need help picking a switch

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wizzackr

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
May 5, 2000
Messages
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hi all. we need a new switch for our tiny new render-network. all connected computers have gigabit LAN, so i'm looking for a decent 8 port gigabit switch - but have no clue whatsoever. acn you give me advice on what to look for, what brands are good, and which ones to avoid for example, or even better - recommend me one? we'll have a lot of network talk, as mental ray satellite does send a LOT of stuff around rendering...

budged-wise i have no idea, but it shouldn't be more than 300$, however, if that is not sufficient i'll shell out a bit more if i get a decend brand then...
any help is greatly appreciated,
j
 
I'd say that you should head over to CDW, and look at their unmanaged gigabit switches. Prices seem to be as low as $10/port on them. As to brands, big manufacturers are almost always better, but in an unmanaged switch, I really think you'd be hard pressed to find a difference.

I'd say Belkin & SMC tend to do pretty well in my experience, for low-end hardware.
 
On the cheap I have had extremely good luck with DELL switches. They are always having sales, but the prices are not too bad to begin with...

For Example
 
I can't believe people can be this desperate to start a thread. There are no special security features in a switch. They are all the same, they just have different stickers on them and pretty little boxes. Just go out and buy one. If worse comes to worse, just ask a salesperson to stick two behind his back, one in each hand.
 
SirKenin said:
I can't believe people can be this desperate to start a thread. There are no special security features in a switch. They are all the same, they just have different stickers on them and pretty little boxes. Just go out and buy one. If worse comes to worse, just ask a salesperson to stick two behind his back, one in each hand.
Click to expand...

It's not about beeing desperate, but about a) not having a clue, as stated above, and b) about trusting the guys on this board to give me better advice than the average sales-person in your local shop. In the company where I work the switches just crapped out on us, and we lost boatloads of frames of a short movie that has been rendering out for AGES and which is due on friday - why not ask for brands/what to look for? :rolleyes:
 
SirKenin said:
I can't believe people can be this desperate to start a thread. There are no special security features in a switch. They are all the same, they just have different stickers on them and pretty little boxes. Just go out and buy one. If worse comes to worse, just ask a salesperson to stick two behind his back, one in each hand.
Click to expand...

Did you seriously just say that? Come back when you have some idea what you are talking about. All switches are not created equal, they have different features, different throughputs, etc...
 
Well, to restate what I've said, which was hopefully friendly & helpful (or at least one of the two). Consumer-grade (lowish-end) networking equipment is pretty standard.

As you're in the market for an unmanaged - "dumb" - switch, you can pretty much buy based on which has neater patterns of blinkenlights. I've never used Dell networking equipment before, but I've also never had a problem with any networking kit I've purchased from CDW. If it's listed there in the Gigabit Switches category, and it's got the right number of ports, I'd give it a go.

I've got a semi-superstitious habit of avoiding the absoloute lowest cost product, when I'm buying comparable goods, but the range seems to be about $10/port on unmanaged gigabit switches.

I say, go forth, and buy with confidence. : )

I also say, if you do, and it doesn't work, don't blame me! :D
 
ElaborateDream said:
I've got a semi-superstitious habit of avoiding the absoloute lowest cost product, when I'm buying comparable goods, but the range seems to be about $10/port on unmanaged gigabit switches.

I say, go forth, and buy with confidence. : )

I also say, if you do, and it doesn't work, don't blame me! :D
Click to expand...


LOL - thanks a bunch, buddy, I will. As the studio is ordering a couple of DELL LCDs anyways I'll give the dell 16 port switch a go, PHUNBALL. Thanks guys.
 
PHUNBALL said:
Did you seriously just say that? Come back when you have some idea what you are talking about. All switches are not created equal, they have different features, different throughputs, etc...
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Sure they do. And in what price range are we talking about here?
 
SirKenin said:
Sure they do. And in what price range are we talking about here?
Click to expand...

Does it matter? You can't make a blanket statement like that regarding anything...

"Cars, they are all the same, just pick one" - Do you see how misleading and uninformative that is? All cars, just like switches are intended for the same general purpose, but they are far from all being the same...
 
PHUNBALL said:
Does it matter? You can't make a blanket statement like that regarding anything...

"Cars, they are all the same, just pick one" - Do you see how misleading and uninformative that is? All cars, just like switches are intended for the same general purpose, but they are far from all being the same...
Click to expand...
Of course it matters. A kid is asking about a switch. You make it sound like there is a big difference in the sub $500 range, and there isn't. You're way the hell out of his league in a very poor attempt at making a point.
 
SirKenin said:
Of course it matters. A kid is asking about a switch. You make it sound like there is a big difference in the sub $500 range, and there isn't. You're way the hell out of his league in a very poor attempt at making a point.
Click to expand...

There is a big difference between managed and unmanged switches, both of which can be found in the sub $500 range. You were saying?
 
SirKenin said:
Of course it matters. A kid is asking about a switch. You make it sound like there is a big difference in the sub $500 range, and there isn't. You're way the hell out of his league in a very poor attempt at making a point.
Click to expand...


Well, I don't know if that's necessarily true. Some of the bigger, low end gig switches don't have the backplane necessary to switch at wire speed. I have seen some 16 and 24 port gig switches that do not have the capacity for nearly that kind of throughput. This is something I would avoid when the application is for a work environment, particularly in a high demand environment like a rendering shop.
 
Darkstar850 said:
Well, I don't know if that's necessarily true. Some of the bigger, low end gig switches don't have the backplane necessary to switch at wire speed. I have seen some 16 and 24 port gig switches that do not have the capacity for nearly that kind of throughput. This is something I would avoid when the application is for a work environment, particularly in a high demand environment like a rendering shop.
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Thank you, finally a voice of reason. Apparently some people around here are content with using Belkin for all their networking needs...
 
For an eight computer flat network setup passing around frames from a render farm?

Belkin is adequate PHUNBALL, and if you'd like to take issue with that, I'd appreciate if you'd approach me directly with your comments.

If you'd like, I can ask wizzackr to do some network analysis and see if there is a need to go Gigabit, because more than likely, they aren't even maxing out their 100mbps setup passing around render-frames on newer PCs.

However, I've made a few assumptions here, for wizzackr's benefit, and I honestly believe a nice, basic, cheap, unmanaged Gigabit switch for $80ish will give them at least $80ish worth of satisfaction.

Yes, if they suddenly setup a multi-tibibyte SAN to interface with this switch, it'll start choking and go off and die in the corner, but given the statement that it's a tiny new render network, I'd say, go forth and be merry with a $80 piece of kit, because it will be enough for the stated case. : )
 
Pretty sure his comments were directed to SirKenin, who was somewhat rude in his original post, and not to you.
 
:: whistles innocently ::

Oh, well, it's Wednesday, which apparently means my reading comprehension skills are right out the window.

:D ?
 
ElaborateDream said:
:: whistles innocently ::

Oh, well, it's Wednesday, which apparently means my reading comprehension skills are right out the window.

:D ?
Click to expand...

Yeah, that was not directed at you... I was just trying to get SirKenin to understand that blanket statements (just grab the first thing you see, they are all the same) don't help anyone make an informed buying decision...
 
ElaborateDream said:
For an eight computer flat network setup passing around frames from a render farm?

(...)

If you'd like, I can ask wizzackr to do some network analysis and see if there is a need to go Gigabit, because more than likely, they aren't even maxing out their 100mbps setup passing around render-frames on newer PCs.
Click to expand...

It's not sending single frames of say an animation around that maxes the onnections out (especially as each node sends out chunks of 10 or 20 frames and then nothing for minutes or even hours), but rather rendering single frames with say MentalRay Satellite, which distributes chunks of one big-ass frame. That is when the entire process of global illumination, raytracing, postproduction, motion-blur etc etc. is broken up and calculated on all machines. We did some tests with a cheap dLink switch I had lying around, which was 100MBit, and rendertimes were noticably lower.

If you add now general network traffic of panels and movies being send around the office at the sametime we render it did make a difference. Still, how can you do that basic network analysis you were talking about? Just out of pure curiosity... I want to see numbers of our network ;)

I'm sorry if the OP seemed dumb to you pros, but I have no clue about switches and wanted to make sure I wouldn't buy crap. Heck, theoretically PSUs are all below 100 bucks as well, all rated at a given wattage and boy could you go wrong there...
 
You don't get it phunball. You just don't get it. Your comments are completely out of line and for someone that feels qualified to give advice you are about as far out in left field on this issue as I think you can safely get and still pretend to know what you are talking about.

You will NOT notice the difference between brand A and brand B in this kid's network environment. PERIOD. I don't care about backplane this and switching that. You will NOT notice the difference. There are too many variables to take into account, and seeing as how 99.99% of home networks are not optimized for Gigabit transfers you are only operating at between 20-60% (best case scenario) efficiency. So all of these so called benefits that you are touting are absolutely pointless. BS. That's right. BS.

In an enterprise environment where efficiency is key and the network is wired right, then you will appreciate the difference by ditching the average switch and going to something managed. Until then, you can forget it.

That's as blunt as I can get it. What it all boils down to is brand loyalty and people not knowing their heads from holes in the grounds. Taking part of the facts and assuming that they are the leading authority.

Now, like ElaborateDream said, if you can add some facts to your nonsense I'll be pleased to listen to them. Otherwise, I stand by what I said that in this kid's environment it doesn't matter a damn what he buys, I'm sure he will be more than happy with it.

(Yes, I have experience with these things on an enterprise level, so unlike some people I'm not talking out my ass or reading some review at THG and assuming I know what I'm talking about).

*sigh*. I'm glad to get that out of my system. Sorry if I sound a little crabby, but really.
 
SirKenin said:
You don't get it phunball. You just don't get it. Your comments are completely out of line and for someone that feels qualified to give advice you are about as far out in left field on this issue as I think you can safely get and still pretend to know what you are talking about.

You will NOT notice the difference between brand A and brand B in this kid's network environment. PERIOD. I don't care about backplane this and switching that. You will NOT notice the difference. There are too many variables to take into account, and seeing as how 99.99% of home networks are not optimized for Gigabit transfers you are only operating at between 20-60% (best case scenario) efficiency. So all of these so called benefits that you are touting are absolutely pointless. BS. That's right. BS.

In an enterprise environment where efficiency is key and the network is wired right, then you will appreciate the difference by ditching the average switch and going to something managed. Until then, you can forget it.

That's as blunt as I can get it. What it all boils down to is brand loyalty and people not knowing their heads from holes in the grounds. Taking part of the facts and assuming that they are the leading authority.

Now, like ElaborateDream said, if you can add some facts to your nonsense I'll be pleased to listen to them. Otherwise, I stand by what I said that in this kid's environment it doesn't matter a damn what he buys, I'm sure he will be more than happy with it.

(Yes, I have experience with these things on an enterprise level, so unlike some people I'm not talking out my ass or reading some review at THG and assuming I know what I'm talking about).

*sigh*. I'm glad to get that out of my system. Sorry if I sound a little crabby, but really.
Click to expand...

So now we are assuming this is some kid's network and you are the only person on this forum that has experience in this area??? Just because someone has a low budget does not mean they are running it in their basement...

I never once said a $50 switch would not work for this particular setup (go back and see the one I suggested partly due to the ease of return/replacement in the event of a problem), all I said was telling someone to grab the first thing they see is piss poor advise...

Please go back, read, and comprehend someone's comments before you start running your mouth...
 
PHUNBALL said:
So now we are assuming this is some kid's network and you are the only person on this forum that has experience in this area??? Just because someone has a low budget does not mean they are running it in their basement...

I never once said a $50 switch would not work for this particular setup (go back and see the one I suggested partly due to the ease of return/replacement in the event of a problem), all I said was telling someone to grab the first thing they see is piss poor advise...

Please go back, read, and comprehend someone's comments before you start running your mouth...
Click to expand...
It's piss poor advice when you try and convince us that you actually have a clue what you are talking about by convincing us of all the differences amongst $50.00 switches. Give your head a shake and get a clue.
 
SirKenin said:
It's piss poor advice when you try and convince us that you actually have a clue what you are talking about by convincing us of all the differences amongst $50.00 switches. Give your head a shake and get a clue.
Click to expand...

It's piss poor to attack someone who's trying to be helpful in a situation. Stating that "all things are the same" is equally not helpful. So lets try and help this guy out instead of bickering on and on.
 
lets just put an end to this and say you are both right and both wrong. now hug..... and kiss......... and make up. there is no need to get defensive. if you disagree say you disagree dont thread jack and bash the other person. after all you are here to give your opinion not to lecture on what you think the best option is. You both make decent points and i can see where you both come from. let the him decide for himself. hes shellin out the cash.

Cheers
 
SirKenin said:
It's piss poor advice when you try and convince us that you actually have a clue what you are talking about by convincing us of all the differences amongst $50.00 switches. Give your head a shake and get a clue.
Click to expand...

I see we have reached the end of civil conversation and you are somehow convinced (even though it is not written anywhere) I said there are differences between $50 switches.

I think the topic starter has gotten what he came for so I will now be abandoning this thread...
 
SirKenin said:
Sorry if I sound a little crabby, but really.
Click to expand...

Actually, you sounded like a patronizing smartass for most of the time, but I got my answers :) Seriously, say things nicely, or refrain from answering altogether if you feel the OP is too dumb for you. I stated I didn't have a clue, but that is exactly why I wouldn't know "There are no special security features in a switch. They are all the same, they just have different stickers on them and pretty little boxes." in the first place.

You shouldn't just run out and buy PSUs and whatnot on the same token, right, so how should I have figured it works with switches that way? ("I can't believe people can be this desperate to start a thread.") Heck, Kenin, I wouldn't treat any "kid" like that if you posted some dumb question on a maya or max forum just because i would know better...

Thanks anyways for the informative parts of you posts ;)

That beeing said, thanks a bunch Phunball and ElaborateDreams for the help, especially as it must have been a dumb question for you, too.
 
Just buy the prettiest box.... ;) Myself, I buy for brand loyalty until you get up into the big things where it really matters. More than half of these cheap products are all made in the same factory anyways. They just put different stickers on them. Do you honestly think for two seconds that Dell makes switches (if you do, you're not very bright)?

That's why I get irate when you get these know-it-alls that try and convince you that there are all these differences in these low-end products or home-grade products. There isn't. Simple as that. This is why I get so pissed off with these little turds that go reading THG or Anand or some similar loser and get all worked up over a product because this number is just slightly better than that one (yes you know what I am talking about, I am sure). Where it matters is in real world performance and all these pretty numbers on a screen just don't stack up. It gives people with no lives something to do instead of venturing out into the outdoors and hanging out with some hottie.

Glad you found your answers.
 
wizzackr said:
That beeing said, thanks a bunch Phunball and ElaborateDreams for the help, especially as it must have been a dumb question for you, too.
Click to expand...

Not a dumb question at all. The fact you asked before you invested money is a good sign, about the future of your company, your job, about a lot of things.

I didn't know you were doing such a heavily distributed setup, but I figured since gigbit is getting nice & cheap, it couldn't hurt you, turns out, you will find good use for it. :D
 
with gigabit switches, you have to make sure it support jumbo packets... also, your nics have to support it also..

so in theory, not all switches are made equal./
 
If you're going gigabit, then you must be sure that your new switch will support jumbo frames.
 
mikeblas said:
If you're going gigabit, then you must be sure that your new switch will support jumbo frames.
Click to expand...

I searched the forums a bit and just ordered this one, based on mjz_5s advice on jumbo packets. Whether that is actually going to affect performance - got no clue, but it's the same price... :D
 
wizzackr said:
I searched the forums a bit and just ordered this one, based on mjz_5s advice on jumbo packets. Whether that is actually going to affect performance - got no clue, but it's the same price... :D
Click to expand...

i went from a linksys switch (no jumbo packets) to a smc (jumbo packets).

I did not get faster transfers, but my CPU utilization surely went down :p..
 
mjz_5 said:
i went from a linksys switch (no jumbo packets) to a smc (jumbo packets).

I did not get faster transfers, but my CPU utilization surely went down :p..
Click to expand...

Did you remember to enable jumbo packets in your drivers? On all your machines?
 
mikeblas said:
Did you remember to enable jumbo packets in your drivers? On all your machines?
Click to expand...

yeah, look at my sig.. i only get roughly 20MB/s on my network (~20% gigabit network utilization)..

spent all that money on a server for nothing :(... i heard soo many theories, windows sucks, nic cards suck, i have no idea
 
mjz_5 said:
yeah, look at my sig.. i only get roughly 20MB/s on my network (~20% gigabit network utilization)..

spent all that money on a server for nothing :(... i heard soo many theories, windows sucks, nic cards suck, i have no idea
Click to expand...

I don't see anything about jumbo packets in your sig.

It's easy to get better throughput with a little tweaking. If you haven't adjusted any of the driver settings, you're almost certainly running unoptimally. There's also the fact that gigabit networking might be faster than your hard drive or PCI bus.
 
SirKenin said:
I can't believe people can be this desperate to start a thread. There are no special security features in a switch. They are all the same, they just have different stickers on them and pretty little boxes. Just go out and buy one. If worse comes to worse, just ask a salesperson to stick two behind his back, one in each hand.
Click to expand...

Can you please refrain from posting in the networking forum anymore?

Appreciated, thanks
 
SirKenin said:
Of course it matters. A kid is asking about a switch. You make it sound like there is a big difference in the sub $500 range, and there isn't. You're way the hell out of his league in a very poor attempt at making a point.
Click to expand...

Sure there is.
I think what you mean is "hey, any switch will work and forward frames"

but when he's talking about a freaking RENDER farm (even if it is tiny, those gig ports will surely be taxed to their limits).

ok so,

according to you lets go buy a cheap SOHO gig switch.

unmanaged yeah sure why not :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

you fail to understand that a big different between managed and unmanaged is not just being able to "talk" to the switch and do advanced configs, but also things like the backplane and PORT DENSITY (memory buffers, etc).

he even said in this thread that a previous switch failed and they were basically fuked.
if this is a critical service (which i would say a render farm would be) then why not spend a couple extra bucks and buy quality, managed.

you don't want an 8port gig switch with a 4gig backplane .... and with small port buffers
 
mikeblas said:
I don't see anything about jumbo packets in your sig.

It's easy to get better throughput with a little tweaking. If you haven't adjusted any of the driver settings, you're almost certainly running unoptimally. There's also the fact that gigabit networking might be faster than your hard drive or PCI bus.
Click to expand...

i have all nics sent on jumbo packets/frames on... what tweaks can i do?
 
mjz_5 said:
i have all nics sent on jumbo packets/frames on... what tweaks can i do?
Click to expand...

Offload checksums and packet splitting. Increase send and receive buffers.Increase send and receive descriptors. Increase buffer memory.

And so on.
 
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