Ghosting Vs. Motion Blur

[steal]

If LCD's blur, and CRT's also blur, then why should we care about blurring? With CRT's as our reference for perfection, if something can at least match it here, but beat it everywhere else, then that's a good thing right?

Probably because a CRT blurs so little that it's not even noticeable to the human eye unless you're 6 inches away from the screen looking for the slightest amount of blur.

LCDs on the other hand.. well, load up de_dust in cs, move the mouse around, and the blurring is just fucking obscene.

 

[steal]

The baseline for blur still seems to be an individual opinion, not a baseline at all. If I sit and try to read this forum at default settings (font size) on my 21” CRT I have to sit much closer to the screen. The text is not crisp and if you get real close you can easily see a lot of deformation of the text. If I use my 213T I can sit 3 feet back and read it perfectly. If I look very close the text is has much better formation, thus making it easier to read. I don’t have IIC’s 21-year-old eyes; I’m 56 and wear trifocals. Blur on a static screen is blur to me. My baseline for the moment.

I then took a DVD; a source of what I thought was a “known quantity”. The movie I used was the latest Star Wars. (Not the new release of the old ones) On the CRT I saw pretty good reproduction of all the effects and it was very pleasing to watch. On the LCD it was very easy to start picking apart the production. The CGI effects suddenly became not so good, the painted models were poorly painted, something you don’t see on the big screen or CRT sets. The makers of the movie have no reason to go beyond a given technology because most consumers simply can’t see the difference.

Anywho, for the moment, that to me is blur.

Did you also notice on the LCD that the blacks were absolute dogshit compared to the CRT? =o/

 

[GreenX]

Wow, thanks for putting that into words. I’ve been playing with a side by side comparison a good part of the day between my View Sonic P810 with component inputs and my Samsung 213T. I am using a 9800 pro 128 video card.

The last thing I wanted to do was drag that 21” CRT monster to my desk and play, but this thread started to really make me thing hard.

Doom 3 at 1600 X 1200 on both monitors with my video card sucks big time. But, and this is a big but, the suckage is more visible on the LCD then it is on the CRT. When I run at 1280 X 1024 the CRT looks much better for sure, but even at non-native resolution on the Samsung I see more detail. The CRT can’t reproduce that at all. The blurred textures are indeed blurred but the CRT seems to mask that part. If I play in a window on the Samsung it becomes a lot more obvious that the some of the scenes are not really rendered as well as one might expect. Again, the CRT tends to mask this as well. From this I can only conclude that many of the LCD monitors that are a step above my 213T exacerbate this issue to a whole new level.

I then went and started looking at some very high-resolution jpegs. It was very easy to pick out very small details on the photographs on the LCD that the CRT could not produce.

I think IIC and I are on the same track here. I think…

I liken it to suddenly switching to a dollars no object stereo only to find some of your CD’s really do suck fidelity wise. You just never heard it before.

You did a test on STATIC images. Were talking MOTION blur.

 

[GreenX]

Probably because a CRT blurs so little that it's not even noticeable to the human eye unless you're 6 inches away from the screen looking for the slightest amount of blur.

LCDs on the other hand.. well, load up de_dust in cs, move the mouse around, and the blurring is just fucking obscene.

exactly. again its not "barely can see if under certain conditions".you can easily see it.

 

[BillR]

You did a test on STATIC images. Were talking MOTION blur.

Guess you didn't read the "DOOM 3" part.

 

[BillR]

Steal,

I’m not at all sure why you feel you must resort to profanity to make what you think is a point.

My black levels on both my CRT and LCD are so close the “ColorPlus” can’t tell much if any difference. No monitor is worth beans if you don’t take the time to calibrate it.

CRT blur is very easy to see. The fact that we have been living with it for so long it’s become the “Norm” to our eyes. No one is denying that a good CRT isn’t pleasant to look at. What I think is being said is that on the more advanced technology screens we are seeing more defects in what we are viewing.

One of these days you will realize that CRT is all but dead, whether this year or the next they will (the good ones at least) be gone. Look at the dearth of CRT displays that exist today, you only have 2 or three choices anymore.

Things change, learn to roll with it

 

[BigDH01]

Did you also notice on the LCD that the blacks were absolute dogshit compared to the CRT? =o/

Did you notice how color vibrancy on your CRT looks like dogshit compared to an LCD??


Seriously people, you need to get a life. Do you think your monitor has anything to do with the size of your penis? You argue like it does. You are also bickering about, what is in the end, personal preference. Give it up already. The original post was about the difference between motion blur and ghosting and I have no idea how the black level on your uber CRT has anything to do with this. I suggest this thread be locked as a civil discussion about the differences between CRTs and LCDs is impossible due to the overproduction of testosterone by the members of this board. Your monitor is not your life, deal with it.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

Yeah, ok. Do you have a small penis? That's the only reason I could figure for you even bring this up. I'm not here to argue someoone else into oblivion; I'm here to further my own knowledge and the knowledge of others- the reason a forum exists. I do understand LCD's, I do understand motion blur and I do understand ghosting. I am here to hear how other people understand it, and maybe find a more common ground of quantifying it than simply saying 'this monitor sucks.'


--Could you call ghosting a blur of edges, and blurring a blur of textures? as I said before, I believe they are the same basic thing.

 

[BillR]

Did you notice how color vibrancy on your CRT looks like dogshit compared to an LCD??


Seriously people, you need to get a life. Do you think your monitor has anything to do with the size of your penis? You argue like it does. You are also bickering about, what is in the end, personal preference. Give it up already. The original post was about the difference between motion blur and ghosting and I have no idea how the black level on your uber CRT has anything to do with this. I suggest this thread be locked as a civil discussion about the differences between CRTs and LCDs is impossible due to the overproduction of testosterone by the members of this board. Your monitor is not your life, deal with it.

Winky size not withstanding IIC and I were trying to reach common ground as to what is and is not blur and ghosting and why we see what we do. Learning is why we are here, we learn through discussion and sharing experience and points of view.

If people insist on jumping in and trying to trash a thread with unfounded opinion and ignorance that is nothing I have control over.

Three quarters of this forum is plagued with questions that could be simply answered with a simple “google” search. We try to answer anyway and provide help. God forbid we should learn a bit ourselves through discussion.

 

[Evoken]

After researching for weeks, I hadn't found anyone mentioning blur, just whether or not an LCD ghosted. If I knew that blur was guaranteed I never would have got an LCD. So this is a great thread.

My new VX910 is great for general 2d applications. The blacks and whites are great and the colours are awesome. Even though I run my CRT @ 100hz, the LCD still put far less strain on my eyes. No reflections even though there is a window behind me is awesome. Animation looks nice too, very happy with that.

But with games... very very disapointing. And my OPINION after playing computer and console games on CRT displays since 84 (2600) is that LCDs are not even an option for shooters/car games. I havn't had an RTS or CRPG to try out yet but they hould be ok?..

When i was testing painkiller on the LCD, my fiance walked past (looked for 4 seconds) and commented 'that would make me sic'.

I'll buy a high end 19" crt for games and use it until LCDs achive a 4ms response time (if ever).

 

[Roger]

Did you also notice on the LCD that the blacks were absolute dogshit compared to the CRT? =o/

That's one of the downsides of LCD's that I think are blown way out of proportion. Yes, blacks on LCD's aren't really black but rather dark grey. Thing is, CRT's are not THAT much better either. Take a look at a turned off CRT screen. That's the blackest black that the monitor can display. Does it look like true black? No it doesn't. At least to me it doesn't. In fact, in a brightly lit room my LCD's blacks looks darker than on a CRT. Of course, in darkness, I can see some backlight passing through crystals on my LCD and it makes blacks look dark grey. Here, CRT is alot better but not perfect as I can see that phosphors are still very slightly illuminated. Yes, I'm aware I can turn the brightness down and get "perfect" blacks but then the image would not be as vivid as it is now. Bottom line is, although I prefer blacks on a CRT, LCD's are not that bad at all.

 

[steal]

Steal,

I’m not at all sure why you feel you must resort to profanity to make what you think is a point.

My black levels on both my CRT and LCD are so close the “ColorPlus” can’t tell much if any difference. No monitor is worth beans if you don’t take the time to calibrate it.

CRT blur is very easy to see. The fact that we have been living with it for so long it’s become the “Norm” to our eyes. No one is denying that a good CRT isn’t pleasant to look at. What I think is being said is that on the more advanced technology screens we are seeing more defects in what we are viewing.

One of these days you will realize that CRT is all but dead, whether this year or the next they will (the good ones at least) be gone. Look at the dearth of CRT displays that exist today, you only have 2 or three choices anymore.

Things change, learn to roll with it

CRT blur is not easy to see. In fact it hardly exists. The fact that you think that you can see it just proves your bias.

That said, the CRT is not dead. In fact the only advantage a LCD has over a CRT is size. That's it. Vibrant colors don't count, because they are not accurate. Accurate color reproduction is important to me, and many other users.

LCD technology is simply not up to par at the moment. Maybe someday it will be, but that day is at the very least a few years off.

Did you notice how color vibrancy on your CRT looks like dogshit compared to an LCD??


Seriously people, you need to get a life. Do you think your monitor has anything to do with the size of your penis? You argue like it does. You are also bickering about, what is in the end, personal preference. Give it up already. The original post was about the difference between motion blur and ghosting and I have no idea how the black level on your uber CRT has anything to do with this. I suggest this thread be locked as a civil discussion about the differences between CRTs and LCDs is impossible due to the overproduction of testosterone by the members of this board. Your monitor is not your life, deal with it.

Another poster brought up image quality. I did not.

 

[Roger]

In fact the only advantage a LCD has over a CRT is size. That's it. .

Don't want to turn this thread even more into a LCD vs CRT debate but that just isn't true. LCD's have many advantages over CRT's besides their small footprint. They have perfect geometry, convergence and focus. The screen is perfectly flat and square. They are also far sharper, brighter, don't flicker and are much easier on the eyes. Then, there's lower power consuption and lower radiation.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

Don't want to turn this thread even more into a LCD vs CRT debate but that just isn't true. LCD's have many advantages over CRT's besides their small footprint. They have perfect geometry, convergence and focus. The screen is perfectly flat and square. They are also far sharper, brighter, don't flicker and are much easier on the eyes. Then, there's lower power consuption and lower radiation.

This is why we're still arguing Radiation == heat output- man that matters alot in Texas

 

[steal]

Don't want to turn this thread even more into a LCD vs CRT debate but that just isn't true. LCD's have many advantages over CRT's besides their small footprint. They have perfect geometry, convergence and focus. The screen is perfectly flat and square. They are also far sharper, brighter, don't flicker and are much easier on the eyes. Then, there's lower power consuption and lower radiation.

A good CRT doesn't flicker, and is just as sharp as any LCD.

As for convergence, geometry, and focus.. well, that comes at the cost of a fixed resolution and interpolation in any other res

 

[BillR]

CRT blur is not easy to see. In fact it hardly exists. The fact that you think that you can see it just proves your bias.

That said, the CRT is not dead. In fact the only advantage a LCD has over a CRT is size. That's it. Vibrant colors don't count, because they are not accurate. Accurate color reproduction is important to me, and many other users.

LCD technology is simply not up to par at the moment. Maybe someday it will be, but that day is at the very least a few years off.



Another poster brought up image quality. I did not.

[“CRT blur is not easy to see. In fact it hardly exists. The fact that you think that you can see it just proves your bias”]

I’m not biased; text on a CRT is just not crisp and readable. (blur) A CRT can’t help it because it’s basic design means that the electron beam will illuminate more then one phosphor at a time, thus you get blur.

[“That said, the CRT is not dead.”]

If that’s the case why as almost every major manufacture dropped almost all the CRT sets from its line up? No new designs are in the offing from anyone.

[“Vibrant colors don't count, because they are not accurate”]

They are not accurate if you don’t take the time or have the ability to calibrate your monitor. Every major graphics studio I visit now use LCD as opposed to CRT. MAC, the supposed leader in graphics with their G-4 and G-5 all use LCD for intense graphics work, not CRT.

As for me I prefer an LCD after extensive testing and comparisons so I use one. I’m sure not trying to sell you one. Go buy what you like. No one here told you not to buy a CRT and I don’t think anyone much care what you or I like.

 

[steal]

[“CRT blur is not easy to see. In fact it hardly exists. The fact that you think that you can see it just proves your bias”]

I’m not biased; text on a CRT is just not crisp and readable. (blur) A CRT can’t help it because it’s basic design means that the electron beam will illuminate more then one phosphor at a time, thus you get blur.

[“That said, the CRT is not dead.”]

If that’s the case why as almost every major manufacture dropped almost all the CRT sets from its line up? No new designs are in the offing from anyone.

[“Vibrant colors don't count, because they are not accurate”]

They are not accurate if you don’t take the time or have the ability to calibrate your monitor. Every major graphics studio I visit now use LCD as opposed to CRT. MAC, the supposed leader in graphics with their G-4 and G-5 all use LCD for intense graphics work, not CRT.

As for me I prefer an LCD after extensive testing and comparisons so I use one. I’m sure not trying to sell you one. Go buy what you like. No one here told you not to buy a CRT and I don’t think anyone much care what you or I like.

No serious graphics studios or whatever uses LCDs. That's pretty dumb.

 

[Ice Czar]

You're absolutely right Idiot,

error

(1) Absolutely NO FLAMING OR NAME CALLING. Mutual respect and civilized conversation is the required norm.


the fact its the first rule, might just give you an indication exactly how strictly its enforced

 

[BillR]

No serious graphics studios or whatever uses LCDs. That's pretty dumb.

There is an organization called S.W.O.P. That stands for “Specifications Web Offset Publications”.

In the past when a graphics publisher had a ready to go piece of work they were forced to first print the work on a “specified printer” using “specified paper”. Then they had to electronically measure the color balance of what was on the screen to what was printed. Once that was adjusted as many times as needed the work could be sent to the outside “job shop” who would actually do the final print work, but not before the “proofs” were sent back to the graphic shop to be approved once again. This was a very time consuming and expensive way to get things done.

A group of graphics companies got together to form an alliance to try to cut these costs and make live easier for everyone involved. In about 2003 I think it was S.W.O.P. was started.

What evolved from all this was a “standard calibration system” by which what the artist saw on the screen was what he or she knew would print at the job shop, or print shop. The whole round about “Proof” system could now be by-passed in almost all cases.

What else evolved from all this was that the LCD monitor was the only truly continuously color stable monitor available. That still stands today.

As a rule you will only see “S.W.O.P. certified monitors on professional sites, but the fact remains the vast majority of them are now LCD, not CRT.

These are facts you can look up.

Please don't confuse the readers with opinion unless you state it's "your opinion"

Thanks

 

[steal]

There is an organization called S.W.O.P. That stands for “Specifications Web Offset Publications”.

In the past when a graphics publisher had a ready to go piece of work they were forced to first print the work on a “specified printer” using “specified paper”. Then they had to electronically measure the color balance of what was on the screen to what was printed. Once that was adjusted as many times as needed the work could be sent to the outside “job shop” who would actually do the final print work, but not before the “proofs” were sent back to the graphic shop to be approved once again. This was a very time consuming and expensive way to get things done.

A group of graphics companies got together to form an alliance to try to cut these costs and make live easier for everyone involved. In about 2003 I think it was S.W.O.P. was started.

What evolved from all this was a “standard calibration system” by which what the artist saw on the screen was what he or she knew would print at the job shop, or print shop. The whole round about “Proof” system could now be by-passed in almost all cases.

What else evolved from all this was that the LCD monitor was the only truly continuously color stable monitor available. That still stands today.

As a rule you will only see “S.W.O.P. certified monitors on professional sites, but the fact remains the vast majority of them are now LCD, not CRT.

These are facts you can look up.

Please don't confuse the readers with opinion unless you state it's "your opinion"

Thanks

Please just stop. You're getting ridiculous.

 

[BillR]

Please just stop. You're getting ridiculous.

I just posted a pure fact that even you can go look up. It's a world wide standard every major publishing company uses. No opinion, just checkable facts.

You stand by your "opinion". An opinion backed by nothing.

I’m ridiculous? That my friend is incredulous!

http://www.swop.org/

www.apple.com/

Check out thier monitor certiications.

 

[Synful Serenity]

You're absolutely right Idiot

I hope you know I was referring to IdiotInCharge!

 

[BillR]

I hope you know I was referring to IdiotInCharge!

I think Ice Czar missed your context SS. Don't think he realized Idiot is part of his nick.

Have a nice day anyway

 

[IdiotInCharge]

error

(1) Absolutely NO FLAMING OR NAME CALLING. Mutual respect and civilized conversation is the required norm.


the fact its the first rule, might just give you an indication exactly how strictly its enforced

Hell, I can't even find where he posted that. but I do not take offince, I use a similer name in CS and have people (including clan mates and nubs) shout it out constantly.

 

[BillR]

Hell, I can't even find where he posted that. but I do not take offince, I use a similer name in CS and have people (including clan mates and nubs) shout it out constantly.

It's only a bad thing when you add the modifier huh? As in you ______ idiot