50 an hour with no health insurance.

As for HP, I believe that they have always charged $29.99 for a support call.

I haven't had too much success with email support, either. I've had more success with forums such as this one. Thnak goodness for google search.

But it's not something that mom & pop are privy to. They basically want an appliance which just works. Guess someone will come out with a console type PC which can be connected to a monitor and has software on ROMs.

As to Dell, I hear that they are recalling their corporate support and re-instating it in the States. Coreporate America has a fat wallet and can easily walk away from any other corporation that won't support it. Corporate America started the outsourcing trend though - again, to "save" money. All that it will take is new tax laws. The medical feld is another matter. Corporations went to outsourcing so that they wouldn't have to pay for medical insurance. So they hired consultants... and outsourcing is the outcome.

Will tech support get better as time goes on? I hope so. Until then we're left with the tech support forums on the internet.

 

[lentic]

Wow, old thread.

If they offer a 7200RPM HD for sale with their system online, it supports it, if not, it doesn't. That's the general Dell rule. And it does say online in their Tech Specs. Most questions or similar items can be found in their online database resolutions, too.

Most people on this forum do not use tech support unless they need an RMA or other replacement from a large company. Yes, this is an overeneralization.

My bad i forgot to state that I was talking about a laptop ..... didn't think to include that i guess that could be important info

 

[versello]

I work for one of the richest organizations in the world and they're outsourcing this December / January, so I'll either end up working here still under new management or everything will go to Ohio or Canada, yay!

 

[Phoenix86]

I work for one of the richest organizations in the world and they're outsourcing this December / January, so I'll either end up working here still under new management or everything will go to Ohio or Canada, yay!

Quit before you train your replacement, seriously... I was in a similar case, don't do a 'knowledge transfer' if you see the writing on the wall. GL.

 

[EricDawg]

I had a simple question on where to find documentation for my Netgear router (since NONE came with it) so I submitted a question online/email. 10 days later they replied back with just a sentence of garbage. Basically nothing. A week afterthat I get an email from some guy in the US following up on the service I got and if it was ok etc. I told him what happened and that I'm STILL WAITING FOR AN ANSWER. Nothing. Never heard back from anyone.

The router works great. But you're on your own for any help at all.

I WOULD PAY MUCH MORE FOR ANYTHING TO KEEP MY NEIGHBORS EMPLOYEED AND GET SERVICE!!!!!!!!!!

Just yesterday one more neighbor of mine lost her job being outsourced to Philipenis. She takes calls from people looking for help with anything. Finding a hotel, directions, etc. Can you imagine calling looking for a "Bed and Breakfast" in Suquamish? I'm guessing there's a lot of local language that the foreigners are going to boch big time.

As for programming, not it's not just the simple programming tasks being outsourced. I do heavy business analysis/programming for an international company. They're hiring business anlaysts like crazy. These people try to gather all the requirements for the programmers and spit it out in UML. It just doesn't work. I need to sit with the business people and hammer things out after I've prototyped. My projects are always succesful. But you know... this doesn't stop the executives from continuing trying to gear up for outsourcing. That's the scary part.... executives that makes these decisions sadly make most of their decisions on paper.

I wouldn't major in Computer Science. Go the Business/MIS route. The only jobs that will be left will be heavy on the analysis side.

Outsourcing is pure greed and it's ruining this country.

 

[Phoenix86]

I WOULD PAY MUCH MORE FOR ANYTHING TO KEEP MY NEIGHBORS EMPLOYEED AND GET SERVICE!!!!!!!!!!

See this is EXACTLY the problem.

YOU BOUGHT ONE OF THE CHEAPEST MANUFACTURERS PRODUCTS ON THE MARKET. WHY?!?

You vote with your dollars... Why didn't you buy a cisco router, I'm quite sure there are cisco reps who will answer your questions, STAT! Service contract will likely be required. If you want to spend more $ on a product, don't buy the cheapest thing on the market then bitch about how the service sucks.