Building a server case

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Cmoney90

Weaksauce
Joined
Jul 15, 2007
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Im building a server case for a friend of mines small business. This server will be running windows server 2008 and windows dynamic CRM. There will only be a maximum of 5 computers logged onto this server at a time. The budget is between $500-$1000. I know thats a big margin but i would like to see something inbetween those numbers. This is my first time ever building a server so Im not really sure what to go for.
 
Before spending much time on this...make sure you have their approval to at least multiply that budget by a minimum of 4.

Dynamics CRM wants Exchange Server and SQL Server. Microsoft Small Business Server will be a good fit for that. Exchange and SQL need some nut to run on...so you'll want to start with a Xeon for 5 users, a single quad core will suffice.

You'll want a pair of drives, RAID 1, for the OS, and 3 or 4 drives in RAID 5 or RAID 10 for the data and mailstore. I'd recommend SAS drives, but if they will be tolerant of slower speeds...some SATA drives will sorta do...OK. Don't go cheap and just do a big RAID 1 for SBS...you and your clients will regret it.

8 gigs of RAM

APC battery backup
Proper server grade antivirus
E-Mail filtering
Backup hardware and software
SSL certificate for exchange and remote access.

Might want to do all a favor and snag an SMB grade Dell server with OEM software installed to save on costs. ;)
 
I'd buy the cheapest hardware possible and then overload it...no don't.

This is something by the sounds of it you need to take back to the drawing board.

You will spend your budget just on disks.
 
Wait, crm, you can get an act work group version which should come with its own sql lite install. For 5 users I would say look into this, I have not used it.

You mention nothing about mail, files, etc?
 
Thank you for the advice guys. Ive been looking at some of the dell servers now. What would be some of the benefits of going with SBS over windows server 2008?
 
k1pp3r said:
Interesting. . . . .

I think with 5 users you will be ok with sata drives, just make it a seperate RAID array than your OS disks.
Click to expand...

Yeah we've always tossed that debate around here...to allow SATA drives on a server, versus stick with real server drives (SCSI/SAS).

After deploying more than several SATA based servers over the years...I do my best to stay away from them now. Slow performance, much slower backup times, painfully long Microsoft updates and reboots, clients that complain of slow access to shares, etc.

I have had some "OK" experiences with two recent (I think) T610 servers from Dell, SATA disks RAID 1 OS RAID 5 data. Not fast like I'm used to with SAS, but they were tolerable. Other Dell and HP servers with SATA drives....especially when trying to run SBS...ugh...rebooting them is like mowing your 1 acre lawn with a pair of toenail clippers....a very long and painful experience.

Not worth the cost in savings for my clients either....because since it takes me longer to do things on the server...my bill is higher. So paying for nice 15k SAS drives up front....they (and I) enjoy high performance, and as time goes by, my recurring bills are smaller since things happen on those servers in the blink of an eye.
 
k1pp3r said:
Interesting. . . . .

I think with 5 users you will be ok with sata drives, just make it a seperate RAID array than your OS disks.
Click to expand...

No way, you will get terrible performance on SATA for something like this.
Get two SATA anythings for Boot Drive and running the applications.
Get four 15k 600gb SAS drives and run RAID10 for the DATA.

Dynamics/SQL/SQL reporting/Exchange will destroy your IO on SATA

Also no one has really mentioned RAM, but running Dynamics(SQL) is very RAM intensive.
I just did a post-imp review on Dynamics GP for 15 users and they gave their box 24gb of ram. RAM can be used to offset slower disks to a point. So you could possibly save some $$ by getting 10k SAS instead of 15k SAS and double up on memory. SQL will use all the ram it can get its hands on. Thats where your transactions will be and if you have enough ram most should be cached and will get great performance. The downside is other operations (mail, file storage, running reports) will be slower because the data for those types of operations are unlikely to be cached.

I would say 8gb is a minimum and 16gb recommended

Bottom line
1. Get a larger budget
2. Get a SBS2008 cause it has everything you need builtin
3. Get SAS
4. Spend the rest of your budget on RAM.
 
Thanks a ton guys! All of these posts are easing my stress levels. I was thinking that this job might have been to big for me and my level of experience, but im pretty confident that I can handle it now.
 
Also, The OS requirements for Dynamics CRM say "Windows Server 2003, 2008 edition" would that include SBS?
 
nitrobass24 said:
No way, you will get terrible performance on SATA for something like this.
Get two SATA anythings for Boot Drive and running the applications.
Get four 15k 600gb SAS drives and run RAID10 for the DATA.

Dynamics/SQL/SQL reporting/Exchange will destroy your IO on SATA

Also no one has really mentioned RAM, but running Dynamics(SQL) is very RAM intensive.
I just did a post-imp review on Dynamics GP for 15 users and they gave their box 24gb of ram. RAM can be used to offset slower disks to a point. So you could possibly save some $$ by getting 10k SAS instead of 15k SAS and double up on memory. SQL will use all the ram it can get its hands on. Thats where your transactions will be and if you have enough ram most should be cached and will get great performance. The downside is other operations (mail, file storage, running reports) will be slower because the data for those types of operations are unlikely to be cached.

I would say 8gb is a minimum and 16gb recommended

Bottom line
1. Get a larger budget
2. Get a SBS2008 cause it has everything you need builtin
3. Get SAS
4. Spend the rest of your budget on RAM.
Click to expand...


Whatever you say dir, i have a client running microsoft dynamic, sql on a server with Sata drives, 4 users, they have NO speed issues. Its not running exchange though, their exchange is hosted.
 
nitrobass24 said:
Also no one has really mentioned RAM, but running Dynamics(SQL) is very RAM intensive..
Click to expand...

Sure someone did...I did up above....I mentioned 8 gigs. Realizing he's on a budget, 8 gigs will do OK for 5 users. Exchange and SQL are very dynamic when it comes to RAM..they'll suck up whatever they can get..but they still run OK on a minimal amount. Tis only 5 users. I recently did an SBS2K8 Premium box for a network of 8 users, they have 12 gigs of RAM in that server, 5x 15k drives..RAID1/RAID5. SQL for their club management software. They don't nudge it past about 6 gigs used.
 
YeOldeStonecat said:
Other Dell and HP servers with SATA drives....especially when trying to run SBS...ugh...rebooting them is like mowing your 1 acre lawn with a pair of toenail clippers....a very long and painful experience.
Click to expand...

You have my old server?:D

The old server for us was a pentium d 2.8ghz. Wait for it...

320gig sata's on raid 1 for os.
320gig on ide for vm;s, lolwtf?

It was:
win2k3 std edition
exchange
sql
file server
dc
jb server
file server
vs2005
2gig ram

I had some ways and got vs2005 off of it and more ram...

Yeah, you bounce that and it was go to lunch. 20+min to boot after it shut down. It was sofa king slow.

I pushed hard and now it is all vm's on raid 0 sas drives on 2 arrays on a dell r710 with 2x quad core xeons, 24gb ram, and it is as smooth as butter. I'll never do a sata drive for a server again. Granted, the previous was deployed before my time.

How many 400$ dell servers does one throw at it before doing it right? I have 3 400$ servers that the load was eventually put across, but the primary server was over worked.

IMO, get something to GROW into. Don't ever under size a server.
 
With the tone of this thread, hate to say it everone, but i'm dissapointed.

Guess this is why I have never lost a customer, and my customers trust my recommendataions to meet their business needs, not kill their books for the next three years.

Part of a being a consultant is knowning how to meet business NEEDS, not fulfill your wants, which is a lot of what i see around my area. Your talking about taking a 5 person shop, and building them a 20K server when all is said and done. For 5 people, now i don't know the expansion rate of this company, but most 5 person business don't plan to rapidly expand. Enterprise SATA drives would operate fine for Server 2008 and MS dynamics, as i have proven at one of my customers.

While i do support SAS, and have used it in many server installs, the NEED for SAS does not present itself in the goals set fourth by the OP.

I stand by my recomendation
Server 2008
MS Dynamics
SQL Express or foundation
Single Quad core Xeon
2 SATA Raid Arrays (RAID1 on OS and RAID5 on Data)
4 - 8 GB of RAM due to the memory intensive nature as stated above.

If you plan to run 1 host with VM's, you will want your VM's to reside on SAS drives instead of SATA. That would be my only concern
 
k1pp3r said:
With the tone of this thread, hate to say it everone, but i'm dissapointed.

Guess this is why I have never lost a customer, and my customers trust my recommendataions to meet their business needs, not kill their books for the next three years.

Part of a being a consultant is knowning how to meet business NEEDS, not fulfill your wants, which is a lot of what i see around my area. Your talking about taking a 5 person shop, and building them a 20K server when all is said and done. For 5 people, now i don't know the expansion rate of this company, but most 5 person business don't plan to rapidly expand. Enterprise SATA drives would operate fine for Server 2008 and MS dynamics, as i have proven at one of my customers.

While i do support SAS, and have used it in many server installs, the NEED for SAS does not present itself in the goals set fourth by the OP.

I stand by my recomendation
Server 2008
MS Dynamics
SQL Express or foundation
Single Quad core Xeon
2 SATA Raid Arrays (RAID1 on OS and RAID5 on Data)
4 - 8 GB of RAM due to the memory intensive nature as stated above.

If you plan to run 1 host with VM's, you will want your VM's to reside on SAS drives instead of SATA. That would be my only concern
Click to expand...


My server cost 7k total in December.
Dell R710
Xeon E5520(2.27ghz) quad core/hyperthreaded qty2
24gb ram
1x 72gig 10k sas for os/swap
2x15k sas drives in raid 0 for jb server(sql/shop software) & shop server
4x 10k sas in raod 0 for dc, terminal server, exchange/file server
win2k8 r2 w/ hyper v.

Everything is pulled to another server every night using backup exec.


20k makes me think of blade servers.
 
I just configured a Dell T610 with a E5506, 16gb RDIMM, 6x 146gb 10k SAS on SBS2008 Premium for 3900 with a 400 rebate on the OS.

thats a lot of server that will last a long time and be plenty fast for Dynamic CRM for the money.
Sure you could build something for 1500 and it will run much slower and youre going to end up paying your contract tech support guy $200/hr to come fix it all the time.

I would rather spend a little more upfront for something that you can grow into and comes with a warranty and OEM support contract.
 
Don't skimp out, buy a proper or a decent UPS! I see it so many times, "SOME" sys admins that are cheap and want to pocket the rest of the funds for a proper setup, buy power bars or some cheap ass POS apc powerbar APC, buy a dedicated UPS for the server, i bought a 1500va one for 120$. Worth it too!


If you buy a firewall some have the av software spam software and stuff built right into the gateway, might be a option for you also to have one, instead of having the server loaded with av softwares and slowing it down.

J'
 
Cmoney90 said:
Also, The OS requirements for Dynamics CRM say "Windows Server 2003, 2008 edition" would that include SBS?
Click to expand...

Yes....because if you read more about the requirements, you'll see it needs access to SQL and Exchange. Those can be installed on another server in active directory, as it can access SQL via ODBC across the network, and it can access Exchange across the network. Those don't have to be on the same box.

But since you're doing this for a network of 5....obviously you don't need 3 or 4 separate servers.
 
sc0tty8 said:
What the hell are you running?
Click to expand...

I tried synamtec, DAM it was slow, so i formatted my ( testing box at home ) and took it all off, no av software on it because im poor, and its just a toy box for now. I searched google and found no free av software for windows 2003 server or 2008 server.
 
dashpuppy said:
I tried synamtec, DAM it was slow, so i formatted my ( testing box at home ) and took it all off, no av software on it because im poor, and its just a toy box for now. I searched google and found no free av software for windows 2003 server or 2008 server.
Click to expand...

Someone wanna take a shot at this or is it on me? :p
 
I have no experience with this server but it looks like an incredible deal right now with the xeon for $350 so I thought I'd throw it out there.

Hopefully this link works...
Poweredge T110
Code: 
http://configure.us.dell.com/dellstore/config.aspx?c=us&cs=04&kc=6W300&l=en&oc=BEMT437&s=bsd
 
sc0tty8 said:
My server cost 7k total in December.
Dell R710
Xeon E5520(2.27ghz) quad core/hyperthreaded qty2
24gb ram
1x 72gig 10k sas for os/swap
2x15k sas drives in raid 0 for jb server(sql/shop software) & shop server
4x 10k sas in raod 0 for dc, terminal server, exchange/file server
win2k8 r2 w/ hyper v.

Everything is pulled to another server every night using backup exec.


20k makes me think of blade servers.
Click to expand...

RAID0, really? Do you run hourly backups?
 
dashpuppy said:
I tried synamtec, DAM it was slow, so i formatted my ( testing box at home ) and took it all off, no av software on it because im poor, and its just a toy box for now. I searched google and found no free av software for windows 2003 server or 2008 server.
Click to expand...

Try eset. Not free, but it isn't bloated.
 
5 users, meh T310 with 4 SATA or 2 SAS will be fine.

If not running exchange and just SQL could be overhtinking
 
marley1 said:
5 users, meh T310 with 4 SATA or 2 SAS will be fine.

If not running exchange and just SQL could be overhtinking
Click to expand...


That would be what I would look for. I do lean towards SAS is SQL is mention but Raid 01 Sata would probably be fine
 
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