PC keeps crashing

[cierzo]

Hello. I've been having problems with my PC, keeps crashing during games. Shuts itself down and doesn't want to start again. Also, the PSU is making a weird noise while doing that. I've underclocked the Graphics card and CPU and things got better for a while, no crashes but now it's started again.

I'm suspecting the PSU, 3V on the 12V rail seems really really low.
Here are some screenshots with voltages and temps. At normal GPU clock PC shuts itself down after 20 seconds
http://imgur.com/a/3demP

Config:
PSU: fortron 400w
CPU: core 2 duo E2160
GPU: GF 460GTX
MEM: 2GB
MB: Gigabyte P31-Ds3L

Tell me what to do here guys? Don't have a lot of money and replacing any component would suck.

 

[Deleted member 184142]

Don't trust voltage readings from software, get a multimeter and check with that, only way to get true readings and test if the psu is putting out the right voltage.

 

[Xerus70]

Don't trust voltage readings from software, get a multimeter and check with that, only way to get true readings and test if the psu is putting out the right voltage.

I'll echo BlueFireIce. A multimeter is the only way to be really sure about what your PSU is outputting.

 

[cierzo]

Ok using a multimeter I've got this:

- on the cables leading to HDDs and GPU (12V rails?):
12V: 12.24
5V: 5.17

- on the 12V cables for the MB
12V: 12.24
5V: 5.17
3V: 3.34

 

[Profumo]

Ok using a multimeter I've got this:

- on the cables leading to HDDs and GPU (12V rails?):
12V: 12.24
5V: 5.17

- on the 12V cables for the MB
12V: 12.24
5V: 5.17
3V: 3.34

Under full load?.. if so your problem probably lies elsewhere.

What specific FSP power supply do you have?

 

[cierzo]

Under full load?.. if so your problem probably lies elsewhere.

What specific FSP power supply do you have?

Fortron ATX-400PNF http://www.pcgarage.ro/surse/fortron/atx-400pnf/

No, not under load. I'll check that now.

 

[cierzo]

11.84V running furmark. Measured in 3 points on the graphic card before it crashed.

 

[Tsumi]

11.84v is still within ATX spec, but it is entirely possible that it is no longer able to supply the watts needed. On the other hand, it could also be your GPU going bad, since downclocking worked temporarily.

 

[cierzo]

11.84v is still within ATX spec, but it is entirely possible that it is no longer able to supply the watts needed. On the other hand, it could also be your GPU going bad, since downclocking worked temporarily.

It doesn't exhibit any symptoms of a bad GPU or memory: lock-ups, artifacts, monitor turning off.

This is the graphic card:

The cooler has contact with the GPU and nothing else. The Power-Circuitry area gets really hot. I'm thinking if there's a problem, this must be it. But then what's with the PC shutting down and the PSU making weird noises?

 

[Profumo]

Well, that PSU(while being a decent unit) comes with no PCIe connectors, so you're obviously using adapters.. the PSU comes with two 12V rails each with OCP set at 18A, most likely you have the CPU and VGA on the same rail, so any high VGA load trips the OCP

If your Molex configuration doesn't allow you to put the VGA and CPU on different rails you'll need a new PSU.

 

[cierzo]

Well, that PSU(while being a decent unit) comes with no PCIe connectors, so you're obviously using adapters.. the PSU comes with two 12V rails each with OCP set at 18A, most likely you have the CPU and VGA on the same rail, so any high VGA load trips the OCP

If your Molex configuration doesn't allow you to put the VGA and CPU on different rails you'll need a new PSU.

Thanks for your input Can you explain me why this didn't happen from the start, EG since I've bought the graphic card, even with high overclocks, but only recently? And it looks like it's progressive, lowering voltage and clock speeds seemed to do the trick, until it started to shut off again. There's only so much I can lower the clocks and still keep a decent fps.

Cheers!

edit: yes, 2 adapters, both molex 12V rails going to the GPU.

 

[Profumo]

Progressive you say.. open the PSU and take a look at the capacitors, look for bulges.

ps. e pe duca cel mai probabil, trebuiesc schimbati condesatorii

 

[Deleted member 184142]

As stated, find out which cable has which 12v rail on it, move the gpu to run off just one of those, and use the other rail for everything else. PSU's degrade over time, so after a while they are not able to put out the same amount of watts as new. And it depends on how close you are to the actual wattage the PSU is able to put out.

 

[Profumo]

As stated, find out which cable has which 12v rail on it, move the gpu to run off just one of those, and use the other rail for everything else. PSU's degrade over time, so after a while they are not able to put out the same amount of watts as new. And it depends on how close you are to the actual wattage the PSU is able to put out.

Poor PSUs degrade over time to any noticeable degree, and this is not a bad unit... what he's reporting points to bad caps really

 

[Deleted member 184142]

Poor PSUs degrade over time to any noticeable degree, and this is not a bad unit... what he's reporting points to bad caps really

All PSU's degrade over time. And depending on what the actual wattage the PSU can put out, and if the load is close to that, and it degrades over time to a point it can no longer support the load it will cause problems. You are stating its not a bad unit....and then in the same breath saying its bad/degraded caps, which is it?

 

[Profumo]

All PSU's degrade over time. And depending on what the actual wattage the PSU can put out, and if the load is close to that, and it degrades over time to a point it can no longer support the load it will cause problems. You are stating its not a bad unit....and then in the same breath saying its bad/degraded caps, which is it?

Both, bad caps =/= bad design .. poor batch of caps, poor working regime(high ambient temps, not enough cooling, etc) and so on..

Also, no.. PSUs don't degrade to begin with, capacitors degrade(poor ones that is) and not with time, but with temperature(high temperature that is)... high quality caps(Japanese generally) don't lose capacitance to any significant degree over time, unless of course you bake them...
The above encompasses 100% of the premium units on the market and the vast majority of the mainstream ones too

 

[Deleted member 184142]

Both, bad caps =/= bad design .. poor batch of caps, poor working regime(high ambient temps, not enough cooling, etc) and so on..

Also, no.. PSUs don't degrade to begin with, capacitors degrade(poor ones that is) and not with time, but with temperature(high temperature that is)... high quality caps(Japanese generally) don't lose capacitance to any significant degree over time, unless of course you bake them...
The above encompasses 100% of the premium units on the market and the vast majority of the mainstream ones too

Bad is bad, stop trying to nitpick, parts used are part of the design. PSU's, I hate to break it to you, include caps in their design, so when caps degrade (like all electrical parts) over time aka use, not with just out of spec temps. They can also fail from disuse. When they degrade they become less efficient, and filtering gets worse and self generated heat gets higher, these can all lead to PSU problems. You are saying in one breath, that a PSU with a good design which would also have to have good parts in that design to be good, would never fail, and you just claimed this unit is good and are then saying its the caps that might be bad that you just said cant go bad....

Why do I even bother.

 

[Profumo]

bad post

 

[Deleted member 184142]

Mind the tone please.. and No, I never said they don't degrade, I simply said they don't degrade to any noticeable degree, which is something completely different than what you make it out to be... capacitors are not drifting tires

Review your own tone first, if you expect respect, then you have to give it first, or at the very least give a reason for it.

And what do tires have to do with the matter? Or is that as technical you are capable of being?

Yes they can fail due to disuse, poor storage, ripple spikes, etc... how's that relevant to this discussion?

We are both talking about a bad PSU because of caps, sooo...How is it not relevant to this discussion? Or are you just contracting yourself again?

And again, capacitors are not drag race tires... when they degrade, the filtering gets marginally worst, self generated heat slightly increases(dependent on the type of cap, the ESR ratings, etc) which has little to no impact on the electrical performance of the unit itself.. when capacitance drops, the output might drop a few percents, which means nothing in the large scheme if things... if you're average 500W unit with OPP set at >550W stops being enough for you after 4 years of use and ~2% output drop then most likely you needed a considerably larger PSU to begin with.

Again, tires? Really?

Degrading of caps does not have to do with the output of what the PSU can do, but after a given time will not be able to keep up, which you then have caps giving out etc because current protection does not kick in (because caps are out of spec, not the power of the unit itself). That is the reason some PSU's start acting up "over time" like he was talking about, while a bad cap will just not work or blow.

The fact that you're not the sharpest knife in the drawer is no secret by now... but this is getting ridiculous really...
I never said that a well designed PSU will never fail, that's poor deduction and failed logic on your part... however, on most premium units the first thing that fails is the fan, not the caps and not the electronics

You stated that PSU's don't degrade, and that failure comes from misuse, you indeed act that a PSU will never fail unless it's some crap unit to start with. But I am not going to go off on a tangent of what you think i think you think.

 

[cierzo]

Thanks for your advice, I'll open it up and see what's the deal.

Ok ms. Hai ca o desfac, poate trag si niste poze.

 

[cierzo]

Progressive you say.. open the PSU and take a look at the capacitors, look for bulges.

ps. e pe duca cel mai probabil, trebuiesc schimbati condesatorii

Ok, i've checked the capacitors and they look slightly bulged. You can't really see it but it definetly feels to the touch.

Grabbed some pictures:
http://imgur.com/a/gXGuA#0

 

[Profumo]

Review your own tone first, if you expect respect, then you have to give it first, or at the very least give a reason for it.

That's very good advice, I wonder why you don't follow it yourself, I was more than decent in approach and attitude until your previous post.

And what do tires have to do with the matter? Or is that as technical you are capable of being?

Since you don't understand such a simple parallel, I don't believe a more technical one would help, on the contrary..

We are both talking about a bad PSU because of caps, sooo...How is it not relevant to this discussion? Or are you just contracting yourself again?

I'm trying to make some sense of this but I find it simply impossible.. quite amusing though

Degrading of caps does not have to do with the output of what the PSU can do, but after a given time will not be able to keep up, which you then have caps giving out etc because current protection does not kick in (because caps are out of spec, not the power of the unit itself). That is the reason some PSU's start acting up "over time" like he was talking about, while a bad cap will just not work or blow.

I could nitpick on this but essentially the theory is more or less correct.. however, you think that all caps degrade to such a degree(even under proper use) that they'll be pushed beyond spec at load levels well below the incidence of any implemented protections(OCP, OPP, etc) and eventually the abuse takes them out... and that's just wrong, unless you're talking about utter trash designs from nameless Chinese offenders using trash like AsiaX, Fuhiyyu, etc.. but that's not what I'm talking about, and it's not what this forum section is about either.

ps. my previous post was somewhat insulting and inappropriate and thus edited.

 

[Profumo]

Ok, i've checked the capacitors and they look slightly bulged. You can't really see it but it definetly feels to the touch.

Grabbed some pictures:
http://imgur.com/a/gXGuA#0

That's a half bridge, group regulated unit.. if you're sure the caps are bulged(I can't tell from the pics) you should get a new PSU.