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Volume level isn't what I expected

L

Laforge

2[H]4U
Joined
Jun 29, 2003
Messages
3,132
I've got the yamaha home theater system "YHT-150"

http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/HTIB/HTIB_150_1.htm

It's " 615 watts " ..

FINALLY got around to doing a comparison between it and my "old" speakers

http://www.midiland.com/proddetail.asp?linenumber=72&category=


As you can see by comparison, the YHT system should "blow the midilands away" -- 100+ watt satellites vs 10 watt satellites.. 100+watt subwoofer vs 40 watt subwoofer..


Now, the yamaha does produce a "cleaner" sound.. - Cranked up, it still *sounds* better.. but, i'll be damned if the midilands don't seem LOUDER to me on the same songs..

Someone told me that it could be the gauge of wire I am using is preventing the "full power" of my yamaha's from coming across? I mean, my office is small, so at "-30.0 DB" i've got a lot of sound [range is -80 to +16], and I consider -30 about "half of maximum volume" [i never turn speakers all the way up].. But, Like I said, the sound QUANTITY is much less

Is it the wires?

Do I have something set really wrong?
 
Attenuation from low gauge wires most likely isn't the problem, it's probably limited by onboard amps. Power specs, especially for low-end receivers, is vastly over-rated. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual wattage output for all channels driven is only in the range of 20W. Even that could be high. Hell, I've got a Marantz receiver that retailed at 1700 when it came out, 120W a channel, and I don't think that it can hit even 50% of that with all channels driven. In fact, Marantz did a press release stating that all their new x500 series receivers will hit 70% of their rated power, all channels driven.

Now, on the other hand, with reasonably efficient speakers, you don't need too much wattage. I'm driving a pair of 90dB/w/m speakers off of a 38WPC tube amp, and at half volume I have SPL's over 100dB. Assuming the amp doesn't start clipping before max output, that's about 105-110dB for only 40ish watts per speaker, and my speakers aren't nearly as efficient as some horn-loaded Klipschs.

Back on the topic of wires: If those speakers did come with some 22ga or something similar, you should throw that out and go buy some zip cord from Home Depot. While the resistive losses won't be too high, they will roll off different frequencies, screwing with the overall sound quality. Somebody out there did a doubleblind test comparing Monster cable, 24ga and 16 [I think] ga. Monster cable and the zip cord were tied, while there was a significant difference noted between either of those and the 24ga.
 
BO(V)BZ said:
Attenuation from low gauge wires most likely isn't the problem, it's probably limited by onboard amps. Power specs, especially for low-end receivers, is vastly over-rated. I wouldn't be surprised if the actual wattage output for all channels driven is only in the range of 20W. Even that could be high. Hell, I've got a Marantz receiver that retailed at 1700 when it came out, 120W a channel, and I don't think that it can hit even 50% of that with all channels driven. In fact, Marantz did a press release stating that all their new x500 series receivers will hit 70% of their rated power, all channels driven.

Now, on the other hand, with reasonably efficient speakers, you don't need too much wattage. I'm driving a pair of 90dB/w/m speakers off of a 38WPC tube amp, and at half volume I have SPL's over 100dB. Assuming the amp doesn't start clipping before max output, that's about 105-110dB for only 40ish watts per speaker, and my speakers aren't nearly as efficient as some horn-loaded Klipschs.

Back on the topic of wires: If those speakers did come with some 22ga or something similar, you should throw that out and go buy some zip cord from Home Depot. While the resistive losses won't be too high, they will roll off different frequencies, screwing with the overall sound quality. Somebody out there did a doubleblind test comparing Monster cable, 24ga and 16 [I think] ga. Monster cable and the zip cord were tied, while there was a significant difference noted between either of those and the 24ga.
Click to expand...


you're pretty much right on the money. also, those little receivers that come with the HTIBs arent high current. pretty much meaning its not a high quality receiver and wont come close to putting out its rated power.

my main speakers have 94db sensitivity, meaning that with only 4 watts, they hit 100 db (since for every 3db sound increase, you have to double the wattage, since its a logarithmic scale). my receiver is 45W per channel in 5.1 mode and 55 in stereo mode, and it can wipe plaster clean off my walls. it goes to +10 db, and since the volume is logarithmic with a base of 10, every 10 db is twice as loud. the highest i can possibly go with it being tolerated by my ears is about -20 to -15, which is in the neighborhood of 1/8 max volume.

so, the lesson is, sensitivity is the most important factor in loudness, not watts.
 
bjornb17 said:
so, the lesson is, sensitivity is the most important factor in loudness, not watts.
Click to expand...

Agreed, most people think that watts are everything, when most of the time you'll not be needing nearly that much power. In fact, if you were to take advantage of it, you'd end up with tinnitus within a month :D
 
other thing, is it actually loudness you hear, or is it high pitched distortion you heard and consider loud?

Reason I say this is I've found systems where they play so clean that I end up turning them up too high and end up feeling like I trashed my ears something awful after turning them off than I did with a system I thought was "louder"....but I thought the volume wasnt as high as it was due to low distortion.
 
mustang_steve said:
other thing, is it actually loudness you hear, or is it high pitched distortion you heard and consider loud?

Reason I say this is I've found systems where they play so clean that I end up turning them up too high and end up feeling like I trashed my ears something awful after turning them off than I did with a system I thought was "louder"....but I thought the volume wasnt as high as it was due to low distortion.
Click to expand...


Well, my test audio is blue man group - -I wouldn't consider them to have a lot of "high pitched" tones in their 6 foot drum booms. -- But, that's what I was talking about - The cheapies are louder, but not as 'clean' of a sound (not bad, mind you) the yamaha system is a lot purer of a sound, but not as loud.


To the previous poster :
I understand that "watts aren't everything"
But.. an $80 set of off-brand speakers versus an "on-brand" home theater system that ran me $249? I would HOPE that the yamaha system should give MORE and CLEANER sound... It only fulfills one of these needs.

The satellites on the midiland system are *10* watts rms (advertised) the yamaha is 100
 
Well consider what you got for $250. You got a complete system for that much money, when there are surge supressors that cost more than quadruple that amount. You get what you pay for really.
 
here's how to figure out all channel driven wattage figures:

look at the power specs for the amp in question (not the speaker output power, the wall power)....in this case it's 120v/240w. The claimed power is 103x5.


Now no amp is 100% effiecient, I'm goign to be nice here and give them 50%, since that is the norm in general, since large amounts of power in amps are last as heat...that gives 120w for 5 channels. That's 24 watts per channel that this unit could put out...for how long I don't know.

for comparison purposes, my 2-channel yamaha rx-496 is rated at 65wpc. It's power consumotion is 120v/160w. At 50% that would be about 40 watts per channel.

Note whenever the power consumotion is higher than the output, bullshit is at play and the rating is prolly PMPO or some other meaningless drivel. My receiver has a more believable rating...but it's still hard to believe that it is so efficient that it can get 130w out of 160w in...that's far too efficient to make any sense, especially for a class a/b unit like it is.

Oddly though, my receiver's manual states that it has a canadian model, and it has an extra 20w of power consumption....weird.



edit: here's a source to show why I chose 50%, and why that was being nice: http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010220S0049
 
Especially with cheaper speakers, bass is exaggerated to make them sound more 'powerful' (and mask the distortion of higher frequencies). This might be what you're hearing.

Watt-ratings are only slightly more useful than PMPO-ratings ;)
 
depends what kind of speaker load your driving...if your driving something demanding, wattage makes a hell of a lot of difference.

The Infinity speakers with EMIT tweeters and mids had a bad rep of unreliability when in truth it was jsut people were underpowering them, causing the EMIT drivers to blow out.

As far as loudness, speaker sensitivity is king, but as far as keeping your speakers working right...proper power for your use is also important. Given most speakers play fine with as little as 5-10w, but some, like electrostatic speakers, require far more power than what many would consider normal.


edit: plus...if the wattage spec is more believeable, it's also usually indicative that other specs are that much more reliable too ;)
 
bjornb17 said:
you're pretty much right on the money. also, those little receivers that come with the HTIBs arent high current. pretty much meaning its not a high quality receiver and wont come close to putting out its rated power.

my main speakers have 94db sensitivity, meaning that with only 4 watts, they hit 100 db (since for every 3db sound increase, you have to double the wattage, since its a logarithmic scale). my receiver is 45W per channel in 5.1 mode and 55 in stereo mode, and it can wipe plaster clean off my walls. it goes to +10 db, and since the volume is logarithmic with a base of 10, every 10 db is twice as loud. the highest i can possibly go with it being tolerated by my ears is about -20 to -15, which is in the neighborhood of 1/8 max volume.

so, the lesson is, sensitivity is the most important factor in loudness, not watts.
Click to expand...

Sensitivity and SNR/THD are my factors for speakers in general. But money is the one that really controls everything, hence Z680's :).
 
I think that it's safe to assume that those Yammie's aren't using anything esoteric like electrostatic or planar speaker elements :D

laforge, can you give us more detailed info? IE, how close you are to max volume, tonal quality, more insight into the differences between the two systems, etc? Also, how loud are you going? It's a very relative term....just ask my girlfriend, our opinions differ somewhat :D
 
BO(V)BZ said:
I think that it's safe to assume that those Yammie's aren't using anything esoteric like electrostatic or planar speaker elements :D

laforge, can you give us more detailed info? IE, how close you are to max volume, tonal quality, more insight into the differences between the two systems, etc? Also, how loud are you going? It's a very relative term....just ask my girlfriend, our opinions differ somewhat :D
Click to expand...


As I said in my first post, - I have the home theater receiver set to around half way and I have the volume control knob on the cheapies set to around half-way.

The 'volume range' of the yamaha is -80 to +16
my -30 is 50 from the bottom, and 46 from the top...

I don't dare put them at full blast - fear of blowing them out.

Basically, what I can say is this.. - The blueman sound cleaner on the yamaha, but, the cheapies are louder. - I feel if I were to turn the cheapies all the way up, and the yamaha's all the way up, I'd hear the cheapies over the yamaha. The cheapies, while they wouldn't just be making noise, would not sound as good, but would be "acceptable" - The yamaha would sound great, and be loud.

Ultimately, I guess my solution is I just need to turn the yamaha's up farther, but, my point is, that "even with exaggeration" 90 watts should NOT be louder than 615 watts. I know everyone lies about how powerful the system is.. but, I'm thinking the cheapies are TOO..

I know you get what you pay for.. -- My office is only about 170 sq feet, so, the sound level *is* fine.. - Its just, as I said, not what I expected.. I expected to get "high" sound at -50..

My OLDER yamaha home theater system which is in my 1000 square foot living room http://www.yamaha.com/cgi-win/webcgi.exe/DsplyModel/?gRSY00010YHT-500 sounds louder



Lets compare :
[pre]
http://www.yamaha.com/images/yht500.gif
HTR-5540 TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
AUDIO SECTION
Minimum RMS Output Power per Channel MAIN, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.06% THD, 8--------75W + 75W
CENTER, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.06% THD, 8-------75W
REAR, 20Hz-20kHz, 0.06% THD, 8------75W + 75W
Minimum RMS Output Power per Channel MAIN, 1kHz, 0.06% THD, 8-------80W + 80W
CENTER, 1kHz, 0.06% THD, 8-------80W
REAR, 1kHz, 0.06% THD, 8------80W + 80W
Dynamic Power per Channel MAIN, 8/6/4/2------95/115/140/160W
Dynamic Headroom 8-----1.2dB
Damping Factor MAIN L/R, 20Hz-20kHz, 8-----80 or more
Input Sensitivity/Impedance CD, etc-----150mV/47k
Maximum Input Signal Level CD, etc (Effect on)-----2.2V
Output Level/Impedance OUT (REC)-----150mV/1.2k
SUBWOOFER (EFFECT OFF, MAIN SP:SMALL)
MONO----4.0V/1.2k
Headphone Jack Rated Output/Impedance CD, etc, (40mV, 8-----340mV/560
Frequency Response (10Hz-100kHz) CD, etc, MAIN L/R-----+0/-3.0dB
Tone Control Characteristics
BASS: Boost/Cut-----+/-10dB (50Hz)
Turnover Frequency-----350Hz
TREBLE: Boost/Cut-----+/-10dB (20kHz)
Turnover Frequency-----3.5 kHz
Total Harmonic Distortion (20Hz-20kHz) CD, etc, to MAIN SP OUT L/R (1V)-----0.06%
Signal-to-Noise Ratio (IHF-A-Network) CD, etc, Input Shorted (Effect off)-----100dB
Residual Noise (IHF-A-Network) MAIN, SP OUT-----150uV
Channel Separation (Vol. -30dB, Effect off) CD, etc, Input 5.1k Shorted, 1kHz-----60dB
VIDEO SECTION
Video Signal Type NTSC
Composite Video Signal Level 1Vp-p/75
Video Maximum Input Level 1.5Vp-p
Video Signal-to-Noise Ratio 50dB
Monitor Output Frequency Response Composite Video Signal-----5Hz-10MHz, -3dB
TUNER SECTION (FM)
Tuning Range 87.5 to 107.9MHz
50dB Quieting Sensitivity (IHF, 75) Mono (1kHz, 100% Mod)-----2.0uV (17.3dBf)
Stereo (1kHz, 100% Mod)-----25uV (39.2dBf)
Selectivity (400kHz) 70dB
Signal-to-Noise Ratio Mono/Stereo (IHF)----76/70dB
Harmonic Distortion Mono/Stereo (1kHz)-----0.2./0.3%
Stereo Separation 1kHz-----45dB
Frequency Response 20Hz-15kHz----+0.5/-2.0dB
Output Level FM 100% Mod. 1kHz-----550mV
Antenna Input 75 unbalanced
TUNER SECTION (AM)
Tuning Range 530 to 1,710kHz
Usable Sensitivity 300uV/m
Output Level AM 30% Mod. 1kHz-----150mV
Signal-to-Noise Ratio 52dB
Antenna Loop Antenna
Dimensions (W x H x D) 17 1/8" x 5 15/16" x 15 1/16"
Weight 22 lbs
DV-S5450 TECHNICAL SPECIFICATIONS
AUDIO SECTION
Frequency Response DVD (48kHz Sampling)-----2Hz-22kHz
DVD (96kHz Sampling)-----2Hz-44kHz
CD, Video CD-----2Hz-20kHz
Harmonic Distortion + Noise (1kHz) 0.0035%
Signal-to-Noise (1kHz) 100dB (Weighted)
Dynamic Range (1kHz) 97dB
Output Voltage (1kHz, 0dB) 2.0V
D/A Converter 24 bit
VIDEO SECTION
Video Output 1V p-p (75)
S-Video Output Y Output-----1Vp-p (75)
C Output-----0.286Vp-p (75)
Component Video Output Y Output-----1Vp-p (75)
Pb/Pr Output-----0.7Vp-p (75)
D/A Converter 10 bit
Dimensions ( W x H x D) 17 1/8" x 3 5/8" x 12 3/8"
Weight 7.3 lbs.
NS-AP329 TECH SPECS
MAIN/SURROUND
Type Two way, acoustic suspension, magnetically shielded bookshelf type.
Driver Complement 3" high compliance woofer
1/2" mylar dome tweeter
Input Power 10 watts nominal, 120 watts music power
Frequency Response 150 Hz-22kHz +/- 3dB
Sensitivity 87dB/2.83v/1m
Impedance 6
Dimensions (W x H x D) 7 7/8" x 3 15/16" x 4 1/8"
Weight 2.6 lbs/ea
CENTER
Type Two way, acoustic suspension, magnetically shielded bookshelf type.
Driver Complement Dual 3" high compliance woofers
1/2" mylar dome tweeter
Input Power 10 watts nominal, 120 watts music power
Frequency Response 120 Hz-22kHz +/-3dB
Sensitivity 87dB/2.83v/1m
Impedance 6
Dimensions (W x H x D) 3 15/16" x 10 3/8" x 4 1/8"
Weight 3.8 lbs/ea
YST-SW005 TECH SPECS
Driver 6 1/2" magnetically sheilded cone driver
Amplifier Built in 50 watt Yamaha Advanced Active Servo Technology
Frequency Range 30-200Hz
High-Cut Filter Dual position switch (100Hz low, 200Hz high)
Dimensions (W x H x D) 7 7/8" x 14 7/20" x 14 3/4"
Weight 18.8 lbs
[/pre]

New System
http://www.yamaha.com/yec/products/prod_images/L_YH150SL.jpg
[pre]
SURROUND SOUND SPEAKER SYSTEM PACKAGE(NS-AP1500)
2 Main Speakers, 2 Surround Speakers, 1 Center Channel Speaker

5 Channel Speaker Package
Dual 2-1/2" Full Range Cone Speaker
Frequency Response: 100Hz-20kHz (Mains), 100Hz-20KHz (Effects)
Maximum 100 Watts Power Handling
POWERED SUBWOOFER (YST-SW010)

High Power 100W Advanced YST Subwoofer
Magnetically Shielded for Video Use
6-1/2" Driver
Frequency Response: 30Hz to 200Hz
5.1 CHANNEL A/V HOME THEATER RECEIVER (HTR-5730)

5.1 Channel A/V Home Theater Receiver
High Power Discrete Amplification 100W x 5
DTS-ES Discrete, Dolby Digital EX, Dolby ProLogic II Decoding
Yamaha Original 32-bit Cinema-DSP Processing
24 Cinema-DSP Surround Modes
96kHz/24-bit DAC
Speaker A-B Output
4 Video Inputs
Digital Input (2 Optical/ 1 Coaxial)
REMOTE CONTROL

Preset Remote Control
[/pre]


The reason I didn't buy another one of the old systems was multi-fold

1) I thought the "new" system, which was higher-power rated, would be louder.
2) I thought the "new" system, would be generally improved
3) I didn't need a 5 disk dvd changer
4) I didn't need the Y Pr Pb and all that extra VIDEO hookups, since this rig just runs my computer system in my office.
5) It cost more...



I just don't see how a 3 year old, $90 pair of no-name brand, and a 5 year old, 75watt per channel home theater system can outperform a brand new, 103 watt per channel home theater system.


Does my new system not serve my needs? No.
Does it do what I expected it to? NO.

Are you allowed to post images hosted on commercial servers on this forum?
No. ;)
~X
 
Well, I guess I can't really give any deep insight about why the older, lesser system would go louder, besides perhaps factoring in truly massive exaggeration in the power ratings.

I'd just turn up the new guys to the loudness level that you want, play them like that for an hour or so, see how that works out.

As long as everything sounds the same [no drivers crackling, etc], and you don't feel limited in terms of a volume ceiling, I wouldn't let the amp power issue worry you too much.

For instance, Sunfire markets a 13" cube sub that claims to pack a 2700W RMS amp for it's twin 10" drivers. That, of course, is spurious: the best mains can only provide 2200W of power...and that is a seriously HUGE amount of current. I don't care how efficient their amps are, there's no way they can dissipate that kind of heat that that would generate.

However, this over-rated power spec doesn't make this sub a poor performer [there are actually several other good reasons for that :D ] but it does call into question the legitimacy of the manufacturer in terms of publishing bogus info.

EDIT1:Anyways, I'd say return the fuckers if you aren't happy with them. It's your money, and there are a bunch of other options in the same price range, so there's no reason for you to remain unhappy about anything.

EDIT2: If you can get one, get a wattmeter and figure out the current draw of the speakers as you play with them. I'm not positive where you can get ahold of one to play with though..for whatever reason, the local library in my hometown rents one out :confused:
 
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