Peltier Chips

[grifter_66]

I am not sure where to post this but I figure it's kind of a cooling question so here it is.
I read that article about the Kids creating the car air conditioner using peltier chips which sounds cool but I am not sure what a peltier chip is exactly. I googled "peltier chip" but didnt find anything on what exactly it is other than some type of cooling component.

If this isn't the appropriate place to post this question please move for me.

 

[sadvocate]

Within the Overclocking & Cooling forum there is a sub forum entitled Extreme Cooling Solutions - you can find more information there.

 

[JL_Audio_User]

As far as I know it is an alternative cooling solution that fell out of favor because of its propensity for causing too much condensation/moisture .



of course I could be totaly wrong....but I think i got the gist of it

 

[Dark Ember]

Its close to the right place. Should be in Extreme Cooling Solutions, methinks.


Peltiers are TEC devices - Thermal Electric Cooling devices. Basically, you apply a voltage and a current through them, one side gets extremely hot, and the the other side gets extremely cold. If you google TEC and Peltier, I'm sure you'll get a lot of hits on that.

The problem with pelts are that they are extremely inefficient. Say, for a example, you have a 226 watt peltier. That is the amount of heat that it can possibly remove from one side (cold side) and transfer to the other side (hot side). However, to remove that heat, you must supply the pelt with the appropriate amount of voltage and current. To remove those 226 watts of heat, that peltier would probably need upwards of 330watts of electricity running through it. Thats basically the gist of it, but you can google, or we (forum members) can tell you more if want.

 

[grifter_66]

Thanks guys, I did google peltier but all's I got was a page of sites with things that use it but no actual description of what it was. So if the chip is that ineficiant then do you think the article about the kids using it to make airconditioners is a good thing?
lol, in hindsight I guess I could have put this in the car section, oh well it's early here and my brain isn't fully fuctional yet. Thanks again for the help

 

[Tigerbiten]

http://hardocp.com/article.html?art=Nzg5
That article has a good discription of how TEC work.

Disadvantages of useing a Peltiers are two fold.
To safely get 100 watts of cooling takes a 200-300 watt Peltier.
If the hot side gets too hot then it stops working.
So you need a cooling solution that can cope with around 400 watts of heat and keep the hot plate under about 50C.
If you can do that then its easy to run a CPU at sub-ambitent temps.

Luck.........

 

[DFI Daishi]

i do pelt cooling on my CPU and GPU.

pelt modules are a pain the the tail to deal with, and i will ammend what tigerbiten has said slightly, because to get optimal temps out of a pelt, you need to keep the hot side below 40 C. that means that for a solution of the sort that i have, with a 226 watt CPU pelt and an 80 watt GPU pelt, i need 360x120 mm of radiators/fans, to keep noise levels reasonable. in actual fact, i use 480x120, but that is just because i am working with what i have on hand. that is why i get frustrated with most reviews of peltier coolers that i read, since they just don't have enough radiating capacity to get the most out of them........

i can give you links to how it's done, but it would be a VERY good idea for you to become familiar with watercooling first, and then try for a pelt rig afterwards.

 

[Dark Ember]

i do pelt cooling on my CPU and GPU.

pelt modules are a pain the the tail to deal with, and i will ammend what tigerbiten has said slightly, because to get optimal temps out of a pelt, you need to keep the hot side below 40 C. that means that for a solution of the sort that i have, with a 226 watt CPU pelt and an 80 watt GPU pelt, i need 360x120 mm of radiators/fans, to keep noise levels reasonable. in actual fact, i use 480x120, but that is just because i am working with what i have on hand. that is why i get frustrated with most reviews of peltier coolers that i read, since they just don't have enough radiating capacity to get the most out of them........

i can give you links to how it's done, but it would be a VERY good idea for you to become familiar with watercooling first, and then try for a pelt rig afterwards.

I think he's actually looking at this for a car A/C application, rather than a CPU application. In which case there wouldn't be as much danger of blowing things up if he can't remove enough heat.

And to add to what Tigerbiten said, if the hot side gets too hot, not only does it stop working, but it becomes a very good insulator.

I bet one reason people are making A/C units with pelts is because it does not need a belt driven (and horsepower leeching) phase change compressor. The belts the drive the compressor can take power from your enginer, while pelts can be run purely off of an electrical current.

 

[zer0signal667]

I bet one reason people are making A/C units with pelts is because it does not need a belt driven (and horsepower leeching) phase change compressor. The belts the drive the compressor can take power from your enginer, while pelts can be run purely off of an electrical current.

Where do you think that electricl energy comes from? The alternator - another belt driven accessory. A phase change sysem is probably more efficient overall.

 

[Majin]

Where do you think that electricl energy comes from? The alternator - another belt driven accessory. A phase change sysem is probably more efficient overall.

Yes but you need an alternator to run a car. AC is a option that is AWESOME, but does take HP away from you.
The Alternator is going to be turning regardless if you have a Phasechange AC system of a Pelt AC system.
So the Pelt system is far better over all due to the facts
- Pelts don't weight much at all
- Doesn't require a large Phase change system to work and they are quite.
- not losing any HP from the engine.

 

[Lord of Shadows]

How are they cooling the hot side of the pelt? Seems counter productive to add a device to cool air which needs to be cooled itself...

And btw if your sucking additional power from a system working from a generator the generator will be just that much harder to turn. Which means less horsepower. (not that Im recommend turning your headlights off at night if your racing or something)

 

[Dark Ember]

Where do you think that electricl energy comes from? The alternator - another belt driven accessory. A phase change sysem is probably more efficient overall.

I understand that... However, you need to have the alternator running anyway. By using a pelt to do it, you are taking 1 belt driven accessory out of the chain.

A phase change system is more efficient at removing heat, in terms of power applied vs. heat removed. However, from my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong), theres a good bit of excess energy coming out of the alternator that goes into charging your battery. By putting the excess energy to use, using a pelt for a car A/C could be more efficient than phase change. Less power sapped from the motor to create a cooling system.

 

[TheArchitect]

more to the point, to get say another 50 amps out of the alternator you then need a bigger alternator which leaches off more HP.

unfortunately, I'm thinking you would need much more than 50 amps (50x12 = 600 watt) to get an equivelent cooling system to a standard car AC.

 

[zer0signal667]

I understand that... However, you need to have the alternator running anyway. By using a pelt to do it, you are taking 1 belt driven accessory out of the chain.

A phase change system is more efficient at removing heat, in terms of power applied vs. heat removed. However, from my understanding (and correct me if I'm wrong), theres a good bit of excess energy coming out of the alternator that goes into charging your battery. By putting the excess energy to use, using a pelt for a car A/C could be more efficient than phase change. Less power sapped from the motor to create a cooling system.

Yes you need the alternator spinning anyway, but it takes more HP to spin it when you increase the electrical load. More mechanical energy has to go into it to get more electrical energy out. It sucks, but that's the nature of existence for ya

By the way, the battery is not constantly charging, only when it needs charging does it draw current from the alternator. I don't know what you mean by excess energy... If you want to harness "excess energy" then the pelts should go on the engine block where the temp differential from all the wasted heat energy could go towards your electrical needs.

 

[Arkalius]

Energy isn't free. TEC uses energy just like the phase change compressor. It comes from somwhere. The real question is whether the TEC or the phase change system is more energy efficient at doing the same job.

 

[DFI Daishi]

Energy isn't free. TEC uses energy just like the phase change compressor. It comes from somwhere. The real question is whether the TEC or the phase change system is more energy efficient at doing the same job.

well, i think that what zer0signa667 is alluding to is the fact that you can generate power using a temperature differential across a pelt.

if you were to generate power with a number of pelts feeding off the delta T between the engine block and ambient temp to power pelts for cooling cabin air, that would be essentially "free" cooling in the sense that there would be no loss of HP to get the cooling.

on the more pragmatic side of things.....i think that it would be a whole lot of work for cooling that a few HP of engine power could supply.

 

[Dark Ember]

Ok. Well that shows you what I know about cars and alternators. I guess thats why I post about computer related stuff and not cars... I'll keep my mouth shut now.

 

[zer0signal667]

well, i think that what zer0signa667 is alluding to is the fact that you can generate power using a temperature differential across a pelt.

if you were to generate power with a number of pelts feeding off the delta T between the engine block and ambient temp to power pelts for cooling cabin air, that would be essentially "free" cooling in the sense that there would be no loss of HP to get the cooling.

on the more pragmatic side of things.....i think that it would be a whole lot of work for cooling that a few HP of engine power could supply.

Exactly Peltiers work to convert heat flow to electricity AND vice versa. You're right though, it's not practical, mainly because you'd need active cooling on the cooling side of the pelt. Plus, lining your engine with ceramic insulators (peltiers) has DANGER written all over it.