The Tech Worker Shortage Doesn't Really Exist

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Shortage of qualified American workers my ass. Businessweek breaks it all down for you.

“There’s no evidence of any way, shape, or form that there’s a shortage in the conventional sense,” says Hal Salzman, a professor of planning and public policy at Rutgers University. “They may not be able to find them at the price they want. But I’m not sure that qualifies as a shortage, any more than my not being able to find a half-priced TV.”
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I would say that is pretty accurate as I've struggled to find a decent job. Oh I've had plenty of utterly insulting offers, but no job offers I would willingly take. This whole shortage thing has been blown out of proportion so much and there are so many people out there who are just flatly unqualified for many of the positions they apply for. Businesses think they can just offer whatever they want and get away with it. I'll continue doing contract and freelance where I can set my own schedule and rates until I find a place with sane hiring managers.
 
There's a shortage if you need to pay more than you would like. So let's use government money to encourage people into the tech field so we can saturate the market.
 
IMO this is manufactured hype by the industry to lower wages for tech workers by creating a false sense of there being too many openings in the job market. By the time the students graduate and enter the field, only to realize they are only offered peanuts, it will be too late for many to bother retraining.

If anything, we have a surplus, and if it were me I'd go into the medical industry, that's where I see the growth.
 
Ducman69 said:
IMO this is manufactured hype by the industry to lower wages for tech workers by creating a false sense of there being too many openings in the job market. By the time the students graduate and enter the field, only to realize they are only offered peanuts, it will be too late for many to bother retraining.

If anything, we have a surplus, and if it were me I'd go into the medical industry, that's where I see the growth.
Click to expand...

The strongest growth sectors I can see are LEO / homeland security / prison / military industrial complex.
 
Dekoth-E- said:
there are so many people out there who are just flatly unqualified for many of the positions they apply for.
Click to expand...

That right there is the truth,

We have interviewed at least 60 people for a level 3 systems admin and non of them knew what a FSMO role was, couldn't even name one!
 
Lith1um said:
The strongest growth sectors I can see are LEO / homeland security / prison / military industrial complex.
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Maybe not, because those things are already very large, and you can be a security guard/cop/homeland guy well into old age quite successfully with great job security due to the unions. To be growth sectors, you'd expect them to get much larger than they already are, but I think its as big as it can get.

And with more and more states legalizing marijuana, I think we're starting to see an end to the war on drugs, which feeds that system.

Obama is downsizing the military now as well, and over 1200 captains and 500 majors were just forced to resign, some finding out while they were on active duty.

Thanks to Obamacare though, I see there being a huge increase in healthcare usage, and as such a need for doctors and RNs and the like.
 
k1pp3r said:
That right there is the truth,

We have interviewed at least 60 people for a level 3 systems admin and non of them knew what a FSMO role was, couldn't even name one!
Click to expand...

To be fair, I had to think a minute as well as I haven't heard them not refferred to as OM's for quite a few years. Do they still teach it as FSMO? Or do they just focus on the specialized DC's and call it op manager? I haven't touched AD ever since I just said F servers and went full on Cisco certs. :D
 
IT is generally seen as a cost rather than an asset, and I think that is part of the reason why wages are lower than they really should be. Unless you're an IT services company, you can't directly bill the customer for IT staff, and if you can't bill the customer, you are looked down upon as dead weight. The same distorted view exists for other non-billable staff such as HR or payroll, etc. But the people in these positions are essential to the health and stability of the company, and there are too many upper management people who just don't realize that. It's not until something goes wrong that costs the company money that good IT staff is seen as an asset.

Now, as far as a shortage, I don't know how it is in the rest of the country, but in my area there is a massive shortage of qualified IT staff. My company has had 4 IT positions open for between 6 months and 2 years, and we just can't fill them, at any price. I've interviewed hundreds of people over the years, and 99% of them are so unqualified that I wouldn't hire them to take out the trash, much less do anything IT related. There seems to be a glut of people who have zero IT experience applying for IT jobs because they are sick of whatever they are doing and want a change.
 
Hopefully we can import more skilled workers to drive inflated IT wages down.
 
In the beginning, outsourcing was a thing. Everybody outsourced. Then they realized that code shops far away from the business people produced garbage and there was a total failure of communication.

Now they say, "well if we bring the far away people here, closer to the business people, then we can make good software".

The answer is still no! They totally fail to understand the Agile movement, and totally fail to understand the forces that drive smart software engineers.

Software engineering is a creative process. The people who are good at it don't do it for money, they do it for the love. They do it because that's the only thing they want to do. When you treat your engineers like assembly line workers, and offer rock bottom compensation and benefits, you're going to get rock bottom quality. You get what you pay for.
 
Old Man said:
Hopefully we can import more skilled workers to drive inflated IT wages down.
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answered by

i960 said:
I've interviewed hundreds of people over the years, and 99% of them are so unqualified that I wouldn't hire them to take out the trash, much less do anything IT related. There seems to be a glut of people who have zero IT experience applying for IT jobs because they are sick of whatever they are doing and want a change.
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I'm a programmer. I know when people look at some of these salaries they think that they are inflated, but they are not. Becoming a good programmer and constantly improving your skills is a difficult process that requires an enormous amount of patience. Some of the books we read would make most peoples brains explode out of boredom.

Go to wikipedia and read the page about character encoding. And read all the links emanating from that page. It's supremely boring stuff. Now imagine doing that 8 hours a day every day for years and years. Not everyone can do it. The people who do it, and are good at it, love it! I do it and I love it. You have to do it for the love otherwise you won't survive.

This recent push to get everyone into IT schools and get a 6-month certificate is absurd. Again, not everyone is cut out for this. Imagine if we started pushing everyone into 6-month programs to become doctors, and then let them operate on people. That is crazy! Programmers don't have people's lives in their hands, but we do handle a lot of personal information. Buggy software can cripple a company's operations.
 
i960 said:
My company has had 4 IT positions open for between 6 months and 2 years, and we just can't fill them, at any price.
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I assume the "at any price" part can't be true.

Big companies like Google, Apple, Microsoft, etc. will pay well over 6 figures to skilled employees. Have you tried that price?
 
i960 said:
I don't know how it is in the rest of the country, but in my area there is a massive shortage of qualified IT staff. My company has had 4 IT positions open for between 6 months and 2 years, and we just can't fill them, at any price. I've interviewed hundreds of people over the years, and 99% of them are so unqualified that I wouldn't hire them to take out the trash, much less do anything IT related. There seems to be a glut of people who have zero IT experience applying for IT jobs because they are sick of whatever they are doing and want a change.
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My current contract is expiring soon. Tell me more about these openings...
 
Fantastic read to them i say well no shit. The real issue a practice called Permatemping, essentially the company hires you to work for them under a contractor then after a certain amount of time every 3 or so years you get a unpaid 6 month vacation and then you return to work for the company under a contracting firm. At the company i work for is notorious for permatemping employees to cut costs.
 
k1pp3r said:
That right there is the truth,

We have interviewed at least 60 people for a level 3 systems admin and non of them knew what a FSMO role was, couldn't even name one!
Click to expand...

I think that is a failing of your questions. I had to glance to look up what an FSMO role was myself, only because I have never personally managed role based activities for automated systems (like updates.) in a windows environment.

I would instead ask questions around the topic and see if the interviewee actually understands the concept, then top it off and ask if they know what the category for these roles is called in Active directory. If they don't just say thank you and move on.

Then base the criteria on hiring them based on that. Not knowing a specific Acronym in OUR industry is a crappy reason for turning away someone who may be a brilliant new hire.

Just a thought from an IT Engineer. NOT AD sysadmin.
 
i960 said:
IT is generally seen as a cost rather than an asset, and I think that is part of the reason why wages are lower than they really should be. Unless you're an IT services company, you can't directly bill the customer for IT staff, and if you can't bill the customer, you are looked down upon as dead weight. The same distorted view exists for other non-billable staff such as HR or payroll, etc. But the people in these positions are essential to the health and stability of the company, and there are too many upper management people who just don't realize that. It's not until something goes wrong that costs the company money that good IT staff is seen as an asset.
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+1
As a software company we see this all they time with our customers. They hirer some managers son-in-law, or other clueless IT person who isn't much more than a desktop level support person. Makes installing enterprise level software rather difficult when they can't even answer basic network configuration questions.


i960 said:
Now, as far as a shortage, I don't know how it is in the rest of the country, but in my area there is a massive shortage of qualified IT staff. My company has had 4 IT positions open for between 6 months and 2 years, and we just can't fill them, at any price. I've interviewed hundreds of people over the years, and 99% of them are so unqualified that I wouldn't hire them to take out the trash, much less do anything IT related. There seems to be a glut of people who have zero IT experience applying for IT jobs because they are sick of whatever they are doing and want a change.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure where you are from, but out here in Southern California, there is enough of a glut that wages are still depressed from 15 years ago. I've taken on a lot more work and responsibilities and I'm still making less (about 25% less adjusted for inflation) than I was 15 years ago.

There are some positions that are hard to fill, specifically SQL people that have good customer skills and are willing to travel. However, I'm sure if the company was willing to pay 20% more they would have a lot less trouble finding people, but then they would have to give everyone else raises too :)
 
Grimlaking said:
I think that is a failing of your questions. I had to glance to look up what an FSMO role was myself, only because I have never personally managed role based activities for automated systems (like updates.) in a windows environment.

I would instead ask questions around the topic and see if the interviewee actually understands the concept, then top it off and ask if they know what the category for these roles is called in Active directory. If they don't just say thank you and move on.
Click to expand...

If someone says they are an expert at ADS then they better damn well know what one FSMO role is. I have a lot of people claim expert on everything AD and can't answer that one question.

And I don't make the job offers, hell I stopped doing interviews cause my boss didn't like me telling him not to hire people lol
 
The secret to being successful in enterprise level IT is understanding up front that nobody really knows what the fuck they are doing without ever actually expressing that knowledge.
 
It seems like it's difficult to find someone balanced who understands running a business and is willing to take responsibility... but maybe I am at the sweet spot being pro-social, motivated by personal performance...


The people we get work suffers due to character flaws; mostly desktop support.

It's interesting. I guess I am lucky that I can be so aloof, yet secure, and deliver... also, practically footloose... advantageous psychological factors...

I guess most do not employ such strategy... :)
 
In certain roles, there definitely ARE shortages -- at least of QUALIFIED and capable people.

If you are looking for web programmers, database programmers, etc. they are basically a dime a dozen.
Now try to find good low level embedded programmers with hardware integration experience, device driver writers, basic C level kernel work, etc. Or for that matter, just good old fashioned low level programming in straight C++ for an embedded system where you are lucky if you have a framebuffer for display. The same goes for good EE's capable of doing full board design and layout, especially if any analog design and high speed signal processing are required. Ditto for good DSP and/or FPGA programmers.

Basically, with a decent driver oriented software engineer you should be able to hand the datasheet, the schematic, and tell them the kernel/os version and then ask them to get back with you when they have something to test.

One of the companies I work for has had req's open for years and hasn't been able to fill the positions -- and they aren't low paying positions for this area.

It is difficult these days to try to find a programmer these days who actually doesn't give you blank looks when you talk about direct I/O access to SPI, I2C, DMA, memory mapped I/O, etc.

Here's hoping the Raspberry Pi is giving at least some lowlevel hardware experience to a new generation.
 
k1pp3r said:
They are still there in 2012 R2

http://support.microsoft.com/kb/223346
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I just wish some of my CUSTOMERS had enough of a clue to even care about FSMO's in relation to AD servers.

I have enough trouble convincing some of them why they actually need to have more than one server rather than just trying to make one poor machine their Exchange server, DNS server, TS/RDP server, primary DC, internal web server, file server, and SQL server.... all at the same time.

And, in regards to the other earlier comment about Windows 2000, I still have one site running it. We finally took down the TS server about a month back and I am hoping to FINALLY be able to take down the primary DC in a couple of weeks. Honestly, the only reason it is still even up now is because the equally ancient phone system they have was configured with it hardcoded as the DNS server and stores voicemail to a share on it -- and no one knows any of the passwords to reconfigure the phone system and the company that set it up originally has changed hands multiple times in the last 12+ years.
 
I think the problem is and always has been that in the early days programmers were almost all enthusiasts. People who got into it because they loved it. And many of them devoted untold hours to programming in their parents basements. What CEOs are now complaining about is that there are a lot of people out there now days who couldn't give a rats ass about programming. They just want the paycheck, just like dentists, doctors, and lawers. What easier way is there to clock a 6 figure income than to become a programmer? Most of the other degrees require a phd equivalent to get to those numbers. Boohoo cry me a river you want everyone in the company to have the same motivation you do but you don't want to pay them much and they have no chance of becoming a billionaire like you.

The next revolution in computing is going to be when people or companies figure out how to properly divide their workforce into the creative upper level engineers and the code monkeys that just do what the other guys tell them to and the jobs they do are simple enough they can't easily screw them up. It will be the equivalent of the fast food worker for programming.

The other major overlook I see is that most of these guys grew up in a time where they cut their teeth either at a company or in their own company, and they nievely think that universities are suppose to just pump out people who know and do exactly what they want. Seems they forgot what they went through to learn. Fat chance, universities are full of liberal idealistic open source freaks and mactards. You think those people are going to produce hit the ground running coders when they are too busy trying to force the students to learn on open source software to teach them what they will actually use in the work environment? Most programmers coming out of college are going to need some time to get into the groove of real world experience, learn to use the tools the trade actually uses, etc.... All they have coming out of college is a foundation, not a solution.

But that said even if there is a shortage it is only temporary, it wont be long before the mobile war is won and the billions being dumped into the next blockbuster phone app are no more and there is a huge collapse in wages and consolidation of most apps into the OS or a few power applications. Then you guys will have plenty of workers to choose from. And right around that same time there will be a saturation of college students looking to goto Hollywood, oops I mean silicone valley and make 6 figure incomes.
 
jimmyb said:
I assume the "at any price" part can't be true.

Big companies like Google, Apple, Microsoft, etc. will pay well over 6 figures to skilled employees. Have you tried that price?
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Yep, I work for one of those 3 companies right now and do a lot of interviewing for them. Even at the good schools, half of the students aren't ready to be productive at a high level. Industry hires are even more of a crap shoot. The worst industry candidates are the ones who come in with 10-20 years of experience and clearly don't want to do problem solving or generate a code sample for even a 45 minute interview.

Businessweek seems to think that simply graduating with the right degree or having skills 10 years out of date makes you qualified.

H1-Bs aren't the answer either, we're happy to get a good one and have plenty of people to deal with the paperwork, but I can't say they have any better success rates.
 
msde said:
Yep, I work for one of those 3 companies right now and do a lot of interviewing for them. Even at the good schools, half of the students aren't ready to be productive at a high level. Industry hires are even more of a crap shoot. The worst industry candidates are the ones who come in with 10-20 years of experience and clearly don't want to do problem solving or generate a code sample for even a 45 minute interview.

Businessweek seems to think that simply graduating with the right degree or having skills 10 years out of date makes you qualified.

H1-Bs aren't the answer either, we're happy to get a good one and have plenty of people to deal with the paperwork, but I can't say they have any better success rates.
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Does your company do anything to encourage the type of training you need at local Universities?
 
Magnus said:
Does your company do anything to encourage the type of training you need at local Universities?
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I'd like an answer to that, along with a description of what kind of "training" he thinks is lacking.
 
mdburkey said:
In certain roles, there definitely ARE shortages -- at least of QUALIFIED and capable people.

If you are looking for web programmers, database programmers, etc. they are basically a dime a dozen.
Now try to find good low level embedded programmers with hardware integration experience, device driver writers, basic C level kernel work, etc. Or for that matter, just good old fashioned low level programming in straight C++ for an embedded system where you are lucky if you have a framebuffer for display. The same goes for good EE's capable of doing full board design and layout, especially if any analog design and high speed signal processing are required. Ditto for good DSP and/or FPGA programmers.

Basically, with a decent driver oriented software engineer you should be able to hand the datasheet, the schematic, and tell them the kernel/os version and then ask them to get back with you when they have something to test.

One of the companies I work for has had req's open for years and hasn't been able to fill the positions -- and they aren't low paying positions for this area.

It is difficult these days to try to find a programmer these days who actually doesn't give you blank looks when you talk about direct I/O access to SPI, I2C, DMA, memory mapped I/O, etc.

Here's hoping the Raspberry Pi is giving at least some lowlevel hardware experience to a new generation.
Click to expand...

It's true those engineers are rare, but those job opportunities are just as rare. At least in this area they're practically unheard of.
 
msde said:
Yep, I work for one of those 3 companies right now and do a lot of interviewing for them. Even at the good schools, half of the students aren't ready to be productive at a high level. Industry hires are even more of a crap shoot. The worst industry candidates are the ones who come in with 10-20 years of experience and clearly don't want to do problem solving or generate a code sample for even a 45 minute interview.

Businessweek seems to think that simply graduating with the right degree or having skills 10 years out of date makes you qualified.

H1-Bs aren't the answer either, we're happy to get a good one and have plenty of people to deal with the paperwork, but I can't say they have any better success rates.
Click to expand...

Most of the kids we see coming out of school want to design "cool apps" and don't have any clue as to real low level coding -- especially CS majors. ECE majors are a bit better, but not much.

Also, on the "10 year out of date" skill set -- this may be true, to a degree, but most of the older coders are familiar with HOW to write good code and may just need to learn a new language or API. Even if they are out of date, the good ones are a lot quicker to bring up to speed than the new hires out of college typically are.

Along the same vein, the older coders (and engineers in general) often have knowledge bases that still apply for much of the low level and/or embedded side of the world (i.e. I still do the vast majority of my own code in straight C and compile straight from the shell with no IDE -- but I'm primarily doing device drivers, work in the Linux kernel itself, and the barebox boot loader for the iMX6 series). The same can be said for many of the hardware engineers who design power supplies, battery chargers, high speed signal processing (with low induced analog noise), high current/high voltage monitoring/measurement, PSD and MCA design, etc.

The number of students I see coming out of school with even the slightest preparation for these type jobs seems to be constantly dwindling -- and the workforce doing the jobs is increasingly grey headed (the best high speed analog/digital design engineer I know is still working as a very highly paid contractor -- and he is in his 70's). In several cases I personally know of, companies I deal with have hired back retirees from other companies at a premium -- simply because no one else has their skill sets. And the scary thing is -- we can't seem to find anyone of the younger generation interested in learning it to take over when these guys finally either quit or drop dead!

Part of the problem is that many of the skill sets I am describing often take 10+ years to really learn because a lot of the knowledge is still close to "black magic" even today -- and about the only way to learn it is to either bludgeon your way through it or stick with someone who already knows it for several YEARS while they train you. Unfortunately, it is nearly impossible to find new hires out of college who WANT to stick with the same company in the same role for the several years that it takes to learn the job -- with the expectation that they will probably be doing that SAME JOB for the next 40 years after they learn it. They all want the sexy, fun, get rich quick path with new and varied assignments and moving up the ladder. Planning to be a professional engineer and the "knowledge repository" for a given skill set just doesn't interest them.

What makes this even worse is that these skills are the ones underneath ALL the other skills that enable them to work -- i.e. power supplies, transmitters, device drivers, the kernel itself, the bootloader, etc.

If we don't get some younger people going into the low level, advanced engineering fields with the intent to stay there for, effectively, the rest of their lives, then in 10-15 years we are going to be in a world of hurt.
 
msde said:
Yep, I work for one of those 3 companies right now and do a lot of interviewing for them. Even at the good schools, half of the students aren't ready to be productive at a high level. Industry hires are even more of a crap shoot. The worst industry candidates are the ones who come in with 10-20 years of experience and clearly don't want to do problem solving or generate a code sample for even a 45 minute interview.

Businessweek seems to think that simply graduating with the right degree or having skills 10 years out of date makes you qualified.

H1-Bs aren't the answer either, we're happy to get a good one and have plenty of people to deal with the paperwork, but I can't say they have any better success rates.
Click to expand...

It's hard to imagine that Google, Apple, and Microsoft -- with their exorbitant revenues -- are having a hard time acquiring the talent they need to make their products. This is like saying the Yankees just can't find any good ball players. If that is really the case then maybe they need to look inside and re-examine what's going on in their companies.

To be honest, judging by the quality of software coming from those three companies, they appear (from an outsider's view) to prefer low-wage workers to talented people. It doesn't seem like software quality is a high priority at those places, and that's why they rely so much on hype, glitz, and marketing to make up the difference. Google is the biggest offender here. From the user-facing software all the way down to their programming APIs the whole company looks like they have the biggest department of clueless software developers / poor SQA of any major company out there. If they're paying them any more than $20 / hr they're not getting their money's worth.
 
mdburkey said:
The number of students I see coming out of school with even the slightest preparation for these type jobs seems to be constantly dwindling -- and the workforce doing the jobs is increasingly grey headed (the best high speed analog/digital design engineer I know is still working as a very highly paid contractor -- and he is in his 70's). In several cases I personally know of, companies I deal with have hired back retirees from other companies at a premium -- simply because no one else has their skill sets. And the scary thing is -- we can't seem to find anyone of the younger generation interested in learning it to take over when these guys finally either quit or drop dead!


If we don't get some younger people going into the low level, advanced engineering fields with the intent to stay there for, effectively, the rest of their lives, then in 10-15 years we are going to be in a world of hurt.
Click to expand...

come on, now... All this makes great material for a PBS special, but this isn't how the real world works. There's a zillion reqs open right now for "Drupal developers" (whatever that even means) and approximately zero for embedded C. A man has to make his bread and that means learning and knowing the skills -- no matter how awful they are -- that are in demand.

And right now that's idiotic frameworks like Drupal and Joomla and (insert next fad of the year here).
 
mdburkey said:
If we don't get some younger people going into the low level, advanced engineering fields with the intent to stay there for, effectively, the rest of their lives, then in 10-15 years we are going to be in a world of hurt.
Click to expand...

I think your experience is not representative of the field at large. Recruitment can be difficult and complex process - the fact you're not seeing the talent you want may be a result of those processes rather than the existence of talented engineers.

My experience for example is on the opposite end of that spectrum.
 
mdburkey said:
Most of the kids we see coming out of school want to design "cool apps" and don't have any clue as to real low level coding -- especially CS majors. ECE majors are a bit better, but not much.

Also, on the "10 year out of date" skill set -- this may be true, to a degree, but most of the older coders are familiar with HOW to write good code and may just need to learn a new language or API. Even if they are out of date, the good ones are a lot quicker to bring up to speed than the new hires out of college typically are.

Along the same vein, the older coders (and engineers in general) often have knowledge bases that still apply for much of the low level and/or embedded side of the world (i.e. I still do the vast majority of my own code in straight C and compile straight from the shell with no IDE -- but I'm primarily doing device drivers, work in the Linux kernel itself, and the barebox boot loader for the iMX6 series). The same can be said for many of the hardware engineers who design power supplies, battery chargers, high speed signal processing (with low induced analog noise), high current/high voltage monitoring/measurement, PSD and MCA design, etc.

The number of students I see coming out of school with even the slightest preparation for these type jobs seems to be constantly dwindling -- and the workforce doing the jobs is increasingly grey headed (the best high speed analog/digital design engineer I know is still working as a very highly paid contractor -- and he is in his 70's). In several cases I personally know of, companies I deal with have hired back retirees from other companies at a premium -- simply because no one else has their skill sets. And the scary thing is -- we can't seem to find anyone of the younger generation interested in learning it to take over when these guys finally either quit or drop dead!

Part of the problem is that many of the skill sets I am describing often take 10+ years to really learn because a lot of the knowledge is still close to "black magic" even today -- and about the only way to learn it is to either bludgeon your way through it or stick with someone who already knows it for several YEARS while they train you. Unfortunately, it is nearly impossible to find new hires out of college who WANT to stick with the same company in the same role for the several years that it takes to learn the job -- with the expectation that they will probably be doing that SAME JOB for the next 40 years after they learn it. They all want the sexy, fun, get rich quick path with new and varied assignments and moving up the ladder. Planning to be a professional engineer and the "knowledge repository" for a given skill set just doesn't interest them.

What makes this even worse is that these skills are the ones underneath ALL the other skills that enable them to work -- i.e. power supplies, transmitters, device drivers, the kernel itself, the bootloader, etc.

If we don't get some younger people going into the low level, advanced engineering fields with the intent to stay there for, effectively, the rest of their lives, then in 10-15 years we are going to be in a world of hurt.
Click to expand...

All the answers to your problems are in your own post. The main point of having a sexy fun get rich quick job is that whole get rich part. If you pay a person enough to get rich they will hang around for 10 years. The reality is you guys probably just aren't willing to do what I mentioned, train people for 10 years. Also if you have to just do the stuff for 10 years it would seem your industry and company has a serious lack of recording information going on and some smart engineer probably purposely did not record what they were doing so they could make sure that no one else knew it and have plenty of job security. looks like they pulled it off pretty well.
 
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