Virtualized desktops

[farscapesg1]

Anyone have any experience they want to share on virtualizing large number of desktops? Our CIO is really looking at wanting to go down the virtualized workstation path to cut down on hardware refresh costs, reduce patching overhead, standardization, etc. Basically he wants to take the existing systems and boot them up into a virtual environment so the backend servers are doing all the work, at least for the non-poweruser sytsems.

We've been looking into VMWare VDI as one option and we are going to install a demo in a test environment, but I wanted to see if anyone had any other suggestions or advice....

Considering we are looking at bout 10,000 devices spread out across several facilities (with a 1 GB MAN connection back to the data center) things could get a little difficult

 

[Berg0]

wow, 10k, nothing that large. I've looked into using it smaller scale, wasn't really economical due to the licensing costs, as well as hardware costs. Thin client really aren't cheap compared to low end workstation or desktop computers.

 

[farscapesg1]

That is what I keep telling the CIO, but I guess it will just have to wait until he sees the bottom line He has good intentions, especially since 90% of our users just need something that accesses the web and some very simple programs (not even MS Office).

 

[Shockey]

I know your thinking virtualization but what about terminal server(s)? for the simple web access and simple programs users.

 

[geiger]

VDI/Citrix etc. will still need some form of ThinClient. A decent Wyse terminal(aka NOT a S10) will run about 450-500 and are very vulnerable to hardware manufacturer desupport for future client releases.

Things to consider in your cost comparison. Concurrent user licensing of the desktop method(TS CALS, OS CALS, Citrix Licenses, View Desktop licenses).

 

[Demon10000]

As said above, you want a terminal server/citrix environment, not a VDI solution. I'd do something like this:

Standard User: Wyse WinCE device (buying 10k, you should be able to get them DIRT cheap). Give them their apps via Citrix.

Not quite a Power User: Wyse device, give them a desktop with Xen Desktop (doesn't matter what VDI solution you choose, they'll all plug into it)

Power User: Give them a full desktop with the citrix client and let them use apps both locally and from the citrix farm.


If you decide on the Wyse devices, make sure you stand up a Wyse Device Manager server BEFORE you roll any termianls out. Get your standard image on to them from the start!


I don't see 1:1 VDI as a solution for an enterprise for a cost cutting initiative. You're going to spend more money bumping up WAN connections and supporting the infrstructure than you will save. This is where Citrix really shines...

 

[swatbat]

wow, 10k, nothing that large. I've looked into using it smaller scale, wasn't really economical due to the licensing costs, as well as hardware costs. Thin client really aren't cheap compared to low end workstation or desktop computers.

Yea thin clients don't mean cost savings. Big push for them now is one more of control. By taking the software off the desktop you have more control over it. Upgrades are a lot easier as well since you can do software upgrades centrally.

For thin clients you have really 3 windows options. First is to do a full remote desktop session into a terminal server. This gives you a full desktop via the RDP server as well as the desktop on the thin client. You need a terminal server license for each client. Second option is with citrix which gives you this option as well as "seamless desktop". Pretty much the apps look like they are running on the local system even through each is done via rdp. This requires a citrix license which comes with a terminal server license. Third is using microsoft's version of seamless desktop which runs on server 2008. Pretty much gives you the big advantage of citrix without the extra licensing. Mind you citrix has tools for running it this way.

With thin clients you add at very least some kinda of terminal service license to each user. Licensing for most products will remain the same meaning that you still need an office license for each user or station. Some can be setup where only x number of users have access to a product meaning you could in theory order less licenses. That being said some cost more to run over terminal services.

Cost savings on hardware is a mix. Yes you can get thin clients cheaper in some cases over pcs(really you can get an xp station for about the same cost) but you have added overhead on the servers that have to run the apps. For 10k machines you will be adding a few terminal servers to cover such a load. Users requiring apps that need some power will need desktops. Basic stuff like a crm app, accounting software, office, etc will work fine over a thin client. Wouldn't want to run cad, image programs, etc over it.

Cost savings can come in on upkeep costs. Because the applications run on a terminal server you can upgrade the software once and all of a sudden it is upgraded on hundreds of machines. Since it is only installed on a few servers you don't have to worry about the issues of rolling out 10k installs. Also you have less risk of hardware failure on the client end in the sense that thin clients are less complex then a desktop pc. Many don't need cooling fans and most use solid state memory which holds up better then a hard drive with moving parts.

 

[madcoder]

...sounds like a case where your CIO really ought to be asking for a full scale business case calculation FIRST. From the sound of the first post, though, it could already be a "pet" project idea he has, and important facts get ignored to make the business case look good, just because he/she thinks it is a good idea, and once the project gets started has to save face.

 

[geiger]

This may be a case for application "virtualization". This is something you need to tread softly into.

One of our least favorite apps to publish likes to take an absolute shit into the AppData, thus crippling logon times. This app is a necessary evil given the nature of the app. so we have isolated it to it's own roaming cache and allowed Citrix to handle printer population.

Kudos to those that know this hell, aka absolute dumbshit programing.