While I don't have a hard figure on the actual sales numbers, the estimates that I have heard on those in the know is far in excess of 10000. So we're still talking about 0.1-0.3% failure rates, all around the same time. Where are the rest to justify the pump's status as being called unreliable?
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Is there such a thing as a silent (or quiet) liquid cooling system?
- Thread starter ZionHalcyon
- Start date
And then we have the fan-free, pump-free TEC approach.
Fan Free TEC - convection H20 cooling
Good article, though the site itself is run by one of the most pompous guys ever to review hardware.
Fan Free TEC - convection H20 cooling
Good article, though the site itself is run by one of the most pompous guys ever to review hardware.
SpoogeMonkey
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kunsunoke said:
You're not kidding! That guy is an arrogant ass. He seems to think he invented tec's and silent cooling.
Happy Hopping
Supreme [H]ardness
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Top Nurse said:Actually if you read that link you will see that they are in fact one of only about six (6) Distributors in the USA. Distributors are people who sell to e-tailers and retailers.
For someone who claim to be distributor, pretty high price compares to the dealers.
Here's this distributor price on the zalman reservator 1 Plus
http://www.sharkacomputers.com/zareplsicpue.html
$249.95
Here's a retailer I randomly pick in a yahoo search, you know, retailer as in people who buy from distributor.
http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=373043
$242.49
Well actually if the report of problem is so low I am quite happy to hear it. As people who don't have problem never bother to really post up and I bet there were more than few thousands of DDC sold (Keep in mind, this is the pump used in Apple's watercooling loop - at least I think it is )
(Keep in mind, this is the pump used in Apple's watercooling loop - at least I think it is )Cathar said:
Well I would assume they, for one reason or another, just don't post anywhere. Who knows? But what I do know is that the manufacturer's sure as hell aren't going to divulge their failure rates to anyone outside their company so we will probably never know. What we do know is that there have been reports of bad pumps throughout the world. So that tells me it probably wasn't a small batch of pumps that had problems, correct?
Now as to them being unreliable I really don't know, but if I get a DDC I sure as hell am going to keep an eye on it. To be truthful it just kind of makes me edgy as I have a LOT of money tied up in my computer equipment and I don't wish to take unnecessary risks over a part that costs less than a hundred bucks or so. Aquastream or Innovatek modified Eheims are starting to look a whole lot better about now.
Top Nurse said:
Why would you assume that?...that's a bit of an odd assumption to make, IMHO.
A couple things:
1) In doing the research for my latest rig, up until *this thread* in fact, I never saw an ill-word spoken of the DDCs. I saw plenty against basically every other model pump out there of one variety or another...be it just general feature complaints about size or noise, to other. For their size, the DDCs were/are regularly hailed as the best pump out there...
So just in my exposure, given the hundreds of different set-ups I read about that successfully used DDCs, the rave reviews all over the place, and until now not so much as a peep about "reliability", I would "assume" the exact opposite. I've read *many many many* good reports about DDCs, and what, like two bad ones? All in all, you aren't going to get much better than that anywhere for basically any product in general...sure, *someone* somewhere always has a complaint, if the run of the product is high enough...but my own experience generally has also been that when a product has 99% approval, half of the dissapproval 1% is due to their own fault, but they are blaming it on the product.
2) One of the general laws of the Internet: People who are disgruntled about something are more likely to post about it than people who are happy with something. So, again, I don't know why you would make that "assumption".
Personally, the only reason I didn't get a DDC was because I got a D5/MCP-655, because I wanted a bit more "umph"...Coincidentally, I long since ruled out Eheim's and others...
Top Nurse said:
No...that's something that may be generally true, but is not set in stone.
Top Nurse said:
"throughout the world" is just used to over-emphasis here...meaning what, like 3 different countries?...
Top Nurse said:
Why?...I just plain don't see how you leap to that conclusion. If it "probably wasn't a small batch", don't you think all the various boards would be flooded with complaints??...(BTW, see #2 above)
Top Nurse said:Aquastream or Innovatek modified Eheims are starting to look a whole lot better about now.
Couldn't disagree more. Personally, I'd prefer a:
- smaller
- higher performing
- quieter
- much cheaper
...pump to one that, well, isn't...for at the very least equal reliability by all measures that I've now seen.
...and of top of that, a quick browse through the English forums at AquaComputer shows that the Aquastream pumps are not without their problems either. In fact there are people here on [H] who have had problems with theirs. Do we now say that all AquaStream's are unreliable?
Nothing that is manufactured can have a 100% perfection rate, not even the pumps from some companies that people hold in high regard. Failures do still occur for whatever reason.
Wearing rose-colored glasses doesn't help. What differentiates a quality manufacturer from a junk one is one that quickly acknowledges, finds, and fixes the problem, and fixes or replaces any defective products in the field promptly. I do know what the problem was actually with the DDC's, and it has been fixed. There was a short batch run of them that had the issue, which exhibited itself in around 0.5-1.0% of the pumps of that batch run (going by second-hand information here), and was due to an electronics change requested by certain large paying OEM which had the result that occasionally the pump would fail to start due to the pump not providing sufficient power to turn the impeller at startup if the impeller stopped in a "awkward" position, which is why smacking the pump works because it jolted the impeller slightly just enough to allow the pump to start up. The problem only exhibited itself in pumps where the tolerances of that new circuitry seemed to be out of spec. That electronics change was subsequentially removed and the problem totally went away.
Sometimes it seems to me that some people enjoy taking whatever opportunity they can to leap on the smallest issue, even though it is being handled and fixed in a prompt and professional manner, as then being indicative of unreliability on scales far worse than their chosen product they wish to wave the flag for, when if one does a little digging we will very quickly find that the grass is no greener, but the glass that some people look through certainly seems rosier.
Seems to me that some people never want to see competition, and are happt to jump up and down and over-react on any single little hiccup in an otherwise nearly perfect reliability record. Would they be so happy if the same behavior was turned their way towards the products that they favor, which also do not have a perfect reliability record? I think not.
Nothing that is manufactured can have a 100% perfection rate, not even the pumps from some companies that people hold in high regard. Failures do still occur for whatever reason.
Wearing rose-colored glasses doesn't help. What differentiates a quality manufacturer from a junk one is one that quickly acknowledges, finds, and fixes the problem, and fixes or replaces any defective products in the field promptly. I do know what the problem was actually with the DDC's, and it has been fixed. There was a short batch run of them that had the issue, which exhibited itself in around 0.5-1.0% of the pumps of that batch run (going by second-hand information here), and was due to an electronics change requested by certain large paying OEM which had the result that occasionally the pump would fail to start due to the pump not providing sufficient power to turn the impeller at startup if the impeller stopped in a "awkward" position, which is why smacking the pump works because it jolted the impeller slightly just enough to allow the pump to start up. The problem only exhibited itself in pumps where the tolerances of that new circuitry seemed to be out of spec. That electronics change was subsequentially removed and the problem totally went away.
Sometimes it seems to me that some people enjoy taking whatever opportunity they can to leap on the smallest issue, even though it is being handled and fixed in a prompt and professional manner, as then being indicative of unreliability on scales far worse than their chosen product they wish to wave the flag for, when if one does a little digging we will very quickly find that the grass is no greener, but the glass that some people look through certainly seems rosier.
Seems to me that some people never want to see competition, and are happt to jump up and down and over-react on any single little hiccup in an otherwise nearly perfect reliability record. Would they be so happy if the same behavior was turned their way towards the products that they favor, which also do not have a perfect reliability record? I think not.
Like I said I have one on order so I am not entirely sold on the concept of them being bad. And yes all manufacturers pop out a few bad ones from time to time. It just took me off guard when I started looking around and found people in Far East, USA, and Europe with the same problem. Just couldn't see a small batch being bad that ended up all over the place. Perhaps we don't see a lot of the other stuff because the only people's posts I read are in English. Maybe there are more in non-English speaking countries as well, no? BTW, who was the OEM?
I think "small" is perhaps being misunderstood. If you ship tens of thousands of items, "small" can be quite large. I don't know if I'm at liberty to discuss the topic any further, so I choose not to.
The problem was acknowledged and is fixed though. Have not seen any new reports online of the issue in the last 3-4 months and in that time many thousands of the pumps have shipped through various vendors and channels.
I know though that if someone is unlucky enough to happen across a pump with the issue that they are generally well covered and the pump will be replaced.
The problem was acknowledged and is fixed though. Have not seen any new reports online of the issue in the last 3-4 months and in that time many thousands of the pumps have shipped through various vendors and channels.
I know though that if someone is unlucky enough to happen across a pump with the issue that they are generally well covered and the pump will be replaced.
nigely said:
From a national distributor who also handles pump complaints and returns. They said the value was ~0.1% of all pumps, but admitted that not everyone would return or complain so it could be a little higher, hence the 0.3% figure which is my fudged estimate.
Steeeeve said:Aren't you the guy who created Swiftechs new waterblock....and people are questioning you
I co-operated with Swiftech and agreed to share the block design with them.
As for any other association with Swiftech, I am still largely independent, but I do keep my ear to the ground on important issues that affect the community and do my best to dig into and get explanations for issues when I see that anecdotal evidence is being substituted for hard data.
my point exactly...you know your stuff
I just found it odd that people were questioning such a credible source.
I hope you were satisfied with the swiftech block that you helped with
You didn't have anythign to do with their new GPU block that "in theory" is coming out really soon did ya?
I just found it odd that people were questioning such a credible source.
I hope you were satisfied with the swiftech block that you helped with
You didn't have anythign to do with their new GPU block that "in theory" is coming out really soon did ya?
Happy Hopping
Supreme [H]ardness
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what about that guy who has the leakage from his dangerdek and the water leak to the PCI Express slot and damage the card and the motherboard? That was a really bad story. I read that less than 5 days ago, is it from here, or Pro cooling?
Does anyone recall that post?
Does anyone recall that post?
SpoogeMonkey
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Hell, I could buy a $12,000 Ford Escort or a $250,000 Lamborghini. Just because the Lambo costs alot more, it doesn't mean that it's never going to break.
Like Cathar said, anything that is manufactured if going to have a bad batch at some time. Look at all the bad chips Intel has shipped out, but yet they still own 80% of the market.
Like Cathar said, anything that is manufactured if going to have a bad batch at some time. Look at all the bad chips Intel has shipped out, but yet they still own 80% of the market.