MS trained on Vista for release: Any questions?

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Fuzzy Logik

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Aug 16, 2001
Messages
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Ask away :)

Some things u will want to consider

Vista is only being released on DvD - no CD.

You cannot upgrade install Vista unles you are running XP SP2 - otherwise it's a clean install from the DvD.

With Dual boots, install your legacy OS First! - otherwise, for example, if you install XP after Vista it will replace Bootmgr in the MBR with ntldr, and vista will not load on ntldr, it uses bootmgr to locate winload.exe to load Vista's kernel.

If you screw up - use the Vista DvD to boot into Win RE -(repair actually works in Vista ) and use bootsect /nt52 D: ( use whatever drive letter the XP partition is on.)

This may be fixed later in patches, but if you install Vista on the D partition ... and you are in vista, it names your D partition drive letter C... aint that a B. It's still on the d partition.

Readyboost helps take the load off of small data chunks needed to start certain applications or other proceedures that would plausibly take a hard drive longer to locate. Will need some tests done to really see how well it preforms.

I tried deleting system32 but it won't allow certain things to be deleted regardless of permissions or read only attributes. Everything in the folders is gone afterwords... yet Vista loads just fine. I guess Vista just wants winload.exe to load the kernal and the kernel must be the majority of the OS.

It's pretty difficult to destroy this OS.

Aero Glass and Flip 3d are cool features.. but it's not the only reason to use Vista.

That's just some basics... if you have any questions or more technical issues, i'll be checking this thread frequently.
 
Fuzzy Logik said:
With Dual boots, install Vista First! - otherwise if u install XP it will replace Bootmgr in the MBR with ntldr, and vista will not load on ntldr, it uses bootmgr to locate winload.exe to load Vista's kernel.
Click to expand...
That sounds backwards. If you install vista first, then installed xp, then that would be the result, not visa versa...

Also about deleting system32... were you using the operating system? I can't remember a version of windows that would let you blow away files that were in use..
 
You are absolutely correct about the dual boot, I had it backwards in my head when I was typing it out, and have edited my post to correct the issue. Thank you for noticing that! :)

As for deleting system32 files, you are correct, windows will not allow you to delete anything in current use...

What i was trying to point out that if you are a challenged user and decide to delete your system32 folder, it will delete everything inside... but it still loads Vista just fine... kinda weird.

You can also delete NTOSKRNL and load vista just fine, and NTOSKRNL is nowhere to be found.


More Vista Stuff:

There is no IP support for Firewire in vista... you can still use firewire devices, just no more connecting 2 pcs via firewire.... darn :rolleyes:

The "Windows Key" or "Start Button" is now known as the "Windows Pearl". There is a pretty cool search function inside the Pearl.

It's a damn good OS that will launch with little to no problems.

The end user may have issues with setup installation and using Vista, it is different in use.

Yes, classic XP view is an option :)

VSS (Volume Shadowcopy service) has less overhead than it does in XP allowing for System Restore to actually be used.

You cannot uninstall Vista, there is no uninstall option.
There is no more Fdisk

We use a utility called diskpart - this can be laucnhed from booting from the Vista DvD and choosing Repair, you can also launch a command prompt as admin. to run Diskpart from Vista - or use the GUI disk management.

You can use Diskpart to shrink partitions. Pretty cool. Wanna defragment before doing any partition shrinking because there are issues with data being at the end of an allocated sector and not being properlly shrinked and or possible data loss.

Ughh... I'm still learning too, two weeks of training so far, still a lot to go on.

so this is helping me a lot!

Thanks!

:)
 
I'm sorry, but what the hell does that topic mean?

Oh, by the way, USB 2.0 maxes out at 480 Mbps - SATA I maxes out at 1.5 Gbps and SATA II maxes out at 3 Gbps, soooo... if that's the kind of training Microsoft has given you (assuming I interpretedt the topic correctly), you're like, way way off. :)

I think what you meant to say is that Flash-RAM based USB devices have faster random seek times than a physical hard drive, which is entirely accurate. But it doesn't help much to be able to find a file in a very short period of time if it takes longer to actually transfer it to the PC for usage, and that's where Flash-RAM based USB drives fall tragically short.

ReadyBoost helps by basically mirroring stuff that's already been sent to the pagefile on the physical hard drive, hence the reason you can unplug any ReadyBoost Flash-RAM USB or media card memory with no ill effects: the data related to the pagefile is still sent to the phyiscal hard drive first and then duplicated in short order to the ReadyBoost device.
 
bbz_Ghost said:
I'm sorry, but what the hell does that topic mean?
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It means what it says sir. May I point you to www.m-w.com for grammar lessons this thread is about Windows Vista :)

Oh, by the way, USB 2.0 maxes out at 480 Mbps - SATA I maxes out at 1.5 Gbps and SATA II maxes out at 3 Gbps
Click to expand...

Yes that is correct.

ReadyBoost helps by basically mirroring stuff that's already been sent to the pagefile on the physical hard drive, hence the reason you can unplug any ReadyBoost Flash-RAM USB or media card memory with no ill effects: the data related to the pagefile is still sent to the phyiscal hard drive first and then duplicated in short order to the ReadyBoost device.
Click to expand...


Not quite...

ReadyBoost helps with small blocks of random I/O, like paging files, or pulling other random, small amounts of data. ReadyBoost can serve up faster than the a disk can locate. If the HDD has to move a substantial amount to find small chunks of data, ReadyBoost can improve performance. If a drive is streaming a video or loading a large game level, then ReadyBoost gets out of the way.

ReadyBoost isn't a pagefile replacement that i was considering, just an aid and only with certain things.
 
The data that's being stored in the ReadyBoost file on the Flash-RAM storage is mirrored to the pagefile contents, up to the size of the Flash-RAM storage. All this stuff is covered in the ReadyBoost Readiness Kit that's available in a posting here at the [H]ardForum.

If the data in the ReadyBoost file wasn't just a copy of stuff already in the pagefile on the hard drive, unplugging the Flash-RAM would have detrimental effects, sorta like yanking a hard drive out while it's in operation, or yanking a stick of RAM out. Hence, the ReadyBoost device is just mirroring content already stored someplace else - someplace else that's slower when it comes to the random access reads.

Note that ReadyBoost is just there as a stopgap measure for machines that can't provide enough chip RAM; this is specifically designed to help out people with not only older hardware but hardware that simply doesn't have enough RAM to adequately run Vista so it's got room to "breathe," as it were. It's not a replacement for chip RAM, far from it, but it can help with minimizing the effect of paging activity to the physical hard drive.

Oh, and Merriam-Webster isn't really for grammar usage, it's an online dictionary first and foremost. Your topic would have been far more clear if you'd said:

"I'm being trained by Microsoft for Vista's release... how can I help?"

Or something vaguely similar. :D I got it the first time I read it, but was irked at your choice of words and lack of specificity, that's all.
 
bbz_Ghost said:
The data that's being stored in the ReadyBoost file on the Flash-RAM storage is mirrored to the pagefile contents, up to the size of the Flash-RAM storage. All this stuff is covered in the ReadyBoost Readiness Kit that's available in a posting here at the [H]ardForum.

If the data in the ReadyBoost file wasn't just a copy of stuff already in the pagefile on the hard drive, unplugging the Flash-RAM would have detrimental effects, sorta like yanking a hard drive out while it's in operation, or yanking a stick of RAM out. Hence, the ReadyBoost device is just mirroring content already stored someplace else - someplace else that's slower when it comes to the random access reads.

Note that ReadyBoost is just there as a stopgap measure for machines that can't provide enough chip RAM; this is specifically designed to help out people with not only older hardware but hardware that simply doesn't have enough RAM to adequately run Vista so it's got room to "breathe," as it were. It's not a replacement for chip RAM, far from it, but it can help with minimizing the effect of paging activity to the physical hard drive.

Oh, and Merriam-Webster isn't really for grammar usage, it's an online dictionary first and foremost. Your topic would have been far more clear if you'd said:

"I'm being trained by Microsoft for Vista's release... how can I help?"

Or something vaguely similar. :D I got it the first time I read it, but was irked at your choice of words and lack of specificity, that's all.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are correct. I think it's how you presented it that made me confused.

FYI.. you come across as cocky, hair splitting and down right obnoxious. I gather if you knew me in real, you wouldn't act as such, I do have the respect of all my colleagues for reasons of I don't take peoples shit.

So for future reference have the ability to shed the arrogance and see that some of your remarks are simply opinions and are unnecessary. www.m-w.com is largely a dictionary

**Admin Edit**
It's thoughtful of you to share what you have learned, but leave out the hostility and namecalling. He presented another view of the facts. If you can't take a bit of criticism you might as well close the thread.
 
Fuzzy Logik said:
We use a utility called diskpart - this can be laucnhed from booting from the Vista DvD and choosing Repair, you can also launch a command prompt as admin. to run Diskpart from Vista - or use the GUI disk management.
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I am under the impression that diskpart was already available in WinXP. I have used it on occasion.

Fuzzy Logik said:
You cannot uninstall Vista, there is no uninstall option.
Click to expand...
I don't recall an uninstall option in either Win95, 98, ME, 2000, XP, 2k3 nor any linux distro that I have tried. Why would people even think about Windows Vista having an "uninstall" option?
 
drizzt81 said:
I am under the impression that diskpart was already available in WinXP. I have used it on occasion.

I don't recall an uninstall option in either Win95, 98, ME, 2000, XP, 2k3 nor any linux distro that I have tried. Why would people even think about Windows Vista having an "uninstall" option?
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maybe he just typed that by mistake
i think you should start a new thread,this one here is not going too well dont you think?
 
Clearly i've received nothing but criticism and lousy geek candor and am bringing absolutely nothing new to these forums about Vista. So there is no point in my continuing to divulge any information I may discover about the release version of Vista.
 
Fuzzy Logik said:
Ask away :)

Vista is only being released on DvD - no CD.
Click to expand...

Sorry wrong on this too. Vista Home Basic and Vista Business will be available on CD. Here are the SKUs from MS if you are interested.

Business on CD: 66J-02225 (single); 66J-02257 (3-Pack)

Home Basic on CD: 66G-00512 (single); 66G-00544 (3-Pack)
 
It was just getting interesting Fuzzy...I just came back from one of the launch meetings....I believe people will be suprised on how much has changed for the better. From what I saw it ran flawless on the machine....
 
You can also resize partitions from Disk Management inside Windows. However, just like 'diskpart' only certain types of partitions can be resized. i.e. the system partition cannot but certain other types can.

ReadyBoost is used mainly for files at or under 4kb. At that size the SD card or USB flash drive is faster than any HDD can be due to seek times involved.

"Volume shadow copy" is a new Vista only feature that System Restore uses, but does not work in Home Basic edition. It has far less system resource overhead than normal system restore, and it can be used to restore any individual file or folder on the SYSTEM drive (drive windows vist is installed to) even if its just a word doc. It also keeps imcremental updates over time so you could have multiple restore option on an individual file/folder if it has been modified several times.
 
Sorry, I was having a bad day yesterday.

Thank you for the corrections and criticism.

I won't be a punk ass and stop trying to let out the information I am learning about because i got sand in my vag yestersday.

Mind you things do change and what i may learn may change at any moment. I just have to roll with the punches.

Thanks guys :)
 
Ok, I have a few questions for you.
1) I just got the 8800gtx drivers for vista 32bit, my question is is there a way to change the special effect when you hide and open a window like on the apple OS? I seen some of the effects, one is like it's getting sucked into a vortex.
2) I got 2gb of ram and it's always at 31% of memory use when idle, does it go lower than that, and does it adapt when I play games by lowering the ram usage for the other O/S applications?
3) I installed a few games including HL2, Battle Field 2 and the expansion pack, how come I only find HL2 in my games and not the others?
4) Is there a way to run a game as the administrator instead of having to go right click and running it as administrator? I got kicked out of games in BF2 because of lack of privileges, I had to close game and start it as administrator
5) I noticed that it has improved a lot on moving, copying and deleting multiple files but on some programs I notice that there is sometimes a hang in the process, tried to install a patch for BF2, full install, took minute or so before it decided it wanted to open up the installer. Is this normal?

Since I got the 8800gtx drives it's been smooth sailing, if they fix some small things, offer better gaming than xp, and throw in some sort of better game in the package such as Online Uno, then I'll be game.
 
jtzako said:
ReadyBoost is used mainly for files at or under 4kb. At that size the SD card or USB flash drive is faster than any HDD can be due to seek times involved.
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That's curious. Windows pages a page at a time, not a file at a time. ReadyBoost is a feature of the memory manager, not a feature of the file system. Why does file size matter?

bbz_Ghost said:
I think what you meant to say is that Flash-RAM based USB devices have faster random seek times than a physical hard drive, which is entirely accurate. But it doesn't help much to be able to find a file in a very short period of time if it takes longer to actually transfer it to the PC for usage, and that's where Flash-RAM based USB drives fall tragically short.
Click to expand...
Well, of course it does. You have to seek, then read. Seeking on a Flash device is essentially free. If seeking on a physical disk takes 15 milliseconds, then the Flash device can spend that 15 milliseconds reading while we've not even started reading from the device with the higher throughput.

The numbers you quote are maximum throughputs, not real throughputs. If you use some real numbers, I think you'll find that there's a transfer size below wich the tradeoff is very acceptable.

There's also the added benefit of not moving the disk head if the request can be satisfied from the flash device. The disk head can stay where it is, increasing the liklihood of the next transfer being sequential.

bbz_ghost said:
All this stuff is covered in the ReadyBoost Readiness Kit that's available in a posting here at the [H]ardForum.
Click to expand...
It would be swell if you could post a link to that document. When I search for it, the only hit I get is your note here.

bbz_Ghost said:
ReadyBoost helps by basically mirroring stuff that's already been sent to the pagefile on the physical hard drive, hence the reason you can unplug any ReadyBoost Flash-RAM USB or media card memory with no ill effects: the data related to the pagefile is still sent to the phyiscal hard drive first and then duplicated in short order to the ReadyBoost device.
Click to expand...
Does ReadyBoost really replace the page file? I thought it was caching only read-only pages.
 
mikeblas said:
It would be swell if you could post a link to that document. When I search for it, the only hit I get is your note here.
Click to expand...

http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1126457&highlight=readyboost

Third link in that post, still active because I just checked.

fuzzy logik said:
FYI.. you come across as cocky, hair splitting and down right obnoxious.
Click to expand...

So I guess if I point out it's hairsplitting and downright (courtesy of M-W.com, of course) it's not gonna win me any popularity contests, eh? :D
 
ellover009 said:
Ok, I have a few questions for you.
1) I just got the 8800gtx drivers for vista 32bit, my question is is there a way to change the special effect when you hide and open a window like on the apple OS? I seen some of the effects, one is like it's getting sucked into a vortex.
Click to expand...

not within vista itself, at this time. Perhaps a 3rd party app? ;) Give it time, someone will do it.

2) I got 2gb of ram and it's always at 31% of memory use when idle, does it go lower than that, and does it adapt when I play games by lowering the ram usage for the other O/S applications?
Click to expand...

Using 1GB of memory i was idle 44% usage running Aero Glass. Are you running Aero Glass? It could be a memory leak :) I don't know, there isn't a KB on it as of yet that i have found. I kinda doubt it is a memory leak though, Vista and Aero Glass are just bloated. The memory usage largely depends on the application/game you are running. Some are better than others in focusing memory usage.

3) I installed a few games including HL2, Battle Field 2 and the expansion pack, how come I only find HL2 in my games and not the others?
Click to expand...

That would be the software manufacturer incompatibility with vista. It may run just fine, but not be listed.

4) Is there a way to run a game as the administrator instead of having to go right click and running it as administrator? I got kicked out of games in BF2 because of lack of privileges, I had to close game and start it as administrator
Click to expand...

Yes, turn off user account control in the control panel, user options. :)

5) I noticed that it has improved a lot on moving, copying and deleting multiple files but on some programs I notice that there is sometimes a hang in the process, tried to install a patch for BF2, full install, took minute or so before it decided it wanted to open up the installer. Is this normal?
Click to expand...

Vista runs services in session 0. So if driver and application setup files attempt to access services, (the best example is printer drivers attempting to access the print spooler service),you could run into the issue of not being able to view a GUI from the installation process, and or other issues that have not been documented in MS KB yet, such as a BF2 patch.

I think MS is gonna force the software manufacturers to adjust their installation processes.


Since I got the 8800gtx drives it's been smooth sailing, if they fix some small things, offer better gaming than xp, and throw in some sort of better game in the package such as Online Uno, then I'll be game.
Click to expand...

Games for Windows :)
http://www.joystiq.com/2006/12/18/games-for-windows-vista-how-a-new-brand-and-os-will-change-pc-gam/
 
I used wanna point out that the minimize effect that the previous poster is called the 'genie effect'. There is a question of legality of it being mimicked on vista, I dunno, but I know the beryl minimize effect adds waves to the genie effect because the genie effect may be or is, patented, long story short, the effect is easily done (a couple of changes to the code) but is not done by default to avoid the apple lawyers.

I know rklauncher does add/enable the genie effect.


Also ummm, can some one correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that flash cards are not really designed for constant write operations, that would be associated with it being used as 'ram', wouldn't using your flash drive for this sort of thing be bad for your flash drive??
 
As I Lay Dying said:
Also ummm, can some one correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that flash cards are not really designed for constant write operations, that would be associated with it being used as 'ram', wouldn't using your flash drive for this sort of thing be bad for your flash drive??
Click to expand...

That info is covered in a lot of locations, but one of the best single page FAQ-style ones you'll find is this one (the 9th question addresses the lifespan of Flash media specifically):

ReadyBoost explained, and some Q & A also

And make sure to read all the comments left on that page for even more info once you get past the spam. :(

Hope that helps...
 
As I Lay Dying said:
Also ummm, can some one correct me if I am wrong, but I am under the impression that flash cards are not really designed for constant write operations, that would be associated with it being used as 'ram', wouldn't using your flash drive for this sort of thing be bad for your flash drive??
Click to expand...
It isn't being used as RAM. It's being used as file cache. Another reason we know that the ReadyBoost memory can't be used to replace the page file is the "wear" issue for Flash memory. If a modified page had to be flushed to both the ReadyBoost drive and the page file, it would have to be written to two different devices. Plus, it would involve rewriting memory again and again. If, instead, only read-only pages were cached, we'd find that rewrites were much less frequent and more easily managed.
 
How does Enterprise version compare to the Ultimate version as far as features are concerned?
 
mikeblas said:
Oops! Try this one: http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista/getready/editions/default.mspx
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Just an FYI mikeblas, that page doesn't have enterprise on it either heh, it actually looked exactly like the first link when I followed them both.

Consider this "what I've seen"... Enterprise is only really available to VLK customers, so if you have a copy you're probably using a MAK key. The KMS server product isn't availble yet, probably causing some companies to hold off a little bit longer on actually deploying (I know we're waiting).

Enterprise has the bit locker drive encryption doesn't it? Business doesn't have the bit locker, nor do business and enterprise have media center.
 
Also...

To address the memory idle issue a bit more.

I was able to talk to a product tech working with Vista the past 2 years.

He explained that Vista Ultimate utilizes system memory and video memory much better.
There is I/0 priority built into Vista Ultimate. With WDDM drivers, the diplay driver doesn't handle quite as much as Vista itself. I wasn't able to get many "Hows" out of hime, but I'm conveying what I was told.

Also, ReadyBoost is not just the page file itself. It's anything that is cached in the RAM. If ReadyBoost can do it faster, it will, if not it will do nothing.
 
Fuzzy Logik said:
He explained that Vista Ultimate utilizes system memory and video memory much better.
Click to expand...
Much better than what?

Fuzzy Logik said:
Also, ReadyBoost is not just the page file itself. It's anything that is cached in the RAM. If ReadyBoost can do it faster, it will, if not it will do nothing.
Click to expand...
Right, kind of. The ReadyBoost is an extenion of the file system cache, more specifically. The cache normally take a great deal of system memory, since it's obviously much faster to get something out of memory than it is out of disk. As I pointed out above, even though a flash memory might not have as high a STR as a disk drive, it can make up for it over random, small transfers because the seek time is practically zero.
 
defuseme2k said:
Just an FYI mikeblas, that page doesn't have enterprise on it either heh, it actually looked exactly like the first link when I followed them both.
Click to expand...
Sorry. I suffered a brain injury when an enterprise truck rolled down a hill and pushed me into the front wall of a business. Or maybe it was the other way around. But for whatever reason, I just can't help confusing "enterprise" and "business" no matter how hard I try not to.

Point is, with a little searching, you can find more detailed comparo charts that show the differences -- including business and enterprise.
 
mikeblas said:
It isn't being used as RAM. It's being used as file cache. Another reason we know that the ReadyBoost memory can't be used to replace the page file is the "wear" issue for Flash memory. If a modified page had to be flushed to both the ReadyBoost drive and the page file, it would have to be written to two different devices. Plus, it would involve rewriting memory again and again. If, instead, only read-only pages were cached, we'd find that rewrites were much less frequent and more easily managed.
Click to expand...

notice how I had ram in quotes, I know it was not being used as actual ram, I was inquiring even with the small file caching, if it would effect the usb keys life-span.
 
Playing some games in vista sucks, battlefield2 sf randomly crashes, Half life 2 episode 1 crashes when I save, HL2 and all other games work fine.
 
As I Lay Dying said:
notice how I had ram in quotes, I know it was not being used as actual ram, I was inquiring even with the small file caching, if it would effect the usb keys life-span.
Click to expand...
Sorry, but I can't possibly guess what you specifically meant when you put "RAM" in 'apostrophies'. The system file cache is stored in actual RAM. The ReadyBoost feature was written with the knowledge that the involved storage memory has a limited lifecycle. The cache inclusion and eviction heuristics it uses take that fact into account and are designed accordingly.
 
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