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Waterpump comparisons

C

Casca

Limp Gawd
Joined
Sep 22, 2005
Messages
275
I tried the search and even found a couple relevent threads from the search via sifting through 10+pages of sales and whatnot threads with the word "pump" in it. You'd think adding words like "comparison" or "water" or "whatever" to it would narrow the search down, but it just expands the result so you get all post with any of those words lol.


My understanding is this Alphacool modified Laing Ultra is the best choice right now, but how about if you get it with the larger top so you have a res as well?


And, out of the two choice up there, compared to this MCP655 , what is the better choice?


I will be running dual 2x120rads (possibly add a 3x120 as well...maybe) CPU, NB and GPU blocks, 1 or maybe 2 res (if I go with the MCP355 with the res tops, it will be two res. If I go with the MCP655 or the non-res-top MCP355, it will be one res with 1 inlet and 2 outlets.).

In either case, I will run 2 pumps. I fly in c130's for a living and after going through 4 emergency engine shut down procedures while in the air, I totally believe redundancy is a freaking fantastic idea!
 
The res top sucks... get 2 of the Ultras, they rule. I run 2x of them in series. Better pump and smaller than the 655...
 
why does the res top suck? I have one and i like it, no noise, my temps are good with a bip240 chipset, TDX, maze4
 
The top pump is the best of the three. It kicks arse!

Be sure to get the 18w version.
 
What makes the DDC better than the D5? Flow rate? Head pressure? Both? Let's run a theoretical loop:

Res => pump => Storm => Maze4 GPU => dual 120 rad => Res (.5" ID tubing)

Which would be better and why? I've got a D5 in one of my loops and a CSP-MAG in the other. The MAG has got to go, and I was planning on getting a D5 when I redid the loop...but I've really been hearing people talk up the DDC.
 
basically there are many reasons
- Cathar says ;)
-20ft of head height
-With alpha top much higher flow compared to stock ddc (the original ddc, not the 18watt version, when 1/2" modded is on par with a d5 in a modern loop)
-Relatively low heat dump
-quiet
-small

The 18w ddc with alphacool would be best for the loop you describe
 
Mark305TBI said:
What makes the DDC better than the D5? Flow rate? Head pressure? Both? Let's run a theoretical loop:

Res => pump => Storm => Maze4 GPU => dual 120 rad => Res (.5" ID tubing)

Which would be better and why? I've got a D5 in one of my loops and a CSP-MAG in the other. The MAG has got to go, and I was planning on getting a D5 when I redid the loop...but I've really been hearing people talk up the DDC.
Click to expand...
More head and flow with the alpha top and smaller quieter and less heat dump. Hows that?
 
nikhsub1 said:
More head and flow with the alpha top and smaller quieter and less heat dump. Hows that?
Click to expand...
lmao

I guess that pretty much covers all the bases...
 
True, the DDC Ultra 18W with an aftermarket top like the Alphacool is the best pump on the market. It's nearly 2x better than a D5 and has enough head to power any loop.
 
The D5 (MCP655) is a great pump for the money and has very good performance.
 
pawstar said:
Actually, if you were to get two ultras, you should get the Alpahcool Laing DDC Dual attachement
http://www.performance-pcs.com/catalog/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=201&products_id=20552
Then you would have the ultimate pump :eek: . Better yet, get two of those in series j/k :D
Click to expand...


I just don't like the way it looks:



and if you get any real benefit by having the water flow in from the top, then one of those pumps will not be getting that benefit.

I have two of the DDC 18w plus the alphacool ultra tops on the way. It will be mounted in series, via one pump pumping directly into the CPU block :

Pump 1--> CPU--->NB-->PA120.3 rad--->T-Line----> Pump 2---->GPU--->2xPA120.2 rads--Micro res.

I am very tempted to order a third pump+top and hook that nut-to-butt with the pump that does the CPU.
 
Casca said:
I just don't like the way it looks:
and if you get any real benefit by having the water flow in from the top, then one of those pumps will not be getting that benefit.
...
Click to expand...
For the looks, well each to his/her own. :rolleyes:

As for the performance of side intake for the duo and the one top intake loss it would be interesting so see the actual difference, so maybe if someone does have access to a lot of tubing and an open staircase with like 5+ floors, could measure the head pressure and flow rate. It would be an interesting comparison.

Either way, you still make a good choice with the two alphacool tops + ddc ultras. :)
 
Arcygenical said:
I could never jusfity the performance/price ratio of more than one pump ;)
Click to expand...



I have been reading a bit about people with DDC pumps that did not actually start pumping water on some starts. This could be the earlier pumps and the problem is rectified, but having one pump in your loop is like jumping out of an airplane and relying on a single chute to work. Chances are it will work, but isn't it even a better idea to have a back-up chute just in case? It's not just a price/performance thing to me, it's a "if this thing fails, I can limp along on this other one" and not kill my soon to be $500 video card X 2.

What happens if your one pump fails? What gives out first, your CPU or the vid card? Hopefully the CPU, because that will probably shut the computer down before it really gets damaged, but if it's the vid card, then you will probably fry it.....like everyone else I have read about running a single DDC pump that had the pump not start up.

Think I'll be putting some kind of kill switch in there for if ther is no flow. Hopefully there is a solution that does not hurt flow too much. Probably put a third pump in as well and make it an MPC655 because I can't find many complaints about it failing.
 
While I'm not necessarily advocating dual pumps... one of the only faults with the DDC pumps would seem to be their reliability. I've personally had 2 bad pumps out of 4 and they appeared to die for no particular reason. There are also numerous other reports of them being DOA, or dieing after a short period with no apparent reason. They are also not very robust in that there are also failures due to running them dry for a few seconds, etc. They just are not all that robust.

Even if I didn't need dual pumps in my loop (I do as it is very restrictive and convoluted) I would have a spare on hand because I couldn't live with the downtime associated with RMA'ing pumps even occasionally.

I definitely suggest that if you are using these pumps, either run two in series or have some kind of flow/thermal shutdown built into your system to protect it.
 
Adidas4275 said:
why does the res top suck? I have one and i like it, no noise, my temps are good with a bip240 chipset, TDX, maze4
Click to expand...

I would like to know how you got the air out of it. I have one of my DDC pumps using this res and it is a royal PITA to bleed. Air tends to continually get trapped under the top and then the pump is so damn powerful that it creates a vortex inside the res and the air is constantly being sucked into the loop. Perhaps my problem is that it's not the highest thing in my loop... if it was, then you could just take the cap off and fill it absolutely to the brim and then put the cap back on. Even then, the cap is concave so you can't completely void it of air. I think I also need a better bleeding solution than I have, so that might be part of my problem.

I did some bench testing of flow rates with the res on top and noticed a few thigns:

a) if the res wasn't completely free of air (which as I mentioned above was a PITA) the flow rates would drop dramatically due to cavitation

b) the res reduced flow rate from 12.5 lpm to 11.5 lpm. I had no way to measure pressure so I don't know the effect on that.

c) modding the top by boring out the top inlet on the plexi top to 3/8" (9.5mm) and then putting the res on got flow back up to 12.5 lpm with that config.

If you search over at XtremeSystems you will find lots of more empirical data.

Ultimately, I opted to use dual pumps with one having the res and mod and one with just the stock plexi top. The first pump is more for looks and the second makes up for the drop in performance, allows me to have a convoluted loop with some elbows, etc. and I also gain some redundancy and the ability to keep using my PC if/when I need to RMA one of the pumps.
 
I definitely suggest that if you are using these pumps, either run two in series or have some kind of flow/thermal shutdown built into your system to protect it.
Click to expand...

You should always have some kind of temperature threshold regardless of what cooling method you use. Even if you air cool, fans can die.

Personally, I've been running my DDC 12-18 hours per day for over a year and it has never skipped a beat. However I would recommend that you purchase your DDC and the modded top of your choice separately and install it yourself. Also avoid buying the DDC from performance-pcs at this time.
 
chris.c said:
You should always have some kind of temperature threshold regardless of what cooling method you use. Even if you air cool, fans can die.

Personally, I've been running my DDC 12-18 hours per day for over a year and it has never skipped a beat. However I would recommend that you purchase your DDC and the modded top of your choice separately and install it yourself. Also avoid buying the DDC from performance-pcs at this time.
Click to expand...

Another alternative is to have a flow rate sensor that you can just plug in to a fan header, that way you can always get an early warning, and set the BIOS to shutdown on fan failure. However, with most (all?) sensors the flow rate may suffer a bit if you don't do some modding to ease the restriction or be a little more creative ;)
 
I use Speedfan to monitor my temperatures. If they rise over 51'c, It executes a shut down command. Simple as that.
 
Arcygenical said:
I use Speedfan to monitor my temperatures. If they rise over 51'c, It executes a shut down command. Simple as that.
Click to expand...

Damn, that's really low. I have my cpu at 75 and gpu at 90. That way I can accidentally put a textbook over my intake and not have my system shut off in the middle of a document :p
 
Got my tops:







What I still don't understand is how the res top is a bad performer compared to these tops. I mean, the res top is just this top with the addition of a res on top..... How does having the built in res sitting right on top of this top make it any worse then using this top with the water going into the top inlet via a tube from a res off to side?

This + + =

Now, we can repeat the mod that started it all and plug up the side inlet of that res, and drill in an inlet to its top, if filling up the res from the side really matters much.


How did we come to the conclusion that the res top version was a poor performer? So far, I found people who say this is so, but lots of people just repeat things without actually having any direct experience with it, nor even seeing anything other then word of mouth. Not knocking others opinions, just wanted to see if there was any real data supporting it or the reasoning behind why it is a poorer performer.

EDT: One problem it might have is the damn inlit not working as well as it would if it were being fed by a direct tube connection instead of being the drain for the res.




That drain hole is tiny (1/4"). Yah, can see how a direct tube connection would be better, but probably not by much. How about if we just make that hole bigger......
 
http://h2okoeling.dk/default.asp?site=show.asp&t=5&id=471

2-DDC+%20alle.jpg


Pro = alphacool top
Pro AGB = res top
Basis = stock top

Moral of the story, DON'T GET THE DAMN RES TOP. It doesn't even bleed well.
 
chris.c said:
http://h2okoeling.dk/default.asp?site=show.asp&t=5&id=471

2-DDC+%20alle.jpg


Pro = alphacool top
Pro AGB = res top
Basis = stock top

Moral of the story, DON'T GET THE DAMN RES TOP. It doesn't even bleed well.
Click to expand...





180 GPH x 3.8= 648 LPH/60= 11.4 LPM

Thats 11.4LPM using a DDC 10w pump, not the 18w.



The DDC 10w was moded like this here MOD

All he did was give it a 1/2" diameter inlet via the top pretty much. Looking over the Alphacool top, I am not sure they were actually trying to make the pump perform any better vrs. just trying to make it so you can connect the inlet on top and add some bling to the pump. And the res top, I am really thinking it's just because the hole it drains down through is bottle necking it worse then a 1/2" barb with tubing tapering down to that 1/4" hole would. ...and I realize that ultimately whether barb or res top, it goes through the same hole, but a res sitting directly on top of a 1/4" hole is probably more restricted then if you fed that hole with a tube.

Anyway, I will probably bore out the hole on the top to the size of the threaded part of the hole (sooner or later) and see what happens. I'd imagine pressure would drop and flow would increase...pretty much like how the mod I linked went.

I hear Petra's shop is coming out with a top as well, how much you wanna bet the inlet hole on the top will be 1/2"?

As for the res top, I already have a micro res on order and will just be doing a T-line for the second pump if anything at all. although, if my third pump is a DDC+ , I may just get it with the res top for the looks and take the performance loss (with three DDC+, I really don't think it would matter), because I really believe in redundancy for certain parts and these pumps don't take up much space and isn't too bad for power consumption.
 
well i have the res and top and it is pushing a BIP240, innovatek 120.1, TDX, Maze4, alphacool nf4 chipset block, and i get good temps. when my room is 85*F i get crap temps, but this morning it was actually cool... 65*F and my idle was 35*C at 1.425 so that is fairly good.

also my water temps idle are useually 3*C + of ambient idle and 4*C+ ambient load...

my temps loaded right now are 40*C loaded large FTTs 2x prime. and my ambient is 78*F


so even if the res hurts performance i have fairly good temps..

and it bleeds really well when you put a fillport into the 2nd intake on the top and fill via the fillport and youi loosen the res cap and in literally 2 mins no air in the system... just make sure you close the cap before it overflows :)

I have thought about borring out the inlet from the res.. but then i decided not to incase i ever want to reconfigure my loop w/o the res... i also have a mini res from alphacool sitting on a shelf... so maybe you all can convince me to sell of my res top.


 
chris.c said:
What exaclty is your point?
Click to expand...


That this ghetto mod top on a DDC:






performs the same if not better, than an alphacool top on a DDC+


and that it's probably because it has a 1/2" diameter hole to feed water into the pump vrs. a 1/4" hole.
 
Adidas4275 said:
I have thought about borring out the inlet from the res.. but then i decided not to incase i ever want to reconfigure my loop w/o the res... i also have a mini res from alphacool sitting on a shelf... so maybe you all can convince me to sell of my res top.
Click to expand...


Just bore it out to where the threaded part of the hole is, don't go any farther. The threaded part is 1/2" already, it's just after that it goes down to 1/4" and then into the pump. Bore the smooth 1/4" portion out and leave the threaded part alone. Now you have a 1/2" hole and if you want to decouple, you can install barbs as well. The top is only $29. The mod I linked earlier showed that the PSI dropped a little and the draw on the pump increased a little. How that affects pump life, I don't know, but would lay odds that if you got a DDC+ that would have lasted 5+ years stock, it would still probably last 5+ years modded like this. If you got one of the DDC+ batches that have just been quiting and having start up issues, well, then you're just out of luck.
 
People have already bored it out to 1/2" before.

The res top likely has worse performance due to cavitation, which is not present with the normal alphacool top.

The stock alphacool top still greatly increases flow rate even with the 1/4" opening because it is removing the great restriction before the inlet that the stock 90 degree top has.

And i'm betting the petra top wont be 1/2" because the inlet of the impeller is smaller than 1/2". I'm betting it will match the impeller inlet size, but thats just my guess (though it will be closer to 1/2" than 1/4").

if you want data on some of this stuff check the xtremesystems liquid cooling section, there has been extensive ddc testing over there.
 
okay, well next time i add something to my loop, have a leak, or need to do maintanance i will bore out the inside leaving the threads alone...
 
Casca said:
That this ghetto mod top on a DDC:

performs the same if not better, than an alphacool top on a DDC+
Click to expand...

Uhh, no it doesn't. Look at the pressure of both pumps @ 11LPM. You can't just compare two lines on different graphs without looking at the numbers and come to a conclusion. Infact you shouldn't be comparing graphs from 2 different tests in the first place. Come on, common sense.
 
I have my 2 DDC Ultras running in series with both tops bored out... as discussed here. With the top inlet enlaged to the size of the thread ~1/2", you lose about 1 foot of head but gain a bit of max flow... I did it because I have 2 - if I were running just one I would likely leave it alone.

As for pump failures - I plug the RPM sensors into the MOBO which will display via speedfan. If one of the pumps RPM's drops below 3,000 the system will shutdown on its own, I have tested it by unplugging the RPM wire and it works well. The RPM's of my pumps are ~4550 or so.
 
Saw this on another forum, another top or two for the DDC+ .

German site . Check out the double pump solution they have. Like that one better then what was linked earlier here.















Looks like larger diameter all around. I don't read german at all, but from the pic's would guess the inlet and discharge holes are G1/4" barb thread and stays that diameter instead of tappering down to 1/4" holes like the alphacool. Slosh/vortex plate, can fill res from the top. Nice.

The alphacool top that I have, well the bottem is one thing and the res attaches too it. Probably res was developed as an after thought. The flat surface on the top probably doesn't help the water drain too well. This new top bowls out and if you look at the drain hole they also wollowed it out a little to help it drain better. The damn threaded drain hole on the alphacool top I got probably impedes the water a little. Wonder when we get to see this top in the states or how Petra's top will compare.
 
Casca said:
Looks like larger diameter all around. I don't read german at all, but from the pic's would guess the inlet and discharge holes are G1/4" barb thread and stays that diameter instead of tappering down to 1/4" holes like the alphacool. Slosh/vortex plate, can fill res from the top. Nice.
Click to expand...
Nope same deal. Look at the far right item in the middle picture... that hole is still tiny just like the Ultra top - this is what is bored out on mine. The problem I see with the above top is lots of sloshing of the water.
 
nikhsub1 said:
Nope same deal. Look at the far right item in the middle picture... that hole is still tiny just like the Ultra top - this is what is bored out on mine. The problem I see with the above top is lots of sloshing of the water.
Click to expand...



Really hard to tell from the pic one way or the other I guess. I looked at the far right pic and it seemed to me the front inlet hole was threaded for the G1/4 all the way through. And the swirl (or whatever you'd call it) hole that directs water out of the top is diffinently a larger catch then the alphacool top. And for sloshing, they do have the slosh plate that goes inbetween the bowl halves. Works pretty good in airplane fuel tanks, how well it works here I dunno.


Opened up my DDC+, got lots of little black flakes from the molding they didn't clean and worst noticed this:





That blue wire has 2 strands holding it on. Out of the 15 solder joints I can see, 4 of them are cold soldered and 6 others are questionable. The molding on the part holding the electronics is.......well..like when you put a plastic car/plane model together and you have all the extra plastic on some of the parts that you just shave off...well, like that. It's not too bad, but I expected better.


I opened up my second pump and it looked better then that one. Still a couple questionable solder joints on that as well, but nothing like the first. I wonder if my other pump was put together by a new guy. I don't point out cold solder joints because I am worried about it being more resistent then a propperly soldered joint, but because it is brittle and more likely to break off. No wonder why this pump has reliablity issues.
 
there should be a thread on the laing DCC pumps/mods and stats...

they are becoming really popular and i am sure it would be useful
 
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