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looking for a 7.2 system

X

XeRo_Dark

Gawd
Joined
Jun 3, 2004
Messages
1,006
Ive been reading about a 7.2 speaker system for awhile. now the way it is supposto work is that the subs work like stareo speakers which operate on independent channels, and the rest of the system's satalites act like a normal 7.1 setup.

Does anyone know if they have released a sound card that can support a 7.2 setup??

any ideas of any companies that make a sound card and/or a speaker system that is 7.2 OTB (out of the box)?

Though Bose lifestyle's system is the closest to a stareo subwoofer setup that can project bass on both sides of the room, with their "smart sub" as the Bose sales rep said at the outlet store in the mall near me told me yesturday.
He also claimed, it to be rumored that Bose is in works of a 7.2 system in developement which has capibility with computer sound cards which is in hope to compete with creative's sounblasters. This setup will include the soundcard/speaker system which all the satalites are wireless as is the other sub, for under $600....... so said the sales rep at the Bose outlet store.

anyone else hear anything on this yet?
 
Bose is really the last place you want to go to for audio insight. A 7.2 channel speaker system would require things to be encoded in 7.2 format for it to be even viable.... meaning Dolby digital and DTS needs to remake its algorithms to accommodate this .2 setup. Also, this would render all current receivers useless since none have the .2 feature.

One thing boggles me, why would you need a .2 setup? Bass is OMNIdirectional, meaning you shouldnt be able to tell where it eminates from (and if you do, your sub is messed up). Hence, adding another sub in stereo doesnt do much good since it wouldnt add to the effect.

Times like these, clarifies the idea that bose blose.
 
Here is a link to a current thread on Hometheaterforum.com regarding Bose speakers and how they suck, why they suck, and how badly the company tries to trick people into thinking their systems are the best.

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/htforum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=105270

You should take 5 minutes and read it, you might find it informative.

An excerpt,

"For the longest time, I had tried to tell him about how bad the Bose speakers were with little success. He was looking seriously at two Accoustmass Cubes and the Bass Module in the Bose store.

I asked the sales person why the Bass Module was not a subwoofer. He did not say "It is a subwoofer." He said it wasn't a subwoofer because instead of using one big driver, it uses smaller drivers pointed in different directions so that the sound reflects of many surfaces to make it hard to pinpoint where the sound is comming from. He even had to say that Bose did not make subwoofers.

Even my brother knows that bass by its very nature is not easy to pinpoint, and it is very suspect if a "bass" producing box has to fire all over the place to simulate that effect."

Basically, bose claims that their "sub" (although it doesnt hit below 40hz (my sub hits 16hz) uses multiple small drivers so that the SOUND CANT BE LOCATED.

WTF? A sub with a large driver CANT be LOCATED! Why do you need smaller drivers to do that? Besides, the drivers arent pointed in ALL directions... all 3 are pointed down dumba$$. The only thing smaller drivers accomplishes is it makes the sub much less able to move air, thus limiting the extension and the overall spl.

Just another way Bose tricks customers into thinking their ways are novel and great. Not unlike the 7.2 system you mentioned bose was developing.

Idiot bose.

PS
If you havent figured it out, bose isnt exactly well liked in the audio world. More like.... hated and laughed at.

7.2 might be coming out, but I havent heard of it. But the fact that bose is marketing it means two things:

1. It is a marketing gimmick.
2. It is an idiotic idea that only bose came up with.

If 7.2 is indeed coming out, thats news to me (although I still dont see the use). But it still doesnt detract from bose being conniving and tricky.
 
*.2 is not actually new technology, it just needs to make its way from the home theatre to the computer. Some HT receivers have two subwoofer RCA outputs (including one of my Yamaha's), and there wouldnt be a need for new DD or DTS formats to accomodate *.2. In my Yamaha RX-v2092, the receiver does the processing for the extra sub - it just sends LFE to both subwoofers, no stereo effect or anything since bass is nondirectional. One idea for placement is if you sit near the middle of the room, one sub would be at the front and one would be in the back.

My RX-v2092 Manual said:
If you wish to optain more presence in you listening room, the use of two subwoofers is recommended.
Click to expand...

PS
No bose did not develop the 7.2, and *.2 itself is not a dumb idea, for only diehard audiophiles would truely make use of it. For instance, Klipsch produces a 4.2 Promedia system.

Edit: Yamaha does assign a 'stereo' effect to the two subwoofers. The rear sub would accomadate the rear sound field and the front sub would accomadate the front sound field. This is on their flagship RX-Z9 receiver btw.
 
Do not get Bose if your gonna spend the cash go get b&w speakers and a nice receiver they will make bose sound like factory car speakers i went with 4xDm303 2 front 2 rear 1xasw300 subwoofer and 1x lcr3 center channel then a sony str-de897/s receiver granmted this setup cost me almost 2k and is not gonna be on my pc i will never buy any bose product unless it is a great deal meaning bose acoutamas full set working for like $100 if you dojt have 2 k to spend grab the nice logitechs or klipsch 5.1 thx certified speakers
 
Bose sales rep: "If you want Bose, instead, why dont you just hand me your money, we'll go out back I'll kick ya in the nuts and we'll call it even."

Seriously though you can do so much better for the money if you want great sound. I wouldn't even consider Bose if I were you, unless you like gimmicks.
 
Second the b&w's (bowers and wilkers) they are great. I own them myself.

Waiting to get Krause Acoustics speakers though. I'll probably be waiting forever $$$$$$$$$$$
 
XeRo_Dark said:
[stuff]
...so said the sales rep at the Bose outlet store.
Click to expand...

Exactly. In the immortal words of Chuck D, don't believe the hype.

With that said, dual subwoofer configurations are more common than you might think. They don't have to be made by Bose, however. In fact, it's better if it isn't. ;)
 
That extra .1 channel could be useful for the so-called "bass shakers" that many home theaters have.
 
7.2 is not accurate

It is more like 7.1+1 more sub

The 2 sub channels are outputting the same information. It is just there are 2 connections. It is like have 2 center channels, but just for bass.

Also any good hometheater guy will tell you NOT to put multiple subwoofers in different corners of room. It just causes cancellation and humps in your frequency range. For the non-hometheater inclined, it just means you audio setup is colored and will suck.

Since 2 subs or .2 would then be in the same corner really close to one another and the fact that the lower the frequency the harder to determine its location, it will sound like .1

So 7.2 = 7.1 with a y adapter and 2 subs
 
the LFE can't be broken down because it is omnidirectional. It doesn't matter where you put a sub it'll sound the same. So x.2 is accurate because you can't really have 2 seperate LFE channels, just 2 subs
 
Interesting, but I still stand by the fact that .1 means LFE, not how many subs are connected to the LFE channel. Since there is only 1 LFE channel, there is only .1

But in this case with 2 subs.
 
I agree with Treyshadow on the .1 vs .2 issue. I'd only say it was a true 7.2 when they start encoding things as such, which I doubt will happen. I've heard some rumors of things like 9.3 and 10.3 though, which would add height channels... and more subs, for whatever you really need 3 separate LFE tracks for. I'm getting a pair of AV123 UFW12's that I'll be running as pseudo stereo, one behind each main speaker, but that will simply involve getting a y-connector and duplicating the LFE to each. We'll see how a pair of 12" subs does against one sub with dual 12" drivers :D
 
Bugalaman said:
So x.2 is accurate because you can't really have 2 seperate LFE channels, just 2 subs
Click to expand...

While you can't have two LFE channels, you can have two subs; one a tight tuneful musical sub, and one a loud bottom-feeder. You route the <80 htz audio from the other five channels to the musical sub, and the LFE effects to the bottom-feeder. It's a right tool for the right job thing. It's also a Mr. Moneybags thing, but what good audio gear isn't?

Read the link I posted if you want more info. The guy makes a pretty convincing case, although the proof of the pudding is in the eating, and I've not heard such a setup with my own ears.
 
I understand completely on this one. I have 2 SVS 20-39CS+ in my hometheater room. My Pioneer Elite 49TXi has 2 sub inputs and I have one above the other using crossovers, but not the cross overs from the receiver.

Since the receiver is not doing the cross over, I don't consider the LFE channel split into .2, just a .1 with someone trying to flatten their response curve by enabling more bass at lower frequencies.
 
slight comment on the people hacking bose

bose has 2 divisions
pro and consumer

i work in pro audio so i know a little about this

bose has GREAT stuff
they are just abnormal
they dont follow trends and they dont follow the "norm" of audio
they are inovators
i will admit some of their stuff is funky and not its all cracked up to be
but there is a TONNE of engineering they throw into their gear
most is designed/developed for the PRO world 90% of the market here is SPEACH ONLY
no big booming bass no super high SPL number
but clarity and that untangible "good" sound

bose ROCKS at making it sound GOOD
they suck ass at making it sound CORRECT

bose processes the snot out of all their speakers
lord help you if you run a bose sound system without a bose EQ

bose DOES make subwoofers
they are called Bose accounstic wave cannons
they are based on transmision lines and are huge and sound excellent
incedibly clear bass and modular so you can bolt any number together and achieve your desired spl, db whatever

again
bose ROCKS for speach
sucks for full range music

they can do it but they arent best suited for it

as for 7.2
bass is generally omnidirectional HOWEVER
that only means its going in all directions from a point source
surely you can tell which direction its coming from
i know i can

7.2 was if i am not mistaken designed to remove some of this effect and also permit other cool effects like having a plane fly over your head from front to back
a .1 sub will just shake
a .2 will be able to convey direction to the movement of the plane

i also believe this was mostly designed for big movie theatres
but in time it will be scaled down to home market (ala 7.1)

one major beef i have with .2 setups is the god aweful phase problems you would have
anything above 60hz will phase like crap in a normal room size
your gonna get nastry dead zones and hot spots all over with 2 subs
waves cancel and add you cant help that it will sound good to ONE person in the room the rest gets shity sound (though this is true for most surround setups)

and one last thing the guy with the 16hz sub
just wondering what you got in that?
what kinda power?
and wondering what the specs are on it
is it flat to 16hz?
-3db at 16hz
-10?
any idea?
and FYI most if not all but the most crazy techno has almost all of it bass in the 40-80hz range

no one goes to 20hz not even big movie theatres
40hz with a huge cone area is what you want to FEEL bass

but if you insist on super subsonic
check out adireaudio.com
DIY audio
Parthenon
 
Very well stated MetalDwarf.

Since most people have rooms smaller than say 20x20x9 that they are stacking speakers in I am not sure if the size constraints will allow for proper transition of low frequency transient waves (<35 Hz). Since bass is omni directional, and the point of concentration would be so close to the listeners, without good equalization, the end product would be a very spiky response curve (lots of humps) in a 7.2 setup.

What I mean is it would be very difficult to properly deploy 7.2 in the average size living room or hometheater room/game room. So in effect, you will get 7.1 (since your source is at most 7.1 anyway).
 
I seem to remember a few movies that drop below 20hz.

U-571 I know does down to 10hz during the depth charge explosions. Not that you could hear it but you could feel it.
 
U-571 I know does down to 10hz during the depth charge explosions
Click to expand...

cool page never seen something like that before

looked at the u571 image
it does have data sub 20hz BUT its about -12dB quieter then the stuff at 40-50hz
you wont hear it

if you had a MONSTER setup you could feel it but the gear needed is obsene

additionally most if not all consumer gear has a high pass filter usually in the 20-30hz range so that it will not produce anything that low this protects the gear and prevents free air resonace in ported boxed etc. so the electronics wont let you go that low as well.

not saying it cant be done
just saying its expencive and hard to do
in a home theatre sized room a pair 18" drivers could do it i think. they would need a really impressive amp though
EV P3000
bryston monoblock
crown i-tech
etc
at that point why not go with an alternative like bass shakers?


also IMHO i prefer the sound of 4.1 over 5.1 and greater

it seems more surround to me
5.1 (dolby is especially guilty dts isnt as bad)
but damn near EVERYTHING into the center channel
whats the point of having 6 other speakers if they never get used?
4.1 tends to throw the sound to all the speakers evenly giving for a more "surround: feel
its purely subjective but its what i like
i think fundamentally there is a flaw in the more speakers is better logic
we only have two ears
why do we need more then 2.1?
with enough engineering i think it could be done
look at headphones
you can get really good surround effects through a good pair of headphones
aureal and a3d was the best i have come across
go play system shock 2 with headphones on and you will understand
 
More speakers than just 2 will probably be necessary for a long time. Headphones are of course mounted to your head, hence guaranteeing that sound reaches each ear simultaneously and from the correct orientation every time. Speakers have to be placed carefullly, and certainly can't be placed 10mm from your ear canal =] Also, speaker systems can be set up to accomidate multiple people, another marked advantage. I have seen some theoretical setups that involve just 2 speakers creating a full surround effect using 'hypersonic' sound that decays after hitting boundaries back into sound within the range of the human ear, so we'll see I guess.
 
Yes, sub 20hz can be done.

SVS B12-Plus/4 in a 20x18x8 room at reference bass levels.

For the amp, Crown K1
oh and don't forget about the Rane PE-17 for equalization

With LFE it
should do 100 dB at 20 Hz
 
SVS B12-Plus/4 in a 20x18x8 room at reference bass levels.
Click to expand...
ooo shiney
looks cool tried to find box designs but failed
whats in there 4 drives i think it said?
looks like a combination of 4th order and 6th order bandpasses perhaps?
hard to tell

For the amp, Crown K1
Click to expand...
anything crown makes is excellent
as long as the power matches what your are driving you wont be let down

oh and don't forget about the Rane PE-17 for equalizati
Click to expand...
ive used some rane stuff before
pretty good but there is better out there
rane does some funky thing with thier power
im more partial to a active crossover myself
something ala EV dx-38
granted its about 4 times the cost of the rane but does WAY cooler stuff
or perhaps the uber swank lake contour system damn thats fancy
 
A B4+ is overkill =] A PB2+ can hit 10odB at 20hz in a moderately small room. I've leant out my SPL meter, otherwise I'd measure now, but I've seen bass at 16hz at 100dB in my room [9x16] I know my room is small, so that helps, but go to HTF and look up Edward JM's review of the PB2+.. it has all that info in it.
 
MetalDwarf said:
and one last thing the guy with the 16hz sub
just wondering what you got in that?
what kinda power?
and wondering what the specs are on it
is it flat to 16hz?
-3db at 16hz
-10?
any idea?
and FYI most if not all but the most crazy techno has almost all of it bass in the 40-80hz range

no one goes to 20hz not even big movie theatres
40hz with a huge cone area is what you want to FEEL bass
Click to expand...

I have the SVS 25-31PC+ subwoofer. It can go flat from 16hz up to the crossover cutoff point (of course I would need an equalizer to tame some of the peaks). I have it set at 20hz right now with one port plugged and two ports open. In my 10x12 bedroom,I can get generally about 114db total output from my sub at 25hz stock tune, about 105 db (corrected) at 20hz, and about 98-100db at 16hz tune (all in-room response, perhaps not as much if measured outdoors as Ed at HTF did).

I dispute the fact that no sub can go to 20hz... ever heard of the SVS PB2ultra or the SVS B4+? Those guys have 2 and 4 times the output of my subwoofer.

Go here if you want to see my sub and its bigger and smaller brothers:
www.svsubwoofers.com
 
Well, in terms of movie theaters, none in my area are anything special for sound quality, so I'm positive that my setup whoops the crap outta any theater in this state. Then again, my setup doesn't have to fill an auditorium =]

Discounting theaters, I've seen concert hall setups that were impressive. When I saw Jesus Christ Superstar at the new center here in Madison, WI, the show opened with a sustained ~20hz sound, probably at at least 105dB.
 
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