Lasers Could Boost Engine Efficiency By 27%

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Because lasers make everything better. :cool:

Lasers can fix this problem by igniting the fuel in the middle of the combustion chamber instead of at the outer edge. This results in a much more complete burn, so you get more bang for your buck, literally. Also, lasers can be fired with nanosecond timing (multiple times per combustion cycle if necessary), and even targeted at different areas of the combustion chamber.
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This is dumb. When a piston is at TDC, the spark plug tip is near the center of the combustion chamber, not the outer edge.
 
dceremuga said:
This is dumb. When a piston is at TDC, the spark plug tip is near the center of the combustion chamber, not the outer edge.
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Yes the ignition point would be at the spark plug, not the center where you would benefit the most from gas expansion.
 
less tax burden on us tax payers or extending the money the military has. i'm for it.
 
How about making the engines run hotter?
I know its not a new idea, but how about implementing it?
Article sounds BSish.
Now if the laser is relatively cheap, and last for the life of the car without significant performance degradation, then yeah, bye bye spark plugs.
Spark plugs last much longer now though, so even that, I don't know.
 
Why do you want to run the engine hotter? More heat = fuel efficiency?
 
I would rather have multiple spark discharge ignition. Don't really need a new method. Just multiple sparks.
 
I'm not going to pretend I understand how this works, if they can get a cost-effective production version that actually is 30%+ more efficient then it will be in everything in a few years. There's a bunch of "if"s involved but it could be the next direct-injection.
 
Spark plug in a well designed engine cylinder already fires near the middle of the chamber, they haven't made top mount firing since the 50's or REALLY shitty designed cars up till the mid 80's, but those nobody drove.

Spark plug extends well into an engine cylinder in most cars for the last 30-40 years to do mid chamber firing.

Also congrats, your laser requires a lens to be clean at all times, efficiency would drop drastically if not stop completely after an hour when the lens is obscured
 
dceremuga said:
This is dumb. When a piston is at TDC, the spark plug tip is near the center of the combustion chamber, not the outer edge.
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You sometimes ignite before TDC, it takes time for the flame front to spread and 'mature', combustion effects peak out long after TDC. The flame doesn't move slow but neither is the piston.
 
GeForceX said:
Why do you want to run the engine hotter? More heat = fuel efficiency?
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The engine is mostly aluminum and its pretty much already at max working temp. A ceramic composite engine has been proposed, but so far no one has been able to make a cost effective version and which doesn't suffer from brittleness issues.
 
Uvaman said:
How about making the engines run hotter?
I know its not a new idea, but how about implementing it?
Article sounds BSish.
Now if the laser is relatively cheap, and last for the life of the car without significant performance degradation, then yeah, bye bye spark plugs.
Spark plugs last much longer now though, so even that, I don't know.
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Then you run into metal expansion problems. If you have an aluminum head and an iron block they will expand at different rates causing what would be a gap between the two causing the gasket to fail (happened in my 87 4runner 22RE). If you make them of the same metal, you either have a really heavy engine, or a much lighter, but more expensive engine. They would have to engineer the engine to with stand it and from what I've seen, no one has done a good job of it.

One thing I am not sure of is how they will keep the laser clean, I mean if you have ever changed a spark plug they are generally dirty and covered with gunk. So if the lens is covered with junk, you won't have the light anymore, which means no ignition of the fuel. Maybe we should just move to the cummins style of ignition, compression ignition. Screw spark plugs, glow plugs and laser plugs lol.
 
AliceCooper said:
Then you run into metal expansion problems. If you have an aluminum head and an iron block they will expand at different rates causing what would be a gap between the two causing the gasket to fail (happened in my 87 4runner 22RE). If you make them of the same metal, you either have a really heavy engine, or a much lighter, but more expensive engine. They would have to engineer the engine to with stand it and from what I've seen, no one has done a good job of it.

One thing I am not sure of is how they will keep the laser clean, I mean if you have ever changed a spark plug they are generally dirty and covered with gunk. So if the lens is covered with junk, you won't have the light anymore, which means no ignition of the fuel. Maybe we should just move to the cummins style of ignition, compression ignition. Screw spark plugs, glow plugs and laser plugs lol.
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That's why they rarely use cork gaskets in engines with aluminum heads and use high temp double compressible silicon gaskets.

If you're using cork gaskets with an aluminum head, god help you
 
dceremuga said:
This is dumb. When a piston is at TDC, the spark plug tip is near the center of the combustion chamber, not the outer edge.
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Its still centered towards the outer edge of the combustion chamber, even in dual-spark configurations like I'm running.

They are talking about initiating the flame front from the very center of the compressed air-fuel mixture, and that is unique.

Unlike a spark plug, a laser would also be self-cleaning on every firing, and it wouldn't need to protrude at all into the combustion chamber.

As lasers become smaller and more powerful every year, it is just a matter of time. The question though is:
1) 27% sounds like bullshit, as spark plugs aren't that inefficient
2) Will the present cost of a reliable laser setup outweigh other options for improved fuel economy... for example, spending $200 more on lasers in place of sparkplugs may be less of an overall efficiency advantage to say spending $200 more for ceramic bearings that are ultra-low rolling resistance.
 
Be interesting to see if this makes it into F1 cars (would that be legal under their rules?) and perfected enough to come down to the consumer market.

Trying to brainstorm some type of rotating lens that could be implemented and the non-active lens cleaned to manage the "gunk" issue, but definitely adds cost, complexity and additional failure points.
 
Most of the energy lost in a engine is heat and we still don't have a way to use that energy?
 
ShamisOMally said:
That's why they rarely use cork gaskets in engines with aluminum heads and use high temp double compressible silicon gaskets.

If you're using cork gaskets with an aluminum head, god help you
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Hehe the one I blew wasn't cork, but it wasn't anything special either ;). I replaced it with a nice metal gasket I believe, not sure been a while since I did the rebuild. Either way, running an engine hotter is not a good idea unless they engineer the engine better.
 
I think that instead of focusing on the spark, it would make more sense to improve on fuel delivery and cylinder design. We've moved in the right direction with smaller more efficient direct injected turbocharged engines, but really we haven't had a revolutionary change in what seems like a long time. I'm curious what the engineers can come up with in the next 10 years.

Also, can we consider a moment the fuel we run? Aside from the switch from leaded to unleaded, have there been any big changes to the fuel we put into our cars? Can more efficiency and power be had by changing our fuel recipes? E85 seems to run really well with tuned high power turbo cars, but as I understand it's costly to produce (with corn) and (if i remember correctly) it has an issue of gumming up injectors.and is bad for plastic and rubber.

I'm sure there's plenty of money and time spent, by a lot of smart people trying to solve these problems I'm just curious where the next revolution in power will come from
 
TwistedAegis said:
Be interesting to see if this makes it into F1 cars (would that be legal under their rules?) and perfected enough to come down to the consumer market.

Trying to brainstorm some type of rotating lens that could be implemented and the non-active lens cleaned to manage the "gunk" issue, but definitely adds cost, complexity and additional failure points.
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F1 cars would already be ungodly fast if it weren't for all the limitations they put on them.

The power they were making back in the 80s before they banned turbos alone was absolutely ridiculous... so crazy they felt the power levels were unsafe and began heavy nerfing to make F1 cars slower. While they are finally allowing turbos again, they are restricted to motorcycle size engines with high fuel efficiency requirements and restrictions on fuel pressure and engine RPMs to again keep the power levels low.

It'd be hard to imagine how fast F1 cars would be unregulated. They'd likely have eight tires, big turbocharged V12s, massive ground effects with active aerodynamics (including fans to create a vacuum under the car), and they wouldn't even have a driver and would just use sensors and rely on programs to race.

They would be lapping current F1 cars in a matter of minutes.
 
AliceCooper said:
expand at different rates causing what would be a gap between the two causing the gasket to fail (happened in my 87 4runner 22RE).
Click to expand...

somebody ran low on coolant/blew a hose


99% of 22RE failures either timing chain guide failure or straight up user error
 
+27% does seem quite high but I can see how they could get close.
Having no spark plug in the cylinder will allow a more uniform and faster burn.
Multiple fires of the laser in different parts of the cylinder would enhance this further.

This doesnt necessarily change the ratio of heat vs power produced but it will allow more of the fuel to be burned.
Interesting.
 
Great...let me know when they figure out how to keep the lens clean and intact from carbon buildup, oil, and high heat/vibration.
 
AliceCooper said:
Hehe the one I blew wasn't cork, but it wasn't anything special either ;). I replaced it with a nice metal gasket I believe, not sure been a while since I did the rebuild. Either way, running an engine hotter is not a good idea unless they engineer the engine better.
Click to expand...

Actually a lot of engines will put out more horsepower is allowed to run hotter. But the exhaust output temperature is regulated by the catalytic converter which is lower then peak performance.

So you get reduced performance so you produce less emissions...and why you see high temp radiator caps offered in aftermarket.
 
jojo69 said:
somebody ran low on coolant/blew a hose


99% of 22RE failures either timing chain guide failure or straight up user error
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LOL, not correct at all. Timing chain guides are a point of failure in those engines, but that is not the only part they messed up. In my 87 (can't remember if this flaw is in other years), but if you look at how the coolant lines are ran for the heater, it dumps cold water behind the t-stat causing it to close even though the rest of the coolant is hot causing overheating no matter how well your system flows, cools, etc. And if your coolant sensor isn't working properly (like just about every toyota from that era out there), you won't notice it over heating until it rapidly rises above normal operating temps. It happened right after I bought it. I can make that truck over heat at will with the flip of a switch, the heater switch. Even after I overhauled the whole thing. Also did you know the headgaskets from the factory are pretty crap? The 22RE's aren't as bad as the 3VZ-E, but they do have problems.

DigitalGriffin said:
Actually a lot of engines will put out more horsepower is allowed to run hotter. But the exhaust output temperature is regulated by the catalytic converter which is lower then peak performance.

So you get reduced performance so you produce less emissions...and why you see high temp radiator caps offered in aftermarket.
Click to expand...

Not saying they won't put out more power, I am saying that if they want them to run hotter, they better engineer their stuff better...
 
ShamisOMally said:
Spark plug in a well designed engine cylinder already fires near the middle of the chamber, they haven't made top mount firing since the 50's or REALLY shitty designed cars up till the mid 80's, but those nobody drove.

Spark plug extends well into an engine cylinder in most cars for the last 30-40 years to do mid chamber firing.

Also congrats, your laser requires a lens to be clean at all times, efficiency would drop drastically if not stop completely after an hour when the lens is obscured
Click to expand...

You do realize that any suggestion to improve anything always has draw-backs that need to be engineered out of the equation. Considering it took you a few minutes to device your con list, I'm pretty sure a much more skilled group of Opto-Mechanical Engineers and Physicists have long thought of such issues and if it's idea that's being proposed that it's atleast feasible that these engineering concerns have already been theorhetical handled. Or of course we can just grumble grumble from our arm chairs with rudementary knowledge of said topic and just shit on it because it's not a perfect solution. As if anything is.
 
Ducman69 said:
and they wouldn't even have a driver and would just use sensors and rely on programs to race.
Click to expand...

That wouldn't be racing, that'd be showing off your skills to engineer something stupid fast.
 
Ducman69 said:
F1 cars would already be ungodly fast if it weren't for all the limitations they put on them.

The power they were making back in the 80s before they banned turbos alone was absolutely ridiculous... so crazy they felt the power levels were unsafe and began heavy nerfing to make F1 cars slower. While they are finally allowing turbos again, they are restricted to motorcycle size engines with high fuel efficiency requirements and restrictions on fuel pressure and engine RPMs to again keep the power levels low.

It'd be hard to imagine how fast F1 cars would be unregulated. They'd likely have eight tires, big turbocharged V12s, massive ground effects with active aerodynamics (including fans to create a vacuum under the car), and they wouldn't even have a driver and would just use sensors and rely on programs to race.

They would be lapping current F1 cars in a matter of minutes.
Click to expand...

No current track could support what you have in mind. Is Le Mans not it, though?
 
jpm100 said:
You sometimes ignite before TDC, it takes time for the flame front to spread and 'mature', combustion effects peak out long after TDC. The flame doesn't move slow but neither is the piston.
Click to expand...

Eh, you ALWAYS ignite before TDC. Basically every single engine designed performs best at 12-16 degrees before tdc for combustion.
 
If F1 racing isn't using laser to ignite in the combustion cycle, then it won't happen down at the consumer level. Also, laser spark plugs have been touted, but never seen.
 
AliceCooper said:
Then you run into metal expansion problems. If you have an aluminum head and an iron block they will expand at different rates causing what would be a gap between the two causing the gasket to fail (happened in my 87 4runner 22RE). If you make them of the same metal, you either have a really heavy engine, or a much lighter, but more expensive engine. They would have to engineer the engine to with stand it and from what I've seen, no one has done a good job of it.

One thing I am not sure of is how they will keep the laser clean, I mean if you have ever changed a spark plug they are generally dirty and covered with gunk. So if the lens is covered with junk, you won't have the light anymore, which means no ignition of the fuel. Maybe we should just move to the cummins style of ignition, compression ignition. Screw spark plugs, glow plugs and laser plugs lol.
Click to expand...

The Japanese did fine with an aluminum head and iron block combination.

Look at all the old Datsun/Nissan cars that ran them.

I have never had a head gasket fail in one of mine... 76 280z and 81 280zx. I no longer have the 76, but I put a lot of miles on it and it never gave me a problem. I did replace the head gasket after I got it, but that wasn't because it was blown.. it was because I wanted to look at the pistons to see how much buildup was on them.

The 81 I have never had the head off, and it it pretty high mileage. Not sure of the exact number since it has been sitting in my garage for a few years waiting for me to do some other work on it.
 
w00t69 said:
Eh, you ALWAYS ignite before TDC. Basically every single engine designed performs best at 12-16 degrees before tdc for combustion.
Click to expand...

Maybe at idle. Once the RPMs get up, the timing advances to 30 or more degrees before tdc.
 
cyclone3d said:
The Japanese did fine with an aluminum head and iron block combination.

Look at all the old Datsun/Nissan cars that ran them.

I have never had a head gasket fail in one of mine... 76 280z and 81 280zx. I no longer have the 76, but I put a lot of miles on it and it never gave me a problem. I did replace the head gasket after I got it, but that wasn't because it was blown.. it was because I wanted to look at the pistons to see how much buildup was on them.

The 81 I have never had the head off, and it it pretty high mileage. Not sure of the exact number since it has been sitting in my garage for a few years waiting for me to do some other work on it.
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You're right, a lot of those old engines run forever. My 22RE had 228k before it blew. The point I was making is, they need to figure out how they would allow the engines to run at higher temps. I bet neither one of those cars has over heated, if they have, probably not more than once. When you over heat you basically crush/rub the gasket causing a small gap to form. Due to the different metals expanding at different rates. The hotter you get the worse this becomes. Some people get lucky and can overheat their engine 20 times and not have issues, but that doesn't mean there isn't the expansion problem. If you want engines to run hotter, those who are designing the engine need to take this into consideration.
 
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