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Watercooling Advice for My Sys...

G

GreatestOne

Limp Gawd
Joined
May 15, 2005
Messages
488
Hey all... here is what I know so far (wc noob here) and here is what I would like to know...

It seems all in one solutions are just bad, so I wont go there.... it seems its the general consensus that Danger Den and D-tek are two of the top brands I cant go wrong with.... so unless there is another brand that is obviously better, I'll stick with those since I want to avoid having to read reviews and specs for 5 different type for 10 different companies....

My goal is to achieve the best OC possible, squeeze every mhz I can out of it, for the CPU, GPU, and chipset, and whatever else you think is necessary to complete the cycle... I am thinking if I go watercool, I want to go all out and not have hybrids. I do realize I will still need to run 1-2 of my large fans even with wc. My case has a huge 250mm fan on the SIDE of the case, as well as back to front and top (which I am curently not using), so I may need some airflow advice.

Budget, ah, budget... well... I guess more than I want to spend whatever, I want the best "value." There has to be a point of diminishing return as in anything, ie, I dont care for spending another $100 if it will get me another 50 pts on my 3dmark06 score. But another $15, maybe.

The only changes to my existing specs will be a soon to be possibly a different hard drive config (prob booting off a vraptor and running a RAID5 on side... will hard drives be water cooled as well?) installed E8500 (hoping to get that near 5 ghz, would be sweet) and something like the GTX260 or 280 is black friday is nice to us... the question here is, what do most of u guys do, wc the whole card or just the GPU chip? I am leaning towards jus the chip so future upgradability and simplicity right now, but it seems like a real pain to try to cool the other components of the GPU card, so any advice there would be great.

And finally, is there a "newegg" type of place for wc parts? I am sure there are tons but there has to be 1 or 2 stores that have the best prices, parts, and service that u guys go to regularly....

Anything else u need to know ask me.... thanks!
 
Well then,

First of all the main companies you'd want to look at would be Swiftech, EK and D-TEK (DangerDen is not that good performance wise).

I would wait until you obtain a video card before buying a GPU block (as I recommend EK full cover GPU blocks).

For the CPU I would recommend the Swiftech Apogee GTZ as it is the best performing block on the market and not quite as restrictive as the EK-Supreme. The D-TEK FuZion v2 gives up a good fight but is simply not as good. Cost wise the D-TEK block tends to be around $5 more than the other two.

As for a radiator you would benefit greatly from anything 3x120mm or higher. I generally recommend the Swiftech MCR 320-QP for it's great performance and price.

Pump wise the Laing D5 pumps end up lasting longer but are quite larger than the DDC based pumps. I would recommend a Swiftech MCP655 if it fits your case if not an MCP355 will do :)

Tubing can be either Clearflex or Tygon. Clearflex tends to be nearly as flexible as Tygon but at 1/3rd the price.

Reservoir wise I would recommend the EK Multioption reservoirs. The 100ml version tends to be perfect :).

I've written a guide over here: http://www.xcpus.com/GetDoc.aspx?doc=71&page=1 It's already the most in depth guide available on the web and isn't even near being done. The last page has a bunch of stores you can buy water cooling gear at while the before last page has user (expert) recommendations.

Have a look :)
 
Petra's Tech Shop and Sidewinder Computers are great for WCing parts.

I'd recommend a D-Tek Fuzion v2, EK Supreme, or Swiftech Apogee GTZ waterblock for the CPU, a Swiftech MCW30 for the chipset (make sure this fits, didn't check) with a 2x120 or 3x120 Swiftech QuietPower series radiator, AC Ryan Radgrillz, and a Swiftech MCP655/Laing D5 pump. 7/16" ID Masterkleer tubing over 1/2" barbs. Swiftech mini-reservoir or a t-line.

D-Tek Fuzion GFX 2 for the GPU (fits the 8800GT out of the box and the GT200 series with an adapter plate and screw kit, plus you'll need a different heatsink kit), iandh custom heatsink kit for 8800GT, and a 2x120 or 3x120 Swiftech QuietPower series radiator, AC Ryan Radgrillz, and another Swiftech MCP655/Laing D5 pump, another reservoir or t-line, etc.

Plus 6 120mm fans. Panaflos on a fan controller would be ideal, but Yate Loons are much less expensive and work well.

Figure 15 feet of Masterkleer (leaves some extra for mistakes) $20 or so, $10-15 for misc costs (extra barbs, mounting screws, etc), $30 for t-line materials (2 t-fittings, 2 fillports), $65 for Fuzion v2, $30 for MCW30, $47 for Fuzion GFX 2, $30 for iandh GFX heatsink kit, $100 for 2 3x120 radiators, $50 for 2 3x120 Radgrillz, $150 for 2 Laing D5 Vario pumps, $30 for 6 120mm Yate Loon fans. (or ~$120 for 6 Panaflo 120mms and the necessary fan tails, plus $30 for a fan controller)

Roughly... $600. $730 or so if you go with Panaflo fans. $750 if you go with the Panaflos and reserviors rather than t-lines. Plus $40 or so to swap the GPU block over to a GT200 based card, between the cost of a mounting kit ($5) and a heatsink for it ($30-40).

You sure you still want to go water? ;)
 
(ElMoIsEviL....) Excellent, great info! (I hope, lol..) I wll read your link and hopefully if I have any more questions you'll be around... may i jus ask, r u an enthusiast or do u also install wc parts for clients and other people?
 
GreatestOne said:
(ElMoIsEviL....) Excellent, great info! (I hope, lol..) I wll read your link and hopefully if I have any more questions you'll be around... may i jus ask, r u an enthusiast or do u also install wc parts for clients and other people?
Click to expand...

Both..:p

I build and install for myself and others :)

If you need advice simply ask either on here or over at xcpus.com same username :) I tend to frequent all the major forums (even THG :p).

For the north bridge I generally recommend the Enzotech SNBW-REV.A. It's very flexible and fits nearly all recent motherboards. Plus it looks damn sexy and is completely made of copper (top and bottom). There is also the EK-NB/SB 5. Both are pictured bellow.

snbw_reva_photo1.jpg

EK-NB-SB-5.jpg
 
(silent-circuit...) LOL, holy bajesus... is this why people only wc the cpu??? son of a.... well... i highly doubt I will spend almost $800 right now on top of getting the CPU and GPU upgrade, and have to spend what like 10 hours to get it all right? And then another 5 hours of testing and seeing how far I can push it. Emmmmm... maybe then start with just the CPU and upgrade to the other components over time? Is that ok?
 
You also want to minimize mixing Aluminum with Copper in your loop. It causes severe corrosion. Which is why most blocks now have copper tops and bottoms or a mixture of Delrin and Lexan/Clear Acrylic tops with copper bottoms.
 
GreatestOne said:
(silent-circuit...) LOL, holy bajesus... is this why people only wc the cpu??? son of a.... well... i highly doubt I will spend almost $800 right now on top of getting the CPU and GPU upgrade, and have to spend what like 10 hours to get it all right? And then another 5 hours of testing and seeing how far I can push it. Emmmmm... maybe then start with just the CPU and upgrade to the other components over time? Is that ok?
Click to expand...

That's certainly a valid option. My recommendations would hold for the CPU loop, then, and you could add the GPU loop later if you wanted. I also included enough heat dissipation capacity (large enough radiators) so you could swap out for a quad core CPU or add a second GPU later and not have to replace or add radiators. You can run the GPU and CPU in the same loop, but this means both run hotter due to the extra eat in the loop, so dedicated loops are generally best if you have a sufficiently large case to allow them.
 
ElMoIsEviL said:
You also want to minimize mixing Aluminum with Copper in your loop. It causes severe corrosion.
Click to expand...

Yep I read the same thing before somewhere, so no AL!!!

[silent-circuit]
Ya that whole cost thing was worrying me bec I heard that you can put in a wc sys for like less than $200 but obviously that is a cheap sys i dont want or its a CPU only sys... so basically I would be getting still a robust cooler so I can add more later (which means I will be "wasting" a lot of its potential for the first several months right).. and yes I am def going to run in the same loop, no way am I running separate ones... and I am planning on using this wc for a while, through the next gen of quad processors, so what is the avg realistic active life of these wc systems? Is several years too much to ask?
 
silent-circuit said:
That's certainly a valid option. My recommendations would hold for the CPU loop, then, and you could add the GPU loop later if you wanted. I also included enough heat dissipation capacity (large enough radiators) so you could swap out for a quad core CPU or add a second GPU later and not have to replace or add radiators. You can run the GPU and CPU in the same loop, but this means both run hotter due to the extra eat in the loop, so dedicated loops are generally best if you have a sufficiently large case to allow them.
Click to expand...

I have figured out the following from building various loops when it comes to radiators needed:

Dual core CPU – 1x120mm
Quad core CPU – 2x120mm
G80 or R600 GPU – 2x120mm
G92 or RV670 GPU – 1x120mm
Older GPUs – 1x120mm
 
GreatestOne said:
Yep I read the same thing before somewhere, so no AL!!!

[silent-circuit]
Ya that whole cost thing was worrying me bec I heard that you can put in a wc sys for like less than $200 but obviously that is a cheap sys i dont want or its a CPU only sys... so basically I would be getting still a robust cooler so I can add more later (which means I will be "wasting" a lot of its potential for the first several months right).. and yes I am def going to run in the same loop, no way am I running separate ones... and I am planning on using this wc for a while, through the next gen of quad processors, so what is the avg realistic active life of these wc systems? Is several years too much to ask?
Click to expand...

With Swiftech you're generally good for a while because they tend to release new mounting mechanisms for their blocks when a new socket configuration is released.

As for Radiators you can pretty much rely on current Quad needs when it comes to Nehalem since Nehalem fits within Penryn's current power envelope.
 
ElMoIsEviL said:
I have figured out the following from building various loops when it comes to radiators needed:

Dual core CPU – 1x120mm
Quad core CPU – 2x120mm
G80 or R600 GPU – 2x120mm
G92 or RV670 GPU – 1x120mm
Older GPUs – 1x120mm
Click to expand...

I've run a quad on a 2x120 and was left wanting more heat dissipation capacity, even with a pair of 120mm Panaflos on it, so I put the 3x120 in there. He has a huge case, and it's something like $20 to over all cost, for piece of mind.

The GT200s run stupid hot, at least as bad as the G80s if not worse, so I can easily see need for a 3x120 there. At the moment I'm running a pair of 8800 GTXs on a 2x120 and it's fine at stock, but there's very little OC headroom.

GreatestOne -- once you have a high quality loop set up you can easily get 5, 6 years out of it, just have to occasionally swap blocks for new hardware. This is part of why I so strongly advocate buying more radiator space than you need. There's never such a thing as 'too much'.
 
[ElMoIsEviL]
Great info.. thanks... btw can I ask you, do u do a lot of high end gaming? either way do u really see a performance increase with your RAID0 than with a single raptor or vraptor drive? I heard RAID0 is not all that its cracked up to be for gaming at least. I also do heavy CS3 work.
 
[silent-circuit]
May i ask with all your 3x120's, can u give me some numbers on how your oc went on which CPU/GPU's? I am just curious what is the magnitude of oc we are talking about with your specs, thanks.
 
GreatestOne said:
[ElMoIsEviL]
Great info.. thanks... btw can I ask you, do u do a lot of high end gaming? either way do u really see a performance increase with your RAID0 than with a single raptor or vraptor drive? I heard RAID0 is not all that its cracked up to be for gaming at least. I also do heavy CS3 work.
Click to expand...

You're going to see zero real world return with a RAID0 set up over a single high end 7200RPM drive, nevermind a Velociraptor. The only thing you're doing is slightly reducing load times, it has zero effect on in-game performance.

GreatestOne said:
[silent-circuit]
May i ask with all your 3x120's, can u give me some numbers on how your oc went on which CPU/GPU's? I am just curious what is the magnitude of oc we are talking about with your specs, thanks.
Click to expand...

3.8Ghz out of a E6420 (up from 2.13Ghz stock) and 4.0Ghz out of an X3220 (effectively a Q6600, up from 2.4Ghz stock).

682Mhz core, 1620Mhz shader, 1000Mhz RAM up from 575Mhz core, 1350Mhz shader, 900Mhz RAM on both 8800 GTXs.
 
silent-circuit said:
I've run a quad on a 2x120 and was left wanting more heat dissipation capacity, even with a pair of 120mm Panaflos on it, so I put the 3x120 in there. He has a huge case, and it's something like $20 to over all cost, for piece of mind.

The GT200s run stupid hot, at least as bad as the G80s if not worse, so I can easily see need for a 3x120 there. At the moment I'm running a pair of 8800 GTXs on a 2x120 and it's fine at stock, but there's very little OC headroom.

GreatestOne -- once you have a high quality loop set up you can easily get 5, 6 years out of it, just have to occasionally swap blocks for new hardware. This is part of why I so strongly advocate buying more radiator space than you need. There's never such a thing as 'too much'.
Click to expand...

Obviously we disagree on the radiators needed.

As for never having such a thing as too much, well that's simply not true. The more radiators you use the more restriction you add to the loop and the lower the flow rate. Unless you compensate with more pumps you end up getting diminishing returns.

As for what temps you can expect from a Q6600 (Let's say) at 4GHz with a voltage of 1.45v with a single MCR 220-QP and a Swiftech Apogee GTZ would be around 52C on full load. This is from CoreTemp.
 
GreatestOne said:
[ElMoIsEviL]
Great info.. thanks... btw can I ask you, do u do a lot of high end gaming? either way do u really see a performance increase with your RAID0 than with a single raptor or vraptor drive? I heard RAID0 is not all that its cracked up to be for gaming at least. I also do heavy CS3 work.
Click to expand...

RAID0 is great for loading times when you're within a game such as loading between zones in Warhammer Online :)

RAID0 is mainly useful for Video Encoding, Decoding and moving large files around. It won't speed up games from what I can tell.

I ONLY use RAID0 because all of my data is on my fileserver. I don't recommend it on your main machine which holds your entire data as you're twice as likely to get an HD failure.
 
Any of u guys find the need to wc your hd's? Or is the case fans enough for that? Only because when u use wc, I will prob only be leaving on one back (+ PSU fan) and maybe the big 250mm on the side, since thats pretty quiet... I am thinking the wc pipes going thru the case should also help lower overall internal temps correct?
 
Everything is fine with it except the Apogee GT is a fairly old block (diamond pin matrix design, no nozzels or anything). I owned one and it worked well enough, especially on a dual core, but for another ~$25-50 you could get a simi-custom setup very similar with a nicer, more modern block from petrastechshop.com or similar. You'll be looking at somewhere between a 3 and 8C difference in final temp, depending on the rest of your loop, processor type, overclock, voltage / heat load, etc.
 
GreatestOne said:
And I know none of you are great fans of all in one kits, but how is this one?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835108076

It seems like a middle of the road kit, pretty cheap, and it should still blow air cooling out of the water no? (ha no pun intended)
Click to expand...

Yep that's a good kit (especially for the CPU you currently own and the one you're looking to purchase as they're both Dual Core).

It can also easily cool a Quad Core processor but just not as well as the newer blocks. You'll notice in the reviews how well an MCR 220-QP can cool a quad core processor (yes that's the radiator that comes with this kit).

You could probably build something similar around an Apogee GTZ buying the parts separately.

waterkit.jpg
 
Finally EK has their compatibility list updated. I'll order the Enzotech for NB and the S-max for SB. I'll probably get a extra 120mm rad to offset the heat, but I don't know if i need an extra radiator I have a feser 480 with 8 Scythe S-flex 1200rpm for a Push-Pull configuration.

Thanks,
Mark

PS, sorry for using your thread OP.
 
If I wanted to watercool just my CPU and GPU, would the swifttech apogee GTZ work well as the CPU block?

If would like to watercool both the CPU and GPU in the same loop, is jet impingement a bad thing?
 
See-Fu said:
If I wanted to watercool just my CPU and GPU, would the swifttech apogee GTZ work well as the CPU block?

If would like to watercool both the CPU and GPU in the same loop, is jet impingement a bad thing?
Click to expand...

Jet Impingement is never a bad thing by itself. What determines if it's a bad thing will be the loops flow rate. This can be easily rectified by adding another pump to the loop.

The Swiftech Apogee GTZ is a great block for any loop. It is only slightly more restrictive than the FuZion V2 but by negligible numbers. It sits between the FuZion V2 and the EK-Supreme in restriction.
 
Jus got my E8500!!! *salivating..* Frys is awesome, I think I ordered it like tomorrow and its here already for like $5 shipping.

Thanks guys... hey Elmo where did u price those parts, what site? I may just go do that, u guys really loves that GTZ eh? Thats fine, thats pretty much what I read too all around... wouldnt want to get to 4.95ghz and not be able ot go higher, lol...

One question is, is that [ump good enuff to later add a GPU and chipset coolers? Or will I have to add another pump later?

And Silent, when u quoted me that $700, were u pretty much using premium parts for everything and including the GPU/chipset parts? Just that the magnitude from 700 to 250 sounds off so I wanna make sure I am not getting ripped on something significant.
 
GreatestOne said:
Jus got my E8500!!! *salivating..* Frys is awesome, I think I ordered it like tomorrow and its here already for like $5 shipping.

Thanks guys... hey Elmo where did u price those parts, what site? I may just go do that, u guys really loves that GTZ eh? Thats fine, thats pretty much what I read too all around... wouldnt want to get to 4.95ghz and not be able ot go higher, lol...

One question is, is that [ump good enuff to later add a GPU and chipset coolers? Or will I have to add another pump later?
Click to expand...

The site I used was Performance-pcs.com. There are many sites out there including Petra as well as NCIX.com. At the end of my guide (last page) you have a HUGE list of sites:

http://www.xcpus.com/GetDoc.aspx?doc=71&page=12

As for having enough Pump power for a whole loop that includes only a CPU and GPU block that will be no sweat for an MCP655 or MCP355 :)
 
GreatestOne said:
And Silent, when u quoted me that $700, were u pretty much using premium parts for everything and including the GPU/chipset parts? Just that the magnitude from 700 to 250 sounds off so I wanna make sure I am not getting ripped on something significant.
Click to expand...

$700 included another $50 radiator, $50 for 2 AC Ryan Radgrillz (you'll probably still want one of these... much nicer looking than regular fan grills, and easier to deal with), $50 GPU block, $30 GPU HSF, $75 pump, $15 t-line, $30 chipset block, and $120 in Panaflo fans. I also was rounding up a bit to keep things simple in some places. Shopping around a bit I'm sure you could knock $50 or so off the total.

It adds up quick. What you have there is a perfectly sufficient CPU loop, and with a second radiator will be plenty for a CPU and GPU combo loop. A single 2x120 rad isn't going to handle a highly clocked dual core and overclocked graphics card very well, though.
 
silent-circuit said:
$700 included another $50 radiator, $50 for 2 AC Ryan Radgrillz (you'll probably still want one of these... much nicer looking than regular fan grills, and easier to deal with), $50 GPU block, $30 GPU HSF, $75 pump, $15 t-line, $30 chipset block, and $120 in Panaflo fans. I also was rounding up a bit to keep things simple in some places. Shopping around a bit I'm sure you could knock $50 or so off the total.

It adds up quick. What you have there is a perfectly sufficient CPU loop, and with a second radiator will be plenty for a CPU and GPU combo loop. A single 2x120 rad isn't going to handle a highly clocked dual core and overclocked graphics card very well, though.
Click to expand...

Going to need another 2x120 for that task and varying on the video card could even do with just another 1x120mm radiator.

It just depends.
 
So its ok to jus add another radiator and pump as I go along instead of planning for the future and getting a super duper pump/radiator now? It seems adding more in the future is fine a far as the concept but then doesnt it get messy with the additional components now u need to place and fit in or outside your case?
 
GreatestOne said:
So its ok to jus add another radiator and pump as I go along instead of planning for the future and getting a super duper pump/radiator now? It seems adding more in the future is fine a far as the concept but then doesnt it get messy with the additional components now u need to place and fit in or outside your case?
Click to expand...

Not at all. It's all about working with what you have right now. The beauty of watercooling is that you can always expand or subtract as you go along. A loop can last quite a few years unlike an air cooler.
 
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