R520 does 10k+ in 3Dmark'05...

[Terra]

Terra, those are all overclocked cards, and systems. Who knows if the one the Inq is claiming broke 10k is. You cant compare them.

Sure I can?
They ARE having a +10K preformance..as we speak...
But if you think that I am wrong would don't you tell Futuremark that their HAll of Fame is flawed as they allowed OC'ed cards in that list

But bringing OC into my purely preformance conclusion, is something called a "strawman attack":
Fallacy: Straw Man

Description of Straw Man
The Straw Man fallacy is committed when a person simply ignores a person's actual position and substitutes a distorted, exaggerated or misrepresented version of that position. This sort of "reasoning" has the following pattern:


Person A has position X.
Person B presents position Y (which is a distorted version of X).
Person B attacks position Y.
Therefore X is false/incorrect/flawed.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because attacking a distorted version of a position simply does not constitute an attack on the position itself. One might as well expect an attack on a poor drawing of a person to hurt the person.

Examples of Straw Man

Prof. Jones: "The university just cut our yearly budget by $10,000."
Prof. Smith: "What are we going to do?"
Prof. Brown: "I think we should eliminate one of the teaching assistant positions. That would take care of it."
Prof. Jones: "We could reduce our scheduled raises instead."
Prof. Brown: " I can't understand why you want to bleed us dry like that, Jones."

"Senator Jones says that we should not fund the attack submarine program. I disagree entirely. I can't understand why he wants to leave us defenseless like that."

Bill and Jill are arguing about cleaning out their closets:
Jill: "We should clean out the closets. They are getting a bit messy."
Bill: "Why, we just went through those closets last year. Do we have to clean them out everyday?"
Jill: "I never said anything about cleaning them out every day. You just want too keep all your junk forever, which is just ridiculous."

This thread was started purely about the "+10K 3Dmark score", nothing about OC...
But I give you an "A" for your derailing attempt

Terra - And a "strawman attack" is BAD debating...

 

[fallguy]

Its not a derailing attemps. It was on topic. Nor did I say that the scores on Futuremark shouldnt be there. You are also not funny, but good try.

The systems you showed were overclocked. You claimed since they got higher than 10k, that the R520 wont be faster than a SLI 6800U system. All I am saying is that perhaps whoever came up with this "news" tested with everything at stock speeds, system and video cards. Which would cut down the SLI scores a lot. If you cant understand that, then oh well.

 

[Terra]

The systems you showed were overclocked. You claimed since they got higher than 10k, that the R520 wont be faster than a SLI 6800U system. All I am saying is that perhaps whoever came up with this "news" tested with everything at stock speeds, system and video cards. Which would cut down the SLI scores a lot. If you cant understand that, then oh well.

Please show me where is stated that that test was done with no OC?
You don't know it, and neither do I
So your argument is invalid...

Terra - Again...strawman

 

[fallguy]

Show me where the test was done at all? Its all rumor, with a crappy benchmark to start with. I have never seen a time, when a company tells how fast their product is for the everyman, by overclocking it, and the system however. You can drop it with the name calling, and try to act mature though, thanks.

 

[Terra]

Show me where the test was done at all?

Don't attack me for bring facts(Real world SLI Preformance) into this thread.
A second ago, you had no problem talking about the test..now you do?
Your argumentation is lacking logic, sorry.

Its all rumor, with a crappy benchmark to start with.

Then why do you post, and attack my real-life-preformance numbers?!

I have never seen a time, when a company tells how fast their product is for the everyman, by overclocking it, and the system however.

I have seen a MOBO rewiev, where the reviewer had to use custom made software, in order to establish the readings(the Cleverly hidden OC) where the manufator did a OC(Anyone else remember this, think it was at Tom's?), with out informing about it
But this is besides the point...we are still talking about +10K in 3Dmark 05 right?

You can drop it with the name calling, and try to act mature though, thanks

I never called you any names?
Infact you atttack my person more than I do in this thread
I called you ARGUMENTS for a "Strawman attack", not you...
There IS a difference

Terra - Please dont do another "strawman "attack" by using false arguments against me, thx

 

[fallguy]

You twist things your way more than empty. Im done with this.

 

[R1ckCa1n]

Come on Fallguy, the likes of Terra will only agree if it portrays NV in a good light OR ATI in a bad light.

 

[Terra]

You twist things your way more than empty.

Nice..a personal attack
And you even drag a third party into this

Im done with this.

So am I.

Terra - I don't do personal attacks, but I have figured out how to use the ignore function...

 

[trinibwoy]

Come on Fallguy, the likes of Terra will only agree if it portrays NV in a good light OR ATI in a bad light.

Huh? Terra put forth an argument that fallguy was unable to sufficiently counter. So because of that (s)he's a fan boy? Maybe fallguy needs to work on his logic/debating skills a bit?

 

[CrimandEvil]

Nice..a personal attack
And you even drag a third party into this

Thanks FallGuy for reminding me why I hardly come into the video card subforum.

Anyways....
Good to see that the R520 isn't all smoke and mirrors (kind of worried since it wasn't at Computex) but I'll take issue with it since this is from the Inq.

Mmmm.. CrossFired R520s.....</drool>

 

[CrimandEvil]

Huh? Terra put forth an argument that fallguy was unable to sufficiently counter. So because of that (s)he's a fan boy? Maybe fallguy needs to work on his logic/debating skills a bit?

You'll notice that Rick and FallGuy are rather "agressive" when it comes to defending ATI and bashing NV, usually this involves naming calling..

 

[Terra]

So because of that (s)he's a fan boy?

It's a he

Terra - Latin for dirt/earth

 

[trinibwoy]

It's a he

Terra - Latin for dirt/earth

Ah, gotcha! I wish my name meant something

 

[Terra]

Come on Fallguy, the likes of Terra will only agree if it portrays NV in a good light OR ATI in a bad light.

Nice..a personal attack more

I guess I should just throw out my ATi 9800Pro, in order to justify your "argument"
The last 3 cards I have owned are:

Geforce Ti4600(got it BEFORE the Radeon 9700 was released)
Radeon 9800Pro(better than the FX5800)
Geforce 6800GT

Does that fit the "profile" of a F-Boy

Terra - But then again, I would be better off with my 3. ignore...

 

[Terra]

Ah, gotcha! I wish my name meant something

The name Terra, can give me "problems"..people often mistake me for a woman(And my GF never lets a chance to point that out to me *L*), so you shouldn't be to unhappy with your name...

Terra - BTW. I have seen you at Anandtech's forum too, so your name does give you an "identity"

 

[fallguy]

Huh? Terra put forth an argument that fallguy was unable to sufficiently counter. So because of that (s)he's a fan boy? Maybe fallguy needs to work on his logic/debating skills a bit?

Actually, what I did was bring to the table that we dont know if the system in question with the alleged 10k score was overclocked. And that the scores he mentioned where. And said you shouldnt compare a overclocked score, to a score that we have no idea if it is overclocked to get. Or that it is even real, seeing how its on the Inq.

Common sense would tell us that the alleged 10k score of the R520 was not overclocked? Why? Because a overclocked X850 got a 9600k score. Wouldnt a next gen card thats overclocked get at least more than 400 points higher? And that when showing off a card, thats going to be sold, why would they show a overclocked score?

Terra, those are all overclocked cards, and systems. Who knows if the one the Inq is claiming broke 10k is. You cant compare them.

^ My first post, did you even see his response? Pure rambling, thats off topic. After saying I went off topic.

But bringing OC into my purely preformance conclusion, is something called a "strawman attack":

Here he says me bringing overclocking into his "purely preformance conclusion" is wrong, when his scores he brought are overclocked.

Why even get worked up over this? Its all rumor, and 3dmark means nothing compared to games.

I also did not do any sort of a "personal attack". I said he twists words (he does), and compared him to another poster on these boards. Since they both have the same posting habits.

Since he has me on ignore, he shouldnt respond to this.

Now this is off topic, and Im officially done. If you wish to contine this off topic gutter chat, feel free to PM me.

 

[trinibwoy]

The name Terra, can give me "problems"..people often mistake me for a woman(And my GF never lets a chance to point that out to me *L*), so you shouldn't be to unhappy with your name...

Terra - BTW. I have seen you at Anandtech's forum too, so your name does give you an "identity"

Oh yeah having a girl's name must suck Yeah my usual hangout is B3D but I've started hanging out at AT and [H] as well to soak up as much of the next generation hype as possible

 

[trinibwoy]

Actually, what I did was bring to the table that we dont know if the system in question with the alleged 10k score was overclocked. And that the scores he mentioned where. And said you shouldnt compare a overclocked score, to a score that we have no idea if it is overclocked to get.

I think his point was that there are people out there right now enjoying R520 performance (at least according to 3dmark). He made no claim as to whether the cards were stock or not - the fact is that SLI offered its adopters next generation (3dmark) performance. You're the one who entered the stock/overclocked argument which brought up the whole "strawman attack" rebuttal. It's actually quite common on these boards when people aren't able to argue a topic as is without twisting the premise in order to provide themselves with some ammunition.

 

[Cyrilix]

well if two ultras is bottlenecked by my fx-55, i cant imagine two r520s not being seriously bottlenecked by a cpu that is out in the next 6 months. Id still take it though

You only have that bottleneck at low resolutions and low details. At high resolutions and details, the CPU becomes irrelevant, unless the CPU itself cannot handle the minimum requirements of the game.

whoop de damn doo. ill bet its horribly CPU bottlenecked in actual games.

Again, that is simply false, since you have to understand the concept of bottlenecking. If you set it to high resolutions/details, more work will have to be done on the graphics card therefore it will result in lower frame rates. The CPU can still handle higher frame rates, but with the graphics card being unable to output so many frame rates, it will run at what the graphics card can give you. Bottlenecking is just reversing the roles of the video card and the CPU, in my previous example where your details are so low that the CPU cannot process the amount of frames the video card can handle.

 

[HighTest]

I think this 3dmark05 results that the Inq. are reporting may be gimped info.

1. I can't find R520 results anywhere on the Futuremark ORB. Why not?

2. Look that this more credible source of info than the Inq. http://www.forbes.com/markets/2005/06/07/0607automarketscan10.html?partner=yahootix&referrer= People make money on this information and it better be spot on or there are lawsuits involved for example. Never heard of the same in regards to the National Inquirer of the PC world.

Delays due to possible design flaw? Doesn't sound good at all folks. Looks like SLI'd G70's will own Futuremark scores long before CrossFire'd R520's will.

 

[FrgMstr]

enough off topic bickering....