Adding an Amp in

[LiQuId StEeL]

I know, I know. Go to Head-fi. I can't, though. Every time I go there, I get so damn distracted, and want to spend way more money than I care to.

What I am running currently is digital out from my IP35pro to a Harmon Kardon AVR 146, and on to Polk RTi4's (no sub, small house with other people living in close vicinity). I've seen complaints that the headphone out on this particular reciever is abysmal if you are trying to pump out decent sound through some decent headphones.

Currently this is a non-issue because I only have shitty five year old $10 Sony headphones that I got with a CD player god knows when. I want to upgrade. I have wanted to do so for a long time. Now, though, my decision is complicated by the need for a relatively seamless intrgration into what I have now.

As far as headphone selection goes, I'm not too set, but I have been drooling over the Denon D2000's a lot (probably used). I've also been looking at used HD595's (more budget friendly), or HD600's. I haven't done much reading here, but I have been trying to stop myself from doing so (less reading, less desire... right!?).

Anywho, looking at this (because I don't feel like unwiring everything to get a good look ), tells me my options for output are RCA or Coaxial. Obviously, my head tells me to try and utilize the digital connection. My thought was to get a separate headphone amp that could take this signal, and just, well... play it. I was looking around, and the Zero DAC seems to fit what I was thinking.

Would something like this work, though? If I went with the Zero, I really would just need the reciever to pass the signal through to the new DAC. Less processing before it hits the cans the better, correct?

Does anyone know if this would be the best route for me (keeping in mind a relatively limited budget), while still keeping a clean setup that sounds good? Unfortunately I have no way to even check how the outputs function, so I don't even know if that would work. Maybe there is some excellent way to get it running that I don't even know of

Opinions?

 

[Thor]

Opinions?

so are you saying that you want to go to a seconed amp, useing the HK as a pass thought? i do see that it has digi cox out, and this might be fine as long as your only listening to tunes , i dont know how this might affect something like gameplay, where sound timeing is criticle. (i doubt it would be much if any.. but still).. or where you thinking about doing a cable swap everytime you go to use it? realisticly, it is just a coax cable, and a splitter might be able to get the job done here, just be sure to keep the other unit off while not in use. (who knows what havoc, if any, this might cause..(probably just buss noise i doubt any real damage)) and i think this is all the digi out is any way..

also, read a review on it, and from what i can tell, you will probably want to swap the stoc opamps on it.. not hard to do and it looks like it can be greatly improved. im am now currently thinking about grabbing one of these as well.. looks nice for the prices, and it has potitential. its between this and a t amp for me (i want a 5 channel to play with.. but that will come later)

 

[LiQuId StEeL]

I forgot to add that, the only sound that goes through my computer is music, and the occasional movie. When I play games, the game noise is muted.

I would like to have a way to use some decent headphones without interrupting my current speaker setup. I saw on head-fi that the HK recievers have abysmal headphone out, so I figured the best way to get good output would be to bypass the crap part entirely, and put the headphone hardware on a separate circuit. Ideally I would just press a button on the reciever to change it from output to speakers, to passthrough to the DAC. I don't know how or if that is possible, though.

Unfortunately I can't just get a coax splitter/switch, as my mobo doesn't have anything other than toslink or analog out. I'm fine using onboard if it is digital, but the analog connection sounded like ass when I tried it.

 

[Thor]

I forgot to add that, the only sound that goes through my computer is music, and the occasional movie. When I play games, the game noise is muted.

I would like to have a way to use some decent headphones without interrupting my current speaker setup. I saw on head-fi that the HK recievers have abysmal headphone out, so I figured the best way to get good output would be to bypass the crap part entirely, and put the headphone hardware on a separate circuit. Ideally I would just press a button on the reciever to change it from output to speakers, to passthrough to the DAC. I don't know how or if that is possible, though.

Unfortunately I can't just get a coax splitter/switch, as my mobo doesn't have anything other than toslink or analog out. I'm fine using onboard if it is digital, but the analog connection sounded like ass when I tried it.

have onboard analog almost always sucks donkey balls.. and movies would be the other place where timeing is criticle.. 10-20 ms delay is friggen annoying. but like i said, i dont know if the pass thought will impart any dealy on it any way.. only way to know would be to try it.. other wise, it looks like a good solution

 

[LiQuId StEeL]

Hi Brian,
I can empathize with your situation. It's funny how no one else
seems to appreciate great audio like you and I do! All kidding aside,
your question is a great one. The problem is this: The inputs and
outputs on the AVR will not convert formats. Consequently, the optical
inputs only route to the optical output, coaxial inputs only route to
the coaxial output, and the analog inputs only route to the analog
outputs. More importantly, digital signals that come into the AVR have
their Dolby or DTS encodings stripped from them before they are sent to
the output. This is for copy protection.

I'm sorry to say your best bet would be to use a dedicated headphone
amplifier and connect it to the headphone output of the AVR. This will
mute the speaker outputs and allow a downmixed 2 channel version of
Dolby and DTS encoded digital streams to be output to your headphones.
I hope this is helpful.

Best Regards,

Sean Hanney
Harman Technical Support

Well, then. That really is unfortunate, but I think I have a workaround. Here Switch my toslink signal to coaxial, which will let the reciever pass it through to the DAC/Amp.

I'm not set on that particular one, as the lackluster reviews scare me, so I'll be on the lookout for a better option. Will something like that pass everything through clear, or is it going to end up being a degredation to sound quality?

edit: another thought I've had is a DAC+Amp combo that would be able to take in toslink, and pass through to the reciever as well (comp-->Dac/amp--passthrough-->reciever). I don't know, though. Starting to get complicated (not to mention sounding more expensive, lol). Does something like this even exist?

double edit: or the less seamless option presented by HK (which I was hoping to avoid), which would unfortunately still leave a lackluster process before the amp... sorta defeats the purpose, imo.

damn, triple edit: I suppose I could get something along the lines of the Zero DAC, and run it in between the computer and the reciever, and just use the analog out to get to the reciever. I don't know how this would affect everything, though. Hmm...

I need opinions, lol.

 

[Thor]

am i seeing correctly that your mother board has only an optical out and not a co-ax? if so thats too bad becuase you could have ran the optical to your HK, and the co-ax to the zero.. just use the software audio out switcher when you felt the need.

and yeah, i had thought about running the audio to the zero via the HK headphone jack.. thats more processing. not less.. not to mention what ever it dose to the sound, plus haveing yet one more cable and anouther seires of connections befor you get to hear it the sound..

aaaannnnny way back to the optical out thing, the zero only has a co-ax in.. and as such you wont be able to hook it directly to the mobo regardless, and the guy said the HK wont convert signals for you.. so that puts the zero compleatly out of the running unless you want to use the mobos headphone jacks and software sawp the outputs.. ICK i say.. just as bad as useing the HKs headphone out.

the only other solution i can think of would be to get a Creative Sound Blaster X-Fi Platinum Fatal1ty Champion Series ... as much as i hate the branding on it.. i will admit my SB sounds great, and has some nice options.. the front panle on this modle has both optical and coax out, run the optical to the HK, and the coax to the zero.. _however_ you might find that the SB has more than enought oomph to drive your cans, depending on what you get. and in my experience is has nearly 0 buss noise soo, good connection to the HK, and a great card to drive phones. with the options of useing it to switch to an external amp...

the down side.. its 175+$ (plus the zero if you still want..)

i know there are better analog cards out there (well maybe not better, but on par for cheaper) the only reason i was looking at this model was becuase it had both types of outputs.

 

[LiQuId StEeL]

Isn't that an optical in with a plug in it?

Argh, this reciever is becoming such a pain to work around.

 

[Thor]

your pic isnt working, but i assume you where trying to show the back of the zero, and in which case, yes it is an optical in, i must have missed it some how.

any way, the rep said that the HK will strip off dts and dolby encodeing, which, over phones wont be needed any way (it can be used, and there is a sound difference, but i like good ol sterio over cans which is what it would be, but again.. that is more processing, im curious about the delay this might impart) the only thing i could suggest would be to try the zero stand alown and routed thought the amp, and see what is more tollerable. ultamately your the one that is going to have to live with the setup. get the zero form a good dealer with a good return policy, and return it if it dose not work as you hope.

/edit you fixed your pic as i was posting, it works now

 

[shadowlord]

since it looks like you want to spend some money for a great listening experience (buying the headphones and the dac/headamp) i would recommend a soundcard with 2 digital outputs. a x-fi xtreme music with the optional digital out dongle would do this.
i own a esi maya 44 which has coaxial and optical digital out on the board and cost me less than 100 bucks.
with this route you wouldn't need to run both devices whereas one would only run for signal passtrough.

or you could get a better soundcard with decent analog output and connect the reciever digital and connect a simple headphone amp (without a dac) to the soundcards analog out.

edit: maybe you could tell us how much you want to spend for the whole setup so we can figure something out.

 

[LiQuId StEeL]

I'm not going to buy a new soundcard if I can at all help it. Offloading the processing to a reciever or DAC means I would just be paying $100+ for a second output.

I'd like to keep the whole thing under $400-450 (shipped), and ~$215 of that would likely be going to D2000's (new price). The attraction of the Zero was predominately its price. I know I could get better sound elsewhere, but a solid performer for under $200 was hard to not contemplate.

Ideally there would be a DAC/Amp combo (such as the zero), that could take in optical, or either pass it through to the reciever unchanged, or process and amplify it for the headphones.

Because this seems like it would require a custom job (and thereby break my budget), I'm wondering now if it would be a reasonable path to get the Zero, run the optical from the computer to it, and run the preamp outs from the Zero to the reciever. It has an analog passing, which I was trying to avoid, but it would give the best headphone experience because it bypasses the HK setup entirely.

edit: Simply put, I have a Harmon Kardon AVR146, Polk RTi4's, and a computer with toslink out. I want to add in a headphone amp somewhere, somehow, that bypasses the abysmal HK headphone equipment.

 

[shadowlord]

ok i see.
so why not connect the reciever to the onboard digital out, and for headphone listening use a usb dac with headphone amp like this one : http://cgi.ebay.com/Portable-USB-DA...oryZ3281QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
?

your way would work too: pc > digital > zero dac > analog > reciever. but then your reciever would be limited by the dac quality of the zero, instead using it's own digital analog converter.

but there is one way left. you can buy a stand alone headphone amp (like the little dot) and connect it to the tape out from your reciver. this way the reciver will do the d/a conversion and output the analog signal to the headphone amp. a lot of recivers feature switchable speakers so simply turn them off if possible.

 

[LiQuId StEeL]

Why I didn't think of this is beyond me, but I really could just get a toslink splitter, put it before the reciever, and run cables from the splitter to the reciever and amp separately.

Now I just need to find splitter that isn't complete crap. (and get more funding, ugh)

 

[shadowlord]

wow i didn't know passive optical splitters do exist!
maybe they use a prism, so you will lose some light intensity, but i googled a bit and their quality seems ok.

anyway if you still go with the zero you won't be disappointed i own the unit myself and for the price it offers a great value.

 

[Thor]

Why I didn't think of this is beyond me, but I really could just get a toslink splitter, put it before the reciever, and run cables from the splitter to the reciever and amp separately.

Now I just need to find splitter that isn't complete crap. (and get more funding, ugh)

i kinda did , but this was only talking about splitting the co-ax, befor i realized the zero even had a optical... meh ohh well (this was also befor i realised that you mobo didnt have a co-ax out, so it wouldnt have worked any way )

realisticly, it is just a coax cable, and a splitter might be able to get the job done here, just be sure to keep the other unit off while not in use. (who knows what havoc, if any, this might cause..(probably just buss noise i doubt any real damage)) and i think this is all the digi out is any way..

but there is one way left. you can buy a stand alone headphone amp (like the little dot) and connect it to the tape out from your reciver. this way the reciver will do the d/a conversion and output the analog signal to the headphone amp. a lot of recivers feature switchable speakers so simply turn them off if possible

nearist i can tell, according to the HK rep, that model will not convert the signal to any other format, the tape pass thought is for tape dubbing only ect. ect.
i could be wrong here, but i would figure that he would have brought this up if it was possible.