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Budget Tweaking

Q

QualiC

n00b
Joined
Jun 29, 2004
Messages
28
Hello,

I would like to put together a new system (CPU+MB+GPU) re-using other components I already have. It seems like everytime I go about this, the list of possible choices grows expodentially, and I haven't been keeping up too well. I got some great advice from this forum last ti
 
I would like to spend $250 max (less would be better) on the MB+CPU combo. I've always avoided AMD because it seemed necessary to make physical modifications to cpu in order to OC, but would now buy one if that was best value. Looking through Anand's pages, it strikes me that AMD is now clearly best gaming CPU and maybe best bang for buck buying last generation? I know that some cpu's OC much better than others, but not which ones...

For the MB, most important things are OC'ing features and that it'll take my 184pin RAM (PC2100 Crucial 266mhz DDR). I will upgrade memory soon, but not at first.

I want a GPU that will excell with today's games, but that will need upgraded for next generation. I read that ATI cards can be re-flashed into thinking they are better cards, so hoping to find a good value in the $100-$150 range.

Thankyou for any help you might offer!

Q
 
Check out www.newegg.com its a great place to buy yourself a hard drive and other needed parts, if i were you i'd buy a new cpu, mb and vid card because it would only be another $300 for a 9800 pro with a amd xp 2500+ and an asus mobo with sata and 400mhz fsb
 
Yes, A new MB+CPU+GPU is what I'm looking to buy...have all other components. So you are saying that the combo you suggest can be put together for $500?

Thankyou,

Q
 
I would recommend a 2400+ or 2500+ mobile Barton. Then the Abit mobo, the max one.. It come pretty cheap, and is a really good board. If you're going to get a low-end card, get nVidia, because I've found that ATi's low end cards are teh suxor. You could also try to buy stuff of e-bay (a good way to get dirt-cheap components) or look at for sale/for trade foum here at [H]. I could also sell you my fx5900 flashed to custom 5950U BIOS, but I don't think you want it. You're an ATi fanatic, as I can see.
 
QualiC said:
Yes, A new MB+CPU+GPU is what I'm looking to buy...have all other components. So you are saying that the combo you suggest can be put together for $500?

Thankyou,

Q
Click to expand...
2500+ Barton-M -$88
Abit AN7 nForce 2 Ultra 400 board -$97

That leaves you with (500-(88+97)).. leaves you with $347 for a video card + HSF.

Thermalright SP-97 -$57
Total: $242. You get $258 left for a video card. I could sell you mine for $160.. or you could buy a new one for about $240.
 
oh, i miss understood, i thought you wanted new components besides cpu, mb and vid card, I would reccomend ati 9800 pro aprox $220 at newegg.com, with a amd xp 2500+ those run around $80, you can choose your own mobo or get a MSI KT6V for around $65, that mobo comes with 400 fsb, 6 chan audio, 8 usb 2.0, 2x sata ports, 5 pci and 1 agp 8x 4x. great system for $365
 
M4d-K10wN said:
I could also sell you my fx5900 flashed to custom 5950U BIOS, but I don't think you want it. You're an ATi fanatic, as I can see.
Click to expand...

lol...I've never even owned an ATI, only Nvidia. Last time I was shopping, Nvidia ruled the roost...but I'm really just not the "fanboy" type about anything :)

Q
 
Indeed. Well, actually I can't sell it for some time so just buy a new card. Unless you can wait 2 weeks.
 
CoMP_Abused said:
oh $500 limit? change to 2500+ to 3200+ for 180 that comes to 465 total
Click to expand...
What's the point? They aren't much better overclockers... same core.
 
good point, but i didnt know if he was going to overclock, if he is then 2500+ best deal and $100 less
 
I like the price of the 2500 and the fact it'll allow me a better GPU...and today's games won''t get bottlenecked by a 2500, correct?

Does anyone have a link handy that will explain what I will need to do to OC an AMD 2500?

TY,
Q
 
if you purchase motherboard i suggested you can do it in the bios as easy as pressing + and - in your CPU tab, and there's even a program that does it in windows. AIM me at KngoftheMnkeys or msn at KngoftheMnkeys@yahoo.com i'll show you some links to diff mobo's n such
 
Interesting...so are the days now past that you must "connect the dots" or otherwise physically mod the CPU for OC'ing?

Q
 
yup i can change my fsb from 170 to 180 or 190 with a few clicks and pressing enter, you dont need to set jumpers or dip switches on this mobo at least, different mobo's different ways to oc
 
for a top spec motherboard i would go for an abit nf7s rev2.0 or epox 8rda3+ rev2.0... the epox wont be quite as good as the abit for ocing but it has a sata raid controller and extra lan... if you dont need either of those the abit is universally accepted as the best ocer but make sure theyre rev2.0 especially the epox, the old version is crap... a lot of people would recommend the asus a7n8x-e deluxe but i have heard of lot of reliability problems.. if you dont want a serial controller you can save a few quid on a standard abit nf7 rev2.0 or epox 8rda+

all of those will let you overclock v.easily, all barton mobiles are factory unlocked so what you heard before no longer applies, work towards the highest fsb you can (limited by ram and motherboard) and then use the multiplier to find the best clock speed

the best heatsink is the thermalright sp97 but you will need to budget for a 92mm fan for it aswell, i have got a panaflo fan on a slk900a which is very similar to the sp97 (not as good though) and i can put 1.9v through it without temps going above 54C

and make sure you get a good psu aswell or everything else will be a waste of money, and you will need good airflow in your case
 
ok.. i have to put it in every post... but the cpu to get right now is this one.. http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-439&depa=0

$87 35 watt amd 2400+ xp-m it runs at a stock voltage of 1.35v which means at 1.8v, for example, it can clock at a much higher percentage than a chip that has a stock voltage of 1.65v.

for the motherboard.. abit nf7 or nf7s..
$64 http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-127-144&depa=0
$85 http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-127-166&depa=0

as for a hsf and video card... ask someone else.. cause i haven't reasearched these things recently
 
Considering that you plan to stick with PC2100 ram until later, a mobile you be a great cpu that can grow with you. A "stock" mobile runs at 133FSB (266 DDR) so you'll be able to run it at a 1:1 ratio with your ram getting peak performance. Motherboards there are so many that are just great boards, nf7-s, an7, a7n8x-e just to name a few.

I'd say get a nice heatsink (SP-97 comes to mind) and sit tight till you get better ram and overclock the shit outta it.
 
only the 2400-m has 133fsb, 2500 and 2600 are 166 so they would be underclocked if you keep your ram
 
-ChEM- said:
only the 2400-m has 133fsb, 2500 and 2600 are 166 so they would be underclocked if you keep your ram
Click to expand...
You could always unlock higher FSB by doing a pinmod, a wire-in-socket mod, or the trace mod.. either way works.
 
all the mobiles are multiplier unlocked... get a mobile... get a 35 watt mobile... the low voltages, unlocked multiplier and low price makes it the best buy out there right now by far...

run it at 133 x 16 or something... like that.. probably even faster... then get better ram and raise the fsb and lower the multi...
 
M4d-K10wN said:
You could always unlock higher FSB by doing a pinmod, a wire-in-socket mod, or the trace mod.. either way works.
Click to expand...

I am trying to understand this...please correct me:

1) FSB = speed cpu talks to RAM

2) Which CPU I choose matters because...AMD has on-die memory controller?

3) My 2100 RAM is made for 133fsb, so any cpu above a AMD 2400 would: a) automatically run at lower (133) FSB, or b) screw up my ability to overclock due to multiplier ratios (that I need to brush up on)?

4) But there's a way to trick CPU into thinking RAM is 166 by doing some sort of modification, which would do what for me? Also, what is the difficulty/risk of these mods?

Thankyou,

Q
 
I am curious why the mobile cpu's are being suggested...? My guess is it has to do with them running at lower temps, but isn't that only a function of them clocking-back or slowing down?

I would think that OC'ers would avoid any cpu that "thinks for itself" and slows down when it wants to...what am I missing?

Thanks,

Q
 
not really, a 2600-m has a lower vcore than a 1700+ tbred... to get the tbred to 2600+ would take a lot of volts but the 2600-m is already there so when you start putting volts into that it clocks v.high
 
ok.. the mobile cpus can only slow down when they are in a laptop motherboard that has some kind of thing built into the bios that tells it to... a desktop board won't be able to do tthat...

you need a more basic understanding of overclocking:
you can overclock a few ways..

raise the FSB... this is the speed that the cpu talks to the memory, but not tottaly.. when talking about memory the speed is always doubled... so you will see numbers that see to be conflicting... like 400fsb means that the cpu is running at 200mhz, and the memory is (DDR, dual data rate) this means that it makes 2 calcuations every clock cycle... so a cpu running at 200fsb and memory also running at 200 will usually be said as 400fsb.. because the memory is running at 400, or pc 3200 because it can theoretically move 3.2ghz of per second... (i forget how this is done) you can read the memory faq if you want to know more...

anyways...

your problem is this...

your memory is pc2100... the memory is only rated to run at 133mhz... but it might be able to go to 150 or so... but either way that isn't desirable...

you can run a cpu and memory at two different speeds... it is called using a divider... but.. on an amd system is has an inverse effect on the speed and makes things worse than running them in sync... so when people say async they are talking about memory and cpu running at different bus speeds... so you can run your memory at 133 and your cpu at 200... but it won't do any good...

ok.. back on track

most people have locked multiplier cpus... this is very common, all intel cpus after about the 400 mhz pII or somethign like that have been locked... this was to keep peopel from rebading cpus and selling them as being faster than they are...

so.. if your multiplier is locked, there is only one way to overclock.. and that is to raise the FSB... because 200 X 12 is faster than 166 X 12 for example...

now the mobiles are cool because their multipliers are unlocked... so you can just change it... so your fsb can't go past 133 becasue of your memory... well you can just raise the multiplier... so 133 x 16 is just as fast as 166 x 13 or 200 x 10.5 (they aren't exactly the same.. but close enough)

get it?

also mobiles run at lower heat, and all that good stuff..

also.. on voltages... the farther out of spec you run your processor, the more you have to raise the voltage to it... this is a helpful read here... http://www.modthebox.com/overclock103.shtml

so... just get a mobile 35 watt... and an nf7... then you can overlock with your current memory... but getting faster memory will allow you to use more memory bandwidth which is a good thing,.....
 
it depends what unlocked means aswell, unlocked tbreds were unlocked from 5.0x to 13.5x but not anything above that, i assumed mobiles were the same
 
scottatwittenberg said:
so... just get a mobile 35 watt... and an nf7... then you can overlock with your current memory... but getting faster memory will allow you to use more memory bandwidth which is a good thing,.....
Click to expand...

Hey, just for the record, I DO know what DDR is! lol

But other than that, thanks for taking the time to spell out some details :)

It's bee a couple years since I read the memory faq and I should do so again...but can't seem to recall its location?

Question: If I can manage $125 to spend on memory, is there any option that would improve my situation, or do I have to wait till can afford to spend at least ($x ?) on (y ?) in order to realize noticable gains in both OC'ing and performance?

Thanks!

Q
 
i think you can get cas2 OCZ for $225... but i won't buy ocz.... you can do a search and see why peopel dont' like ocz...

my memory was $146, now it is $153 or something.. i will do a quick search of 512mb sticks between $100 and $130 and see what i find... (gotta fudge a little in case there is some $127 stuff or something)

http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=property&DEPA=0 cas 2.5
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-146-889&depa=0 cas 2
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-145-416&depa=0 cas 2
http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-146-212&depa=0 cas 2.5

out of those, i would get the corsair xms..

or get this and save some $$ http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=20-146-219&depa=0
 
Alright, here's my two cents. Not sure how much of this was actually covered in the upper posts cuz I just skimmed this, but here it is. If your determined to go AMD, yeah, the NF7-s is a great choice. I'm using a a7n8x on a machine i built, and that works great too, and is cheaper, but it has some strange quirks that the NF7 doesn't have. The most important part IMO of an AMD build is the memory. Intel people could care less about timings, cuz we (My main machine is intel) can just push bus speeds to our hearts content. But yeah, some nice sticks of the XLs from Kingston would go great, though that will put a significant dent in your budget. If no-go on XLs, then go with just 3200LLs, or maybe even a few sticks of used BH-5, if you can get your hands on some on ebay. But both of those are garenteed to blow that $125 you budgeted for memory... but if you don't mind some slightly lax timings, memory from www.Komusa.com is very cheap and very good. Not corsair or kingston good, but darn close. Hope this gives some help!
 
133 FSB & PC2100 memory shouldn't pose a huge problem with an UNlocked AMD barton cpu (read: Moble 2400+), just a couple percent less performance. Even on my old kt400 board & a tbred-b, I can select the odd multipliers above 13x (granted not every one is there up to 22x). I just set it to 100x16 just for confirm it. I'm guessing if you get the sp-97 you can do around 133x19. Currently all you do to OC an AMD is change the FSB & multiplier, which is just changing numbers in the BIOS. No physical mods are needed. I'm not sure about how the NF7-S (yet) treats memory, but my board lets you run it by SPD (the 'stock' settings for your mem sticks) or the same as the FSB. Either wait a LONG time to buy memory, or get it now - prices aren't dropping at all. FYI, starting with the tbred-b revision, the cpu vcore could be set MUCH lower than stock and still be stable at stock clock. The barton helped lower the vcore req's (in a way), and being a moble gets their vcore dropped a bit more.



Moble barton 2400+, $87: unlocked multiplier - locked cores max at ~300-500mhz LESS than what they can do with if you change the multiplier, since only some of the $150 nforce moboards can go over 220mhz with any consistancy.

The best bang for the buck as far as GPU's are concerned is the ATI Radeon 9800 non-pro. The only real difference is teh pro not only is faster stock, but can OC better due to better memory and what amounts to an 9800 XT core (my pro has the XT core, virtually all new pros do)

Refurbished 9800 pro, $152: hands-down best FPS-per-dollar spent, with a good cpu & memory can get good framerates in any current game@med-high detail.

9800 pro, $206: even though its bulk, all you miss is the flashy box. Higher price basicly reflects warranty, piece-of-mind, and accessories.

9800 np, ~$160?: best FPS-per-dollar spent for a full new package, never more than 10% below a pro's scores...good luck finding one though.

Abit NF7-S, $82: NF7-S is the best bang for the buck, great features, great price, great OC'ing. Not the absolute king of dual-channel socket-A's, but everything better hardly has an edge. BTW I'll have to disagree with those pushing Asus boards instead of abit & others. Personally I'd never buy another Asus product again. They work as advertised & priased, but not for very long & have 'random features' like MS Windows does - not known to work with OCZ memory very well.

Memory - essential for an AMD to tick. Low latency is a bigger deal than to P4's. The trick is to get memory thats: cheap, can do DDR400+, low latency, AND is 1+ gig in size. Skimp on one to endulge in another aspect gets you nowhere.

OCZ & Mushkin medium latency, ~$224: mainly cas2.5, okay timings & mhz, good price

OCZ & Mushkin low latency, ~$255: great speed, okay price

Corsair: I look at them like the EE or FX editions of memory - gig for gig the best, but price-per-gig they're the worst. Avoid since you have a budget, and since its not an AMD64 or HT P4 [that'd all use their high-end sticks].


Finally, if you have cash left over, treat yourself to a new monitor and/or case if you haven't already. I sorta did what I suggested here - already had a 1700+ (not much sense in getting a barton atm) & 9800pro, got mushkin 2-3-2-6 DDR400 sticks (1gb), NF7-S & a Lian-Li PC-60 case - just need the case to get here :( My reasons for 'budget' upgrading were because I'm getting body work done to my Civic* soon [CX "OC'd" to Integra B18], just got some b-day cash, get to 'sell' my old pc items to make a PC for my sis & have to pay for college again in fall.

PS all prices relate to newegg.

*Priceless is the look on people's faces when they get smoked by a 'lowly' '94 Civic CX hatchback in Wisconsin...
 
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