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New PSU options...

computerpro3 said:
burningrave101 said:
But for 99.9% of PC users they aren't going to have a problem running a normal name brand PSU for less money.
QUOTE]

Well I wouldn't say 99%, but fair enough point
Click to expand...

Um yea i'd say 99% at least because if you saw the percentage of people with PC Power and Cooling PSU's it would be extremely small. Far less then 1%. There are people with even generics that dont have issues even though the PSU's are some real crappers.

Even overclockers only make up a very small percentage of the PC users out there. Probably not even 5%.

If you counted every single person on HardForums we would still be an extreme minority.
Click to expand...
 
computerpro3 said:
http://www.maximumoc.com/img/hardware/pcpowerandcooling_turbocool510/inside.jpg
Click to expand...
topower.jpg


If anything, I think the Topower wins in terms of "what's inside". I don't get your personal vendetta against Antec, but the majority of us (the big majority of us) haven't had any problems whatsoever, and wouldn't hesitate to buy another Antec. I know you can find a better power supply for the money, but considering availability, would you be able to find a Fortron PSU in a mom-and-pop computer shop? I wouldn't think so. Antecs are available everywhere.

I run a True430, and its a great power supply. All the rails are spot-on measured with my multimeter. I can't say I'm the biggest overclocker, but it does the job for me very well. Its quiet too.
 
Do mom and pop shops still exist? I haven't seen one in the past 5 years that was worth a shit. And the stuff that they sell in those- I cry for every poor soul dragged into one of those, moreso than one dragged into a CompUSA.
 
Yeah, that does seem to be a rather moot point, considering we have, well, the Internet.
 
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=40010&highlight=antec+pcp&c

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=41598&highlight=antec+pcp&c

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=29090&highlight=antec+pcp&c

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=35786&highlight=antec+pcp&c

Here is a telling statement:

tedinde said:
Any reason you wouldnt recommend a fortron?

You recommended an ANTEC i took out an antec 550 from my vapo. It couldnt hold the 12v line @ 4ghz. 11.4volts!!!

Now im running a fortron 530 that weigh's almost 1.5 lbs more than the Antec.

it's powering my VAPO, MB, 80watt Pelt and HD's and accessories.

I Put the Antec 550 in my duallie rig. 2 xp 1700@ 2.3ghz each. Bam the 5v couldnt hold down to 4.6volts

I pulled a Brand new fortron 120mm fan 300 watt PS out the closet. It's in my duallie for the last 6 months. all the rails are perfect without even opening it up and adjusting.

I had a ttgi 550 also in the mix that couldnt hold up.

I've seen the new 30 watt enermax's. I've had 2 enermax's die on me in the past. No way. And I havnt seen any adjustments on enermax's.

fortrons are cheap here. NEWEGG has really jacked their price on the 530.

http://www.dealsonic.com/fofgr.html

If you cant afford that PCP&C, get the fortron. The only PC hardware in a while that has really impressed me.
Click to expand...

And here's a thread wit ha LOT of people that know what they are talking about. Notice the lack of antec for the most part. Only a few people mentioned them. And the only one that reccomended it had this to say

I have only used Generic and Antec.
Click to expand...

http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=43415&highlight=antec+pcp&c



I'm done after this, I don't care what psu you buy or what you trick yourself into believing. The fact of the matter is if you plan on pushing your system hard, Antecs are not for you. Period. They are excellent psu's for your garden variety enthusiast machine but if you plan on running fx-55/6800U/2GB ram/raptor etc or want to do any serious overclocking on water or phase change, then quite simply your Antec psu will be bottlenecking you (less the neopower and eps12v 550).

Go over to xtremesystems.org/forums and ask about antecs. They are mostly devoid of !!!!!!s and will give you plenty of logical arguments, facts, and experiences that will change you mind about Antecs. Hell, one of their members documented a fortron 350w outperforming the antec 550!

Also, go over to Ocforums power supply section. Ignore all the people with 5 post counts and listen to senior members. They are also very knowledgable about psu's and will easily reccomend fortron, ocz, tagan, vantec, pcp&c, etc over Antec.

Basically, people with lots of experience and high end machines don't reccomend Antecs for that application. People who have only used generic and Antec's do.

You pick who to believe, Tedinde, Hipro, freecableguy, or burninggrave :p. When you run rigs like this:

freecableguys rig said:
Intel P4 3.4EE ES @ 4Ghz (250x16)
Abit IC7-MAX3 w/custom VTT mod
2GB (4x512MB) Corsair XMS3500C2 v1.1 [BH-5] @ DDR500, 2-2-2-5
ATI X800 XT PE @ 615/585 on NEC MultiSync FP2141SB
SoundBlaster Audigy 2 ZS
Dual 36GB SATA WD Raptors RAID 0 & Single WD 120GB SATA HDD
Custom TEC Watercooled Lian-Li PC-70
PC Power and Cooling Turbo-Cool 510 ATX-PFC

Cooling: Swiftech MCW5002-PT w/320W TEC | Thermochill HE120.2 | 4 x Delta 120x38mm push/pull (>600CFM) | Blueline Velocity T1 pump | Meanwell SP-480-15 | Tygon-3603 1/2" ID tubing | Temps: -20C idle, 14C load, 20C ambient
Click to expand...

The antec 550 shrivels up and dies. No matter how much you want to make love to it.


Oh, and BTW the toppower me look prettier but the componets in the pcp&c are beefier and of a higher quality.


Also on a side note, pcp&c will shortly release a dual 12v line 800w BTX and ATX compatable psu. Thats straight from the mouth of one of their reps.

I mean, there is just so much information out there that for some reason hardforums does not seem aware of....psu's are our one weakness (well besides computer audio :p ).
 
Ah, what a mess guys.

I am considering getting a more powerful PSU to power the rig in my sig... I'm not a big overclocker... I just have a bunch of hardware sucking down juice. I'm not even convinced I need to upgrade. But I read about the Fortron 530 and Antec NeoPower 480, and I got interested. Now the problem is...

1) I am partial to Antec not based on long, hard research, but because I've been using them (because I recognized the brand) and they've never let me down.

2) The numbers for the Neo read 18A + 15A for 12V, while the Fortron 530 only reads 20A. I see some people say "well I automatically add 25% for this brand, and take out 20% for that brand" and while I don't think you're lying or making it up, I would feel better if you could point me to a specific scientific measurement which demonstrates the ratings that you're talking about. I'm not really up to speed on the scientific terminology, but I do know that, as you say, most of the reviews aren't really useful because the readings that take are either taking from inaccurate or variable sensors (perhaps on a motherboard) rather than with carefully calibrated and reliable devices crafted for the specific purpose, or simply irrelevant. So... what devices and numbers should I be looking at to know which PSU is going to give me the juice I need for my system?

3) Geez these are pricey... and I need to stop buying new PSUs with every upgrade. I originally got the Antec 300W which came with my case, and it was good for a while, but when I started adding more fans and hard drives, I got worried and grabbed a new Antec 400W. But I hadn't done enough research, and when I upgraded to the Athlon 64, I needed a new, 12V compatible Power Supply. I liked the Antec 400 I had, so just picked up the 12V version. But of course, one of those purchases should have been looking a little farther ahead, because now I'm looking to purchase again, with the 6800GT purchase. So I'm hoping you can help me out a little, and maybe not call me a lazy bum, because while I'll admit to a touch of laziness, I've already been reading through forums and reviews... but I can't really make heads or tails of the information. So while your opinion gives me some ideas, it'd be great if you could point me towards some scientific data, and let me know how it proves one or the other is worth my while.

Thanks a lot!

Also, I calculated needing approximately 22A on my 12V line, using the Japanese site (obviously using the English version) I saw earlier today in the forums, and read that my current power supply only puts out a maximum of 18A, so that is why I'm looking for an upgrade.
 
I see a lot of configurations where TECs are being run off the PC power supply. I'm sorry, but running TECs on a PC power supply isn't a test of a power supply's fortitude--it's an exercise in disaster. I don't care what people on overclocker's forums say, but running a TEC as a metric of who's who in the power supply business is a foolish notion. Any high-end unit from a reputable power supply brand can run a heavily overclocked configuration without a very high current-draw item like a TEC. TECs should have dedicated power supplies that provide them the optimal voltage, not whatever's convenient on the available PC voltage rails. On heavily overclocked systems, it comes down to the quality and care (cooling) of the motherboard power regulation circuitry, not the PC power supply circuitry. I myself prefer the power supplies of Fortron and Zippy/Emacs, but suggesting that Antec is weak because it can't handle peltiers is silly in my opinion. And your appeal to that poster's inexperience (used Antecs and generics) as a point against Antec's power supply capabilities is in bad form, plain and simple.
 
xxaaqq said:
Ah, what a mess guys.

I am considering getting a more powerful PSU to power the rig in my sig... I'm not a big overclocker... I just have a bunch of hardware sucking down juice. I'm not even convinced I need to upgrade. But I read about the Fortron 530 and Antec NeoPower 480, and I got interested. Now the problem is...

1) I am partial to Antec not based on long, hard research, but because I've been using them (because I recognized the brand) and they've never let me down.

2) The numbers for the Neo read 18A + 15A for 12V, while the Fortron 530 only reads 20A. I see some people say "well I automatically add 25% for this brand, and take out 20% for that brand" and while I don't think you're lying or making it up, I would feel better if you could point me to a specific scientific measurement which demonstrates the ratings that you're talking about. I'm not really up to speed on the scientific terminology, but I do know that, as you say, most of the reviews aren't really useful because the readings that take are either taking from inaccurate or variable sensors (perhaps on a motherboard) rather than with carefully calibrated and reliable devices crafted for the specific purpose, or simply irrelevant. So... what devices and numbers should I be looking at to know which PSU is going to give me the juice I need for my system?

3) Geez these are pricey... and I need to stop buying new PSUs with every upgrade. I originally got the Antec 300W which came with my case, and it was good for a while, but when I started adding more fans and hard drives, I got worried and grabbed a new Antec 400W. But I hadn't done enough research, and when I upgraded to the Athlon 64, I needed a new, 12V compatible Power Supply. I liked the Antec 400 I had, so just picked up the 12V version. But of course, one of those purchases should have been looking a little farther ahead, because now I'm looking to purchase again, with the 6800GT purchase. So I'm hoping you can help me out a little, and maybe not call me a lazy bum, because while I'll admit to a touch of laziness, I've already been reading through forums and reviews... but I can't really make heads or tails of the information. So while your opinion gives me some ideas, it'd be great if you could point me towards some scientific data, and let me know how it proves one or the other is worth my while.

Thanks a lot!

Also, I calculated needing approximately 22A on my 12V line, using the Japanese site (obviously using the English version) I saw earlier today in the forums, and read that my current power supply only puts out a maximum of 18A, so that is why I'm looking for an upgrade.
Click to expand...



Hmmm you're in a tough situation thats basically going to come down to two things....whats your budget and whats your rig? There are a ton of great psu's out there in every price range, check out the sticky at the top of the forum for some great suggestions.
 
My rig is my signature, below. My budget... that's always tricky because I live beyond my means... errgh... trying to get rid of credit card debt... but want my system to be stable, and don't want to stress the components of the system waiting for some debt relief. But for an idea of budget, I've been mulling over the $115 Antec NeoPower 480W power supply...

which I see was listed in your $100+ suggestions, originally for $150. You said earlier that you generally don't recommend Antec compared to say, Fortron, save for the NeoPower (and maybe you mentioned another?) As I said a little earlier, I think my system is drawing approximately 21-22A of 12V, maybe 13A of 3.3V, and 11A or so of 5V, for about a 360W requirement. Given Ice Czar's "1/3rd to 1/2th" addition, that puts me at a 480W to 540W range. Still, I am leaning towards the NeoPower because of past Antec experience and because of the features, including modular cabling and a 24-pin power connector for future boards.
 
Phase change cooling, peltiers, vapochill, extensive watercooling, and overly excessive mods to a computer should be run off a seperate power supply. There is no sense in putting a machine under incredible stress even with a PC Power and Cooling 510 because your cutting down on the PSU's life expectancy and the components its powering. If an Antec 550w can't power your machine then you need to be thinking about more then one power supply.

You can't say Antec sucks just because it wont run your frickin refrigerator and microwave along with the PC.

The only people having issues with Antec PSU's not providing enough power are the ones with cracked out systems over at xtremesystems.

Antec is one of the most widely used power supplies on the market and they are of top quality build, especially the new Neopower 480w. Hundreds of people here on hard have Antec PSU's and hardly anyone is having issues.
 
xxaaqq said:
My rig is my signature, below. My budget... that's always tricky because I live beyond my means... errgh... trying to get rid of credit card debt... but want my system to be stable, and don't want to stress the components of the system waiting for some debt relief. But for an idea of budget, I've been mulling over the $115 Antec NeoPower 480W power supply...

which I see was listed in your $100+ suggestions, originally for $150. You said earlier that you generally don't recommend Antec compared to say, Fortron, save for the NeoPower (and maybe you mentioned another?) As I said a little earlier, I think my system is drawing approximately 21-22A of 12V, maybe 13A of 3.3V, and 11A or so of 5V, for about a 360W requirement. Given Ice Czar's "1/3rd to 1/2th" addition, that puts me at a 480W to 540W range. Still, I am leaning towards the NeoPower because of past Antec experience and because of the features, including modular cabling and a 24-pin power connector for future boards.
Click to expand...


Hmmm the neopower would work for now, but I'm not sure on how much upgradeablilty it would give you.

How about this, however. Ever heard of Zippy? They manufacture the pc power and colling 510 deluxe and are exceptionally high quality psu's. Can you spring for the 500w zippy with 32 amps on the 12v line, or even the 550, which has 36amps and is comparable to the pcp&c 510 deluxe? Here are the links to them. These psu's will hold you over for years, especially the 550 with dual 12v lines with 36 amps total

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-103-708&depa=0

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=17-103-709&depa=0

Let me know.
 
burningrave101 said:
Phase change cooling, peltiers, vapochill, extensive watercooling, and overly excessive mods to a computer should be run off a seperate power supply. There is no sense in putting a machine under incredible stress even with a PC Power and Cooling 510 because your cutting down on the PSU's life expectancy and the components its powering. If an Antec 550w can't power your machine then you need to be thinking about more then one power supply.

You can't say Antec sucks just because it wont run your frickin refrigerator and microwave along with the PC.

The only people having issues with Antec PSU's not providing enough power are the ones with cracked out systems over at xtremesystems.

Antec is one of the most widely used power supplies on the market and they are of top quality build, especially the new Neopower 480w. Hundreds of people here on hard have Antec PSU's and hardly anyone is having issues.
Click to expand...


you claim that my system wasn't that cracked out yet I've had antecs that couldn't power it...several......

and the pcp&c is warrantied for 5 years. Thats 5 years. To power anything. Even 12 hard drives and a dual cpu system. In five years if I'm still on atx Intel must have gone out of business.

I'm not too worried about the life expectancy of my pcp&c 510 deluxe....especially considering it's not even trying right nowl...
 
Antec PSU's are warranted for 3 years and in 3 years time the wattage requirements for PC components will most likely be well over 500w.

The OCZ PowerStreams are backed with a 5 year warranty by OCZ’s exclusive PowerSwap replacement program.
 
Just for reference, look at my sig- this system, along with it's Sparkle 460watt Active-PFC psu, was designed from the ground up to be stable. Intel motherboard, nothing overclock, Fortron guts in the PSU. I've had enough adventures overclocking, and I know right now I cannot afford to lose components due to overstressing; that was the point behind this build.
 
exactly, you don't want to run your psu anywhere's near its capacity, and also you have to think ahead.

nice rig btw
 
Well, the $115 (plus $7 shipping) one has similar specifications to Antec, unless, as I said earlier, you can show me where you get the figures for "this brand really puts out more power than the rating" type statements. And the Antec has the "cool" factor, at least in that it's kind of a new concept, for me to be able to pick and choose the cables I want. The other one, with just 4 more A on the 12V, seems a little steep, though inevitably I could end up regretting not buying the more future proof today... Is the Zippy particularly quiet?
 
computerpro3 said:
exactly, you don't want to run your psu anywhere's near its capacity, and also you have to think ahead.

nice rig btw
Click to expand...

Power supplies are the most efficient when they are under at least 70% load. If you have a huge PSU and not using anywhere near the power it provides then your just wasteing power.
 
xxaaqq said:
Well, the $115 (plus $7 shipping) one has similar specifications to Antec, unless, as I said earlier, you can show me where you get the figures for "this brand really puts out more power than the rating" type statements. And the Antec has the "cool" factor, at least in that it's kind of a new concept, for me to be able to pick and choose the cables I want. The other one, with just 4 more A on the 12V, seems a little steep, though inevitably I could end up regretting not buying the more future proof today... Is the Zippy particularly quiet?
Click to expand...

Antec rates their power supplies according to maximum peak output @ 20C internal psu temp. Two problems with that. The stated hold up time @ full load of the psu by antec is 20ms. So, at full load the psu will shut down after 20ms. It is also important to know that is heat inside power supplies increases, the power it can put out decreases. For example, an antec trupower 550 @ 40C only produces around 360-380w real power compared to 550w @ 20c (I am using the 550 as an example because I don't want to do the math for a 480w psu, I have a graph in front of me for the 550w). And keep in mind we're still talking about the 20ms hold up time. Also antec's line tolerances are listed at 3%

Now Pc Power and Cooling, while having the same common 20ms hold up time under full load that all high end psu's have (and don't get me wrong, the neopower is a high end psu), does not rate their psu's according to how long they last at 20ms. They rate their psu's at how long they can put out constant power for an indefinite amount of time, called sustained maximum output.
They also rate their psu's at a much more accurate 40C internal temperature. Let me ask you a question...is the inside of your case around 15C? Because if it isn't, the Antec is going to be putting out much closer to 360 watts than it will be 550 watts. Also the pc power and cooling supply has a 1% line tolerance.

Basically here is how to equalize the ratings: @ 20C pc power and cooling 510 deluxe can put out 650w+. The peak output is listed in fine print on the label of the psu in small print under the maximum sustained output. The Antec puts out 480w under that circumstances. Now pump the temp up to where its actually realistic for the inside of a PSU, 40C, and you have 510 watts sustained compared to 360 for the 550 truepower, and perhaps less than that for the neopower (but the neopower will still have more amps and stability than the 550, despite the less wattage).

Sorry if I didn't explain that too well, do you get what I'm trying to say?
 
That makes a lot of sense, actually, even without seeing the graphs to back it up. Like many things in life... it would be better if everyone followed standards . Thanks a lot for taking the time to explain it to me. I always enjoy learning something new (and useful).
 
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article58-page3.html

Silentpcreview said:
CONCLUSIONS

The Antec TrueControl 550 is a perfect PSU for a overclocker obsessed with control and a need for very high power. It has every control and monitoring tool you can think of. Its fundamentals, stable power delivery with tight regulation, are excellent. I have not done enough PSU testing with the new test rig to know whether this level of voltage regulation is common, but I would have to guess that it is not. Finally, it has the ability to deliver huge amounts of power.
Click to expand...
 
that was before they revised their testing methods to include scopes, etc


and besides, thats the trucontrol, which deals with the line drooping issue...

the only real reviews on that psu are to be found on xtremesystems forums (that I can find anyway), due to the fact that it was released before the whole psu issue really came into focus
 
computerpro3 said:
that was before they revised their testing methods to include scopes, etc


and besides, thats the trucontrol, which deals with the line drooping issue...

the only real reviews on that psu are to be found on xtremesystems forums (that I can find anyway), due to the fact that it was released before the whole psu issue really came into focus
Click to expand...

Uh huh lol.

Link me to a review or article that includes an Antec 430w, 480w, or 550w True Power or the 550w True Control and has actually tested the maximum output wattages at 25C, 40C, and 50C and compared it to other PSU's.

I wanna see somethin besides some quotes from people on forums saying they aren't able to jump start their car off an Antec so it sucks.
 
This feud will never end. ComputerPro... thoughts on the Silencer 470W? Also, the brochure shows exactly what you were describing, but I was able to see the pretty pictures. I use Mozilla Firefox 1.0PR and on this computer have Adobe Reader 6.0x, and it works fine. With version 4.0, it opens a blank Firefox window, and then downloads the PDF and opens it in a seperate Adobe Reader window. Neither way has caused any crashes for me that I can remember. I use 4.0 simply because the newer versions do retarded things like create folders you don't want with no option to disable... But I suppose it's possible that certain older versions may have some stupid security flaw that seems to be so common these days... Anyway, again glad to learn something, even though my itchy purchase finger may have done something stupid... Hope this "feud" cools down. Antec doesn't suck and is a very recognizable name that some of us may have grown attached to (you're looking at him) while other, potentionally lesser known, brands may have more conservative (real world) rating methods, making them more powerful for their ratings, and overall a better purchase. As for me... I went for the "oooh neat" and "trusted name" this round... maybe next time I'll do something more reasonable.
 
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