Setting up a public computer lab and more from scratch

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wavewerx

Limp Gawd
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Oct 8, 2008
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A good friend of mine has come to me and another friend of ours to setup his entire network from absolute scratch. He's an average computer user - anything past web browsing and loading his iPod is over his head - so it's up to me and my buddy to run the entire show. His ministry is opening up a small college in a very small town, first with a coffee shop.The town, with literally only one stoplight, is the crossroads for about 6 or 7 other smaller towns. Later after the coffee shop is self-sufficient enough they'll be focusing on the actual college - classroom computers, media arts presentations, broadcasting classes to other locations, so on and so forth...

The first goal of this project and network is to setup a coffee shop and computer lab to get the youth and others interested. There's going to be a dozen or so computers there + a mini-FedEx/Kinko's of sorts. All that they have now are a couple of homebuilt client machines and a windows xp box loaded with few hard drives for non-automated backup.

Budget really isn't a issue... Upfront I'm planning on getting them setup with a domain controller and AD on one machine, file server on another, and untangle or another firewall on a third machine. Perhaps another to start as an application server (only would deploy Office 2007 to the lab right now). If not an application server, then another server for a test network for programs and network changes before going live. There's going to be huge growth and this network will serve as a base model for more to be copied after.

Along with the servers, we'll need to purchase the 12+ computers to be used in the lab. Ghost and Steadystate and / or Deepfreeze will quickly become my best friends I can only assume.

I'm looking at the Dell Vostro mini's as the machines in the lab, Dell PowerEdges for the server end.

Cabling as already been run through the building and we'll have sufficient power. Internet access is something I haven't heard back on yet. It's practically BFE so I'm wondering what we'll get.

I'm basically using this thread as a bit of a log and a place to get some feedback as I dive into this. I've walked into already running small business networks and maintained them but haven't had to or had a chance to start from scratch. How am I looking so far?

Any comments or questions, any "Hey don't for get this!" or "That's dumb, you should do this instead!" are more than welcome. Pictures and stories are to come!
 
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I would consider looking into VMware workstation or maybe even ESX. Virtualization is awesome for lab environments.
 
Vostro's can only be purchased in Qty's of 5 or less- so you'll need to look at a different way to go for the workstations. If this is your first foray into some hardware purchasing but you plan on doing more later I woulds standardize on one vendor, then establish an account with then (or whoever is going to be doing the buying should) that way you can get better pricing than straight off the web.
 
SteadyState is awesome. Since you're looking at huge growth, I haven't found a way to centrally manage SteadyState, though, so that might be a deal-breaker.
 
capnstabn said:
I would consider looking into VMware workstation or maybe even ESX. Virtualization is awesome for lab environments.
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Could you elaborate on this a little please? Do you mean virtualizing the client machines?

StarTrek4U said:
Vostro's can only be purchased in Qty's of 5 or less- so you'll need to look at a different way to go for the workstations. If this is your first foray into some hardware purchasing but you plan on doing more later I woulds standardize on one vendor, then establish an account with then (or whoever is going to be doing the buying should) that way you can get better pricing than straight off the web.
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Thanks, I didn't know that! That moves me to the Optiplex line... unless there are other suggestions?

TechieSooner said:
SteadyState is awesome. Since you're looking at huge growth, I haven't found a way to centrally manage SteadyState, though, so that might be a deal-breaker.
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What about an image with SteadyState already on it?
 
What will the domain be used for?

Can SteadyState be used in a domain environment?

And why 3 servers for 10 machines?

What I would do... Optiplex machines with the 22" monitor deal that keeps floating around, comes out to about 700 with XP, or even outlet machines to save money. The Vostro deals haven't been so great lately, but you can also just make 2 orders to get teh machines you need. I would stick to desktop cases if you can and just put em below the monitors or get the All in One stand with locks to keep stuff from walking off.

Steadystate or Deepfreeze depending on which one works better in domain and can be managed.

Untangle sounds good with the webfilter (either free one or paid one) and maybe also use OpenDNS to blcok stuff.
 
wavewerx said:
Could you elaborate on this a little please? Do you mean virtualizing the client machines?
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I honestly don't think he read your actual post. He read "lab" as in a testing environment, and then just suggested Virtualization. Second time today the guy hasn't read the post he's responding to, I have no the hell clue why...............


wavewerx said:
Thanks, I didn't know that! That moves me to the Optiplex line... unless there are other suggestions?
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That's what I use. Really had no problems. I go with the regular tower model, cheaper and easier to replace parts and stuff, I can put multiple expansion cards in with no problem, etc.
I think mine cost me about $1,000/pop. But that's with the good warranty and Office loaded on each one.

wavewerx said:
What about an image with SteadyState already on it?
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I guess you could, but you'd have to change SIDs somehow, not sure how that'd all work out...

Ideally, you can manage SteadyState from a server, but I have never seen a way to do that yet.
 
You could ESXi the servers on one machine.

Another idea as opposed to going with full all-out workstations, thin clients and a terminal server. If you went that route, I'd ESXi untangle and the AD/DC server then go with a beefy server for the terminal server. With a terminal server, you only have 1 machine to admin.

Either way, no need to have 3 physical servers, your AD/DC server can do file serving also. Just drop a disk in dedicated to just files, and run nightly backups.
 
TechieSooner said:
I honestly don't think he read your actual post. He read "lab" as in a testing environment, and then just suggested Virtualization. Second time today the guy hasn't read the post he's responding to, I have no the hell clue why...............

The OP clearly mentions setting up a server/test network. VM workstation would be ideal for testing changes on several of the applications he mentioned. I recommended ESX simply because it would be very cost effective in this environment. I would bet many of these servers will be very under utilized.
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capnstabn said:
TechieSooner said:
I honestly don't think he read your actual post. He read "lab" as in a testing environment, and then just suggested Virtualization. Second time today the guy hasn't read the post he's responding to, I have no the hell clue why...............

The OP clearly mentions setting up a server/test network. VM workstation would be ideal for testing changes on several of the applications he mentioned. I recommended ESX simply because it would be very cost effective in this environment. I would bet many of these servers will be very under utilized.
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I agree.
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sc0tty8 said:
You could ESXi the servers on one machine.

Another idea as opposed to going with full all-out workstations, thin clients and a terminal server. If you went that route, I'd ESXi untangle and the AD/DC server then go with a beefy server for the terminal server. With a terminal server, you only have 1 machine to admin.

Either way, no need to have 3 physical servers, your AD/DC server can do file serving also. Just drop a disk in dedicated to just files, and run nightly backups.
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Thanks for the responses guys!

The computer lab and media center are only one part of this. I'm practically networking up the entire town - his ministry bought about 1/3 of the town - yeah, it's that tiny. I'll be setting up an administration building with a few office machines and another building with another computer lab. Ideally I want to keep all the servers and hardware at the admin building. That's why I'm looking at a beefy AD/DC to look forward to that development - VPN tunneling into the other buildings and networks.

Typing this out has made me see what I need to do upfront - Computer lab - so that's where my focus is at but the setting up of the other buildings is a very close project as well.

I've only played with virtual machines a baby bit and TS even less. I think I'd definitely need some one to hold my hand through that process though.To get my feet wet with the idea, what do thin clients and a TS entail?
 
TechieSooner said:
I guess you could, but you'd have to change SIDs somehow, not sure how that'd all work out...

Ideally, you can manage SteadyState from a server, but I have never seen a way to do that yet.
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Install SteadyState, don't configure it or enable any of its features, run sysprep (set to regenerate SID), then image it.

As long as SteadyState is not enabled or configured before creating the image, it works fine. Having active disk protection or any managed profiles tends to wreck the image, especially for something on a domain. Since SS profiles and settings can be exported, you just import the profile into every machine after imaging, reset some other settings, turn disk protection on if you're using it, and off you go.

SteadyState obeys GPO, and some GPO's will overrule SteadyState settings. It's not the ideal way to manage it, but in small numbers (combined with using a single profile), its not a huge pain
 
I do know, NewSID is a quicker and easier fix than sysprep for clones in workgroups and dealing with local accounts, and the OP is committed to running a domain controller - a sysprep reseal would not only regenerate (or let them specify) new SIDs, but also let them set PC name and domain options on initial boot....or is there something else about NSID that I missed?
 
Cax6ton said:
I do know, NewSID is a quicker and easier fix than sysprep for clones in workgroups and dealing with local accounts, and the OP is committed to running a domain controller - a sysprep reseal would not only regenerate (or let them specify) new SIDs, but also let them set PC name and domain options on initial boot....or is there something else about NSID that I missed?
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NewSid will not set the domain properties, but will rename the machine when generating the SID. We are usually ghosting machines before they ever hit the domain. The OP is starting from scratch so this might be the plan of attack for him. Get the machines setup the way they want before joining them to the domain. Ghost, NewSID (Rename Machine during the run of NewSID) and then join to the domain before / after putting them where they will reside in the computer lab. Since this is a lab starting from Square 1 the OP and his buddy will not be out much time as if this was lets say a hardware replacement.
 
Calvin...

So if I create myself a TrueImage image, load all my apps onto it (basically do everything except setup the user's account), I can load this onto new machines, and run NewSID before I join it to the domain?

I've just never gotten into this imaging stuff. Just not had a real need to do so yet.
 
Techie,

I honestly have never used TrueImage, so I can't give you a true yes or no answer. HOWEVER I can tell you that we are doing this with Ghost today in the following setups:

1. Unbox Machine and set it up (Install Office 2007, Hospitals HIS system, RAdmin (Screen Sharing Software)
2. Ghost the "master" machine
3. Load onto 2nd, 3rd, 4th, you get the point
4. Run NewSID and rename the machine appropriately
5. Join Domain and finish domain config appropriately.

When I say finish domain config the only thing we have to do is configure radmin to use ad authentication for the screen sharing and install symantec end point. We are out maybe 10 minutes after step 5 because of some things we have to do.

Again this is with ghost so I'm hoping someone who has used TrueImage can speak up and say if the process could be the same or if there is some little difference in the process
 
calvinj said:
Techie,

I honestly have never used TrueImage, so I can't give you a true yes or no answer. HOWEVER I can tell you that we are doing this with Ghost today in the following setups:

1. Unbox Machine and set it up (Install Office 2007, Hospitals HIS system, RAdmin (Screen Sharing Software)
2. Ghost the "master" machine
3. Load onto 2nd, 3rd, 4th, you get the point
4. Run NewSID and rename the machine appropriately
5. Join Domain and finish domain config appropriately.

When I say finish domain config the only thing we have to do is configure radmin to use ad authentication for the screen sharing and install symantec end point. We are out maybe 10 minutes after step 5 because of some things we have to do.

Again this is with ghost so I'm hoping someone who has used TrueImage can speak up and say if the process could be the same or if there is some little difference in the process
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What about Windows/Office activations? Do you have a VLK?
That's been one of the reasons I haven't done this in the past is no VLK.

And are all your machines the same hardware configuration?
 
TechieSooner said:
What about Windows/Office activations? Do you have a VLK?
That's been one of the reasons I haven't done this in the past is no VLK.

And are all your machines the same hardware configuration?
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Office is MOLP and activates just fine.

Most machines are ordered the same hardware config to make it easier. I know ghost has an option to go from different hardware, but I have not used it yet. Never had a reason at this point since the machines are all alike when ordered
 
All of this seems slightly confusing..... especially

The computer lab and media center are only one part of this. I'm practically networking up the entire town - his ministry bought about 1/3 of the town - yeah, it's that tiny. I'll be setting up an administration building with a few office machines and another building with another computer lab. Ideally I want to keep all the servers and hardware at the admin building. That's why I'm looking at a beefy AD/DC to look forward to that development - VPN tunneling into the other buildings and networks.
Click to expand...

In a matter of a few posts you've gone from a small coffee shop all the way to a huge project (which you are probably over estimating on) that isn't happening all of a sudden.

We are currently opening a new campus for the school I work at in less then 3 months. The one good thing about this place is we are really good at project planning and project management.

My main suggestion for you is to lay out this current project and the future projects as phases.

Phase 1 - Computer Lab - Details - Deliverable Date - Est Cost - etc....
Phase 2 - Admin Building - etc....

Right now you have a ton of information and ideas and it lacks a clear and defined plan, also unless I read this wrong budget isn't that much of an issue and I think that to me is a huge red flag.

I'd suggest spending some time and planning it all out, if you have trouble with that pick up a project mgt book for help. If you can then post the project plan on here I'm sure plenty of us would be happy to comment on it, but currently I think you are too disorganized to really get the most out of the advice your being given.
 
Just a minor bump....

KarFai said:
All of this seems slightly confusing..... especially



In a matter of a few posts you've gone from a small coffee shop all the way to a huge project (which you are probably over estimating on) that isn't happening all of a sudden.

We are currently opening a new campus for the school I work at in less then 3 months. The one good thing about this place is we are really good at project planning and project management.

My main suggestion for you is to lay out this current project and the future projects as phases.

Phase 1 - Computer Lab - Details - Deliverable Date - Est Cost - etc....
Phase 2 - Admin Building - etc....

Right now you have a ton of information and ideas and it lacks a clear and defined plan, also unless I read this wrong budget isn't that much of an issue and I think that to me is a huge red flag.

I'd suggest spending some time and planning it all out, if you have trouble with that pick up a project mgt book for help. If you can then post the project plan on here I'm sure plenty of us would be happy to comment on it, but currently I think you are too disorganized to really get the most out of the advice your being given.
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You've hit the nail on the head on exactly how I feel... The project's been on pause due to construction woes at the site. I'll get back in a few days after I visit the site this week with more of an outlined plan and goals.
 
wavewerx said:
Just a minor bump....



You've hit the nail on the head on exactly how I feel... The project's been on pause due to construction woes at the site. I'll get back in a few days after I visit the site this week with more of an outlined plan and goals.
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and pictures
 
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