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Apple intros MacBook Neo: $599 with an iPhone chip

KazeoHin said:
To Microsoft, the cries of unhappiness from small-time, less-than-trillion-dollar companies like Dell, HP etc. is like a mosquito buzzing in the ear of an elephant. Microsoft receives more money from AI investment in the time it takes to read an email than HP gives Microsoft in a quarter.
Click to expand...
Less than trillion because a lot of what they do is low margin, because a lot of the value is captured by Microsoft.

Dell/HP/Lenovo is the door to have a vast Microsoft userbase, yes the windows Keys sales is maybe just 5% of microsoft business, but how much retention of the O365, Azure, etc... upsell get away in a pure Apple/Linux world, how many people go out to buy a microsoft license and install windows on those computer if they did not come pre-installed.

There is a reason that:
https://www.tomshardware.com/softwa...ions-to-reduce-os-memory-footprint-have-begun

going away from web-browser UI to something native being a big part of this
 
KazeoHin said:
To Microsoft, the cries of unhappiness from small-time, less-than-trillion-dollar companies like Dell, HP etc. is like a mosquito buzzing in the ear of an elephant. Microsoft receives more money from AI investment in the time it takes to read an email than HP gives Microsoft in a quarter.

And on top of that: any company built on Entra ID, Microsoft 365, Windows etc. isn't going to switch unless the cost of re-training, cancelling windows-specific subscriptions, completely re-tuning their network is less than what they'd save in hardware costs in the financial year. Microsoft has you by the balls, and they know it. They can fart out a minimum-viable-product and the only financial choice is to pay them for it.
Click to expand...
This is another reason why the MacBook Neo is so dangerous for Microsoft. It's not just kids and students who start on Macs and never touch Windows at home; it's businesses that were already on the edge and are just frustrated enough that they drift toward more platform-agnostic solutions, including Mac clients. Microsoft's nightmare isn't that people use Entra ID and Microsoft 365 on Macs; it's that the Macs are the gateways to cutting Microsoft out of the loop entirely.
 
Lakados said:
But Dell is very upset about how poorly Windows 11 works on budget hardware because it is hurting their sales.

So I fully believe that Microsoft will fix Windows 11 performance, probably just call it Windows 12 to escape the stigma. but it won't be because of Gamers or enthusiasts; it will be because Dell, HP, and Lenovo are having too difficult a time selling hardware at consumer-friendly prices.
Click to expand...
I don't think it's the performance they should be worried about, but the crap they put in Windows 11 to annoy people. It just so happens that crap is also causing a loss in performance.
Lakados said:
If PC's start shipping without Windows, that hurts Xbox, and Investors won't like that.
Click to expand...
Xbox is already dead so I don't see how this will make things worse?
So yes, at some level Microsoft can tell the OEM's to suck rocks, but it could have lasting implications down the line, especially with the EU already looking for reasons to ditch Windows and O365.

It's just not a move I think Microsoft should make, and I am sure at some level they know that too.
Click to expand...
Microsoft will ignore this because they're benefiting investors. You're thinking 3 years down the road while Microsoft thinks quarterly.
 
DukenukemX said:
Microsoft will ignore this because they're benefiting investors. You're thinking 3 years down the road while Microsoft thinks quarterly.
Click to expand...
Microsoft, like all giant 40+ years old corporation have different horizon for different things, some people at Microsoft think 5-10-15 years down the road.

https://news.microsoft.com/source/features/innovation/majorana-2-microsoft-discovery-agentic-ai/
https://www.cbc.ca/radio/thecurrent/generative-ai-and-nuclear-energy-1.7362127

A company would never have a quarterly 36 billion capex if they were thinking quarterly. They would not make extremely long play to pay off like DirectX (starting to lock gamer into windows, ~3 years later), let people (specially kids) pirate their product so much so years later when they enter the workforce they are used to it already, pushing workplace to use them.

It does not benefit Microsoft investor that much for WIndows 11 UI to use browser engine so much and require giant amount of memory, I do not want to talk about other investor than me, but I do not think that at all. Same for the file explorer and native search feature to be so bad.
 
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DukenukemX said:
Xbox is already dead so I don't see how this will make things worse?
Click to expand...
Xbox may be dead or at least dying, but Microsoft has spent billions trying to build up its publishing capabilities and its IP pools. They will shed the dead weight and try to turn their platform into the Netflix of games. If they can keep their staff working 24/7, churning out multiple 7/10 games in 1-2 years instead of 6+ while making those games available on Steam, PlayStation, Epic, and others, in addition to whatever they call their subscription service, they can call that a win. Even if their console gets discontinued and becomes a certification for 3rd-party OEMs (ex instead of buying an Xbox, you buy a PC, laptop, or Handheld that is Xbox-certified), investors will praise them.
I fully believe Microsoft is trying to leverage AI and bring in enough talent that they won't need to contract out development; they'll create internal departments and assign development work for each game internally, so those divisions can just bounce between work for a dozen different games being pushed out by a dozen different internal teams.
So no individual studios, just Microsoft.
 
DukenukemX said:
Microsoft will ignore this because they're benefiting investors. You're thinking 3 years down the road while Microsoft thinks quarterly.
Click to expand...
Microsoft can afford to ignore this in the short term, but Dell, HP, Lenovo, and others can't.
That may be fine for O365 and the data centers, but it would not be good for Windows.
Short-term, that may not be an issue, but if Microsoft keeps burning bridges, things will shift; if they burn too many, they may not have any roads left to backtrack on.

I'm sure they have people there that realize this, big question is are they high enough up the ladder to make a change or not, because alternatives are coming.
 
Lakados said:
Xbox may be dead or at least dying, but Microsoft has spent billions trying to build up its publishing capabilities and its IP pools. They will shed the dead weight and try to turn their platform into the Netflix of games.
Click to expand...
Netflix of games doesn't work for GamePass, and we've seen it play out badly multiple times. Hi-Fi Rush was a quality game but it was on gamepass and it's not the kind of game you'll play twice so nobody bought it. Doom Dark Ages was also on GamePass, and it's also another game that you won't play twice. The question comes down to does Microsoft want $70 for a game or $15. The answer is clearly $300 million.
If they can keep their staff working 24/7, churning out multiple 7/10 games in 1-2 years instead of 6+ while making those games available on Steam, PlayStation, Epic, and others, in addition to whatever they call their subscription service, they can call that a win.
Click to expand...
Except you'd turn out slop. Games are art and pushing developers to pump out games 24/7 would create slop 24/7 and nobody would play them. There's a reason why Hideo Kojima carries a lot of value. Just look at RARE.
I fully believe Microsoft is trying to leverage AI and bring in enough talent that they won't need to contract out development; they'll create internal departments and assign development work for each game internally, so those divisions can just bounce between work for a dozen different games being pushed out by a dozen different internal teams.
So no individual studios, just Microsoft.
Click to expand...
I wish Microsoft luck with that. Reality is that anyone with talent will leave and make their our studios, which will also eventually get bought out. It's a vicious cycle.
 
Lakados said:
Microsoft can afford to ignore this in the short term, but Dell, HP, Lenovo, and others can't.
Click to expand...
That there lies the problem because eventually OEM's may jump on Linux. They'll try to avoid such an idea because Linux does bring it's own set of problems, but if they can get a Linux distro to work trouble free for users then Windows is in trouble.
I'm sure they have people there that realize this, big question is are they high enough up the ladder to make a change or not, because alternatives are coming.
Click to expand...
I'd imagine there's a lot of hubris in Microsoft. You'd think there's people that realize this but I believe they think they know what's best for their customers.
 
DukenukemX said:
Netflix of games doesn't work for GamePass, and we've seen it play out badly multiple times. Hi-Fi Rush was a quality game but it was on gamepass and it's not the kind of game you'll play twice so nobody bought it. Doom Dark Ages was also on GamePass, and it's also another game that you won't play twice. The question comes down to does Microsoft want $70 for a game or $15. The answer is clearly $300 million.
Click to expand...
I mean Netflix, HBO, Disney, etc they all seem to be able to make this model work, so if it works for movies and TV, then I am sure you can make it work for games too. But it certainly doesn't work when it takes 400 million and 7 years to make a 6/10 title.
Take the new Fable as an example: no way that is selling the 7 million copies it needs to break even, even in a world without Game Pass. That is something they should have been able to bang out in 2 years, maybe 3.
But game studios have been captured by Hollywood; they are spending more time on motion capture and union voice actors creating movies that include a game than they are on games that have a story, it's not sustainable and I suspect that Microsoft sees that as clear as day.
Because if 7 years and 400 million nets you a solid 6/10, then something dramatically needs to change, and the answer isn't more time or larger budgets.
 
Lakados said:
I mean Netflix, HBO, Disney, etc they all seem to be able to make this model work, so if it works for movies and TV, then I am sure you can make it work for games too.
Click to expand...
It doesn't work unless the game is only good to play once, like most movies and TV shows. Good games tend to have replay value, but mediocre and bad games are barely playable once. Not to forget that movies tend to be sold for $25 or less on physical media, while a game today cost $70.
But it certainly doesn't work when it takes 400 million and 7 years to make a 6/10 title.
Click to expand...
It doesn't work when companies believe they're the only ones producing games. The reality is that just like modern media that a lot of it is democratized. People can make their own games now.

View: https://youtu.be/J1IgKgNbVyI?si=24CVYocu9hF1H90T
Take the new Fable as an example: no way that is selling the 7 million copies it needs to break even, even in a world without Game Pass. That is something they should have been able to bang out in 2 years, maybe 3.
But game studios have been captured by Hollywood; they are spending more time on motion capture and union voice actors creating movies that include a game than they are on games that have a story, it's not sustainable and I suspect that Microsoft sees that as clear as day.
Click to expand...
Because Hollywood is failing for the same reasons, because they want to manufacture media. Haven't you noticed that we're remastering games like Hollywood does reboots?
Because if 7 years and 400 million nets you a solid 6/10, then something dramatically needs to change, and the answer isn't more time or larger budgets.
Click to expand...
Look at From Software and Larian Studios where their games disrupted the industry. They're not publicly traded and therefore can focus more on making quality games. Microsoft's mistake is they think this can just be pumped out like bad software, but it can't. Mina is a good example where it's a very popular game for $20 that will make Yacht Club plenty of money. SilkSong sold millions and likely made three Australians very rich, while for Microsoft this wouldn't be enough money to get into Epstein Island 2.

Going back to Windows, the only reason Windows still exists as an OS is because of their game library. If Microsoft screws that up somehow, then MacOS has a shot in taking real market share. The other saving grace for Windows is that Apple's new M-series chips are not as good at gaming as AMD's, Intel's, and Nvidia's hardware. I have no idea what the performance of the M6 is like, but if it's anything close to what a Ryzen X3D and Nova Lake's Big Last Level Cache (bLLC) then Windows is in big trouble. As it stands even Linux running on X86 hardware is not as good as Windows in gaming performance. If Apple were to seriously invest in gaming both in hardware and software then Microsoft would again be in serious trouble.
 
NuclearNotebook has a late but extremely thorough technically-oriented review of the MacBook Neo, and they like it — with a nice retort to that supposed SSD drama in the comments.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQyG9OLpvmI

The comment:

Yes, we are aware of another channel's recent clickbait video on the Neo's SSD lifespan and recommend disregarding it as nonsense. Their Neo did not write 900GB of swap in 3 hours while browsing the web; third-party software is well known to overreport on SSD writes in Apple silicon Macs to the point of failing even the most rudimentary sanity check, a concept that seems lost on some content creators.

In short, the Neo will last a long time. Don't take "get scared" videos at face value.
 
Shoganai said:
They are. Have you ever used one?
Click to expand...
We've had this discussion before and the Neo has no cooling. It's so bad that people have guides on how to cool them.
b0k5vg.jpg
 
DukenukemX said:
We've had this discussion before and the Neo has no cooling. It's so bad that people have guides on how to cool them.
View attachment 824268
Click to expand...
No, it doesn't have any fans ... much like the MacBook Air ... and yet these things stay cooler than 90% of Windows laptops with fans. This is due to the passive cooling and massive efficiency of Apple's M-series chips. So no ... you haven't used any of Apple's fanless laptops.
 
DukenukemX said:
We've had this discussion before and the Neo has no cooling. It's so bad that people have guides on how to cool them.
Click to expand...
And if you watch the review I shared, you'll know that it doesn't matter in practice and that you're actually messing with the system by pushing higher voltages. Skip to around the 19-minute mark if you want to get into it.
 
jbltecnicspro said:
Wait, so it's worse than the MacBook Air? My M1 never gets hot, as far as I can tell. Ugh.
Click to expand...
The Neo draws 9W at most, more often 5W. And remember, the A18 Pro has already been in much tighter confines (the iPhone 16 Pro) without failing. It's wild that people will act like Apple didn't test the system under load... or that a $699 13-inch laptop would be used for long media encodes and intensive gaming.
 
Aurelius said:
The Neo draws 9W at most, more often 5W. And remember, the A18 Pro has already been in much tighter confines (the iPhone 16 Pro) without failing. It's wild that people will act like Apple didn't test the system under load... or that a $699 13-inch laptop would be used for long media encodes and intensive gaming.
Click to expand...
Diclaimer: happy owner of an M2 MacBook Air who's never wanted it to be more than it is.

And the Neo will attempt to do those things with two big cores and four little ones anyway. The math is pretty similar to what the Apple Silicon Airs do with passive cooling. That cooling is usually sufficient to allow a single big core to engage in sustained work without much throttling, and for all cores to manage in bursty work typical of light desktop workloads. Hooked up to a dock it will do a lot very effectively even if it's not a patch on the M2 Max Studio I snagged a couple of years back. But it is a great balance between power efficiency and short term capability. The A18 Pro chip is small and dissipates heat at least as well as the M2 in my experience. If I weren't unemployed I'd have snagged a Neo for my daughter's birthday without a second thought - she doesn't need a machine that can visualize seismic data in realtime, she just needs a basic computer. And it absolutely fits that bill better than any Windows laptop within a $400 difference that I've looked up.
 
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Shoganai said:
No, it doesn't have any fans ... much like the MacBook Air ...
Click to expand...
No heatsink either. Literally no cooling.
and yet these things stay cooler than 90% of Windows laptops with fans. This is due to the passive cooling and massive efficiency of Apple's M-series chips. So no ... you haven't used any of Apple's fanless laptops.
Click to expand...
Only in your imagination. Windows laptops with fans will outperform the Neo easily. Intel doesn't need Wildcat but a heatsink with a fan.

jbltecnicspro said:
Wait, so it's worse than the MacBook Air? My M1 never gets hot, as far as I can tell. Ugh.
Click to expand...
MackBook Air M1 or just regular Macbook? Apple still puts fans... in laptops they care about.
macbook pro m4 dual fans.jpg
Aurelius said:
And if you watch the review I shared, you'll know that it doesn't matter in practice and that you're actually messing with the system by pushing higher voltages. Skip to around the 19-minute mark if you want to get into it.
Click to expand...
And if you watched and remember the multiple videos where I show it that id does matter, then you'll know that the Neo dies in a heat death. You're all too much of a fanboys to admit this. Just Josh even points it couldn't even playback video smoothly... at 1/4 resolution.

neo can't playback video carl.jpg
 
DukenukemX said:
And if you watched and remember the multiple videos where I show it that id does matter, then you'll know that the Neo dies in a heat death. You're all too much of a fanboys to admit this. Just Josh even points it couldn't even playback video smoothly... at 1/4 resolution.
Click to expand...
I'd watched it well before you shared it (I'm subscribed to the channel). The video playback issues during editing would happen even if the Neo was ice-cold; Core Series 3 (Wildcat Lake) has the same issue.

A fan or heatsink won't suddenly turn the A18 Pro into an M-series chip. If you're serious about media editing, you're getting a step up from what Apple, Intel, and AMD offer in new systems around the $700 mark.
 
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DukenukemX said:
No heatsink either. Literally no cooling.

Only in your imagination. Windows laptops with fans will outperform the Neo easily. Intel doesn't need Wildcat but a heatsink with a fan.
View attachment 824326

MackBook Air M1 or just regular Macbook? Apple still puts fans... in laptops they care about.
View attachment 824331

And if you watched and remember the multiple videos where I show it that id does matter, then you'll know that the Neo dies in a heat death. You're all too much of a fanboys to admit this. Just Josh even points it couldn't even playback video smoothly... at 1/4 resolution.
View attachment 824333
View attachment 824337
Click to expand...
Apparently, the heat dissipation in the Neo is another cost-cutting measure from Apple, which is retarded. It doesn't have the very noticeable passive cooling that the MacBook Air line has. So you were correct. Maybe they'll keep the "liquid cooling" of the iPhone 17 and up for the next iteration. Having said that ... I think the issue with the playback has to do with an iPhone chip running full macOS. Because I currently have the 16 Pro Max and there really isn't anything I can't do on this phone graphically or with video editing. But now that this year Apple is completely gutting Intel code out of macOS and are now making macOS run on an iPhone, I have a feeling the Neo is going to perform a lot better in a few months. It won't fix the lack of proper heat dissipation, but I'm sure it'll help with performance.
 
DukenukemX said:
No heatsink either. Literally no cooling.

Only in your imagination. Windows laptops with fans will outperform the Neo easily. Intel doesn't need Wildcat but a heatsink with a fan.
View attachment 824326

MackBook Air M1 or just regular Macbook? Apple still puts fans... in laptops they care about.
View attachment 824331

And if you watched and remember the multiple videos where I show it that id does matter, then you'll know that the Neo dies in a heat death. You're all too much of a fanboys to admit this. Just Josh even points it couldn't even playback video smoothly... at 1/4 resolution.
View attachment 824333
View attachment 824337
Click to expand...
Air. I don't need it to be a cruncher. I got a hell of a deal on it. 16GB / 512GB SSD.
 
One nice thing that happened in Windows land this week: Dell released a completely redesigned 14S laptop.

dell-14s-hands-on-13-1.jpeg


This is honestly the real answer to the MacBook Neo, not the XPS 13. If I'm going to get a Core Series 3 chip and 8GB of base RAM, I want it for a lower price than the XPS and with Neo-style colors; the lower-res screen is a decent tradeoff, especially if the build quality holds up as promised. It's actually replacing the old "Dell 14 Laptop" as the outgoing 14S is a pricier machine with the Core Ultra Series 3.

Also: I wish this 14S existed when I was going to university. My first laptop was a clunker with a 1GHz Celeron, a terrible 13-inch screen, way too much bulk (7lbs, 1.7in thick) and a battery that could barely survive a three-hour lecture. This would've kept me happy through my entire program.
 
Aurelius said:
I'd watched it well before you shared it (I'm subscribed to the channel). The video playback issues during editing would happen even if the Neo was ice-cold; Core Series 3 (Wildcat Lake) has the same issue.
Click to expand...
The other laptop wasn't as bad, but it was still stuttery. Don't remember if it was a Wildcat Lake based chip?
A fan or heatsink won't suddenly turn the A18 Pro into an M-series chip. If you're serious about media editing, you're getting a step up from what Apple, Intel, and AMD offer in new systems around the $700 mark.
Click to expand...
The other Windows laptops could do editing much quicker. Again, I have to remind you this.

Shoganai said:
Apparently, the heat dissipation in the Neo is another cost-cutting measure from Apple, which is retarded.
Click to expand...
Isn't worth the 50 cents savings for a hunk of aluminum.
It doesn't have the very noticeable passive cooling that the MacBook Air line has.
Click to expand...
Macbook Air has a heatsink but no fan. And no, Apple isn't doing you a favor by not having a fan. You know it's a problem when many people have cooling mods for the Macbook Air's. It's Apple's method of limiting performance for what could potentially be a much faster laptop.

View: https://youtu.be/kUFsYEa0pI8?si=CIFIBrKHX4AqkCjr

View: https://youtu.be/ajemTllmBt0?si=Az84e456fS4XG-nx
Having said that ... I think the issue with the playback has to do with an iPhone chip running full macOS. Because I currently have the 16 Pro Max and there really isn't anything I can't do on this phone graphically or with video editing.
Click to expand...
From what I've read this even happens in Safari with the Neo, and cooling is the problem. The thermal pad mod is popular.
But now that this year Apple is completely gutting Intel code out of macOS and are now making macOS run on an iPhone, I have a feeling the Neo is going to perform a lot better in a few months. It won't fix the lack of proper heat dissipation, but I'm sure it'll help with performance.
Click to expand...
Wishful thinking.
Aurelius said:
One nice thing that happened in Windows land this week: Dell released a completely redesigned 14S laptop.

View attachment 824348

This is honestly the real answer to the MacBook Neo, not the XPS 13. If I'm going to get a Core Series 3 chip and 8GB of base RAM, I want it for a lower price than the XPS and with Neo-style colors; the lower-res screen is a decent tradeoff, especially if the build quality holds up as promised. It's actually replacing the old "Dell 14 Laptop" as the outgoing 14S is a pricier machine with the Core Ultra Series 3.

Also: I wish this 14S existed when I was going to university. My first laptop was a clunker with a 1GHz Celeron, a terrible 13-inch screen, way too much bulk (7lbs, 1.7in thick) and a battery that could barely survive a three-hour lecture. This would've kept me happy through my entire program.
Click to expand...
I wouldn't touch anything with Intel when AMD is still better. Especially when these "cheap" laptops are also coming with 8GB of ram. Intel still commands a higher price for some reason. Too bad all the alternatives to the Neo seem to focus on Intel.
 
If memory serves the A18 Pro has an additional impediment to cooling from the RAM effectively being stacked atop the CPU because of how it’s packaged. The throttling is probably managed pretty well given those constraints - it just isn’t meant to be a sustained high performance solution. It’s designed to persevere in passively cooled environments less forgiving than a Neo.

Also editing video with 8GB RAM in 2026 would be a choice.
 
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DukenukemX said:
I wouldn't touch anything with Intel when AMD is still better. Especially when these "cheap" laptops are also coming with 8GB of ram. Intel still commands a higher price for some reason. Too bad all the alternatives to the Neo seem to focus on Intel.
Click to expand...
The comparable Ryzen chips aren't that much faster in this price class. With that said, it's a good thing the Dell 14S has a 16GB RAM option.

Apple is still going to make inroads here. It has the design, 8GB RAM handling, and simple brand cachet in its favor. That and I want to see if Intel can follow Wildcat Lake with a meaningful upgrade, since the Neo is likely to get much faster with the A19 Pro revision.
 
Aurelius said:
The comparable Ryzen chips aren't that much faster in this price class. With that said, it's a good thing the Dell 14S has a 16GB RAM option.
Click to expand...
I favor the GPU performance of Ryzen more so than Intel. Mostly because I use Linux and Intel still has more work to get their GPU performance to match that of AMD in Linux.
Apple is still going to make inroads here. It has the design, 8GB RAM handling, and simple brand cachet in its favor. That and I want to see if Intel can follow Wildcat Lake with a meaningful upgrade, since the Neo is likely to get much faster with the A19 Pro revision.
Click to expand...
Hopefully the A19 Pro has a heatsink.
 
DukenukemX said:
I favor the GPU performance of Ryzen more so than Intel. Mostly because I use Linux and Intel still has more work to get their GPU performance to match that of AMD in Linux.

Hopefully the A19 Pro has a heatsink.
Click to expand...
I don't think Dell is too fazed. It's an entry-level laptop, after all. With that said, the IdeaPad Vibe has an AMD flavor if you want a Linux-friendly MacBook Neo challenger.

I keep wondering if Apple will use a vapor chamber in the A19 Pro-based Neo simply because the iPhone 17 Pro had one. With that said, Apple put the chamber in because a phone is a small enclosure; it might not need more aggressive cooling (or any at all) in the Neo.
 
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