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Plasma vs. LCD vs. DLP?

The ISF is an organization where people learn to calibrate video equipment. Here is a link to the site: ISF These people calibrate video devices to a much lower tolerance than the manufacturers are willing to do. Toshiba for instance is not going to spend four hours calibrating each HDTV. It would cut into the profits too much. Also shipping could affect the calibration and convergence. The guy who came to my house cleaned the main mirror inside the tv. He then cleaned all of the optics and adjusted the focus of each crt gun. He then set the gray scale on the tv using some software and a calibration device. He then asked me when I do most of my viewing. I told him in the evenings after dark. So he covered the tv with a black tarp and went inside it with his equipment. This was an attempt to set up the tv according to the amount of ambient light in the room during normal viewing. He used his laptop and equipment to measure the color temperature of each color and adjust accordingly. Keep in mind the tv has different inputs so each one had to be configured independently. For my set he did two inputs. Then he worked on improving the convergence of the different crt guns. This would be much easier or almost not needed on a DLP set. By time time he got done the picture looked fantastic!!! The reds are real red and the blacks are real black. I also have two settings now. One mode is optimized for viewing during the day and one is optimized for night time viewing. All of this took a little over 4 hours. I watched him do the whole thing.
 
Greenwit said:
Yes....and I don't think resolution has anything to do with SDE. You are still using the same pixels and filler between pixels. On the other hand, the better the signal (higher resolution), the easier it is to spot anomolies in the image (ie, SDE).
Click to expand...

Resolution has everything to do with SDE.

First of all LCDs, Plasma and DLP have a fixed (native) resolution, any other resolution has to be up/down scaled. For example the Sanyo PLV-Z3 HDTV LCD projector has a native resolution of 1280x720, so DVDs are upscaled to fit and 1080i is downscaled.

Now, the SDE is diminished with a native higher resolution like 1280x720, simply because the pixels and spaces between them are smaller.
 
I would go DLP, LCD, then Plasma, if money isn't an option. DLP gives you the best picture quality with high def, you actually have blacks, and they last a lot longer than Plasma. LCD gives you a good picture, especially in low like or dark viewing conditions. Plasma I'm not impressed with, picture burn in, and dimming after a year doesn't impress me, I'll just buy a high end CRT for that. The rainbow and screen door affects are only noticable on low end equip, find a friend has any of these to judge, don't goto best buy or circuit city to view, they have been running constantly and abused. My rule of thumb for any display though is you should only expect to have it for 3 to 6 years.....
 
Happy Hopping said:
What is Screen door effect on LCD?

I agree w/ you that plasma has the best pic. quality. But how long can it last? I don't want to spend a few thousand on a new screen every few years? The color fades away.

In fact, I was told that plasma is heading towards the end of the road and can be obsolete w/i the next few years due to color fading RAPIDLY.
Click to expand...

That is very true, industry is moving away from plasma because of burn in, color fading, and dimming.
 
Stoly said:
Resolution has everything to do with SDE.

First of all LCDs, Plasma and DLP have a fixed (native) resolution, any other resolution has to be up/down scaled. For example the Sanyo PLV-Z3 HDTV LCD projector has a native resolution of 1280x720, so DVDs are upscaled to fit and 1080i is downscaled.

Now, the SDE is diminished with a native higher resolution like 1280x720, simply because the pixels and spaces between them are smaller.
Click to expand...

The pixels and spaces between them *don't* change. That's why plasmas, lcds, dlps are referred to as a 'fixed pixel' design. Whether you are displaying 480i or 1080i all the pixels are lit (assuming you are filling the screen with image and not using black bars). Whether you are seeing a high quality image or low def image, the 'screen door' remains the same. The screen door being the filler between pixels.
 
Yeah, no matter what res an LCD is using, the actual distance between pixels won't change, because the pixel are physically on the panel, they are what emits the light, they cannot move. This is why there is a screen door affect, and why LCDs look bad when not in their native res.
 
FlatLine84 said:
I would go DLP, LCD, then Plasma, if money isn't an option. DLP gives you the best picture quality with high def, you actually have blacks, and they last a lot longer than Plasma. LCD gives you a good picture, especially in low like or dark viewing conditions. Plasma I'm not impressed with, picture burn in, and dimming after a year doesn't impress me, I'll just buy a high end CRT for that. The rainbow and screen door affects are only noticable on low end equip, find a friend has any of these to judge, don't goto best buy or circuit city to view, they have been running constantly and abused. My rule of thumb for any display though is you should only expect to have it for 3 to 6 years.....
Click to expand...

Blacks on DLPs are worse than plasmas. Black pecking order is CRT>plasma>DLP>LCD. That's pretty well recognized.

LCDs look the *worst* in low light conditions. Why? Because in low light conditions blacks and their gradations are more easily discerned than in bright light conditions. It's in the dark light that you will more easily see banding, discoloration, and false contouring in blacks. LCD blacks look their worst in the dark.....just as it is true that LCD computer monitors look worst in the dark.

Plasmas don't burn in.

Plasmas don't dim after a year.

Rainbows are independent of input quality. Most people see them more easily with black and white intensive films and source material.
 
Greenwit said:
Plasmas don't burn in.

Plasmas don't dim after a year.
Click to expand...

Please, seriously tell me of a Plasma that doesn't do this, because that is a very untrue statement.
 
FlatLine84 said:
I would go DLP, LCD, then Plasma, if money isn't an option. DLP gives you the best picture quality with high def, you actually have blacks, and they last a lot longer than Plasma. LCD gives you a good picture, especially in low like or dark viewing conditions. Plasma I'm not impressed with, picture burn in, and dimming after a year doesn't impress me, I'll just buy a high end CRT for that. The rainbow and screen door affects are only noticable on low end equip, find a friend has any of these to judge, don't goto best buy or circuit city to view, they have been running constantly and abused. My rule of thumb for any display though is you should only expect to have it for 3 to 6 years.....
Click to expand...

I’m not at all sure where you got your information but just the opposite it true. Plasma half life is shown to be over twice as long as a high end CRT meaning you can expect at least 4 to 5 years before the set is “measurably” dimmer, not necessarily noticeably dimmer.

DLP “CAN” give a great picture depending on who the builder might be. Samsung is good but compare it to a Mitsubishi and you probably won’t buy the Samsung. The DLP issue is similar to the LCD projector issue; the picture is only as good as the brightness of the bulb, which has a horrible half-life, at least currently.
 
BillR said:
I’m not at all sure where you got your information but just the opposite it true. Plasma half life is shown to be over twice as long as a high end CRT meaning you can expect at least 4 to 5 years before the set is “measurably” dimmer, not necessarily noticeably dimmer.

DLP “CAN” give a great picture depending on who the builder might be. Samsung is good but compare it to a Mitsubishi and you probably won’t buy the Samsung. The DLP issue is similar to the LCD projector issue; the picture is only as good as the brightness of the bulb, which has a horrible half-life, at least currently.
Click to expand...

Other than repairing different sets for people, my only experience with Plasma were these samsung panels which we installed at our college to give updates to students and so forth, we had them less than a year and they were noticeably dimmer, and picture burn in was extremely apparent. Perhaps samsung doesn't make good plasma displays?
 
lol, the widely varied opinions in this thread do NOT make it any easier to buy a RPTV.. in fact it makes it worse, noone can agree on anything! Anyone actually have links to sites with factual data on the pro's and con's of each technology?

:)
 
I used www.cnet.com a lot when I was doing my research on tv's. The biggest problem is that the tv companies are consistently coming out with new technology that fixes older problems.

Also there may be big discrepencies between low-end models and high-end models. Newer name brand plasmas are advertising that they are burn-in resistant. Samsung has "Auto Pixel Shift" to prevent burn-in. While cheaper lesser brand names may not have any form of burn-in protection. Vizio's 50" plasma has a "wipe" feature which the consumer is supposed to run every once in a while to help prevent burn in.

When DLP's first came out there was a lot of remarks about rainbow effect. The newer generation sets use faster mirrors and better color wheels, which help the rainbow effect. Some people may still be able to see it in certain places but it's not mentioned nearly as much as when the first gen's came out.
 
Greenwit said:
The pixels and spaces between them *don't* change. That's why plasmas, lcds, dlps are referred to as a 'fixed pixel' design. Whether you are displaying 480i or 1080i all the pixels are lit (assuming you are filling the screen with image and not using black bars). Whether you are seeing a high quality image or low def image, the 'screen door' remains the same. The screen door being the filler between pixels.
Click to expand...

I never said that using different signal diminished SDE, I'm talking about native resolution.

to use your own terms

The the pixels and filler between pixels IS SMALLER with a higher NATIVE resolution ie 1280x720 vs 800x600. Hence the SDE is diminished.
 
FlatLine84 said:
Other than repairing different sets for people, my only experience with Plasma were these samsung panels which we installed at our college to give updates to students and so forth, we had them less than a year and they were noticeably dimmer, and picture burn in was extremely apparent. Perhaps samsung doesn't make good plasma displays?
Click to expand...


Lol, I can’t help some slick sales guy, or worse some uninformed member of your staff decided that a TV display was to be used 24/7 as a public information display.

I too have seen this happen and have people all the time think it’s what they want to have a cool looking high tech display.

No where does Samsung of anyone else represent this as a valid use for a TV chassis.

Take it a step further and most of the LCD displays in use at my local medical facility all suffer from burn in, and that just isn’t supposed to be possible, but it is.
 
BillR said:
Lol, I can’t help some slick sales guy, or worse some uninformed member of your staff decided that a TV display was to be used 24/7 as a public information display.

I too have seen this happen and have people all the time think it’s what they want to have a cool looking high tech display.

No where does Samsung of anyone else represent this as a valid use for a TV chassis.

Take it a step further and most of the LCD displays in use at my local medical facility all suffer from burn in, and that just isn’t supposed to be possible, but it is.
Click to expand...

Exactly, obviously we weren't in charge of what was bought, we just installed it. But I definately could see a saleman be "Oh yeah, this is an awsome display, blah blah blah".
 
FlatLine84 said:
That is very true, industry is moving away from plasma because of burn in, color fading, and dimming.
Click to expand...

I'm only versed in the first two. What's dimming does to a plasma, how does it occur?
 
Happy Hopping said:
I'm only versed in the first two. What's dimming does to a plasma, how does it occur?
Click to expand...

Plasma tv's are made up of hundreds of thousands tiny xeon and neon gases in red, green and blue. (Each pixel is made up of three subpixels just like an lcd display) However, over time these gases break down and are not able to become as excited as they were when they were first put into the tv.

A good example of this is comparing a brand new flourescent light with a flourescent light that's getting older. (Flourescent lights are also considered to be a plasma)
 
FlatLine84 said:
Please, seriously tell me of a Plasma that doesn't do this, because that is a very untrue statement.
Click to expand...

If you break in the TV properly, the prospects for burn in are minimal. Only if you abuse the TV by running it in torch mode do you risk burn in. See here, Panny's white paper on Plasma Myths:

http://www.fcw.com/vendorsolutions/panasonicplasma.pdf

Go to the AVS forum and at the flat panel displays forum and see how many people with newer plasmas complain about burn in. People with older NECs complain of image retention. I have yet to see anyone with a new Panny or newer Pio complain of it. In fact, Pio service consultants say it's a myth with their plasmas.

With older plasmas burn in was an issue. It is much less so these days, especially with improvements in phosphor technology.
 
It is easy to burn in a plasma with a static image that is being displayed 24/7 such as those used in airports or malls, etc, for information displays. For TV, game, or even HT use, that just isn't going to happen though, unless you are in the habit of leaving your desktop up for a week with no refresh, or pausing your games with the TV on only to come back to it several days later.

While I'm on it, it is pretty hard to burn in a CRT RPTV permanantly as well. I play my PS2 on my Hitachi CRT RPTV all the time, and once or twice I have paused a game and fallen asleep on the couch, only to wake up the next morning with the screen still the same, still no burn in.

EDIT: I will say they are a bitch to move though. When I switched apartments I just poneyed up the $80 to have professional movers take the thing from one place to the next. It wasn't worth my time or effort to lug a 350 lb TV down one flight of stairs and up another.
 
MovieMan80 said:
Plasma tv's are made up of hundreds of thousands tiny xeon and neon gases in red, green and blue. (Each pixel is made up of three subpixels just like an lcd display) However, over time these gases break down and are not able to become as excited as they were when they were first put into the tv.

A good example of this is comparing a brand new flourescent light with a flourescent light that's getting older. (Flourescent lights are also considered to be a plasma)
Click to expand...

thx.

So for this to happen, 1 year?
 
http://www.sharpusa.com/products/AQUOS/0,2338,,00.html

From this link at Sharp, click the button at the left side said LCD vs. Plasma. You can see why Sharp focus on LCD, not plasma.

One of the problem, not mentioned in this thread is that for those network that has a logo at the bottom right corner constantly, eventhough the rest of the screen is constantly moving, that logo is no difference than a burn in.
 
Here's a good article from cnet going over the pros and cons of each technology. One thing that's stated that I've never heard before is that plasmas are more prone to burn-in during the first 100 hours of use then anytime after that.

http://www.cnet.com/4520-7874_1-5108443-2.html?tag

I don't think the network logo will be much cause for concern regarding burn-in because most viewers won't have it on one channel the whole time. Plus the image is small and there's always commercials to help break up the amount of time that static image is on the screen.
 
There is no article. It's only 4 lines from that link

Most show is 1 hr. And if you watch 2 show in the same network back to back, that's 2 hr. of constant burn in, w/ 3 min. commerical in btwn. I sure don't want to take that chance.
 
The link was right you just had to scroll up to get to the article. Fixed the link so it now goes to the top of the page.
 
Just read the sharp list: here's my noticings.

I'm not entirely sure, but I think two things are greatly exaggerated - the lifespan and the power usage. I read a third party article recently that compared rptv, lcd, and plasma and all were subjected to 4 week constant use and remeasured for brightness at the end. The plasma was actually better than lcd by a few percent of lost brightness. Also, I think the power usage is very close for the two. Not sure what sharp is thinking there. So... definitely not half the lifespan of lcd, and definitely not a huge power difference. Maybe they were using old plasma tech numbers vs new lcd? Oh, haha, and you know you're bias when you think it is remarkable that 170 degree VA is an advantage over 160.

I also saw the sharp aquoses at best buy yesterday, even got to mess with the settings to make em look better, but they kinda sucked at black levels. But dude, the new sony bravia series xbr1 lcds looked friggin awesome. Most amazing blacks I've ever seen on an LCD. It was like 2k for the 26 inch model though!
 
MovieMan80 said:
The link was right you just had to scroll up to get to the article. Fixed the link so it now goes to the top of the page.
Click to expand...

thanks. After reading, for a 50" or so, plasma price is a bit better. Compares the

http://us.lge.com/Product/prodlist....01&parent2levelId=0000000001&category_level=3

LG 60" plasma at $15K vs. 57" samsung LCD at $20K, there is some difference in price, but at that level, what's an extra $5K MSRP?

I am surprise the article didn't say the speed problem w/ LCD. Have they resolve it?

I agree plasma pic. quality is better, but at higher res., almost double, I'll pick LCD anytime vs. plasma.
 
BillR said:
I’m not at all sure where you got your information but just the opposite it true. Plasma half life is shown to be over twice as long as a high end CRT meaning you can expect at least 4 to 5 years before the set is “measurably” dimmer, not necessarily noticeably dimmer.

DLP “CAN” give a great picture depending on who the builder might be. Samsung is good but compare it to a Mitsubishi and you probably won’t buy the Samsung. The DLP issue is similar to the LCD projector issue; the picture is only as good as the brightness of the bulb, which has a horrible half-life, at least currently.
Click to expand...


shown to be?

how is that possible?

6.8 years LEAVING the plasma on 24 7 365. Sorry plasma has not been out that long as of yet.

and all you claiming about DLP and rainbows. You guys are dealing with the mickey mouse crap. 3 chip DLP. Just like CRT, has a Red, Green and a blue array and then convergance them onto the screen. No rainbow as there is no spinning wheels and as such eliminates the biggest obstacle of the mini-DLP. Blacks are blacks as the micromirrors just flag off on the pixel. only problem is cost

As for Quaila... another form the the LCOS/D-ILA that JVC invented. Nothing new there.
 
Regarding PQ, y'all just need to see for yourself. I've owned a high end HD CRT for five years before deciding to buy another HDTV. The Pioneer Elite is close to flawless unless you count the poor bright ambient light and off axis viewing. Under the right circumstances though it is hard to fault. That was my reference TV.

With a great deal of anticipation I began looking at LCDs and DLPs. Unfortunately the flaws appear immediately. Screen door effects, poor/discolored blacks, spurious noise/dithering, shimmering (silk screen effect). I really wanted to like them and in fact spent almost a year staring at them at various stores. Just too many problems....too many picture defects. You live with a good reference TV long enough and those problems become unacceptable.

When the prices on plasmas declined I focused my attention there and all those problems with LCDs and DLPs were not present with plasmas. Excellent color saturation, no screen door effect at normal viewing distances, good blacks (with the Panasonics though somewhat inferior still to CRTs), no noise artifacts. Good off axis viewing and bright ambient light doesn't bother plasmas a bit. Easy choice to go with a HD plasma....just waited for the right price. Burn in issues is old news.....don't worry about that and don't believe the urban myths.....such as myths about short life span. The plasmas give you not only the best PQ, but long life and very little burn in questions as long as you're not stupid and display them in torch mode all the time.
 
Burn-In is exaggerated, but it does exist. People should honestly know that plasmas have recently been measured to have 5 times the image retention characteristics than opposing techs. However, that is pretty much plasma's ONLY caveat. And unless you run SDTV in non-stretched mode, or fall asleep watching espn news or something with permanent marquees, there shouldn't be anything else to worry about. It really is the choice I should have made initially. Read my absolutely honest posting here on avs: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=585715
 
The Sammy sound sync problems have been around for awhile. DLPs in general don't have a problem with syncing sound and image but the Sammy's do for some reason. The rainbow issue is the great ignored stepchild of DLP technology. You won't see it mentioned on those slick Texas Instrument ads that bombard us. The DLP apologists who don't see 'em insist that only a very small minority sees 'em. In fact, a recent poll in the AVS forum reveals that it is more of a 50/50 issue. Owners say the poll is not scientific, blah, blah, blah but are just trying to ignore the problem experienced by many others. Too many complaints, too much evidence. I don't like the tech for other reasons.....I get a headache watching DLPs (as many others do), I see shimmering, the image seems too 'hard' and 'etchy.' I personally think it's a technology that has a long way to go. A year ago it was the first tech I ruled out when looking for a new HDTV.
 
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