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Best way to connect two buildings (Network and Phones) 500ft apart

B

Blue Knight

Gawd
Joined
Dec 2, 2000
Messages
699
I have a projects to try and connect two school campuses together. They're about 300-500ft apart, separated by a row of trees, up a hill elevated about 100ft, and a public street. Also, the storm season is coming and rain downfall can get pretty heavy (northern cali).

Right now they're separate networks and paying for their own services. The bosses are wondering if it's it's possible to cut down on outside services (phone and ISPs) by connecting the campuses. I've run a couple of searches and most information is from 2007 to 2005 - so I'm wondering if there's been any new breakthrough technologies I should be looking into in addition to wireless, laser, or fiber.

This is a non-profit, so there's not a lot of money. I don't think they can afford enterprise solutions, but all options are worth looking into. Security and reliability are necessities though. Not a lot of bandwidth is needed, probably internet and access to a file server to store/backup lessons and documents.

The networking I think is doable, but for the phone lines - is there any other option other than calling the phone company? They're not using VoIP, and are currently on a Avaya DS system.

Thanks for the ideas :D
 
What kind of ISP connections are at each location?

I'm guessing you have POTS lins for the phones also, how many?
 
The main location has both DSL and a Cable Line (AT&T and Comcast)
The secondary location has DSL only (AT&T)

The main location has 4 POTS lines currently used
The 2nd has I think 2-3 lines, but the phone volume isn't heavy enough to warrant using more than 4 simultaneously. However, when connecting the secondary location, we'd probably need about 8-10 phone lines that can connect to the phone server on the main campus (server's capable, but the lines need to be connected).
 
Since At&t is in both buildings why not have them make something work on their ends. Unless they are the major telco in the area.

We have to buildings that the phone company was cool enough to treat as 1 building. We have local internet access through our main bank as well as 2 extensions down there that integrate in to our old ass pbx

Try that
 
calvinj said:
Since At&t is in both buildings why not have them make something work on their ends. Unless they are the major telco in the area.

We have to buildings that the phone company was cool enough to treat as 1 building. We have local internet access through our main bank as well as 2 extensions down there that integrate in to our old ass pbx

Try that
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That is your best bet,

However your current setup can't be more than 800 a month, which isn't bad, try to get a t1 + PTP + PRI for that amount. Not gonna happen
 
I just remembered too that we have a client that has a building in another town and the local isp / telco actually setup a small mpls line within their equipment to tie it all together
 
Is switching to Voip an option? That would allow you to run everything over the network lines that you could connect between the schools. Run a pair of 250' runs of Ethernet to a repeater between the biuldings, or, if you can afford it, run a single line of fiber between two switches with a single FC port on each. Either way would work, but ethernet would be considerably cheaper. (You would likely have to use CAT6, with gigabit switches, though, if a single gigabit line connecting the two campuses isn't enough, you will need to run multiple runs to increase the throughput)
 
Just a thought to call Comcast or ATT or some other provider and ask how much it would be for them to run a fiber line from school to school. Where I live there is a highway seperating two schools from the district office and 2 other schools. They receive their services via a two way radio setup that is horrid. They talked to comcast about a fiber line and the cost to dig up the highway was too much for them to consider on a tight budget.
 
You could always look at a P2P wireless bridge. I've set up the Cisco 1300 and 1400 series bridges for schools in the past, works great as long as you set it up correctly. Even have a couple schools running voice over the bridges.

You could also look at running aerial fiber, too.
 
Find out first if you qualify for erate funds and if so what your discount may be... now is the time to file for July 1, 2010. Even if you do qualify you wouldn't be able to leverage e-rate funds to connect these schools the traditional way, as anything that crosses a public right-of-way is not covered under Internal Connections (assuming you would qualify as a school system anyway). Erate could help pay for the leased lines between the two campuses, such as the mpls that calvinj suggested.

I would wager you'd be looking at between $20k and $40k to bore, pull, and terminate fiber and copper between your two campuses. Going that route would certainly cover your security concerns.

Any wireless solutions you look at for security and reliability are going to be fairly expensive. I'm running gigabit on a licensed frequency using off-the-shelf hardware but the link cost comes in around $35k. At that price you may as well bore in the fiber and copper. You could try it on a slower connection, but again, if you factor in security and reliability using a licensed frequency you'll still be looking at $15k to start. Regardless you'll still need an IP gateway to push your analog lines across the IP link.

For all these factors I think you'll be hard pressed to find something that is cheaper than what you're currently paying. A couple decent routers/firewalls to build solid VPN tunnels and the IP gateway will be far cheaper, although not nearly as convenient as having your own cable in the ground.

Is there any significant growth expected in these buildings? How densely populated is the area? If the area is primarily rural, you might be able to get away with 2.4 or 5 GHz radios, but always check into a site-survey before you assume there's room in the spectrum to push your data reliably.
 
What is the platform your Avaya system runs on? Is it Definity? If so -- more than likely you can get the system enabled with VoIP. Even on other older key/smb systems from Lucent/Avaya (The Merlin/Partner/ACS etc) you can get a fiber trunk for the phones.
 
The site is not densely populated, and there is that public street in the way. So either I'm thinking wireless or calling someone to dig.

I called AT&T on Friday to check the options (They are the primary provider in the area). The first tech insisted that this was impossible as the sites have two different addresses. After much insistence, she put me on hold while she went to talk to an engineer. Somehow I then got transferred to another brand new tech. She took all my information, is going to consult with the supervisor, and then get back to me by Monday. So I'm waiting to see what they say.

Is this really that hard? My main company right now works in 5 different buildings split across 3 streets. I'm sure it costs something, but I don't think it's never been done before.
 
Blue Knight said:
Is this really that hard?
Click to expand...

Your dealing with AT&T, this is ONLY the beggining, prepare to dig in, your in for a long fight.

If the company doesn't want to pay around $800 they are now, there is NO way they are moving to a VOIP system, fiber between buildings, MPLS, PTP

Your just not going to save enough to justify the expense
 
I'm just a networking student but I'll throw my 2 cents in for what it's worth.

Personally, I'd say no to any wireless solution (just asking for trouble IMO), and I'd also recommend against burying copper; my networking studies have taught me of the potential problems you run into when sites on different ground zones develop differences in ground voltage.

Have them bury fiber and be done with it IMO. One-time expense and the buildings are connected, problem solved. You could monkey around with AT&T, but whatever they charge you will end up costing more in the long run than simply running a direct connection between sites.
 
In your estimation then, which is going to be the less expensive alternative, setting up an Aironet connection or burying fiber?
 
Electrofreak said:
In your estimation then, which is going to be the less expensive alternative, setting up an Aironet connection or burying fiber?
Click to expand...

Keeping the current setup, the savings do not justify the expense, you will still need POTS lines, you may need more bandwidth from the main office, you may need to update your phones to VOIP and get a PRI.

There are so many "You may nee too's" that some serious number crunching would need to be done.

From my experience the second office would consist of

Business DSL = ~$120.00/month
3 POTS lines = ~$300/month

Its simply going to be expensive to tie the two sites together. Any way you do it, your going to spend over ~$5000 or more
 
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What about getting business class cable hook ups at both sites and use VPN between sites? Keep you pots lines. Each site has its own route to the internet and VPN access to each other?
 
lens pirate said:
What about getting business class cable hook ups at both sites and use VPN between sites? Keep you pots lines. Each site has its own route to the internet and VPN access to each other?
Click to expand...

They want to eliminate the data and telco cost at the second office.
 
I think the fiber between the two buildings is a good way to go. If the sites have identical PBX systems, you probably can look into seeing if there is an IP gateway card for the system so that you can have the voice traffic go over the fiber as well. Then have one PBX as the gateway to the POTS in the main system and have the secondary PBX branch off the other connected via IP.
 
Can you give us a google image/location... id like to think wirelessly, even though there are trees, that sometimes doesnt effect much if they are close... you might not need point to point but coul get away with a heavy duty outdoor wireless setup.

You always have the motorola wireless options but those are about ohhhh 20 grand
 
If there is a street there, its possible there might be conduit already around? When I worked for a school that was downtown, we leased space in the tunnels from AT&T and pulled our own fiber to our 5 buildings. Generally speaking leasing space in their existing conduit shouldn't be that expensive.

I would tend to agree that long term you might as well just pay the up front cost and run fiber. Its a sunk cost and its not a cheap solution but if the school has every intention of keeping both buildings in the long term, its the only one that makes sense.
 
I'd recommend signing up and posting here. I've been a member for years and I'm sure one of the guys will have a solution.
 
A point to point , fat pipe, mesh link would handle the loads. Meraki, Firetide, Mesh Dynamics, any of them would do the trick.
 
ToastedToad said:
A point to point , fat pipe, mesh link would handle the loads. Meraki, Firetide, Mesh Dynamics, any of them would do the trick.
Click to expand...

Hmm. I've only heard of one of those companies before. Do they differ (do you know) greatly between the Cisco outdoor Mesh/Bridge series of AP's?
 
You really need to get this quoted from someone in the area that does cable plant installations of this nature. I plugged your figures into some older quotes I have that include prices for boring and trenching, and on the high side for the (very short) distance of 500 ft you're only looking at around $20,000 to have your own fiber and copper in the ground. If you sink $5,000-$8,000 into a wireless solution that has problems you're going to eventually end up putting in the fiber anyway. Why waste the money when you can do it right the first time?
 
The wireless Cisco's i linked earlier are rock solid,

With Fiber its not just running the cable, you have to have either fiber switch's or converters at each end, both of which are very expensive
 
I've done a bunch of Proxim-based wireless for this kind of solution. Sustaining 150+mbps over these distances is not out of line and you often can string voice across it if your phone system has any sort of IP capability. If you have LOS you can get something in place for under $10K, no fees, no mess, and it works better than the Cisco stuff in my experience.

Fiber is nice but there are a lot of hurdles that come with it depending on what property you're trying to cross.

Also, you can put up wireless in a few days. Fiber runs can stretch into the weeks depending on paperwork, landlord approvals at both ends, weather, etc.
 
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