beginners Home Audio setup?

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polonyc2

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don't know if this is the right section but I'm new to the Home Audio game as I've always been mainly concerned with video quality while leaving the audio to my TV speakers...it always sounded fine to me but I now want to listen to Audio the way it was meant to be heard...I currently have a 50" Samsung DLP (I'm also most likely going to upgrade soon to the Panasonic 58" VT25 series) along with the Panasonic DMP-BD60 Blu-ray player...currently have the TV connected to the Blu-ray player and my Tivo box via HDMI

I'm in the market for a quality home Audio system but because I live in an apartment in Manhattan I can't go all out and purchase a killer 5.1 or 7.1 system (too loud for my space)...but at the same time I want to have better sound then what is coming from my TV speakers...I know HTIB and soundbars aren't the best options but is that my only option at this point?...I would even be willing to buy a high quality 2.0 system as a starting point and upgrade in the future

but I'm a total Audio newb and have no idea what I need to look for...I have done a lot of reading online but am still uncertain on things...I believe uncompressed PCM and/or Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD is what I need but I have no idea which parts to purchase that will give me the best sound quality and connection options now and in the future...does the receiver have to decode or can my Blu-ray player do it?...how many HDMI inputs are needed etc

can anyone recommend a beginners Home Audio setup...I really have no budget, either a separate speaker/receiver combo or even a HTIB or soundbar (although cheaper is always better) but I do want to get a noticable upgrade in audio quality...I watch a lot of Blu-ray's and also HD channels using my Tivo box...I purchased a ZVOX 325 system a few months back and honestly was not that impressed and returned it

any help would be appreciated...Thanks
 
Home Theaters are one of those things that can be expensive to get into but even more expensive if you don't get into them the right way and want to upgrade later.

Personally, I wouldn't buy a home theater in a box. I would put more money into speakers up front, as and get a mid range receiver. However, many people are very happy with their HTIB, and if it gets the job done, then it was the right thing.

A 5.1 or 7.1 system doesn't have to be loud. I think people get this impression because, when people show off their home theater, they find that one movie clip that has the best bass, biggest explosion, and then they crank it up. More speakers doesn't mean it's going to be louder. And if bass is a problem, you can either turn the sub down or not use one. I would say that, at minimum, I would recommend a 5.1 system with the subwoofer turned way down.

If you're looking to future-proof your audio system, look for something that has HDMI 1.4. Not because you're want 3D (don't know if you do...). You want it because it's the latest and greatest and you don't want to have to upgrade later when some device you want to attach needs HDMI 1.4.

Number of HDMI Inputs: I'd say that you should count up all the HDMI devices you are going to use and add one to it. It gives you enough for all your devices and room to grow. But that really is up to you.

The receiver will need to decode the HD codecs, unless you're using a PS3. If you're using a PS3 to play Blu, then it will output the decoded audio to the receiver. If you're using a standard Blu-Ray player, then you will want to make sure it can decode DTS-HD Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD. Since blu-ray players pass the encoded audio to the reciever, the receiver needs to understand it or it won't play. As far as I know, all blu-ray players work like this (some of the higher end ones may decode and output PCM, but I've never used them).

Newegg frequently runs deals on receivers and they throw in free speakers. I don't know what the quality of the equipment is, but they're decent names like Onkyo and Harmon Kardon. I'd watch for one of those deals as they always seemed to be a good starter set -- probably better than the typical home theater in a box.
 
thanks for the info...I always assumed that if the Blu-ray player supports decoding of DTS-Master Audio etc that it would handle the decoding by itself...meaning I thought all you needed was one to handle the decoding, either the Blu-ray player or the receiver

good point about 5.1/7.1 systems not needing to be loud...plus I can always get one without a subwoofer or turn it off if it gets too loud...looking around online I see that the Denon AVR-591 receiver is getting great reviews...that looks like it might fit my needs...choosing a speaker is difficult as there is not 1 clear cut favorite
 
.I always assumed that if the Blu-ray player supports decoding of DTS-Master Audio etc that it would handle the decoding by itself...meaning I thought all you needed was one to handle the decoding, either the Blu-ray player or the receiver
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Typically, a blu-ray player will send the encoded stream to the receiver. This is called bitstreaming. It makes that light on your receiver turn on that tells you what type of audio it is decoding.

The only blu-ray player that I've seen that actually decodes the audio stream is the PS3. Since it doesn't bitstream the audio, the audio format indicator never lights up and some people actually think it's not playing the audio properly, which isn't the case.

You really only need one to handle the decoding as long as your receiver can accept the decoded audio (and I don't know of any that can't, but I haven't really worked with a wide variety of receivers). I would just let the receiver do the work. Anything you buy thats relatively current should be able to handle it.

One other thing to look for -- make sure you're not getting a receiver that does HDMI passthrough for the audio. Some older receivers didn't separate the audio from the stream and just passed it along. This meant it was up to the TV to either decode and play, or pass it back to the receiver do deocode and play. You really don't want this. It adds more cables and, in some cases, will prevent you from getting the proper channels to play correctly (some TVs send the stream back out 2 channel instead of 5.1/7.1).
 
thanks for the knowledge...would I be able to receive DTS Master Audio and Dolby TrueHD if I only have a receiver, 2 front speakers and a center channel?...or are those formats reserved only for 5.1 and higher systems?
 
I'm not sure how that would work. To get a center and two fronts, you'll probably have to have a 5.1 system anyway. You probably just won't hear the rears if you don't connect them.

If your concern is hanging the rear speakers, I would suggest putting the rears in the front with the fronts. You're not going to hear things perfectly, but you at least won't be loosing any audio.

If you're going to just do two fronts and a center -- a high quality sound bar might do the job better for you, since it's basically a soundbar at that point.
 
this is what I am thinking of going with...

Denon AVR-591 receiver
http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/5302.asp

Aperion Intimus 5T Tower Speaker (front channels)
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-5T-Tower-Speaker,107,0.aspx

Aperion Intimus 5T Tower Speaker (center channel)
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-5C-Center-Channel-Speaker,109,29,253.aspx

the rear and subwoofer would not be viable in my current apartment (not to mention the added cost)...but I hear a quality 3.1 system will still beat any soundbar in terms of overall sound quality
 
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My BD player has analog out and it decodes internally. That allows me to skip the receiver and just go with homemade equipment. I have a built a powered pre-amp and 5xlm3886 in an old computer case. I still have an old 10" no name sub I got at goodwill. All I have left to do is build a better sub.

You might look into the chip amp designs. You can dead bug the whole thing inside the speaker enclosures if you want a sleeker design.

I do need to either spend some money on a decent set of speakers, or build a set. I am absolute shit at wood work though.:( The speakers I have are from goodwill also.;)

Obviously, it's not the easiest way to go. But, it is 100% upgradeable and interchangeable.

I don't know if you have any experience with diy electronics. If you even have minor experience you will have no trouble. It's all through the hole stuff. Nothing small.

Let me see if I can find some of the websites I used.
I used 5 mono kits, but you could easily use 2 stereo and one mono kit.
http://www.chipamp.com/lm3886.shtml
The stereo kits are about $15 and the mono are $10
The most expensive part and the hardest to find, will be the toroid transformer/s.

Here is a place where you can ask questions. Since the amps are in a kit, you don't really have to know how it all works 100%. These guys design and build them and the designer of the kit is one of them.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/chip-amps/

You should still check out goodwill. You might find a decent set of speakers. I have seen some pretty decent stuff there on occasion.
 
now I'm debating another set of speakers...the Polk Monitor70 for my front speakers and the Polk Cs2 for the center channel

the Polk's seem good and the price is great but are the Aperion's noticably better and worth spening the extra $600+?

BallerX said:
I don't know if you have any experience with diy electronics. If you even have minor experience you will have no trouble
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wish I did but I don't have much experience with that so I don't think I could go that way...searching Goodwill is a good idea
 
If you have any spare time, I highly recommend going to an A/V shop nearby (you're in manhattan, you should have something there). Sound is very subjective, going to a shop would allow you to hear the speakers and see if you really like them and you can also get a better idea of how much you'd like to spend. Remember to keep a general budget in your mind before walking into the store.

I can't agree with Demon10000 about the rear speakers. If you don't want rear speakers in the proper location (for whatever reason; cost, space, WAF), you should just leave it out instead of putting them in the front because it probably won't sound that good. If you're focused on getting towers they should have enough low end frequency response for you to get by without getting a subwoofer immediately or at all in some cases.

The Aperion speakers will probably be better that the Polks. I say probably because a lot depends on the placement of the speakers, source quality, and your preferences.

Also, I suggest getting something more powerful than the Denon you selected. Take a look at Marantz's receivers.
 
450 said:
If you have any spare time, I highly recommend going to an A/V shop nearby (you're in manhattan, you should have something there). Sound is very subjective, going to a shop would allow you to hear the speakers and see if you really like them and you can also get a better idea of how much you'd like to spend. Remember to keep a general budget in your mind before walking into the store.

Also, I suggest getting something more powerful than the Denon you selected. Take a look at Marantz's receivers.
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the Aperion's are not available anywhere except directly through the manufacturer so I would not be able to hear them beforehand (but they do offer a 30 day free trial)...as far as a more powerful receiver the main issue is that I currently live in an apartment so I'm not sure that getting more power would be wise...the Marantz reveivers do look good

from my research it seems that most receivers are the same and it's the speakers that truly make the difference...that's why I'm having such trouble deciding between them
 
I recommend an audio shop not just so you could listen to that specific speaker, but many types all at once.

A more powerful receiver isn't just about getting it louder. You'll get a better sound as well, even at the same volume. Yes, speakers make the most difference, however a good receiver helps as well. Look into some bass shakers for your seating, might help make up for the lack of a subwoofer.
 
Go down to J&R and maybe B&H and take a listen to a few setups. Try Canal St as well, as they have a few audio shops there.

To be honest, you don't really need much, but I WOULD go 5.1. You don't need to go big or expensive though. I have a 15x15 outcropping in my living room that I use for my two sofas, my TV, and my home theater, which should be relatively close to a NYC apartment. I have a set of old JBL NSPII and a Dayton 10" sub hooked up to a Yamaha v465 receiver. This gets me plenty loud, without disturbing any neighbors.

I used a 3.1 for a while, and while it's decent (and better than just the TV), 5.1 is a lot better. You can also make due with what space you have, by getting creative with your space.

I used two of the following lamps to house my surround speakers, as I have them bordering my main sofa. Puts them at the perfect ear level and I needed the lighting anyways.

http://www.target.com/Shelf-Floor-Lamp-Paper-Shade/dp/B000WUXQCW/ref=sc_ri_1?ie=UTF8&node=273148011
 
entropism said:
To be honest, you don't really need much, but I WOULD go 5.1. You don't need to go big or expensive though. I have a 15x15 outcropping in my living room that I use for my two sofas, my TV, and my home theater, which should be relatively close to a NYC apartment. I have a set of old JBL NSPII and a Dayton 10" sub hooked up to a Yamaha v465 receiver. This gets me plenty loud, without disturbing any neighbors.
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I've listened to some setups at Best Buy etc and they all seemed to sound reasonably good...people have told me not to trust sound setups in stores or display rooms because they can sound much different once you have them hooked up in your actual house or apartment as the acoustics of the room etc have an influence on the sound quality

I'm still debating whether to even risk getting a mid range to high end audio setup...will running speakers like this at low volumes be worth the expense?
 
will I be OK with a receiver with a Power Output/Watts per Channel of 75?...people are telling me that I should get one with at least a Watts per channel of 100...overkill or good advice?
 
It depends on which speakers you are getting.

Things to remember...
-look at what resistance the wattage is measured at (ex: 4,6,8 ohms)
-make sure its measured from 20hz to 20khz and not just at 1khz
-speaker efficiency plays a big part too, 86db isn't too sensitive but a klipsch speaker at 95db is fairly easy to drive
 
450 said:
It depends on which speakers you are getting.

Things to remember...
-look at what resistance the wattage is measured at (ex: 4,6,8 ohms)
-make sure its measured from 20hz to 20khz and not just at 1khz
-speaker efficiency plays a big part too, 86db isn't too sensitive but a klipsch speaker at 95db is fairly easy to drive
Click to expand...

what's the ideal Ohms and Sensitivity I should be looking for?...the Aperion speakers have 6 Ohms and 87 dB...the frequency response is listed as: (+/- 3dB) 55-20,000 Hz -- (+/- 6dB) 45-22,000 Hz
http://www.aperionaudio.com/product/Intimus-5T-Tower-Speaker,107,0.aspx

the Polk 70's are at 8 ohms and 90 db with a frequency response of 30Hz - 25kHz
http://www.polkaudio.com/homeaudio/specs/recent/monitor70/

neither of them seem to be measured at 20hz to 20khz
 
Sorry I meant to say that you should make sure the receiver is measured from 20hz to 20khz. The reason a speaker won't say 20hz to 20khz is because the speaker probably doesn't go that low or high.

There isn't an ideal resistance or sensitivity. Just that less sensitive speakers will need a bit more power, thats all.
 
450 said:
Sorry I meant to say that you should make sure the receiver is measured from 20hz to 20khz. The reason a speaker won't say 20hz to 20khz is because the speaker probably doesn't go that low or high.

There isn't an ideal resistance or sensitivity. Just that less sensitive speakers will need a bit more power, thats all.
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so the lower the ohms and db the more power I would need in the receiver?...so is getting a lower ohms/db speaker and a higher powered receiver better then getting a higher ohms/db with a lower powered receiver?...I guess what I'm asking is, which contributes more to the overall sound quality?...being that the speakers are more important then the receiver I would assume that having the lower ohms/db would be best?
 
Start with the reciever, its the brain unit of everything. There is an amazing difference in how cheaper recievers sound compared to slightly higher end. If you get a good reciever, it will make any pair of speakers come alive.
 
jake21 said:
Start with the reciever, its the brain unit of everything. There is an amazing difference in how cheaper recievers sound compared to slightly higher end. If you get a good reciever, it will make any pair of speakers come alive.
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure I'm going to get the Denon AVR-591...seems to get very favorable reviews...I was also thinking about the Onkyo TX-SR608 but issues with possible overheating and a lesser quality video processor pushed me towards the Denon
 
I've got the Onkyo 806. Until recently, I really enjoyed it. Then the unit made a big pop and stopped working. I took it to the local certified Onkyo repair shop and they "fixed it". After I got it back from them, I called Onkyo to let them know it still didn't work (they had it for about 5 months). They had me send it to them, and I did. About a month later I got it back from them and ... it's working. HDCP won't passthrough properly and it does weird things like not displaying a picture sometimes. They won't help me now because it's out of warranty -- even though it was in warranty when the problems occurred. They had it so long that it expired!

This is just my experience, but I cannot recommend Onkyo anymore. I could care less that the product died on me and I had to send it in -- I understand any item can have problems. But they didn't make it right.
 
the repair center took 5 months to fix it?...Onkyo does has more features and seems to be excellent overall but I just feel more comfortable going with Denon
 
Demon10000 said:
I've got the Onkyo 806. Until recently, I really enjoyed it. Then the unit made a big pop and stopped working. I took it to the local certified Onkyo repair shop and they "fixed it". After I got it back from them, I called Onkyo to let them know it still didn't work (they had it for about 5 months). They had me send it to them, and I did. About a month later I got it back from them and ... it's working. HDCP won't passthrough properly and it does weird things like not displaying a picture sometimes. They won't help me now because it's out of warranty -- even though it was in warranty when the problems occurred. They had it so long that it expired!

This is just my experience, but I cannot recommend Onkyo anymore. I could care less that the product died on me and I had to send it in -- I understand any item can have problems. But they didn't make it right.
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was it brand new in box retail, and where did you buy it from?
 
I picked it up from Accessories4less.com. They're a certified Onkyo reseller. It was a refurb, but it was a certified refurb, and the proof is that I didn't pay a dime for the repairs -- or lack of repairs. And yes -- they had it for 5 months, which was about as long as I had owned it!
 
Another thing to consider is building the system in pieces. For example you could get a receiver and a higher end pair of speakers that you like now. Wait a little bit and then throw a center channel in. Wait and throw some rears in. Etc. This could allow you to get a nicer system down the road without blowing all your budget now. A nice pair of speakers in most cases sounds better than a cheap surround sound.
 
I have a studio in the city and picked up an Onkyo 7.1 HTIB. It was just under 500 bucks, had all the inputs I was looking for (and was a fairly quality receiver, so I could always replace the speakers if I really wanted to). Asides from my computer, it pretty much runs any audio I'm playing at the time (though I have a TOSlink from the PC to the receiver for parties).

The reason I recommend a solid HTIB is because everything is in the box (except extra cable) and provide a pretty solid bang for your buck if you aren't in the market to buy a system piece by piece.

The big thing is to make sure that the receiver that comes with the set is solid and somewhat future-proof.
 
NeoMatriX724 said:
Which receiver did you get out of curiosity?
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SR-308? Something like that, maybe the model before.

It's just... pretty bad. The surround processing isn't very good, it makes popping noises a lot when I fast forward/rewind in Media Player Classic, and the amplifier is crappy. The radio reception is bad, and the relay in it is stupidly loud. It drops audio pretty often with an optical feed from my cable box.

Prior to this I had a B&K processor with active speakers. That thing was a lot better. The night mode is OK, but I've heard Denon does it a lot better with the Audyssey stuff.
 
NeoMatriX724 said:
I have a studio in the city and picked up an Onkyo 7.1 HTIB. It was just under 500 bucks, had all the inputs I was looking for (and was a fairly quality receiver, so I could always replace the speakers if I really wanted to). Asides from my computer, it pretty much runs any audio I'm playing at the time (though I have a TOSlink from the PC to the receiver for parties).

The reason I recommend a solid HTIB is because everything is in the box (except extra cable) and provide a pretty solid bang for your buck if you aren't in the market to buy a system piece by piece.

The big thing is to make sure that the receiver that comes with the set is solid and somewhat future-proof.
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Just want to say that I did this and am/was very happy with it, Got the Onkyo HT-S5200 setup and it sounded great, absolutely love it for games too. Just got (arrived today) my new receiver though as I was hitting some limits on the Onkyo but it was still a great system and Im keeping the speakers with my new receiver (for now at least). Owned it for almost 2 years, not a single issue.
 
polonyc2 said:
so the lower the ohms and db the more power I would need in the receiver?...so is getting a lower ohms/db speaker and a higher powered receiver better then getting a higher ohms/db with a lower powered receiver?...I guess what I'm asking is, which contributes more to the overall sound quality?...being that the speakers are more important then the receiver I would assume that having the lower ohms/db would be best?
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Generally people say that the speakers are much more important than the amp.

With speakers the ohms doesn't matter as much, at least as long as your amp can handle the load.

Db/watt higher is always better all else equal. A lot of guys into ht are going to pro speakers that have much higher sensitivity than consumer stuff for various reasons. One being the higher the sensitivity the less likely you are to clip the amp. Another being you are less likely to see significant compression, and especially for HT which tends to have a much wider dynamic range than typical music today, compression is a real possibility.
 
OK, stop worrying about the power rating wattage blah blah blah, buy the Denon receiver you were looking at and call it a day.

You don't need 100watts per channel, and most low-end receiver with 100watt/ch rating are only in stereo mode, the power cuts in half when in surround mode.

Get the Denon AVR-591. Stick to 8ohm speakers, with decent sensitivity ( around 88-90db or higher ) and you'll be fine.

You should really list a max amount / budget you would want to spend on the speakers so people can throw some recommendations for your price range.
 
good info everyone...thanks...

price range is around $1500 but willing to go higher for good quality...looking at the Aperion 5T speakers right now along with the Polk Monitor70...Polk's are relatively 'cheap' and get excellent reviews but I'm worried that it will sound 'cheap'...sound quality at all ranges (high, low) is most important to me as I might have to listen to them mostly at low and medium settings in my current apartment
 
aZn_plyR said:
OK, stop worrying about the power rating wattage blah blah blah, buy the Denon receiver you were looking at and call it a day.

You don't need 100watts per channel, and most low-end receiver with 100watt/ch rating are only in stereo mode, the power cuts in half when in surround mode.

Get the Denon AVR-591. Stick to 8ohm speakers, with decent sensitivity ( around 88-90db or higher ) and you'll be fine.

You should really list a max amount / budget you would want to spend on the speakers so people can throw some recommendations for your price range.
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aZn_plyR: Will the Denon mentioned earlier work well with the Aperion 5T? The reason I suggested a more powerful receiver was because it was 86 or 87db and 6 ohms.
 
450 said:
aZn_plyR: Will the Denon mentioned earlier work well with the Aperion 5T? The reason I suggested a more powerful receiver was because it was 86 or 87db and 6 ohms.
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looking at the Denon specs is a bit misleading which added to my initial confusion as well...Denon officially lists their Watts Per Channel as 75 at 8 ohms but if you dig deeper into their manual it also lists the Watts Per Channel as 120 at 6 ohms...so I'm assuming the Aperion speakers that are rated at 6 ohms and 87 dB should be fine with the Denon (although the low dB is a bit concerning as I would rather have the speakers rated at 88 dB or higher)
 
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