Catalyst 8.3-8.4 Black Level Bug

S

Stimpy88

[H]ard|Gawd
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Feb 18, 2004
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Hello all. I just wanted to post my finding of a bug in the ATI Catalyst 8.3 and the latest 8.4 releases on my HD3870 card.

Basically I have noticed that the black level is much higher in these two driver versions. It happens in the following resolutions only, and the black levels are fine in any resolution not listed here...

1440x900
1600x1000
1600x1200
1680x1050
1776x1000
1920x1200

This bug is manifest when using Vista (I have no idea if this issue shows up in XP). If you have a high resolution LCD monitor of 22" and above, (where the lower contrast ratios show this bug up most) running at any of those resolutions listed, then as Vista loads up, look for a drastic change in black levels as the display switches from the green scrolling loading bar, to the animated Orb, the difference carries on into Windows, and all games and videos, fullscreen or otherwise.

I downloaded all of the previous Catalyst drivers, and have found that anything earlier than 8.3 does NOT have the bug. I have also tried all drivers with and without installing the Catalyst Control Center, and the bug is the same, so it´s nothing to do with the CCC. Also, if you use the MS provided display drivers then this bug is not present.

I have sent this info to ATI, but we all know that they never look at these reports, so I posted it here, in the hopes that enough people notice this bug, and then maybe ATI will get to hear about it!
 
No, I thought that too. I tried a few forced rate changes, but nothing changed the black level, it still looks dark grey, instead of black, so right now, I am running the 8.2 cats, as i can't put up with grey blacks! lol

Has anybody else with an LCD noticed this yet?
 
One option to try, go under the color tab in the CCC and try dropping your gamma to 0.70-0.85, depending on your taste.
 
That`s a good idea Blacklash, but I have already tried that. I just tried a friends monitor, and it also has the same problem if I install cats 8.3, and 8.4.

I also tried his computer on my monitor, and his has the same problem as mine when using cat 8.3 and 8.4.

I guess this is just not noticed because the contrast ratio on most LCD`s is rubbish, but LCD`s need all the black levels they can get, and its really noticeable to me.

Can somebody else, running Vista and an ATI card please watch the black part of the screen close up while vista is booting up, and changes from the green loader bar to the animated orb, as that is the point at which the ATI driver loads, and the black just goes dark grey.
 
I still use a 21" CRT because I cant really afford a LCD that could give as good a display as my CRT.
I gave $150 for this CRT im using now and for me to get a LCD display that can display as good as it can I would have to spend $350-500
 
As you have a CRT, do you fancy turning up the brightness a little and testing this out for me please? Thats assuming you have an ATI card and Vista of course!
 
running 1920x1440 on a 22" crt i bought for $20 @ 75Hz. Works flawlessly upto 2048x1536 @75hz aswell
 
I dont mean to be funny with you, but I did list the resolutions that this bug shows up in, and your res is not one of them, is it?

I really thought more of this forum than this, I mean really, how hard is it for an ATI 3870 owner running vista to try and look at the black level change during boot up for me...?

Oh well, I guess I will wait for ATI to notice this and hopefully fix it.
 
Some LCDs have better blacks than others and a bit of that is tied to the type of panel in question.

There should be some combination of brightness and gamma that will effect your blacks in the manner you desire.

I can not run 1920x like you do. I do often run both 1680x and 1440x.

With the 8.4s my black levels only change when I have altered gamma and brightness in the CCC and that's after the tray icon loads. While the OS is loading everything is at default.

All my computers currently have Vista HP x64 SP1 installed.
 
Thanks for the response Blacklash, my monitor is a brand new HP w2408h, and it has a contrast ratio of 1000-1, about the best you can get in an LCD monitor at the moment (Dynamic contrast means nothing).

As far as adjusting the control panel to obtain the blacks that you get as default from cats 8.2 and earlier, it does not change the black level back to black, but it does change the image, but just not the black level.

My request is moot now anyway, since I and a couple of my friends, have confirmed this bug on other hardware (Still ATI HD3870's and Vista) and different LCD monitors. It is a bug in the last 2 versions of the drivers (8.3 and 8.4), and you can totally see the difference when you use 8.2 and earlier (nice dark blacks, as black as the monitor can go, as opposed to washed out dark grey when you use 8.3 and 8.4.). I will try and get a picture of it when I get more time.

I have to say that I'm just totally disappointed in the response from this forum, in regards to people reading the post, and trying it out for themselves and reporting back. After all, I was only requesting that people watched their screens during boot-up, not asking for a hardware swap-out or something hard to do.

I will just sit back and hope for ATI to fix this issue in the next few drivers, but from what I can see, they are months behind today's reported issues, so even if they fix it now, we wont see the fix until 8.6 drivers at the earliest.
 
You could just go green and be done with it.
It's not like ATi is having the best luck with drivers right now, and with them breaking openGL and removing most openGL extensions from these latest drivers.... I just sent my 3850 back the Newegg and got me 2x 9600GT's. Best $250 I ever spent!
 
I can't open the control panel right now because of a messed up install but I recall there being a black level setting somewhere. Switching between the two options made a rather large difference in black levels. If you can find it that's probably what you're wanting.
 
I have cat 8.3 hotfix drives installed. There is no change in black levels when booting up Vista for me. I have Vista 64 bit and a HD 3870. Tried at various resolutions you have listed.

Just rang around a few mates who have Vista and a HD 3870 installed. Some have 8.4, some have 8.3 or the 8.3 hotfix. None of them have reported any change in black levels in boot up at any resolutions. Various monitors, including one 24 inch sony CRT(He does a lot of photo and video editing and is very picky, he would notice any change in black levels, He's using 8.3 hotfix)
 
Thanks for that Reaper! Nice work.

I'm really struggling to figure this out, as I have 2 different system (mine and a friends) that both exhibit this problem only with 8.3 and 8.4 drivers, all others are fine.

I wonder if it is to do with the fact that we have both updated the gfx BIOS to that new Visiontek one recently?!?
 
Stupid question I know, but have you tried the 8.3 hotfix drivers?

You might have something there with the BIOS update. I had my 3870 updated with a new bios that allowed the fan to work properely, but, during the 8.2 or 8.1 I started having minor graphic problems, and I thought it was heat, so I got a third party cooler for the card, but made no difference. So I reflashed the card to it's orginal BIOS and all the problems went away and have been working fine since.

PS:- Glad to help out :)
 
Hi Reaper, I tried downgrading my BIOS to the one that came with my card (069 down from 079, also tried 071 too) But no difference.

Also, 8.3 hotfix was what I was using when I discovered this bug, its also in the regular 8.3´s as well as the 8.4´s. I´m sure ATI wont have this fixed in the 8.5´s, as they will be a simular build to the 8.3 hotfix drivers, so I will have to wait for 8.6 or 8.7 before I have any chance of using anything newer that 8.2´s on my computer
 
Not sure how much help I can be as I have never used any driver pre-8.3. I run Vista HP 64 bit and 1680x1050 res, and I do not have a change in the black level between the screens you mentioned. I am running on an HP w2007 20" LCD monitor through DVI port. Now this may not have anything to do with it but are you using straight DVI ports or DVI to VGA connection? Maybe try swapping for the other style and see if that helps?

As far as bios goes....I have 2 diamond 3870s but I have a gigabyte bios flashed on both to get 830/1200 (core/mem) speeds and I adjust the fan with rivatuner. If you want to try other bios files you can find a good supply at: http://www.techpowerup.com/vgabios/index.php?page=1&architecture=ATI&manufacturer=&model=HD+3870&interface=&memSize=0.

I do not use 8.3 hotfix because it caused some funny graphical artifacts (some others had them also) so I just use the regular 8.3's now. The 8.4's dont seem to have anything worth me upgrading to them, and why fix what's not broken (at least for me). Also maybe check for a updated driver for your LCD, as mine had some funny colors using the one that came with vista, but all was well when i installed the one from the CD that came with the LCD.
 
Sorry to hear that the BIOS downgrade didn't work. I know it's a pain in the ass having to reinstall the drivers etc. etc.

Apart from that I can't see what else might be causing the problem. It doesn't seem to be an issue with the drivers as nobody I know has this problem, even withcat 8.4 or 8.3 installed. I rang all 15 people I know with the HD3870 and none have this issue (only 5 of them have Vista).

The only other difference is the maker of the cards. Everybody that I rang has HIS, I know this because I bought and installed them (15 in a bulk buy, got a great price :D). Soulcreatr has cards from Diamond. Your cards are from Visontek.

Maybe try a Saphire bios or a HIS bios like Soulcreatr says. But, I don't know if this will work.

Would love to see a picture showing the difference between 8.2 and 8.3. Maybe if I know exactly what I am looking for then I can compare better. But there is definately no going from black to light grey on boot up of Vista for me anyway.
 
Reaper, SoulCreatr, you two are real gentlemen!!!

You both have great ideas to help me work this out.

My monitor is a new HP w2408h, connected with an HDMI cable, through an HDMI-DVI adaptor, supplied with my card. I just can't get my head round this, as I already tried BIOS's from different card makers, as well as different revisions.

I have taken a very clear picture of this, simply by lowering the resolution and taking a photo of the underscanned area, as you can compare a total black background in vista, so the part of the screen where nothing is being rendered, its literally night and day. The only problem is that I have no idea how to post a picture on this forum...
 
Sounds to me like it's getting stuck in Video mode instead of PC mode. Video levels=16-236... PC levels=0-255. Hell they're only engineers. You can't expect them to understand these things... Oh wait.

Incidentally, your not crazy. A few folks over at AVS forums are having the same problems with ATI cards.
 
BallerX said:
Sounds to me like it's getting stuck in Video mode instead of PC mode. Video levels=16-236... PC levels=0-255. Hell they're only engineers. You can't expect them to understand these things... Oh wait.

Incidentally, your not crazy. A few folks over at AVS forums are having the same problems with ATI cards.
Click to expand...

How can this be resolved? Any way to modify a file so the black levels are more standardized?
 
Looking up your monitor I see it has HDMI and VGA inputs, yes? Try hooking up the monitor using the DVI-VGA connector and input to your vga port. See if that fixes it. I was sort of thinking what Ballerx said as my roommate's laptop goes into the video mode when he plugs it into the family room tv...and it looks washed out. Unfortunately I do not have a long enough HDMI cable to test my cards with my tv to check if I get the same issue. I'm willing to bet reaper and his friends all connect through DVI as I do, while many in the AVS forum use HDMI (as they should it has better quality!), and that seems to be the one big variable since you have tried other bios and things like that.

If the vga port works, it might be a temp fix until ATI catches on to it with drivers.
 
Thank you so much for your post BallerX!

I was starting to think it was me! But your explanation about video levels seems spot-on to me, as the image is also slightly more muted than with the 8.2 drivers (white level not making it to 255)

It does sound like the ATI drivers are generalising HDMI connectivity for video usage, rather than PC monitor usage. They need to get off their butts, and get this fixed, as with the latest HDTV's, you dont want your HTPC clipping your video output, your going to need the full range to avoid artefacts, and also obtain the best black levels on modern plasmas and LCD's.

SoulCreatr, I'm going to try your idea out tomorrow, and report back.
 
Does anyone know if ATI produces their own cards anymore? Or are they completely relying on 3rd party vendors to produce most of the new cards?
 
This is a driver issue, not a specific make issue. But I believe ATI gets one of their card partners to build the cards to ATI's reference design.
 
Well, I connect to my LCD screen using HDMI from my 3870 and don't have any washed out blacklevels when loading Vista. But, it sounds like a good idea to try out the VGA or DVI connection. The only problem is, will you be worse off or better off if the blacks are perfect in VGA mode? I mean you havent really solved the problem, only went around it.

If it is an issue with the drivers, shouldn't I be having the same problems?

And there is no quality difference between DVI or HDMI.

Ballerx, can you post a link to some of the posts with people in AVS forums having the same issues? Maybe There is something in common.
 
Well if reaper uses HDMI and does not have the issue....then maybe its some sort of conflict with the monitor drivers and 8.3+ drivers. I can't understand that anything else would affect it really. Maybe try setting the monitor as PnP generic?

As far as DVI and HDMI having the same quality....maybe I just buy cheap DVI cables because HDMI always looked clearer to me lol.

Hope we can figure something out for Stimpy, I know it sucks having nice hardware but not having it work correctly :mad:
 
LOL Soulcreatr,

Yeah, I hope We can solve the problem too, I just couldn't find any posts in the AVS forums that Ballerx mentioned. I was hoping to find something in common!!!

Maybe If BallerX is reading this He can post a link to those posts please!!
 
The only reason I know where to find this stuff is because I just had a heated discussion on AVS where I (NotSoCoolJ on AVS) was trying to help someone with a black crush issue. I pretty sure you'll find the thread amusing. I know I did. :D The main thing is can you get gray down to 0 and up to 255.

The problem your having is in a registry setting somewhere. Unfortunately, I don't have experience with these matters and Vista. I know you can change the levels in the XP registry manually.
All of that info is in this thread. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1007222
Pay attention to the registry mods..

Incidentally, they seem to be having the exact opposite problem. Some people at AVS think you should have Video levels coming out of your PC :p . I show them how to set your PC up so it is right no matter what;)

I'm gonna be busy for a few hours today. When I'm through I'll do some more checking and see what I can dig up about the Vista PC levels issue. It's the internet right. I'm sure I can find something.

P.S. Don't skip the part where I talk about proper driver removal. I would do that first. Oh, and for your sake, use Omega drivers. Hell, they might fix the problem right off the bat.:D
 
BallerX? lol, are you ok? You know He is having a problem with an ATI card? the link you posted and all the registry settings there are for Nvidia cards.

The problem Stimpy is having doesn't seem to be related to any setting in the registry. Why? Because He can see the problem happening on boot up just between the Vista startup screen and where the Vista Orb appears. This is just when the video card drivers are loaded. It goes from black to grey when using 8.3 drivers or 8.4, but is perfect when using 8.2 drivers.

Yes He is probably having problems with black levels in while watching movies and stuff and that link you posted will help in regard to that, but, that still doesn't help with his orginal probelm (which is probably causing poor black levels in videos too)

:) you are working too hard ballerx!! take a break and relax for a while :D
 
LOL reaper yes I am OK. I never said that this was the fix all. More than likely it is a registry setting. And yes it happens when the driver loads because the driver is looking in the registry. Just the same as Rivatuner makes DRIVER level adjustments IN THE REGISTRY. Those also don't take effect until windows boots the driver. So, I will maintain that it is indeed a driver level switch. I never said I knew exactly what to look for. ALSO why I said I would do more looking when I finished my business for today.

OK. I'm back. I have found a lot of people bitching about it. I'm not sure they are having the same problem as you though. So, Lets determine what the Hell your card is sending to your monitor FIRST.
Check this pic I made for PC level calibration.

attachment.php

Full size DL in ZIP http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attachment.php?attachmentid=104921&d=1205756435

Now, Set the pic in the zip as your desktop and see if you can calibrate your monitor for 0-255. 16 should be gray. If its black and your brightness is all the way up. Your outputting Video levels.
 
Well now, that is something that I never thought of!! Maybe the difference between mine and Stimpy's PC is Service Pack 1 for Vista.

8.2 Was released before SP1, 8.3 after. So maybe 8.3 Drivers and SP1 interface a little different. A few people in those posts you quoted BallerX seem to suggest SP1 fixes the black level.

hehe at least there is mention of ATI cards in the last few links you posted :p

Seriously nice find, I would have never considered to install service Pack1. Of course, We are back to square one if Stimpy has it installed already!!

So can you try that Stimpy? Install service pack 1 and reinstall 8.3 or 8.3 cat drivers and see what happens!!
 
Hi all, I have tried everything now, but using the VGA cable fixes the problem, at the expence of a slightly blurry picture, which is not really what I want on my 3 week old 24" monitor! lol

My copy of Vista already has SP1 directly integrated in it. I have noticed that the Video (Quicktime etc) is washed out, even with the 8.2 drivers. So I will sign up to AVS and have a look at the things BallerX recommends.

I have just switched off the DDC/CI support on my monitor, just in case its something wrong in HP´s settings inside the monitor. I will report back a bit later.
 
Yeah I kind of figured the VGA would set it back the way it should be (albeit it a bit less clear). I wonder if there is a way to just straight up turn off video mode....like a registry setting or something. I would love to try helping look around more, but my power supply just decided it wanted to go out after 1 month of use :mad: so I am off to buy a replacement and RMA the one (a spare later on wont be a bad thing I suppose).

Ahhh the joys of building and maintaining one's own computer :rolleyes:
 
To be honest, I have given up at this time... I cannot fix this problem at all. I have read through those threads on the other forums, and tried everything. I must simply conclude that this is a bug, and the drivers are somehow detecting my HDMI monitor as a HDTV and not a PC monitor, and there is no way of forcing the detection.

I am quite happy with the VGA connection, it works properly, and is a very good, sharp picture with no interference of any kind. So this is how I will connect up my monitor, and just re-connect the HDMI every time a new driver comes out, in the hope that ATi will get off their asses and fix this stupid problem. I will post here as soon as ATi fix this, if they are aware of it now, then I expect to post about this around the time the 8.6 driver comes out.

So right now, I´m using the 8.3 hotfix drivers and enjoying my PC once again.

I want to thank all of you that have given me meaningful help (SoulCreatr, reaper12 and BallerX) you have all shown me that this forum can be a good place to get intelligent help and advice.
 
Thanks Stimpy!!

Glad to help out, just sorry you didn't get it fixed.

As a test I installed 8.4 drivers as well to see what would happen, sorry to report but no change in black levels for me.

Hope the enxt driver works out better for HDMI for you.
 
Well guys, it seems that your just out of luck on this. I know for a fact that there is a registry level switch for this. What I don't know is what that setting might be or where it might be placed. Your best bet is to send a support ticket to ATI asking these very questions. Better yet, call the tech line and make them explain why they decided that the HDMI connection should output the wrong levels. Do what I do. Just don't hang up the phone until someone gives you the info. Berate the living hell out the Indian tech guy until he either looks the answer up or makes an engineer give him the info.

Last but not least, the best thing you can do is not use Vista. This is exactly the kind of crap the fanboys don't tell you about. Vista is great! Unless your like me and expect everything to work right or at the very least be user configurable.

I wonder just how many users there are that have no idea that they are clipping black and white. I wouldn't put up with useing the VGA cable. You may think it looks fine, but the HDMI will be better, hands down. As far as I'm concerned, this is a giant pooch screw and you shouldn't have to put up with it. :( The word is, Nvidia cards have the same problem in Vista. I personally use a DVI-HDMI cable. Does the card have DVI ports? If so, that could be your saving grace. Now you see how cheep labor degrades us all! They probably fired the engineers who would have caught this problem right off the bat. They don't want people who will think! They want people who obey! You see, I don't even have this problem and it annoys me!
 
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