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Pentagon Blacklist Hits China AI Giants Alibaba, Baidu, and Unitree

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philb2

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Ford CEO test drove a BYD Seagull, and said he was humbled by how good it was (at least for the price of $8,000). I expected a huge tariff, but they're going for a full ban.
 
If you wonder why prices aren't going down then look no further. We keep banning cheaper products from other countries and expect prices to somehow go down? What's interesting is that Alibaba’s Qwen is now doing better than OpenAI and Gemini. Look at what a dude brought from China to Americas got talent?


View: https://youtu.be/Zj2GL3dOQWE?si=YGhJZTk1UpEXr-7B
 
I haven't been following this but I thought BYD didn't make cars that met American safety standards? Obviously, that's something that can be done, but if they want to actually sell cars here, shouldn't they have already done so?
 
1_rick said:
I haven't been following this but I thought BYD didn't make cars that met American safety standards? Obviously, that's something that can be done, but if they want to actually sell cars here, shouldn't they have already done so?
Click to expand...
They're sold in the UK and EU. EU certifies via independent third parties while the US requires registering with NHTSA (part of the department of transportation).
 
stuffmonger said:
They're sold in the UK and EU. EU certifies via independent third parties while the US requires registering with NHTSA (part of the department of transportation).
Click to expand...
Ah, so was the Ford CEO talking about EU/UK BYD cars, then?
 
1_rick said:
Ah, so was the Ford CEO talking about EU/UK BYD cars, then?
Click to expand...
He imported a Xiaomi SU7 from China, and drove it for 6 months personally in the US. Not much info on how he tested BYD cars. The Xiaomi car is $50K, so it was $100K with the tariffs. He loved it, but he's far more worried about BYD, which aren't as nice, but much cheaper.
 
1_rick said:
I haven't been following this but I thought BYD didn't make cars that met American safety standards? Obviously, that's something that can be done, but if they want to actually sell cars here, shouldn't they have already done so?
Click to expand...
It has nothing to do with safety.
 
stuffmonger said:
Ford CEO test drove a BYD Seagull, and said he was humbled by how good it was (at least for the price of $8,000). I expected a huge tariff, but they're going for a full ban.
Click to expand...
I would like to see the article on your claim of Ford's CEO stating as such.
BYD sells garbage that breaks down extremely fast and their batteries are hot garbage, literally.

Like or dislike serpentza, he does have the receipts (video), which many others have widely documented in the last few years as well:


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzRQjdOK3fI

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mG-eJDtySU8

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wvyb9Mp69ew

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SEfwoqKRU8

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKa8mVOe5so


DukenukemX said:
If you wonder why prices aren't going down then look no further. We keep banning cheaper products from other countries and expect prices to somehow go down? What's interesting is that Alibaba’s Qwen is now doing better than OpenAI and Gemini. Look at what a dude brought from China to Americas got talent?


View: https://youtu.be/Zj2GL3dOQWE?si=YGhJZTk1UpEXr-7B
Click to expand...

Their robots all run scripts and run on Raspberry Pi and other SBCs with zero AI acceleration, meaning CPU-only.
There is nothing impressive about their jank ass robots, and a scripted dance isn't going to sell squat, not to mention I have built robots myself with Raspberry Pi's and Arduino controllers that can run very similar scripts.

Looks amazing, but it's just a script with a preset-macros that perform the "dance moves".
There are robotics that date back to the 1970s that can, and have, literally done this.

China does not have a Boston Dynamics equivalent, and all of their robotics technology is less than great.
Really not trying to dunk on China as this has nothing to do with their citizens and more so that it has everything to do with the CCP.

Also, you want a cool Chinese mech, here you go! :borg::aborg:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWOyUMJWptc
 
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The thermal runaway problem isn't unique to BYD's batteries. CATL or Tesla designs are prone to fires too. The US consumer base is rejecting big batteries, and buying hybrids instead. So Ford's bigger competitor is Toyota.

Humanoid robot demos being fake is an open secret. Boston Dynamics has stabilization, but it's still not very robust. They lost their defense contract a few years ago.
 
Red Falcon said:
BYD sells garbage that breaks down extremely fast and their batteries are hot garbage, literally.
Click to expand...
I mean, it was a Chinese company that came up with a "prototype" system to deal with car batteries on fire...by forcibly ejecting them out the side. I do have to admit, that would be hilarious to watch happen in traffic...for about 2 seconds. Then it would look like the start of a zombie movie.
 
Red Falcon said:
Their robots all run scripts and run on Raspberry Pi and other SBCs with zero AI acceleration, meaning CPU-only.
There is nothing impressive about their jank ass robots, and a scripted dance isn't going to sell squat, not to mention I have built robots myself with Raspberry Pi's and Arduino controllers that can run very similar scripts.

Looks amazing, but it's just a script with a preset-macros that perform the "dance moves".
There are robotics that date back to the 1970s that can, and have, literally done this.

China does not have a Boston Dynamics equivalent, and all of their robotics technology is less than great.
Really not trying to dunk on China as this has nothing to do with their citizens and more so that it has everything to do with the CCP.

Also, you want a cool Chinese mech, here you go! :borg::aborg:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oWOyUMJWptc
Click to expand...

The robots are $15k, which is cheap compared to Elon Musks robots that needed someone to pilot them. If they did run a RPI or equivalent, then that's even more impressive. It's no Boston Dynamics but I don't think any of us can afford one either. At least the Chinese robots have some semblance of affordability, assuming our government doesn't just ban or tariff them to oblivion.

Going back to cars, we do need Chinese cars in the west. The car market is not doing well.

View: https://youtu.be/mUBBqAjVuco?si=8dCaUSQiUtau5x44

View: https://youtu.be/5Jxt75wACo4?si=bpeC_HaFLDh_t0aT

There's a reason I took my uncle's 02 Audi A4 and fixed it to drive it. Besides that I don't need to make insane payments, I also get Android Auto and Apple car play because this car takes a standard 2din stereo, which I put one running Android and installed a reverse camera. But now new cars come with enough surveillance in them that the data will get sold to insurance companies to increase premiums, which has happened. As much as we'd like to fear China doing this, we see American car companies already doing this and even being taken to court over this. We're not benefiting from banning Chinese products.
 
We don't need Chinese cars, we need cheaper cars. Chinese cars just happen to be cheaper. If all the current brands fail, I'm okay with that (but I doubt it will happen, even without bailouts). People can start walking, or get a bike, and eventually regulation and business will allow for affordable transportation again, and there will be new car companies who pop up to fill the void.

I already see many more people riding scooters and bikes than I have in the past, and nothing is wrong with that.
 
just happen make it sound if it is not due to the extreme many decades of supply chain, vertical integration and general industrial excellence, combined to have had hundreds of Chinese companies that entered the making cars market (400+ at his peak) and brutally competed against each other in the most competitive market in the world, forcing excellence in the few winners.
 
I wonder whether they are thinking of AI tech like open weight LLMs that you download from huggingface and Co. Many of the good ones are made by companies named here.
 
Nobu said:
We don't need Chinese cars, we need cheaper cars.
Click to expand...
Tough to do without rolling back fuel economy standards (which, personally I'm OK with, depending on the final value. I think 25 mpg city driving for a compact car (for example) isn't a bad place to be.
 
uOpt said:
I wonder whether they are thinking of AI tech like open weight LLMs that you download from huggingface and Co. Many of the good ones are made by companies named here.
Click to expand...
maybe that would restrict (or create fear to build your business around it if that not officially already the case) the use of thoses for people with significant contract with the military (must be many of the big companies)... that could make meta and Nvidia nemotron (nvidia is one of the few fully open not just weights) quite popular among those...

1_rick said:
Tough to do without rolling back fuel economy standards (which, personally I'm OK with, depending on the final value. I think 25 mpg city driving for a compact car (for example) isn't a bad place to be.
Click to expand...
It is not because of too low miles per gallons that a cheap 1992 Geo Metro car is illegal to make and sales in the USA in 2026, they were super dirty in particule but good for today fuel efficiency.

Not sure if people would want them (50-60 hp... cars now) and colission against today fleet car size would be quite dangerous.

Just letting chinese sells cars without tarrif would do it, quite easily and being electric they match fuel economy stantard.
 
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Collision with today's car size is a problem...today, with today's cars. Importing cars from china won't save local manufacturers either, so there goes that argument. The problem isn't that we don't have Chinese cars, it's that the cars we have are expensive. And that is solvable without importing.
 
uOpt said:
I wonder whether they are thinking of AI tech like open weight LLMs that you download from huggingface and Co. Many of the good ones are made by companies named here.
Click to expand...
https://www.congress.gov/bill/118th-congress/house-bill/7521

Those can only be restricted if they pass something similar to the Protecting Americans from Foreign Adversary Controlled Applications Act. It's unlikely to pass, but nothing should surprise us at this point.
 
philb2 said:
https://www.eweek.com/news/alibaba-baidu-unitree-pentagon-blacklist-apac-china/

The update also swept in a wider set of Chinese tech companies, including memory chipmakers CXMT and YMTC, biotech firm WuXi AppTec, lidar company RoboSense, and electric vehicle maker BYD.

Washington’s action now complicates the global ambitions of Chinese tech firms competing in AI models, autonomous vehicles, and humanoid robots.
Click to expand...
All of this really is to keep prices in the U.S artificially inflated. China could easily help the prices come down, but the U.S doesn't want that. So we all get gouged to death. This YoY profit chasing is going to destroy us. It's not sustainable.
 
kac77 said:
All of this really is to keep prices in the U.S artificially inflated. China could easily help the prices come down, but the U.S doesn't want that. So we all get gouged to death. This YoY profit chasing is going to destroy us. It's not sustainable.
Click to expand...

The RAM from China is not banned from commercial use only Federal/military and of 3 of the main RAM manufacturers 2 are South Korean, whom we accept RAM from, and only 1 is American - there are good reasons not to trust China (besides if you remember COVID supply shock or not) especially when it's something like memory that such critical things pass through - their shit sucks and is behind is why they haven't made inroads in US consumer markets
 
Nobu said:
We don't need Chinese cars, we need cheaper cars. Chinese cars just happen to be cheaper.
Click to expand...
What you want is competition and the more of it the better. You won't lower prices without competition from places like China.
If all the current brands fail, I'm okay with that (but I doubt it will happen, even without bailouts).
Click to expand...
Most likely hurt their shareholder value more than anything else really.
People can start walking, or get a bike, and eventually regulation and business will allow for affordable transportation again, and there will be new car companies who pop up to fill the void.
Click to expand...
People have already done this, and there's even regulation on this. E-Bikes in NJ have started to need registration because less people driving cars means less revenue for the state. The more clever you get, the more clever they get.
1_rick said:
Tough to do without rolling back fuel economy standards (which, personally I'm OK with, depending on the final value. I think 25 mpg city driving for a compact car (for example) isn't a bad place to be.
Click to expand...
What does fuel economy standards have to do with cheaper cars? Things like CVT transmissions and direct injection actually cost less than a proper geared transmission and a port injection, while also increasing MPG. Except that port injection was better for MPG in some areas so now cars have them both, which does make them more expensive.
LukeTbk said:
Not sure if people would want them (50-60 hp... cars now) and colission against today fleet car size would be quite dangerous.

Just letting chinese sells cars without tarrif would do it, quite easily and being electric they match fuel economy stantard.
Click to expand...
People here really don't understand cars. A cheaper car aren't cheaper because it has less horsepower. That Geo Metro didn't have power seats, power windows, and a power sliding sunroof. Basically, luxury features are making modern cars expensive. Everyone has a 4 cylinder turbo that makes 200+ hp, which is already as low as you can go. If you lower HP then it's done intentionally, which some car companies have done.
Nobu said:
Collision with today's car size is a problem...today, with today's cars.
Click to expand...
Because everyone wants an SUV. I shack my head in disappointment every time I see a Porsche SUV. Not only are SUV's bigger and heavier, which doesn't make them sporty, but also use more fuel. Unless it's a Tesla where the center of gravity is so low that tipping them over is impossible, most SUV's have a much greater chance of a rollover.
Importing cars from china won't save local manufacturers either, so there goes that argument. The problem isn't that we don't have Chinese cars, it's that the cars we have are expensive. And that is solvable without importing.
Click to expand...
We're not interested is saving local manufacturers. Let local manufacturers figure that out. If the market continues the way it is, it will have another 2008 moment. Cars are expensive because most people can't afford to buy new cars. New cars are only affordable to people who want SUV's, so of course everyone makes Luxury SUV's. The car market has priced itself out. There is no such thing as a luxury car brand, because all car brands are now luxury. Getting Chinese goods in USA would kick manufacturers into lowering pricing, and finding ways to make cheaper products. This is why for the past several years we keep seeing insane inflation because we keep banning other countries from competing within our market. Nobody is going to lower prices when it's easily price fixed.
 
DukenukemX said:
We're not interested is saving local manufacturers. Let local manufacturers figure that out.
Click to expand...
Also like we see we the germans, you can create artificial market for bad car maker, they can operate in them, but they cannot compete and sales them in the open market anymore....

American made car will (already pretty much) become impossible to sales in open free markets. Those protection can be a bit of a poisoned pill, would you have had an export ambitions. Domestic north american market can be high enough to not want to have too compete too...

DukenukemX said:
People here really don't understand cars. A cheaper car aren't cheaper because it has less horsepower.
Click to expand...
well it is not like a 200hp enginee is not a more complicated one that do cost more to make than an 80hp one with no drivetrain/chassis implications to be able to take advantage of it...

Turbo-intercooler-complex electronic, the quality of pistons and everything for those nice small 200hp engine make them more expensive than making an 80hp one, it is not just an artificial product category, same for the cooling need of it, 200hp better transmission needed, driveshafts, clutches, become tempting to have tires for that power.. The 80hp engine and its cooling tend to be weight less, then brakes cost less.

The dacia sandero/toyota agya they use simpler non-turbo under 100 hp engine to reach its impressive prices. and they come with front electric window
 
Are cars too expensive or not? If they are too expensive, then people won't buy them, and prices will go down. If they aren't, then people will keep buying them, and importing more cars won't make a difference -- people will buy both the cars we have now and the imports, and the price won't change.
 
LukeTbk said:
American made car will (already pretty much) become impossible to sales in open free markets. Those protection can be a bit of a poisoned pill, would you have had an export ambitions. Domestic north american market can be high enough to not want to have too compete too...
Click to expand...
I can tell you that American cars suck, with the exception of Tesla. If nobody is buying them in the open market, then that's because their domestic and Japanese cars are better. In USA we think of German cars as fantastical, and Japanese cars are reliable. American cars are cheaply made throw away cars that have no business being made, let alone sold. The only exception are American sports cars and pickup trucks. Not to forget, American vehicles are BIG and wouldn't work for European roads. Also, Europe taxes engine size because they think higher displacement is bad for the environment. This is why Europeans love turbos because it gives the power needed that low displacement can't provide.
well it is not like a 200hp enginee is not a more complicated one that do cost more to make than an 80hp one with no drivetrain/chassis implications to be able to take advantage of it...

Turbo-intercooler-complex electronic, the quality of pistons and everything for those nice small 200hp engine make them more expensive than making an 80hp one,
Click to expand...
Again, you know nothing about cars. The advancements from engine power doesn't come from pistons and... turbo intercooler. Most of it comes from better designed intakes and being able to advance the timing due to direct injection. Catalytic converters from that era were terrible for cars performance. Why you think we were making 400hp+ cars in the 60's and 70's but then the 80's we have V8's that don't even make 200hp? Turbo anything and it'll make more power, which is what we do today, because it's efficient. That Geo Metro was making crap power because it used a carburetor and more importantly is a 1.0L 3 cylinder. Ford also makes a 1.0L EcoBoost that makes roughly 123hp which is a respectable amount of HP, but the engine isn't efficient. Small engines aren't always fuel efficient. Keep in mind you're advocating to making cars worse to save a very broken USA car market by offering worse engines. Or just buy from China.

Nobu said:
Are cars too expensive or not? If they are too expensive, then people won't buy them, and prices will go down. If they aren't, then people will keep buying them, and importing more cars won't make a difference -- people will buy both the cars we have now and the imports, and the price won't change.
Click to expand...
That's not how the economy currently works. Nobody is buying anything, but they are taking on loans and leases which are insane right now. Americans go by monthly payments, and as long as they can make that payment then they don't care about the price of cars, or the price of anything really. It's not uncommon for someone to be making over $1k a month in payments for a car, or paying off a car in several years to only watch the car depreciate in value faster than they can pay it off.

View: https://youtu.be/Ivp4O-udEDs?si=LqlzMzdj1Mo8SGU3

The only way to solve this pricing epidemic is to get other countries involved (like China) to compete with domestic manufacturers. Don't matter if it's cars, electronics, or AI. Our inflation is so high right now that we need a country with deflation problems (like China) to fix it. This is why we're being conditioned to see China and Russia as bad, because they could lower our inflation which the elites don't want. Keep in mind a lot of what makes up domestic cars are made in China, but nobody will tell you that. Take the Ford Mustangs Getrag MT82 6-speed manual, which is hated. Guess where it's made? The newer Mustangs are using a Getrag MT82-D4 which doesn't have the same reliability problems, but guess where it's made? I'll give you a hint, it starts with the letter 'C'.
 
DukenukemX said:
I can tell you that American cars suck, with the exception of Tesla. If nobody is buying them in the open market, then that's because their domestic and Japanese cars are better. In USA we think of German cars as fantastical, and Japanese cars are reliable. American cars are cheaply made throw away cars that have no business being made, let alone sold. The only exception are American sports cars and pickup trucks. Not to forget, American vehicles are BIG and wouldn't work for European roads. Also, Europe taxes engine size because they think higher displacement is bad for the environment. This is why Europeans love turbos because it gives the power needed that low displacement can't provide.

Again, you know nothing about cars. The advancements from engine power doesn't come from pistons and... turbo intercooler. Most of it comes from better designed intakes and being able to advance the timing due to direct injection. Catalytic converters from that era were terrible for cars performance. Why you think we were making 400hp+ cars in the 60's and 70's but then the 80's we have V8's that don't even make 200hp? Turbo anything and it'll make more power, which is what we do today, because it's efficient. That Geo Metro was making crap power because it used a carburetor and more importantly is a 1.0L 3 cylinder. Ford also makes a 1.0L EcoBoost that makes roughly 123hp which is a respectable amount of HP, but the engine isn't efficient. Small engines aren't always fuel efficient. Keep in mind you're advocating to making cars worse to save a very broken USA car market by offering worse engines. Or just buy from China.
View attachment 808950

That's not how the economy currently works. Nobody is buying anything, but they are taking on loans and leases which are insane right now. Americans go by monthly payments, and as long as they can make that payment then they don't care about the price of cars, or the price of anything really. It's not uncommon for someone to be making over $1k a month in payments for a car, or paying off a car in several years to only watch the car depreciate in value faster than they can pay it off.

View: https://youtu.be/Ivp4O-udEDs?si=LqlzMzdj1Mo8SGU3

The only way to solve this pricing epidemic is to get other countries involved (like China) to compete with domestic manufacturers. Don't matter if it's cars, electronics, or AI. Our inflation is so high right now that we need a country with deflation problems (like China) to fix it. This is why we're being conditioned to see China and Russia as bad, because they could lower our inflation which the elites don't want. Keep in mind a lot of what makes up domestic cars are made in China, but nobody will tell you that. Take the Ford Mustangs Getrag MT82 6-speed manual, which is hated. Guess where it's made? The newer Mustangs are using a Getrag MT82-D4 which doesn't have the same reliability problems, but guess where it's made? I'll give you a hint, it starts with the letter 'C'.
Click to expand...

It's not going to lower price though, for the same reason. If someone wants a $60k, $100k Mustang, they're going to buy it price be damned, as long as they can afford the payments. They don't care about electric, and China isn't manufacturing Chinese branded ICE cars for the US market. If they were, I doubt they would be better than brands that are currently available (many have parts made in China anyway, right?), and US dealerships won't put a car on their floor that will cannibalize the sales from their own brand anyway, so you'll have a separate dealership network too, if you have one at all.
 
https://english.www.gov.cn/news/202601/09/content_WS6960b0f4c6d00ca5f9a0880e.html

China doesn't have deflation problems, quite the opposite actually. Food prices were a big exception, which is changing now.
China's version of the CPI probably doesn't include housing, so it's the same type of joke.
China had the same type of stupid housing bubble as the US. Hong Kong was the worst.
When I was in Shenzhen, it became too expensive for Huawei to keep the factories there. They moved them to smaller cities an hour drive away.
I worked for a medical company that chose Shenzhen because they couldn't prototype fast enough in the US. Cost was secondary to them.

Prices are going up in every country. The simplest explanation is the increased need to ration resources. Bad policy is a contributing factor, but usually a minor one.

Cheaper cars will make the traffic situation worse. The state will have to do something to limit the number of cars that's gonna be as annoying as high prices. A few of my friends moved to NYC, because it's the only place in the US where public transit is usable.
 
Nobu said:
It's not going to lower price though, for the same reason. If someone wants a $60k, $100k Mustang, they're going to buy it price be damned, as long as they can afford the payments.
Click to expand...
I'm not going to disagree with you there, but lets say you're willing to shop around for a sports car, and please tell me this Mustang is a sports car. Fuck those SUV Mustangs. I would be wiling to buy a BYD for $32k over a $60K+ Mustang. That $60k doesn't even get me the Coyote engine either, as I need to spend $100k for that. Honestly, if your Mustang doesn't have a V8 then you don't have a Mustang. Because the BYD is electric, that means this Iran war won't have a massive effect on my fuel bill. AI data centers will do that instead.
They don't care about electric, and China isn't manufacturing Chinese branded ICE cars for the US market. If they were, I doubt they would be better than brands that are currently available (many have parts made in China anyway, right?), and US dealerships won't put a car on their floor that will cannibalize the sales from their own brand anyway, so you'll have a separate dealership network too, if you have one at all.
Click to expand...
Whatever the case, this needs to happen. We can't pretend we have a free open market by limiting the free open market. Russia bad for invading Ukraine, but now we're doing the same thing with Iran and have done with Venezuela. We banned Kaspersky because Russia bad, but I feel like we're throwing stones from glass houses. We've been fucking around with China because China bad. Did China invade a country? Did China start wars? No, we just hate those Chinese sons of bitches. Meanwhile, please buy our "American" made products. Please ignore the "Made in China" sticker. Even the Trump Phone is made in China.
chinese sons of bitches.gif

Prices are going up in every country. The simplest explanation is the increased need to ration resources. Bad policy is a contributing factor, but usually a minor one.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that Chinese goods sold in USA would be even more expensive? As far as I know, Japan hasn't had inflation in forever. China isn't alone.
Cheaper cars will make the traffic situation worse. The state will have to do something to limit the number of cars that's gonna be as annoying as high prices. A few of my friends moved to NYC, because it's the only place in the US where public transit is usable.
Click to expand...
People are still driving cars, regardless of new car prices. The difference is that people are driving older, slower, and less efficient cars. If you want less traffic then build high speed trains. That way people can live in the middle of nowhere and won't have to commute 2 hours to get to their jobs.
 
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DukenukemX said:
I'm not going to disagree with you there, but lets say you're willing to shop around for a sports car, and please tell me this Mustang is a sports car. Fuck those SUV Mustangs. I would be wiling to buy a BYD for $32k over a $60K+ Mustang. That $60k doesn't even get me the Coyote engine either, as I need to spend $100k for that. Honestly, if your Mustang doesn't have a V8 then you don't have a Mustang. Because the BYD is electric, that means this Iran war won't have a massive effect on my fuel bill. AI data centers will do that instead.

Whatever the case, this needs to happen. We can't pretend we have a free open market by limiting the free open market. Russia bad for invading Ukraine, but now we're doing the same thing with Iran and have done with Venezuela. We banned Kaspersky because Russia bad, but I feel like we're throwing stones from glass houses. We've been fucking around with China because China bad. Did China invade a country? Did China start wars? No, we just hate those Chinese sons of bitches. Meanwhile, please buy our "American" made products. Please ignore the "Made in China" sticker. Even the Trump Phone is made in China.
View attachment 809010

So you're saying that Chinese goods sold in USA would be even more expensive? As far as I know, Japan hasn't had inflation in forever. China isn't alone.

People are still driving cars, regardless of new car prices. The difference is that people are driving older, slower, and less efficient cars. If you want less traffic then build high speed trains. That way people can live in the middle of nowhere and won't have to commute 2 hours to get to their jobs.
View attachment 809011
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If I'm shopping around, I'll just get a $30-40k used mustang. Look, I get what you're saying. But China isn't a solution. Best case, we have more cars on the road that nobody wants to fix and end up crushed in the junkyard in 5-10 years. And more vehicle fires because they are all electric to boot.

Edit: I'm not implying they are more likely to just catch fire, btw, just saying there would be more, and because they are, they will be involved in accidents, abused, etc, and eventually catch fire.
 
DukenukemX said:
So you're saying that Chinese goods sold in USA would be even more expensive?
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I'm not saying that. The materials price increase can be offset by subsidies.

DukenukemX said:
Japan hasn't had inflation in forever
Click to expand...
Not true. Rice prices doubled 2 years ago, and weak yen caused prices to rise. This year it's even worse.

DukenukemX said:
People are still driving cars
Click to expand...
Many young people are priced out of having a car. There was a survey that showed that most had to ask their parents to drive them to a job interview.
 
DukenukemX said:
Again, you know nothing about cars.
Click to expand...
Yup that making a 200hp cars do involve actual real cost (from the engine quality, cooling to the transmissions) and not pure made up product segmentation is really a crazy thought only people that know nothing about cars would say... and the against all the cheap car in the world are low power is that those 200hp cars have small displacement ? Putting a turbo is free ? Transmission that can handle more power is also free versus those who handle less ?
 
DukenukemX said:
I can tell you that American cars suck, with the exception of Tesla. If nobody is buying them in the open market, then that's because their domestic and Japanese cars are better.
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And of course chineses cars.

I am not sure american made tesla have much a chance to compete in many actual open markets, chinese made Tesla are much more competitive, maybe close to the american factory because of shipping cost, but otherwise it is massive government subsidy and tariff protection that make them competing possible. Chinese one have higher quality level and cheaper to make, it is those that people are buying (or germans one in europe), not the american ones.
 
DukenukemX said:
If you wonder why prices aren't going down then look no further. We keep banning cheaper products from other countries and expect prices to somehow go down? What's interesting is that Alibaba’s Qwen is now doing better than OpenAI and Gemini. Look at what a dude brought from China to Americas got talent?
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This is totally naive. China uses "dumping" to destroy industries. Steel, solar panels, EVs, electronics, plastics, auto parts, etc. Here is how dumping works: their government subsidizes industries and exports cheaper products. Once they have a monopoly across the world, they slowly start raising their prices and remove the subsidies. China can do this, because they still partially operate as a centrally planned / capitalistic society. They have long term plans to takeover specific industries. It is very successful. It's how they create monopolies. Somehow they keep fooling the world, like Lucy does to Charlie Brown by pulling away the football he is trying to kick at the last minute.
Qwen3.6-27B had this to say about it:
EVs:
1. Manufacturing & R&D Grants
China provides billions in direct grants to automakers and battery manufacturers to lower their production costs and encourage domestic innovation.
* Source (MIT CEEPR, July 2025): Research Commentary on China's EV Subsidies
* Key finding: Total EV and battery manufacturing subsidies grew from $5 billion in 2018 to $17.5 billion in 2024.

2. Consumer Purchase Tax Exemptions
To stimulate demand, the Chinese government has waived the standard 10% vehicle purchase tax on new energy vehicles (NEVs). This exemption saves buyers up to roughly $3,920 per vehicle and
is still active in 2025-2026 (though being phased down slightly).
* Source (Intereconomics / EU Commission): EU Concerns About Chinese Subsidies

3. "Trade-In" Cash Rebates (2025–2026)
The government currently runs massive national stimulus programs where citizens get cash for scrapping their old (gasoline) cars and buying new EVs.
* Source (Caixin Global, April 2026): China Auto Market Hits the Brakes After Subsidy Cuts
* Source (CNEVpost, Dec 2025): China to Continue Trade-in Subsidies in 2026
* Key detail: For 2026, scrapping an old car to buy a new EV gets you 12% of the purchase price (capped at 20,000 RMB / ~$2,860).

4. Corporate Tax Breaks & Cheap Loans
EV companies receive deep corporate tax concessions (reducing tax bills by 50% or more) and "below-market borrowings" from state-owned banks.
* Source (OECD Report, Feb 2025): How Subsidies Shape Global Car and EV Production
* Key finding: Carmakers based in China receive significantly larger subsidies relative to their revenue than legacy carmakers in OECD countries.

5. EU Anti-Subsidy Investigation (Tariffs)
Because of these subsidies, Western markets are actively trying to offset the advantage Chinese cars have.
* Source (European Commission): EU Imposes Countervailing Duties on Chinese EVs
* Key detail: Duties range from 17.4% (for BYD) to 38.1% (for SAIC) on top of the standard 10% import tariff.

Plastics:
1. Direct US Anti-Subsidy Findings
The U.S. Department of Commerce has formally found that Chinese plastic producers receive massive government subsidies, selling products in the US at unfairly low prices.
* Source (Packaging Gateway): New US trade penalties hit Chinese packaging products
* Key detail: The US imposed countervailing duties of 62.27% on Chinese polypropylene corrugated boxes, concluding that "Chinese producers benefited from government subsidies and sold th
e products in the U.S. at unfairly low prices."
* Source (NatureWorks / US Trade Representative): NatureWorks urges tariffs on PLA imports
* Key detail: A US manufacturer petitioned the government stating: "China's state-supported industrial policies, subsidized inputs, and coordinated expansion across the PLA [bioplastic]
value chain have resulted in persistent overcapacity and artificially suppressed pricing."

2. EU & India Trade Probes
* Source (Agence Europe, June 2026): EU opens anti-dumping investigation into Chinese biodegradable copolyesters
* Context: BASF filed a complaint that subsidized Chinese imports are destroying the European biodegradable plastics market.
* Source (Live Mint, Feb 2026): India begins anti-subsidy probe into Chinese plastic raw material imports
* Context: India launched a countervailing duty probe on Chinese PVC suspension resin citing "subsidized imports."

3. Subsidies to Upstream Feedstock (Petrochemicals / Coal Chemicals)
Plastics are made from feedstocks like ethylene, propylene, and coal-chemical derivatives. China subsidizes these heavily:
* Source (DailyAlpha, April 2026): China Launches 4-Year Plan to Upgrade Aging Petrochemical Facilities
* Key detail: The central bank (PBOC) provides special relending at a 1.75% interest rate for equipment upgrades. The government allocated ¥62.5 billion in ultra-long-term special treasu
ry bonds to support these industries.
* Source (ScienceDirect): Fossil energy subsidies in China's modern coal chemical industry
* Key detail: Central and local governments subsidize R&D, land use, coal resource access, and loans for the coal-chemical industries (which produce plastic precursors).
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On Qwen (Alibaba), China is using an extensive network of bots to essentially reverse engineer American AI company's models through "distillation" and effectively steal their IP.
Anthropic recently detailed how China is doing this. IMO, their culture is morally bankrupt, but it is a very successful financial strategy.
The adage "cheaters never prosper" is often not true. Cheaters prosper greatly.
 
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