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VMotion vs FT vs HA

AMD_Gamer

Fully [H]
Joined
Jan 20, 2002
Messages
18,287
I just watched the VMware video on Fault Tolerance and from what I can figure out is that it is the new version of HA? Does anyone use HA instead of FT and if so why?

Also I am a bit confused about Why you would need VMotion if you could just setup and configure FT? it would do the same thing right?
 
FT has so many limitation like only allow 1 vcpu and also have a bit overhead to keep the active and shadow VM in sync. Also, you need to double your resource if you use FT as your shadow VM will consume the same resource (CPU/memory) as active one.

When a VM is set up with FT, you cannot do vMotion as well.

HA is only happen when your VM is frozen or host is crashed..then it'll restart the VM somewhere else.
 
I thought the memory dedupe would make it so that in FT setups that you would not need 2 times the memory?
 
I see, so VMotion is for upgrades to say a new machine without any downtime.
 
I'm sorry, I was giggling reading this. You guys are funny :>

HA is protection for virtual machines from hardware failure. It isn't fault tolerant which means if a failure does occur it REBOOTS or powers on the VM on a different ESX(i) host so it is basically a cold power on from a crash. VMware FT (which does have a lot of limitations) live streams the state of a virtual machine and changes to a secondary ESX(i) server, it does require twice the memory. Memory cannot dedupe via TPS across hosts. Fault tolerance means a VM will stay up when the host the primary or secondary is running on DIES, as long as one of the other stays up, the VM keeps running. However, this doesn't help you if an application crashes, or during patches. Once it crashes, it crashes on BOTH sides, and if you stop a service to patch... it stops on both sides. It protects you against a single ESX(i) host failure, that is it and it still has a lot of limitations that make it rarely used (in my experience). However FT is completely compatible with vMotion and DRS as of vSphere 4.1... things change ;).

vMotion is the ability to migrate a virtual machine hot from one host to another. It has nothing to do with 'protecting' virtual machines like HA or FT. What it does allow, is for you to clear a single host off of all its VMs without taking down time for the VMs to do maintenance, or if you have DRS it load balances the ESX(i) hosts as the workload changes throughout the day, etc.

vMotion, HA, and FT are completely separate, and none of those protect you like an application level clustering solution, like MSCS/WFC. It all depends on what you need exactly. Setting up MSCS / WFC in a VMware environment across hosts is still a bit of a pita, so it really boils down to whether or not you can sustain a few minutes of down time.
 
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I'm sorry, I was giggling reading this. You guys are funny :>

HA is protection for virtual machines from hardware failure. It isn't fault tolerant which means if a failure does occur it REBOOTS or powers on the VM on a different ESX(i) host so it is basically a cold power on from a crash. VMware FT (which does have a lot of limitations) live streams the state of a virtual machine and changes to a secondary ESX(i) server, it does require twice the memory. Memory cannot dedupe via TPS across hosts. Fault tolerance means a VM will stay up when the host the primary or secondary is running on DIES, as long as one of the other stays up, the VM keeps running. However, this doesn't help you if an application crashes, or during patches. Once it crashes, it crashes on BOTH sides, and if you stop a service to patch... it stops on both sides. It protects you against a single ESX(i) host failure, that is it and it still has a lot of limitations that make it rarely used (in my experience). However FT is completely compatible with vMotion and DRS as of vSphere 4.1... things change ;).

vMotion is the ability to migrate a virtual machine hot from one host to another. It has nothing to do with 'protecting' virtual machines like HA or FT. What it does allow, is for you to clear a single host off of all its VMs without taking down time for the VMs to do maintenance, or if you have DRS it load balances the ESX(i) hosts as the workload changes throughout the day, etc.

vMotion, HA, and FT are completely separate, and none of those protect you like an application level clustering solution, like MSCS/WFC. It all depends on what you need exactly. Setting up MSCS / WFC in a VMware environment across hosts is still a bit of a pita, so it really boils down to whether or not you can sustain a few minutes of down time.

Thanks i got it all down after watching a bunch of videos on YouTube. Can you explain to me the limitations of FT and most people still use the normal HA?

I am doing a side job this summer for a small business where I will be putting their current servers on ESXi. The guy I am working for just told me today that he got two servers for some kind of HA/FT so I am looking into the best solution.
 
FT can only have 1 vCPU, you have to have the proper VMware licensing as well (at least Advanced... I'm almost certain essentials doesn't have it). I think the biggest pain for it, is that you need an FT logging vmkernel port and NICs can be at a premium. It does consume resources on the secondary host as well... it isn't huge but it is there. I'm not saying it is worthless, I just don't see huge adoption. It has a weird spot between a reboot being ok from failure and application clustering, but if you need to avoid a host failure entirely it almost always jumps to needing to protect the application from crashing -- which FT does not do. Everything is sent to the secondary VM, including crashes.
 
I just watched the VMware video on Fault Tolerance and from what I can figure out is that it is the new version of HA? Does anyone use HA instead of FT and if so why?

Also I am a bit confused about Why you would need VMotion if you could just setup and configure FT? it would do the same thing right?

Was it my video on YouTube? :)

I think most of your questions have been answered. vMotion is to move machines without downtime for maintenance or load redistribution in the cluster. VMware HA will restart a VM should it or the host it's residing on crash. VMware FT keeps an active "shadow VM" on a second host which is in lockstep with the primary. It takes resources on both hosts as you can't "share" memory across two hosts. FT also has many limitations as described in this thread.
 
Was it my video on YouTube? :)

I think most of your questions have been answered. vMotion is to move machines without downtime for maintenance or load redistribution in the cluster. VMware HA will restart a VM should it or the host it's residing on crash. VMware FT keeps an active "shadow VM" on a second host which is in lockstep with the primary. It takes resources on both hosts as you can't "share" memory across two hosts. FT also has many limitations as described in this thread.

I watched your FT video but the VMotion was is old lol. FT was really good.

Looks like i will be setting up normal HA. Is that the common practice?
 
I watched your FT video but the VMotion was is old lol. FT was really good.

Looks like i will be setting up normal HA. Is that the common practice?

Yep, HA will protect ALL the VMs in your cluster. FT... you can only protect oh so many, before you cap out the amount of data the logging NIC can handle.
 
Thanks for the info. I start work on Tuesday and will have more info about the servers we will be using.
 
Thanks for the info. I start work on Tuesday and will have more info about the servers we will be using.

OK cool. There are a lot of decisions to make around HA, because the default setting for HA ("how many hosts failures the cluster will tolerate") will use the largest CPU / Memory reservations in order to deem slot sizing. If you don't have any reservations set, things could get weird there as well because enough resources won't be available to restart everything. The default slot size is incredibly small, though you can specify it as well if you don't have reservations set :). Every decision you make has an impact on the result. There are 3 ways to tell the VMware environment in what way to keep resources available in case of a failure. There is no 'right' way to do it every time, it always depends. I'd go over to www.yellow-bricks.com and read the HA deep dive. It will help you a lot. The rabbit hole gets deep, there is a lot more to it than I have mentioned here. It is really easy to go through and turn on HA, but it is another thing entirely to understand all the impacts / caveats.

Without any insult intended... given your questions/statements in this thread it is easy to tell you don't have a lot of experience yet. It seems to me this is going to be your first time setting this up. You can end up in-over-your-head kind of fast and you won't know it until sh*t hits the fan and the results aren't what was expected. I only caution as much as I do because you mentioned you're doing it for a customer. Customer's do things that affect your design as well you can never plan for. For instance they might set a large reservation for no good reason, and then they can't power on new VMs because HA is blocking it as it would violate resource constraints.
 
Sorry to bring up an old thread but we are moving away from MSCS and are going to strictly deploy/support VMware HA/FT. I'm trying to compile a list of benefits of VM HA/FT over MSCS. I already know that there are gaps that VM's model cannot replace.........specifically application FT, but nonetheless I need to come up with as many benefits of VM HA/FT over MSCS to convince existing customers. Can anyone add to the list I've complied so far or state any innacuracies? Please don't respond with benefits of MSCS over VM HA/FT only the other way around.

Reasons for moving from MS Clustering (MSCS) to VMware HA/FT (in no particular order)

1. Clustering requires application compatibility, VMware HA/FT is application agnostic
2. ******* isn't validated on Server2008 for clustering, we don't support Server 2003 for ****** ((we have many apps that are validate for Server 2003 clustering, but not validated for Server 2008 and we will not support 2003 anymore (please no comments as to the support of 2003......the decision is made))
3. Clustering is complex to implement and maintain compared to VMware HA/FT
4. No VMotion or live migration of nodes to other hosts with MSCS (yes I know a FT VM must be switched back to HA temporarily)
5. MSCS requires Raw Disk Mappings (RDM)
6. Can have a maximum of 2 nodes per cluster on MSCS
7. Storage becomes single point of failure with MSCS
8. Server 2008 R2 more reliable than Server 2003
9. Patching is easier with VMware HA/FT, MSCS needs node being patched brought down. VMware HT/FT can switch to HA mode (if in FT mode) and perform a snapshot prior to patching.
10. Host patching (physical server) is less likely to affect a VMware host than it is a MS node due to the strict hardware requirements of VMware hosts.
11. MSCS support of iSCSI limited, typically must be FC
12. VMware HA/FT more resilient to hardware failures
13. MSCS more expensive than VMware HT/FT both at the software as well as the hardware level.
14. VMware is much easier to scale out........just add hardware

Thanks
 
MassiveOverkill said:
Please don't respond with benefits of MSCS over VM HA/FT only the other way around.

I'll leave the experts to grind this one out, suffice to say that I believe that several of your points are not objective reasons or perhaps even just plain wrong. AFAIK MSCS works fine with iSCSI via the software initiator (maybe you googled for it and found some info from 2006?), "typically must be FC" is already a vague admission that the preceding statement is incorrect. #14 is only of limited use since FT/HA hosts must be close in spec in order for it to work, so yes within say 18 months of deployment you can add more hardware, after that it will become harder and harder to find the right hardware to add.

IMHO there are good reasons to switch without that you need to resort to the gray areas of the truth to convince customers who may just call you out on some of this stuff if they bother to check into it.
 
I'll leave the experts to grind this one out, suffice to say that I believe that several of your points are not objective reasons or perhaps even just plain wrong. AFAIK MSCS works fine with iSCSI via the software initiator (maybe you googled for it and found some info from 2006?), "typically must be FC" is already a vague admission that the preceding statement is incorrect. #14 is only of limited use since FT/HA hosts must be close in spec in order for it to work, so yes within say 18 months of deployment you can add more hardware, after that it will become harder and harder to find the right hardware to add.

IMHO there are good reasons to switch without that you need to resort to the gray areas of the truth to convince customers who may just call you out on some of this stuff if they bother to check into it.

Software initators are frowned upon from a performance perspective and we already have statements saying we will not support MS iSCSI software initiator. We've already filtered out older hardware in our deployments to state "Your existing hardware must be such and such model", and we are looking at a 2-year timeline from 1st quarter of next year.

We are also preparing a document to come back with proper responses to those accounts with knowledgeable IT ready to question merits.........obviously the biggest is application failover. That is something seperate that's not going to be provided in simple marketing material.

You didn't provide those other good reasons to switch........how about providing them please. Keep in mind that I'm not the one making the decision to not support MSCS. I'm just trying to come up with as many pros for it to help marketing with its task. I'm also actually trying to find use-cases where businesses have actually made the switch and are happy with it.

Using a combination of both seems to provide the best FT scenario but we're not going to support that either.
 
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Let's think about it. What are the reasons people use MSCS? It protects against a hardware failure. It protects against OS failure (bluescreen). It can protect against an application crashing. It helps with patching the underlying operating system because you can patch, make sure it looks okay, then failback the cluster.

When you compare to HA and maybe FT what do we get? We can protect against hardware and OS failure. We can protect against application failure, though the application integration isn't good yet. It will get a lot better soon, hopefully. When you patch the VM you are patching the only VM, but you can do snapshots so it's not as big of an issue. You can also use FT which has its own benefits in case of hardware failure (only 1 vCPU right now).

The downsides to MSCS are in complexity. The configuration and management is much more than VMware HA, which you will already be using for your other VMs anyway. It limits some configuration options. If you compare them side by side, IMHO, MSCS is not worth it except in rare circumstances. Most of my customers are migrating away from MSCS as fast as they can.
 
Any of your customers referenced in any publications documenting cases of companies making the switch from MSCS to VMware? Is Vsphere 5.0 supposed to have better application integration?
 
Software initators are frowned upon from a performance perspective ...
I think this would be a very use case specific statement. I'd bet good money on even a bunch of SMB VMware shops running on software iSCSI and the performance is just fine for their need. I personally get better performance with the Microsoft iSCSI initiator connected to an EQL array with Dell's MPIO driver than with a properly MPIO configured software iSCSI to the same array in vSphere (Enterprise Plus license). I had a long running ticket about that with EQL and they eventually closed it with the remark that the unit works as advertised. That's just as a side note.

we already have statements saying we will not support MS iSCSI software initiator
"Your existing hardware must be such and such model"
Using a combination of both seems to provide the best FT scenario but we're not going to support that either.
Who are you people and how come you are still in business considering all the things you don't do. ;)

On the one hand it's good to limit the technologies and deployments you do want to support just to cut down on your own costs and leverage expertise you have, one the other hand the client may just go and look for help elsewhere.
 
We have inventoried the hardware sold recently so we know we can stand behind the hardware specs as the majority of our existing customers will have that already in place. New customers will have to purchase new hardware, so that's also not an issue.

Market research has already been done as to which of our customers already have MSCS we know the risks. If we're not going to support MSCS, we're not going to support MSCS in VM..........it doesn't make sense.

Still waiting your pros for VMware over MSCS.
 
Netjunkie mentioned it already as did you in your original post as item 3, MSCS is far more complex than vSphere to set up and maintain. This does stand on it's own, it's not really necessary to utilize more dubious arguments in favor. Just look at it from a payroll burned on setup and operation and that's a pretty damn good reason right there.
 
Just look at it from a "when things go south, which one do I want to troubleshoot?" perspective. When I was a Network Manager we moved from single Exchange 2K3 to a MSCS configuration. Every outage we took over the next 2 years was MSCS related, not Exchange. I'd never do it again and almost every customer we have with MSCS has gotten rid of it when they virtualized those systems.
 
Netjunkie mentioned it already as did you in your original post as item 3, MSCS is far more complex than vSphere to set up and maintain. This does stand on it's own, it's not really necessary to utilize more dubious arguments in favor. Just look at it from a payroll burned on setup and operation and that's a pretty damn good reason right there.

Since you're an extreme expert I thought you could add to his recommendations, but thanks. When telling people that their existing product needs replaced, usually having more than just 1 argument helps to justify your cause.

Just look at it from a "when things go south, which one do I want to troubleshoot?" perspective. When I was a Network Manager we moved from single Exchange 2K3 to a MSCS configuration. Every outage we took over the next 2 years was MSCS related, not Exchange. I'd never do it again and almost every customer we have with MSCS has gotten rid of it when they virtualized those systems.

Thanks NetJunkie, the only problem we have is that we pushed MSCS because we hadn't yet pased 510k for virtualization, so now we gotta go back and explain why we want to switch these accounts over.
 
Stupid question but what uptime does VMware FT state it supports. I assume this predicted uptime supports the business SLA / KPI's for the application being hosted - all this technology talk is fine but I hope one doesn't forget that you're underpinning a contractual commitment. :)

I've seen MSCS cluster papers claiming 99.999% uptime -whether that is true or not I have no idea but I've put a fair few in and they've never failed. I do hate them though cos yeah they are a terrible pain to support :)

Personally, if I had the choice I'd probably go for a Stratus server rather than any of the above solutions - though I haven't seen them used on VMware to be honest.

On the post with the points, I've added some comments below. They might not be what you want to hear but you need to be "honest" rather than come up with reasons that are easy bounced.

Point 3 - true but MSCS clusters (or whatever the new name is now) is far easier due to the verification wizard (if you want a real trial in pain though try setting one up on Windows Core - a half arsed attempt if ever there was one)

Point 6 - you can have more than 2 nodes in a cluster.... (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/288778)
Point 7 - same with the ESX storage?
Point 9 - yes but as others point out on the flip side this is actually an advantage that gains you that little bit more of uptime (potentially - IF you need it)
Point 10 - dont understand this one - buy cluster components from MS HCL and you shoudl be ok?
Point 11 - incorrect, refer to support doc above for example
Point 12 - incorrect, both should be resilient to the loss of a single node. I suppose a MS cluster should be able to cope with more losses in theory (to be honest I've only ever done dual nodes)
Point 13 - this is probably true as you still need Enterprise / Datacenter OS to run a cluster and you need to license each node. On the other hand, buy an Enterprise license and you get 4 "free" Windows virtual licenses and maybe you need Ent anyway. But I tend to agree with this statement for what its worth.
Point 14 - notwithstanding the complexity of MSCS its pretty much the same process. I dont know VMware FT that well so maybe someone can confirm whether its 1:1 sync across 2 nodes or it can handle more (I always thought it was the former but probably wrong!)

Hope this helps
 
Since you're an extreme expert ...
Nah, I am just extremely opinionated. ;)
Also, KISS works, no reason to make justifications more complex than they need to be, more "talking points" do not necessarily lead to better decisions. That's the point I tried to make a couple of times already.
 
Stupid question but what uptime does VMware FT state it supports. I assume this predicted uptime supports the business SLA / KPI's for the application being hosted - all this technology talk is fine but I hope one doesn't forget that you're underpinning a contractual commitment. :)

I've seen MSCS cluster papers claiming 99.999% uptime -whether that is true or not I have no idea but I've put a fair few in and they've never failed. I do hate them though cos yeah they are a terrible pain to support :)

Personally, if I had the choice I'd probably go for a Stratus server rather than any of the above solutions - though I haven't seen them used on VMware to be honest.

On the post with the points, I've added some comments below. They might not be what you want to hear but you need to be "honest" rather than come up with reasons that are easy bounced.

Point 3 - true but MSCS clusters (or whatever the new name is now) is far easier due to the verification wizard (if you want a real trial in pain though try setting one up on Windows Core - a half arsed attempt if ever there was one)

Point 6 - you can have more than 2 nodes in a cluster.... (http://support.microsoft.com/kb/288778)
Point 7 - same with the ESX storage?
Point 9 - yes but as others point out on the flip side this is actually an advantage that gains you that little bit more of uptime (potentially - IF you need it)
Point 10 - dont understand this one - buy cluster components from MS HCL and you shoudl be ok?
Point 11 - incorrect, refer to support doc above for example
Point 12 - incorrect, both should be resilient to the loss of a single node. I suppose a MS cluster should be able to cope with more losses in theory (to be honest I've only ever done dual nodes)
Point 13 - this is probably true as you still need Enterprise / Datacenter OS to run a cluster and you need to license each node. On the other hand, buy an Enterprise license and you get 4 "free" Windows virtual licenses and maybe you need Ent anyway. But I tend to agree with this statement for what its worth.
Point 14 - notwithstanding the complexity of MSCS its pretty much the same process. I dont know VMware FT that well so maybe someone can confirm whether its 1:1 sync across 2 nodes or it can handle more (I always thought it was the former but probably wrong!)

Hope this helps

It definately helps and thanks. Basically this the banter we'll be going through and I'll need to know the key points where there isn't a strong enough response from the MSCS side, but we don't want to make arguments on outdated data, as you've pointed out (unless the account's cluster is on Server 2003, where the argument will still be valid..........which actually covers all of our accounts).

3) You're not taking into account the fact that the application itself must also support MS clustering. We have a borg family of products that will all be integrated and each one that doesn't already support MSCS must be re-written to do so.

7) Storage Vmotion makes it easier to transfer live VM's to another datastore, so while it's not exactly FT, what does MSCS have in comparison for tranferring a running cluster to another datastore?

14) Loading VSphere on a new server and adding it to inventory is alot easier than setting up a MSCS node. Actually, depending on your Vsphere licensing, you can simply hot-deploy a new node (I haven't gone into detail on this and actually I think it's a new feature of Vsphere 5.0)
 
It definately helps and thanks. Basically this the banter we'll be going through and I'll need to know the key points where there isn't a strong enough response from the MSCS side, but we don't want to make arguments on outdated data, as you've pointed out (unless the account's cluster is on Server 2003, where the argument will still be valid..........which actually covers all of our accounts).

3) You're not taking into account the fact that the application itself must also support MS clustering. We have a borg family of products that will all be integrated and each one that doesn't already support MSCS must be re-written to do so.

7) Storage Vmotion makes it easier to transfer live VM's to another datastore, so while it's not exactly FT, what does MSCS have in comparison for tranferring a running cluster to another datastore?

14) Loading VSphere on a new server and adding it to inventory is alot easier than setting up a MSCS node. Actually, depending on your Vsphere licensing, you can simply hot-deploy a new node (I haven't gone into detail on this and actually I think it's a new feature of Vsphere 5.0)

No worries, I'm sure I'll learn something about FT out of all of this (my first try in production wasn't that successful!)

Some comments back to your comments :)

Point 3 - Somewhat true, most apps failover fine in the generic cluster type - its very easy to setup. (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa369166(v=VS.85).aspx). But to setup the app in the cluster, its normally a customised install that means you may well fall out of support from the vendor. This actually is a new point, the original nos 3 for me was defining the hosting platform as opposed to the supportability of apps.

Point 7 - the cluster manager failover snap-in is used - example of failing over a Hyper-V VM for comparison (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd759225.aspx) although note that this is not a great comparison as the two services are not equal in the vritual world. Its pretty easy to failover / failback services in a cluster.

Point 14 - may well be, adding a new node into an existing cluster should be easy - there is a wizard for it (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc730998.aspx) but I think VMware is easier.
 
No worries, I'm sure I'll learn something about FT out of all of this (my first try in production wasn't that successful!)

Some comments back to your comments :)

Point 3 - Somewhat true, most apps failover fine in the generic cluster type - its very easy to setup. (http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/aa369166(v=VS.85).aspx). But to setup the app in the cluster, its normally a customised install that means you may well fall out of support from the vendor. This actually is a new point, the original nos 3 for me was defining the hosting platform as opposed to the supportability of apps.

Point 7 - the cluster manager failover snap-in is used - example of failing over a Hyper-V VM for comparison (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd759225.aspx) although note that this is not a great comparison as the two services are not equal in the vritual world. Its pretty easy to failover / failback services in a cluster.

Point 14 - may well be, adding a new node into an existing cluster should be easy - there is a wizard for it (http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/cc730998.aspx) but I think VMware is easier.

Point 7 - for the comparison, we can't use Hyper V features: http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/library/dd759249.aspx

So live migration to another datastore on a 2003 MS Cluster isn't possible/easy compared to Vmotion. Thanks again for the feedback.
 
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Yeah, Hyper-V hasn't got any cool stuff like storage motion, although not sure you can mix that with FT - maybe in 5 you can :)

AFAIK "vanilla" vmotion is not changing the datastore, just the host that the VM is running on. A MSCS can do that fine and easy - its the storage motion bit where it would struggle! There will be some cool snapshotting stuff you could do, or perhaps go down another route using Neverfail / Doubletake (at added cost / expense etc). But forgetting Hyper-V, I do think you have more flexibility at the storage end with FT over apps hosted on MSCS platforms.
 
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