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LG TVs caught spying even when offline or on standby

vegeta535 said:
But are they actually doing it?
Click to expand...
Wendel from Level1Techs is involved and I have more faith in him.
Lakados said:
A small piece of cardboard and electrical tape will handle it and won't void the warranty.

The microphones aren't that good, and the hole you need to cover up is only a few mm in diameter.
Click to expand...
Gamers Nexus video shows the microphones are actually really good. Good enough to hear people talking from another room. Electrical tape might muffle it enough to prevent it from hearing at a distance.

The solution we need is a way to replace the firmware so it doesn't phone home. Replace it with an open source Android TV OS. TV manufacturers will catch on and prevent this, which means we'll have to depend on China making boards that we can pop into TV's and replace the OEM boards with their OS. Or ya know, don't connect it to Wifi and use an external Android TV box. I don't recommend FireSticks anymore since Amazon is now preventing people from side loading apps. The problem with Android TV boxes is there's a minefield of shit out there.
 
DukenukemX said:
Wendel from Level1Techs is involved and I have more faith in him.

Gamers Nexus video shows the microphones are actually really good. Good enough to hear people talking from another room. Electrical tape might muffle it enough to prevent it from hearing at a distance.

The solution we need is a way to replace the firmware so it doesn't phone home. Replace it with an open source Android TV OS. TV manufacturers will catch on and prevent this, which means we'll have to depend on China making boards that we can pop into TV's and replace the OEM boards with their OS. Or ya know, don't connect it to Wifi and use an external Android TV box. I don't recommend FireSticks anymore since Amazon is now preventing people from side loading apps. The problem with Android TV boxes is there's a minefield of shit out there.
Click to expand...
They are good when clear, but like your phones mic a little pocket lint and nobody can understand a damned word you say. They are easy to jam up.

I’ve gone back to Apple TV boxes, there’s no guesswork involved, I’ve dealt with too many no name Android boxes that come pre bundled with all manner of spyware.
 
Lakados said:
They are good when clear, but like your phones mic a little pocket lint and nobody can understand a damned word you say. They are easy to jam up.

I’ve gone back to Apple TV boxes, there’s no guesswork involved, I’ve dealt with too many no name Android boxes that come pre bundled with all manner of spyware.
Click to expand...
I might try jamming up the mics with stuff. I already have a few Apple TVs. The audio syncs well wirelessly with my Mac which I run all my audio through (PC as well) into a good pair of headphones. My only issue with Apple TVs is the current poor AV1 support which should get fixed when a new Apple TV releases. (I watch a lot of YouTube).
 
Lakados said:
OK hear me out.
We all band together and create the brand [H] Appliances.

They are the dumbest appliances on the market; everything is a physical switch, a mechanical timer. No unnecessary electronics for anything; everything from Washers to Toasters and TVs for shits and giggles. No built-in computers, no Wifi, no Bluetooth, no touch screens, just the most bare ass basic thing that will get the job done.
Click to expand...

Except we do need the option to overclock them!
 
MaZa said:
Problem is that even if you never connect it to the internet, it will still try to send "telemetry" via possible open Wifi networks near you.

If I understood correctly, it is probably possible for them to form temporary ad hoc connections too. You may not have the device connected to the internet but your neighbours LG TV probably is and therefore can bypass the need for an open wifi network completely. Your neighbours TV delivers the "telemetry" package for you.
Click to expand...

If they're actually doing that then it is likely highly illegal. I'd need a higher burden of proof on something like that. I mean, my TV piggy backing on my neighbours WiFi without permission? That's a risky proposition to get some Ad data because effectively you're instructing your product to bypass security on a WiFi network they haven't been given permission to be on. Granted, none of my TV's are on the network and will never be.
 
Arent we accepting these EUL's anyway on the TV's? I can't remember if I accepted one on my G3, but I haven't connected it to the Internet at all, and updated the firmware with a USB stick.
 
Ididar said:
If they're actually doing that then it is likely highly illegal. I'd need a higher burden of proof on something like that. I mean, my TV piggy backing on my neighbours WiFi without permission? That's a risky proposition to get some Ad data because effectively you're instructing your product to bypass security on a WiFi network they haven't been given permission to be on. Granted, none of my TV's are on the network and will never be.
Click to expand...

Open network is an open network. If you do not have it password protected, then all bets are off. Regarding the ad hoc connection, I do not know if they do that. They do keep on scanning on nearby devices though.
 
MaZa said:
Open network is an open network. If you do not have it password protected, then all bets are off. Regarding the ad hoc connection, I do not know if they do that. They do keep on scanning on nearby devices though.
Click to expand...

That's fair about open networks. But, as a consumer if I bought the TV and didn't set it up on my WiFi I have a reasonable expectation that the TV isn't sending anything out. If the TV is connecting to an open network and sending the data? That's a problem for the company as well because I doubt they're telling consumers that their TV might piggy back on your neighbours open WiFi and start sending stuff about you through it. That would be akin to taping over the camera or microphone and then finding out later that the company buried a small camera or microphone someplace else that isn't obvious. Definitely would, I suspect, result in some money paid out on a lawsuit.
 
Ididar said:
That's fair about open networks. But, as a consumer if I bought the TV and didn't set it up on my WiFi I have a reasonable expectation that the TV isn't sending anything out. If the TV is connecting to an open network and sending the data? That's a problem for the company as well because I doubt they're telling consumers that their TV might piggy back on your neighbours open WiFi and start sending stuff about you through it. That would be akin to taping over the camera or microphone and then finding out later that the company buried a small camera or microphone someplace else that isn't obvious. Definitely would, I suspect, result in some money paid out on a lawsuit.
Click to expand...

Funny thing you mention that. Many TVs have microphone and they also may have a physical switch to disable the said microphone but surprise surprise, it only applies to that particular microphone. It is not the only one. 😁 GN does discuss this with Wendell in the video.
 
Lakados said:
They are good when clear, but like your phones mic a little pocket lint and nobody can understand a damned word you say. They are easy to jam up.

I’ve gone back to Apple TV boxes, there’s no guesswork involved, I’ve dealt with too many no name Android boxes that come pre bundled with all manner of spyware.
Click to expand...
Apple TV doesn't let you sideload apps like SmartTube. Finding a good Android TV box is a matter of doing some research. Not sure why people consider Apple TV boxes? I would say get an Nvidia Shield but you can't find those anymore.

View: https://youtu.be/sdLnieL90d0?si=AxXJLgUZ28tVJLob
MaZa said:
Funny thing you mention that. Many TVs have microphone and they also may have a physical switch to disable the said microphone but surprise surprise, it only applies to that particular microphone. It is not the only one. 😁 GN does discuss this with Wendell in the video.
Click to expand...
The other option is to go in the box and cut the wires to the microphone or just rip it off the circuit board. Is there a use for it besides data collection?
 
When I have time I'll watch the complete video, because this is one of those things where the particulars matter; as others have been discussing hypothetical capability vs active implementation. In the long term, the only solution to this sort of thing is going to be regulatory. Our privacy laws are literally 30 years out of date and things will continue to get worse unless this is reversed, replaced with comprehensive privacy laws for natural (as opposed to corporate, fictitious) persons. Unfortunately, many of the largest corporate interests have exploited the lack of (or active removal of) regulations to their great profit and thus have a vested interest in preventing any change to the status quo where digital privacy is nearly non-existent; surveillance capitalism is a trillion dollar industry with its tendrils spread throughout.

While short term instances like technical fixes and the like are good options to have, there's going to be an increasing burden to maintain them in the face of a society that does not; many are ignorant, some are actively contemptuous and take up the "nothing to hide, nothing to fear" or "if X group doesn't like it, it must be good" viewpoints. My networks may be encrypted, but I can't very well control if neighbors are not, or someone has one of those Amazon Ring or Comcast Xfinity network dervicess, for instance. There is also the issue of the technical capability and knowledge necessary to counteract the surveillance hardware or software, as well as how much functionality must be compromised in order to negate it. Flashing a custom ROM that none the less allows the item's full feature set is very different from either needing in depth hardware modification or giving up multiple features in order to hopefully confound the offending functionality. All in all it makes for scrambling up a steeper and steeper hill, especially when alternate options are limited. This is not something that is likely to be solved by "the market" (which is usually the case with any sort of invasive or predatory action that is financially rewarding in the current legal/regulatory situation). LG OLEDs in the latest generations have offered some of the best panels to the point they've been reliably used as monitors, but it is not like users have the choice to simply buy a "monitor focused " panel that's equivalent on size, brightness etc.

Its important to note we should not have to dig out microphones or castrate hardware we buy in order to have some assurance its not acting in a hostile manner towards its users. We should be able to have microphones embedded in devices, with both an option to turn them off as well as the ability to make use of them without fear that it will surrepticiously record, find its way online the moment it finds an open network, and transmit what it learned without permission. When these issues arise there's sometimes a discussion that we need to return to "dumb" technology or cut out features that some consider superflous, but I think that's a less desirable path that gives the very people who created the problems of surveillance capitalism an opportunity to make even more money by now selling solutions! Proprietary firmwares with microphones that can't be verifiably turned off and/or report what they hear to their masters by any means available, arent' some natural technological progression necessity, they're a choice by hardware manufacturers to create alternate revenue and information gathering streams absent regulations to prevent it. That's what we need to solve, ensuring that electronics serve the wills of those who purchase or build them rather than separate platform owners who see predatory methodology as their fiscal duty.
 
MaZa said:
Funny thing you mention that. Many TVs have microphone and they also may have a physical switch to disable the said microphone but surprise surprise, it only applies to that particular microphone. It is not the only one. 😁 GN does discuss this with Wendell in the video.
Click to expand...

See, that's the sort of thing that would definitely cause them to lose a lawsuit. If people turn off a microphone then they expect audio recording to be off. Burying something in an EULA is not going to protect the manufacturer from deceptive practices lawsuits. I mean, EULA's have a horrible track record in courts anyway but once you make a switch to turn something off you better be turning it off or a lawsuit won't go your way assuming someone has the patience and resources to drag it through courts.
 
SticKx911 said:
I assumed it was all. I typically prefer LG hardware, but I might reconsider on my next tv if there's one out there that doesn't do stupid things like this.

My last tv bought less than a year ago was like $150 delivered for a nice 48" set. They gotta make money somewhere so I find it hard to hate them too much at that price point.
Click to expand...

You could probably still get it if you like it, but then you have to cover the microphone with tape and never connect it to the internet.
 
cthulhuiscool said:
How does the security of things like Amazon Fire sticks compare? My mom insists on having all the dumb apps on her Roku tv (which I knew was spyware the second I set it up and and it asked what room it's in) so ideally there is a normie friendly way to get them while leaving the tv off the network. Probably nothing worth e-espionaging at her house, but who knows my uncle got his accounts hacked into after making the password to his *smart* house wifi "Password1"
Click to expand...

Fire sticks don't have an always listening microphone on board, to my knowledge. They do have one on the remote, but you can cover it with tape if you want to. The LG TV had a microphone that was always on, even when you turned it off, and would store speech when offline to send to servers upon reconnecting to the internet. That's a whole different league of insane.
 
We could easily have open source software/hardware with no spying with an easy to use instantaneous UI that supports all the streaming apps if it wasn't for DRM.
 
sharknice said:
We could easily have open source software/hardware with no spying with an easy to use instantaneous UI that supports all the streaming apps if it wasn't for DRM.
Click to expand...
Also doesn't help that it is illegal to circumvent DRM.
 
sharknice said:
We could easily have open source software/hardware with no spying with an easy to use instantaneous UI that supports all the streaming apps if it wasn't for DRM.
Click to expand...
obs said:
Also doesn't help that it is illegal to circumvent DRM.
Click to expand...
It wasn't that long ago that some forms of DRM could be done with FOSS encryption or at very least a binary blob that could plug into a FOSS ecosystem in a way it became very easy to monitor if it was doing something it shouldn't be. I remember Firefox had a module for playing DRM'd content for awhile there, not sure if that's till a thing.
As far as the legality, I think sooner or later we'll end up with another court test of the tentative legality to break DRM if it is necessary to make use of the media in an approved legal way, such as format shifting. Everything from the DeCSS decision to the legality of more recent video game console emulators (Nintendo Switch comes to mind, but pretty much everything the past couple of generations since they stopped simply having an unencrypted BIOS you could dump and use to play legally) is based on this concept because you can't play your legally purchased content elsewhere without breaking their DRM
 
Last edited:
DukenukemX said:
Apple TV doesn't let you sideload apps like SmartTube. Finding a good Android TV box is a matter of doing some research. Not sure why people consider Apple TV boxes? I would say get an Nvidia Shield but you can't find those anymore.

View: https://youtu.be/sdLnieL90d0?si=AxXJLgUZ28tVJLob

The other option is to go in the box and cut the wires to the microphone or just rip it off the circuit board. Is there a use for it besides data collection?
Click to expand...

Yeah but that ONN box features an always on far field microphone, the very thing this thread is calling out…
And has partnerships with Roku, Walmart, and a few others to sniff out data in your home and on your network.
 
I have several NEC P553 commercial 55" TVs that are looking better everyday
Built like tanks, bright, vibrant, and should last forever
 
Last edited:
DukenukemX said:
Apple TV doesn't let you sideload apps like SmartTube. Finding a good Android TV box is a matter of doing some research. Not sure why people consider Apple TV boxes?
Click to expand...

If you are happy with the apps provided an Apple TV is a very slick device. In some cases the IOS apps are better than the Android apps. There is significant CPU horsepower.

The major annoyance I experience is that it asks for the iTunes password way too often.
 
WhoBeDaPlaya said:
I have several NEC P553 commercial 55" TVs that are looking better everyday
Built like tanks, bright, vibrant, and should last forever
Click to expand...
Nice. If they still make them, buy a spare main board to have on hand and they probably will. Power surges taking that out is probably the only thing that can die and "commercial" typically implies repairable. As long as they still make parts.
 
RanceJustice said:
When I have time I'll watch the complete video, because this is one of those things where the particulars matter; as others have been discussing hypothetical capability vs active implementation. In the long term, the only solution to this sort of thing is going to be regulatory. Our privacy laws are literally 30 years out of date and things will continue to get worse unless this is reversed, replaced with comprehensive privacy laws for natural (as opposed to corporate, fictitious) persons. Unfortunately, many of the largest corporate interests have exploited the lack of (or active removal of) regulations to their great profit and thus have a vested interest in preventing any change to the status quo where digital privacy is nearly non-existent; surveillance capitalism is a trillion dollar industry with its tendrils spread throughout.
Click to expand...
With the current governments both in the EU and USA we are better off doing it ourselves. Not saying don't try, but we depend on people voting for the right representatives to make sure our privacy and freedoms are intact. Two years ago I never thought we'd have this amount of laws going against people, and here we are. I also thought the EU wouldn't be worse, and yet here we are.
There is also the issue of the technical capability and knowledge necessary to counteract the surveillance hardware or software, as well as how much functionality must be compromised in order to negate it. Flashing a custom ROM that none the less allows the item's full feature set is very different from either needing in depth hardware modification or giving up multiple features in order to hopefully confound the offending functionality. All in all it makes for scrambling up a steeper and steeper hill, especially when alternate options are limited. This is not something that is likely to be solved by "the market" (which is usually the case with any sort of invasive or predatory action that is financially rewarding in the current legal/regulatory situation). LG OLEDs in the latest generations have offered some of the best panels to the point they've been reliably used as monitors, but it is not like users have the choice to simply buy a "monitor focused " panel that's equivalent on size, brightness etc.
Click to expand...
Knowledge is power and skills are above all. We may have no way to force companies to stop recording us without intervention. If flashing doesn't work then replace the circuit board. Redirect traffic with a router.
Its important to note we should not have to dig out microphones or castrate hardware we buy in order to have some assurance its not acting in a hostile manner towards its users. We should be able to have microphones embedded in devices, with both an option to turn them off as well as the ability to make use of them without fear that it will surrepticiously record, find its way online the moment it finds an open network, and transmit what it learned without permission. When these issues arise there's sometimes a discussion that we need to return to "dumb" technology or cut out features that some consider superflous, but I think that's a less desirable path that gives the very people who created the problems of surveillance capitalism an opportunity to make even more money by now selling solutions! Proprietary firmwares with microphones that can't be verifiably turned off and/or report what they hear to their masters by any means available, arent' some natural technological progression necessity, they're a choice by hardware manufacturers to create alternate revenue and information gathering streams absent regulations to prevent it. That's what we need to solve, ensuring that electronics serve the wills of those who purchase or build them rather than separate platform owners who see predatory methodology as their fiscal duty.
Click to expand...
The ultimate solution is to force manufacturers to release their source code, but that'll never happen. Vote carefully and hope that enough people are also doing the same.
obs said:
Also doesn't help that it is illegal to circumvent DRM.
Click to expand...
I doubt DRM applies here.
Lakados said:
Yeah but that ONN box features an always on far field microphone, the very thing this thread is calling out…
And has partnerships with Roku, Walmart, and a few others to sniff out data in your home and on your network.
Click to expand...
You can always put in custom firmware, if you buy the right box. My opinion is to just use a PC as that's what I do. I can even run Android apps through WayDroid, but I haven't had a reason to do so. Even a cheap Mac Mini would still be better because you can adblock.


View: https://youtu.be/HmXocbV-_yU?si=vMpMkXrl5PlKlqo1
 
DukenukemX said:
You can always put in custom firmware, if you buy the right box. My opinion is to just use a PC as that's what I do. I can even run Android apps through WayDroid, but I haven't had a reason to do so. Even a cheap Mac Mini would still be better because you can adblock.
Click to expand...

I'm seriously considering ditching all app based stuff and go small PC's but the remote is still the blocking issue. The ancient 40" TV in the bedroom has a Roku in it right now. The living room is a PC with a mouse on the end table so that works fine. The bedroom is the problem. Not using a mouse in bed to launch a browser session for viewing stuff. I would love a small linux-based media device that has a remote. I'm sure I can make it work by cobbling together a bunch of stuff but I just don't have the interest to do it all. Too many other projects on the go right now to jump into it.
 
Mini pc + linux = done

Its funny because I am literally building my Steam Machine today.

71eC20mTwTL._SY500_.jpg
 
I am fine with 1080P. If I want all the bells and whistles I pick out a movie from one of my 800 blu rays.
 
Ididar said:
I'm seriously considering ditching all app based stuff and go small PC's but the remote is still the blocking issue. The ancient 40" TV in the bedroom has a Roku in it right now. The living room is a PC with a mouse on the end table so that works fine. The bedroom is the problem. Not using a mouse in bed to launch a browser session for viewing stuff. I would love a small linux-based media device that has a remote. I'm sure I can make it work by cobbling together a bunch of stuff but I just don't have the interest to do it all. Too many other projects on the go right now to jump into it.
Click to expand...
I don't do streaming service content, but I do use kodi and a rosewill media center IR remote to select media from my digital library via a tiny morefine amd mini pc. It also has proven useful at reconverting younger kid cartoons that are hardly watched anymore in the library to h265 compression (shrinks to 30~40% of original). It takes 4 hours per 30 minute show, but it's low wattage (15~20w), doesn't interfere with its other media PC functions and doesn't tie up my other PC's. Also I'm in no hurry and generally batch convert one series at a time with it. Everything including 4k UHD video can be steamed over the 2.5g wired network from the NAS box or I can keep popular shows on the local machine storage so they are available if I take the mini PC somewhere else (ir remote + mini PC + power cord + HDMI cable). I configured the account to auto login with very restricted privileges and load Kodi on startup. So no keyboard or mouse is required, but if I needed one for some reason, I have an flat handheld keyboard trackpad rf remote control device with a rechargeable battery that would be easy to pack just in case something goes wrong and I need a keyboard device to fix .

Other things that can be used with applications like kodi include wireless Xbox controllers or other similar gear.


I believe there is also a way to setup an IR repeater to your other system if you are streaming content from that other room PC to your bedroom.
 
Ididar said:
I'm seriously considering ditching all app based stuff and go small PC's but the remote is still the blocking issue. The ancient 40" TV in the bedroom has a Roku in it right now. The living room is a PC with a mouse on the end table so that works fine. The bedroom is the problem. Not using a mouse in bed to launch a browser session for viewing stuff. I would love a small linux-based media device that has a remote. I'm sure I can make it work by cobbling together a bunch of stuff but I just don't have the interest to do it all. Too many other projects on the go right now to jump into it.
Click to expand...

You could try something like this

https://share.google/bLcbiXISEdDDSOuWH
 
We know this would be LG's response, even with all the proof, the change in their ToC's..They will now either try to change it internally and push it out with out anyone noticing or just keep trying to spin it..

https://www.tomshardware.com/tech-i...ation-claims-216-000-000-spy-tvs-record-audio

LG strongly denies TV spying claims, says tracking and snooping concerns 'not true' — online investigation claims 216,000,000 TVs spy and record audio​

News
ByStephen Warwick



In a statement to Tom's Hardware, TV manufacturer LG has strongly denied recent claims that its smart TVs constantly log and upload data, record audio while in standby, while confirming they scan local area networks for other devices, a feature common in smart TVs and media devices. The statement follows an investigation published online by Gamers Nexus, which claims LG is operating "216,000,000" spy TVs.
Earlier this week, Gamers Nexus published a video on YouTube claiming that LG smart TVs have several security and privacy concerns. The two-hour video claims, among other things, that LG's smart TVs constantly log and upload user data, even when offline or in standby mode. The TVs were also purported to be found scanning Wi-Fi networks, recording audio logs, and sampling inputs for audio and video to identify what users were watching.
The testing was done in collaboration with two security researchers, MrBruh and uturn, and includes packet capture and firmware analysis. The TVs were reportedly seen identifying other devices on local networks, including phones, printers, and more. Perhaps the most significant claim regards the capturing of audio through TV microphones, even when the devices were off, with the report claiming the TVs stored data when offline for retrieval later on.
"The claims made in the recently published video are not true," LG told Tom's Hardware in a statement. "LG TVs process voice data only when the voice button on the remote control is pressed and held, or when a wake word such as 'Hi LG' is recognized after the user has activated the Far-Field voice recognition feature."
LG went on to say that beyond the aforementioned instances, "the TVs do not collect or record ambient conversations." The company further stated that if the wake word is not recognized, then no voice data is transmitted from the TV to the server, and said audio processing for the wake word is done on-device.
Click to expand...
 
sharknice said:
The streaming apps don't even allow you to do 4k or surround sound on linux.
Click to expand...
Yeah Linux doesn’t make HDCP easy, Firefox and Chromium doesn’t support it properly and AMD opensource support for it gets…. Interesting.
You can supposedly do it with the Nvidia Proprietary when paired with a distro using Kernel 7.4 and up but it’s a grab bag.
 
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