Watercooled UPS?

[Top Nurse]

Anyone ever watercooled a UPS? I now you guy's think I'm whacked, but I do tend to find interesting applications for exotic cooling methods. This APC UPS's batteries went to meltdown status because the environment it was in was a bit too toasty. Essentially the UPS sits in a very small enclosed area with little to no air flow. And before you ask it can't be located somewhere else. I know....rich people (not me, but my family) tend to be eccentric.

BTW, I want to see you guys come up with a big bore solution to this problem.

 

[Ghent915]

Well...
Can you link me a shot of the UPS you want the watercooling system built into? I'm sure with a wee bit of re-arrangement, an appropriate w/c system could be bodged together.

To be dead honest, this is a situation where a 3/8" "medium bore" (for lack of a better term) would be useful, as you could use a smaller pump (DDC), and smaller tubing. As for chilling the batteries, machined copper plates would work great for interface material. Run the radiator to a point where it would have half decent airflow over it. Heck, you might even be able to run it passively. If not, a cheap AT psu would power a pump and a few fans with no issues.

Someone who has acess to machining equipment could probably go further into explaining if this project is do-able or not. Just from a simple, Id10T standpoint, I don't see any reasons why it couldn't be done.

-Ghent

 

[Top Nurse]

I will snap some pics and post them if a hour or so. I was thinking of using a Koolance Exos as then I can put the unit up on the top of the cabinet (about 6-7 feet up the wall).

 

[Ghent915]

An exos would work. However, if you're going to mod it, go ahead and MOD IT! Besides, it would be cheaper to use just a DDC pump and a decent Rad. Hell, with the $$$ difference between an EXOs you could pick up a good/large passive rad along with the DDC for the same as MSRP for the Exos.

The big $$$ for this project would be in getting the copper battery blocks machined.

Actually...hold that thought...

Perhaps you could use some DD HD blocks, with some modding, as the battery blocks.

Just an idea.
-Ghent

 

[Top Nurse]

Okay shot some pics. Here is the unit I got to work with.

A closeup of the front panel.

These grills are on both sides of the UPS. Normally these work just fine via convection if you have them in open areas as I have several UPS's in my house.

Here is the problem. I think this came about due to high heat not being exhausted properly. I put new batteries in and it works just fine. IMHO it was the combination of high heat and the UPS operating out of temp tolerance that probably caused a current through the batteries that melted them. Just can't see the battery cases melting like this from heat alone. However, the computer operating in this same environment (AMD 2600+) runs about 165-170 degrees Farenheit so I guess it is possible.

The battery box. Been thinking of putting some low profile fans in the back wall, but water sounds more fun.

This is the right side of the UPS. The black plastic to the left is a Smart Accessory Slot which I figured I could get rid of to make some room as I don't use it.

A close up shot of the photo above. There are three big power mosfets attached to each of those four heatsinks. I think this is the item that needs watercooling.

This is the area above the batteries so there appears to be a lot of space to run hoses through here.

This is the left side and I don't see a lot of room to make any mods here.

A close up of the mosfet plates. Nice of them to provide the mounting holes for some waterblocks, huh?

The only place on the back panel for modding is the data port. Everything where else is too busy to cutting or drilling.

Now the key issue here isn't so much how to cram a loop into the UPS as it is to get the heat out of the area in which the UPS operates. So the pump and rad can be located outside the case. Let's hear your ideas!

 

[mohammedtaha]

Whether the pump and rad are in the case or outside the case the temps are gonna be the same.

Your problem is getting cool air into that closet.

Just open up the area .. allow air circulation and try to save some money. Modding isn't always about the most expensive project.

 

[Top Nurse]

???

Okay tomorrow I will run down to my brothers palace and shoot some pics of where it is normally at. Airflow has already been done within the limitations of the King and Queen who resides there.

Modding isn't always about the most expensive project.

Do I hear a tone of jealousy here? This kind of project isn't expensive. Feeding Frenzy has been getting a bit expensive of late, BUT it's not about the money. The point of having money is being able to use it to do the things you want to do. And while it may pain you that others have more finacial resources than you do that is life so get used to it or make more. I went back to college when I was 37 for four years and lived in the poorest parts of town (most would call it a ghetto) and scraped by so I could realize my dreams. Now no schmuck is going to try and shame me into not doing what I want to do.

 

[jman1]

My Thought on this is that heat is not your problem. It looks to me as though those are just old dead batteries (I have replaced many like that) Has this system been through many discharge and recharges? When a battery internally shorts heat results. I think trying to watercool a mains device will only put you on a table with your co-workers from your day job performing CPR on you.

 

[Top Nurse]

My Thought on this is that heat is not your problem. It looks to me as though those are just old dead batteries (I have replaced many like that) Has this system been through many discharge and recharges? When a battery internally shorts heat results. I think trying to watercool a mains device will only put you on a table with your co-workers from your day job performing CPR on you.

Actually as far as I know it has never been through any discharge/charge cycles as I put brand new batteries in when I bought three of them about a year ago. The other two are all running just fine. Thank you for suggesting this as I was wondering just how hot it would have to get in there to cause this much destruction. The reason I was thinking of watercooling is that I think the very high ambient temps might have caused the UPS to operate out of spec and caused some internal circuitry variances leading to the early battery demise.

I had to do some very creative air flow channeling to make the computer not lose it's magic smoke in this environment. BTW, I have an Amateur Radio license so I am okay with dealing with electronic equipment having big capacitors.

 

[jman1]

I guess it is possible that the charge circuit ran away perhaps from a thermal overload of some sort which should not happen if it is then APC should recall them and redesign. Like I said I have seen batteries get deformed in a years use. Rapid discharge and recharge or if they become too discharged can cause internal cells to short which may cause the voltage to be low during the charging, which would put more than normal current through the battery which would cause heating. My concern with the watercooling would be the care you must take as those heat sinks may be hot (as in 110 volt high amps) depending on the device and design. Although it is a cool mod sort of like doing a powersupply. Also keep in mind by modding this you take away any listing such as underwriters labs. And if your home or business burns down due to that device the insurance company may just say have a nice day.

 

[mohammedtaha]

jealous

No jealousy what so ever. I'm happy you got money, enjoy it. I got and love spending money too, I just don't buy unecessary stuff. I like keeping my computer room tidy.

I just don't think you should water cool a device that sounds to me like it's overheating issue could be solved by increasing air flow. If air flow is not sufficient then how is water cooling gonna solve it ?

I'm also with the other guy, it seems like something is wrong with the UPS. That heat can not be removed by water cooling anyways a prescott can't do damage like that .. you also have to worry about the tubes .. at temps like that, the tubes & pumps may not work.

 

[Top Nurse]

The radiator would be completely out of the enclosed area. Like I said it is an odd place to put a computer and UPS. Think about putting your computer and UPS in a wodden box that only has about 2" on the sides, back, and top for clearance. The door to your box stays closed normally. This is much like the environment I am dealing with here. I designed it so that it can suck cool air from the floor and exhaust it out through the side top of the box. The fan turns on only when the computer is on due to being wired to one of the chassis MB fan headers. Evidently the computer can run in this environment, but the UPS does not.

I originally wanted my brother to let me watercool the computer, but being a piping engineer he said he was sure it would leak sooner or later. Since I have had my watercooling running for several years now without a drop of water leaking out he seems willing to go this route now. So I figure to watercool the computer and the UPS off the same loop and the radiator will be up near the ceiling on top of a cabinet. I will post some pics tomorrow and you will see what I mean. It really is an interesting application for watercooling.

 

[mohammedtaha]

Well, I would first try to figure out exactly what parts get warm.

If it just the mosfets then it seems like you would have to use adhesives to stick the water blocks on since you can't really remove the heatsinks mod them and then reinstall them.

This loop must be extremely unrestrictive and has to work with low flow, something I guess you're good at. Connect all waterblocks in series and run them through a radiator into the next pc, radiator again and then pump. The second radiator is not necessary if the CPU isn't warm.

Depending on the length of the loop you might need a strong pump. Unless it's a short one, a decent pump should do it.

It's not an extremely hard project but just make sure you don't mess up. You'll prove your brother right and the damage would be horrible.

If you want to make sure that you won't ever leak on to the equipment, you can make paths around the loops using alum. sheets and direct the flow of water incase a leak happens.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

I would say watercooling is not necessary as the batteries only get that hot when they get old and refuse to hold a charge (UPS's run off the batteries even when 110vac is applied). The life expectancy is about 3 years on that brand.

Unless you can find a way to cool those mosfets, don't bother.

 

[Top Nurse]

I think it is time to get scientific about this and put a thermometer in the cabinet. I don't want to bother watercooling if this was just a fluke. The CPU temp runs about 160-170 degrees farenheit and it keeps the room warm during the winter when it is on. I just figured that the UPS wasn't designed to run in an environment that had a very high ambient temp.

 

[kleox64]

Watercooling a UPS?

No way 110V mains doesnt go well with water especially with batteries, unless your willing to risk frying not only your UPS but everything connected to it. Dude get this idea out of your head.

 

[Top Nurse]

Watercooling a UPS?

No way 110V mains doesnt go well with water especially with batteries, unless your willing to risk frying not only your UPS but everything connected to it. Dude get this idea out of your head.

I gather your not too keen on watercooled PSU's either? If I decide to do this I will not have water inside the UPS.

 

[revenant]

I would say just better ventillation on the top and sides of the batts and a temp activated cooling fan is all which is needed there... but if you really really want to water cool it, just for grins and possible excitement, then maybe Koolance's HD cooler idea, with the "pouch" to cover the tops and/or sides, or something like that to make good contact with the batts... ?

 

[BillR]

I admit to being a bit confused here. I have 7 UPS’s and just checked them all and all are cool to the touch.

I placed my APC 700 in a totally no airflow closet with a mini-fridge and over loaded it and it never got beyond barely warm to the touch, batteries included.

You sure something isn’t actually wrong with that particular unit?

Just a thought

 

[revenant]

yeah - that is very true. maybe it was stuck in a "self test" state... or, the charge full sensor was bad and it over charged the batts... I bet that is more than likely the case... batts generally only produce notable heat when they're being discharged quickly or charged up quickly... or overcharged.

 

[Axman]

I work in an enterprise-level server room all damn day (music in the right ear, FANS FANS FANS in the left) and sit on five huge UPSs. They do put out heat when they're doing more than just trickle-charging, or just trickly-charging. Most importantly, we budget for battery failiure.

Unless your UPS is brand-new, if you've had a failiure and you've used the thing for a couple of years now you're par for the course. I'm quite surprised to find that two years on quite a few things in here is the average fail point; ventilation duct fans, light ballasts, security cameras. . .the list goes on and on. Believe it or not, we just overhauled everything, about, oh, two years ago. . .

Anyway, heat is not the enemy you may percieve it to be. They do have an operating temperature that may easily exceed 150 degrees, and just fail because it's time.

Not to pwn all over your 3|>3|\|1$ or anything; like the man said, "If it's empty, fill it with cream." And by cream, I of course mean propylene glycol.

 

[Top Nurse]

I said I woud post some pics of the operating environment of this UPS. Here is where the computer sits. See the door cabinet that is about a foot wide?

The inner cabinet has a computer sitting in the bottom compartment.

This is the amount of space between the computer and the shelf that the UPS sits above. You can see to the right the exhaust fan I put in to suck the heat out.

A close up of the fan arrangement. This is the only way to get heat out of this box. It is attached to one of the MB fan headers so it automatically turns on whenever the computer is on.

Here is the method I designed to bring fresh air into the cabinet. The front of the computer is situated so that the cool air is drawn into the inside of it from the floor area.

Here is where the air exhausts to the room. I used an automotive speaker grill for asthetics.

This is with the grill off just showing the fan attached to the speaker mount.

Here is the area that the APC Smart UPS 700 sits along with a power strip above the computer. Admitedly the air flow up here isn't as good as the compartment that holds the computer. There is no place to add a fan so hot air that isn't exhausted somehow will get trapped up here to a certain extent.

Now I put new batteries in the UPS and it seems to be running fine. So the big question is does it get hot enough in here to cause a malfunction in the circuitry which fries the batteries. I have a couple more of the same UPS's here and the batteries look very normal and all of them are less than a year old. This was why I thought this would be a good watercooling project as it is easier to remove heat with water and exhaust it up near the top of the cabinets sitting on the granite top. IOW, the radiator would be about 6 feet above the computer/UPS cabinet.

 

[Bevous]

My god, whens the last time that you cleaned out that dust bunny farm...................... No wonder you want to water cool everything, air couldn't get through that if it wanted to........................

 

[Axman]

No shit, you need to get yourself a HEPA filter for your computer room if there's that kind of dust in it.

I have three cats; I swab my rig about once a month. It's like changing your oil, just do it on Chore Saturday or something. Or start taking everything apart when your GF wants to go out and you want to watch a Netflix. . .

 

[Top Nurse]

Actually the grill was a side shot and the holes were wide open before I vaccumed it. My brother is responsible for doing the cleaning as I just do the design and building work. Nevertheless that has nothing to do with the problem at hand. The issue is that the UPS sits up in the top compartment and their doesn't seem to be any way to blow out the heat without major mods to the house structure.

 

[jman1]

step one would to me be ...Cut a huge opening in the back of that cabinet.

 

[Top Nurse]

step one would to me be ...Cut a huge opening in the back of that cabinet.

Not feasible as the outside wall is on the other side. Besides, we already tried that. See those blue strips of tape on the left? Those were drilled into the back and side walls to get some breathing room. Unfortunately it also created a problem in that there wasn't enough negative pressure in the cabinet to pull air in from the bottom holes I drilled to cool the computer. So that is why the tape is there.

 

[Axman]

Gimme the make of the batteries and I'll find out what their operational range is. You might not have to worry about it.

Also, have you considered that it's not the UPS that's generating the heat? DC adapters are worse generators than most assume. Might want to get some of these:

http://www.powerstripsaver.com/

A

 

[rainman]

There's a very simple solution to this problem.

You make a bracket that holds the UPS in place under the shelf outside of the computer cabinet. Mounted up high allows the power cords to reach into the computer cabinet and so on. It allows for airflow and is out of sight.

Simple and effective.


Also, ditch the surge protector, especially if you have it plugged into the UPS. One device per outlet on the UPS. If you need the surge protector for peripherals that don't need battery backup, plug the surge protector directly into the wall outlet and then the peripherals into the surge protector.

 

[Top Nurse]

The batteries are Tysonic 12V 7.0 AH SLA batteries. Here are the battery specs. I would estimate that the internal temp of that cabinet to be about 150-175 degrees farenheit where the UPS is situated.

 

[mohammedtaha]

Negative pressure can suck air in yes .. but positive pressure is what you should have ..

No matter what .. you're sucking out hot air since the fan is at the top sucking ...

Just make sure that there's good airflow and that the case actually gets some of it ..

 

[Axman]

175 is scalding hot, you would be burned slightly by touching any part of the unit, the plugs into it, or the walls of the desk around it. It's the temperature of fried chicken (or the perfect temperature to server assam tea--I'm bitter, my tea shop closed and now I can't taste my tea before I buy it). Are you sure it's that hot? Put a cooking thermometer in there. Most gel-cells won't break 150 and transformers 120. Still, any heat is bad heat.