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Is Microsoft Fixing Windows 11 or Making It Worse?

Executioner

Older Than FrgMstr
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Apr 22, 2015
Messages
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Interesting discussion. Some of the proposed changes include removing the MS account requirement and reduction in memory requirement. Removing some of the AI in apps like Paint, and including having the user decide when they update the OS like Linux. Also discussed a bit on Linux and Linux gaming including the Steam Deck and impacts on Windows.


View: https://youtu.be/BNFgwDG3FLs
 
Beleive it when we see it...

MS lost the trust of many very very quickly, starting with Windows 8... and never got it back.

Windows 10, sort of saved face, but Windows 11 just threw what ever was left, out the window! So reverting that damage, and then sticking to it....ya....well see.
 
Beleive it when we see it...

MS lost the trust of many very very quickly, starting with Windows 8... and never got it back.

Windows 10, sort of saved face, but Windows 11 just threw what ever was left, out the window! So reverting that damage, and then sticking to it....ya....well see.
Well, 8 was Microsofts attempt to unify its interfaces and try to make Windows Phone a thing. After that, 10 started the trend where Microsoft would force updates, because it found people on 7 tended to delay forever, leaving security holes unpatched that were used in various cyberattacks. So I understand where forced updates came from, especially since Microsoft got a lot of flack for the number of times unpatched holes in 7 were used.

As for 11, Microsoft tried to (badly) copy Apple, while updating a lot of the core OS, while trying to embrace every emerging tech. And it did not go well.
 
Well, 8 was Microsofts attempt to unify its interfaces and try to make Windows Phone a thing. After that, 10 started the trend where Microsoft would force updates, because it found people on 7 tended to delay forever, leaving security holes unpatched that were used in various cyberattacks. So I understand where forced updates came from, especially since Microsoft got a lot of flack for the number of times unpatched holes in 7 were used.

As for 11, Microsoft tried to (badly) copy Apple, while updating a lot of the core OS, while trying to embrace every emerging tech. And it did not go well.
So force updates, I am for that, but when you force updates that crash core functionality of the OS, that is exactly what causes people to stop allowing automatic updates, and it seems like MS is doing well to break something serious every month lately with their updates.
 
I don't think they really care. End users aren't paying for Windows anymore and it's not like businesses or the OEMs selling retail boxes are swapping over to Linux in numbers that concern them. They'd rather piss people off while trying to slowly nudge them toward ecosystems they hope they'll never be able to escape. Lock 'em down so they feel like they can't leave. You'll lose too much. Do it now while the core OS still matters. That's pretty much how/why we're all using Windows right now anyway.
 
This is complete bs. They ignored these complaints literally for the last couple of decades NOW that people are actually moving away from Windows to the tune of several percentage points suddenly the care.

It would be one thing if I believed they would change course permanently but I don't. They might turn the temp back down on boiling the frog for one Windows release because everyone noticed the water boiling them but they'll go right back again in 2-4 years. And that's if these rumors are even true.

Trusting MS on this is like Stockholm syndrome.
 
They also need to go back to allowing you to customize your install so only what you want is installed.
 
for Microsoft, it's all about control

Compared to what, the latest FOTM linux distro with single-digit market-share? Windows is still incredibly open compared to every other platform that is actually popular. It has an app store, but it's not forcefully funneling you through it. It has a browser, but it's not forcing you to use it. It is still possible to not use a Microsoft Account. There are AI features built-in to the OS, but if you don't engage with it, it leaves you alone.

Trusting MS on this is like Stockholm syndrome.

I'd say that it's a "symptom" of something when you anthropomorphize a company when talking about things like "trust". Microsoft is capable of changing direction just as fast as their shareholders want them to. Sorry that Steve Ballmer didn't use lube during your interaction 20 years ago.
 
This is complete bs. They ignored these complaints literally for the last couple of decades NOW that people are actually moving away from Windows to the tune of several percentage points suddenly the care.

It would be one thing if I believed they would change course permanently but I don't. They might turn the temp back down on boiling the frog for one Windows release because everyone noticed the water boiling them but they'll go right back again in 2-4 years. And that's if these rumors are even true.

Trusting MS on this is like Stockholm syndrome.
Because now they see that % of people are people who wont allow Copilot to be shoved down their throats and have everything they do tracked by Recall....

Even at my work we are doing a small PoC using Claude because Copilot just falls flat on it's face with basic things, things MS touted it can do so well. We also just moved down to their new Copilot Business SKU (300 users and below) from Copilot for M365 which saves us $10k a year on licenses right now....
 
Compared to what, the latest FOTM linux distro with single-digit market-share? Windows is still incredibly open compared to every other platform that is actually popular. It has an app store, but it's not forcefully funneling you through it. It has a browser, but it's not forcing you to use it. It is still possible to not use a Microsoft Account. There are AI features built-in to the OS, but if you don't engage with it, it leaves you alone.



I'd say that it's a "symptom" of something when you anthropomorphize a company when talking about things like "trust". Microsoft is capable of changing direction just as fast as their shareholders want them to. Sorry that Steve Ballmer didn't use lube during your interaction 20 years ago.
Anything MS does is NOT for the end users benefit, it has not for a decade + now, everything MS does now is to gain more data on its users and pad the bottom line (which any business would do) but their decisions are going to cost them more money in the long run.

Now, that doesnt not mean everyone is jumping ship, from home users to companies, as noted, too many companies are engraved in the MS eco-system so getting out would be a major undertaking and cost.

When you have entire nations in the EU saying enough, lets get off of MS due to "US laws" and MS lying about data residency and GDPR compliance...You can bet those are what are igniting this conversation, along with their abysmal conversion rate to paid CoPilot subs...
 
Compared to what, the latest FOTM linux distro with single-digit market-share? Windows is still incredibly open compared to every other platform that is actually popular. It has an app store, but it's not forcefully funneling you through it. It has a browser, but it's not forcing you to use it. It is still possible to not use a Microsoft Account. There are AI features built-in to the OS, but if you don't engage with it, it leaves you alone.



I'd say that it's a "symptom" of something when you anthropomorphize a company when talking about things like "trust". Microsoft is capable of changing direction just as fast as their shareholders want them to. Sorry that Steve Ballmer didn't use lube during your interaction 20 years ago.
Well, that was graphic. But no, I don't agree there is any chance this is something shareholder sentiment can turn around. The issue of privacy and security is larger than that across the entire industry and across society. We can take a stand and not use products that abuse us, even if it does mean a loss of perceived or real convenience. Or not.

1) How much more open is Windows vs Android at this point? Yes, Windows is still more open, but the software controls for what you are allowed to install and run is shockingly close to way the Google Play Store currently work with Android. (Yes, I know Google may be about to lock Android down further) The first time you try to run an app MS doesn't have on its whitelist it tries to pressure you heavily to only allow App Store apps.
2) It does forcefully funnel you through the app store, ALL the apps that are preloaded or updated when you install Windows or update OneDrive or Teams... all of it is done through the app store. You can't separate the OS from it completely at all anymore. It's fully integrated and can't be uninstalled by normal means.
3) The Edge browser is forced in every way except for being your default personal web browser which only provides an illusion of having the choice for it to not be used. It is fully integrated with the OS and Copilot and Edge can not be uninstalled by any normal means. It also runs in the background as the OS decides it needs it whether you are noticing it or not.
4) It's only barely still possible to not use a MS Account. I do this work for customers all the time. Very, very few can now use Windows as "average" users without getting forced into it somewhere. It's just not reasonable anymore. When I set up machines with a local account, almost every customer has reconnected to their MS Account for one reason or another by a few days later many don't even realize that connecting the user to a MS Account is permanent and comes with other baggage. They just know they need to login to MS to do whatever so they do and then their account is connected all the time after that.

When it's a free upgrade, I understand this. But I'd be happy to go back to paying for OS to get back to the basics.
And that's another example of watching what they DO and not what they say. I'd be thrilled with Windows going back to pay once per major version release if the OS would go back to being private and local. But they won't. They can't make the kind of money, or gain the kind of market and personal info they do now by doing that. Even $200 licenses wouldn't tempt them for end users. The information they collect is far more valuable in the long term in profit, controlling markets, controlling users, and other things.
 
i dont have what hes bitching about this time, was removed two updates ago. half the time hes bitching about things other people are bitching about that are only in canary releases...
 
Might as well post this here.
I updated the BIOS on one of my machines yesterday, which reset my TPM module. I don't have bitlocker enabled so didn't think it would be a problem. WRONG. Microsoft now wants me to buy a new Windows licence.
Well, in the viral words of John Malkovich, "f*** Microsoft". Masgrave FTW I guess.
 
Might as well post this here.
I updated the BIOS on one of my machines yesterday, which reset my TPM module. I don't have bitlocker enabled so didn't think it would be a problem. WRONG. Microsoft now wants me to buy a new Windows licence.
Well, in the viral words of John Malkovich, "f*** Microsoft". Masgrave FTW I guess.
I've noticed this a lot regarding legitimate Windows installs on client PC's, you get the activation watermark on the screen, and often not even the original key resolves the issue. As always, Massgrave usually saves the day.
 
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Might as well post this here.
I updated the BIOS on one of my machines yesterday, which reset my TPM module. I don't have bitlocker enabled so didn't think it would be a problem. WRONG. Microsoft now wants me to buy a new Windows licence.
Well, in the viral words of John Malkovich, "f*** Microsoft". Masgrave FTW I guess.
Just give it time on the activation. It may just activate in the next 24 hours on its own if nothing else changed. Windows has several methods of determining activation these days and all of it is a PITA.
 
Wish I saw the replies earlier.
Everything Microslop is just broken now. I use the phonelink app for work and at least every few weeks it breaks in some way. The other day all I could see was the settings screen and couldn't access apps or even basic messaging. I tried everything to fix it, onthing worked, then a few days later it mysteriously started working again.
My Microslop account is somehow also broken(ish). I can't login anywhere, was trying to login to teams for parent-teacher conferences and onedrive was showing as offline. Just could not login to my work account into teams at all, no error message, the login just vanishes after a while. Thankfully I don't use it for anything critical. Today, I try to login again and onedrive mysteriously works after about 5 minutes of the login wheel.
I'm getting real tired of this shit. The most reliable MS apps right now are word and onenote, thank goodness (mission critical for my job), but now that I've said it out loud, MS will find a way to f*** me over probably. A few months ago they killed links in onenote to files and folders "for security reasons", but brought it back after a massive backlash.
 
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They lost my trust with the xbox one and windows 8 shenanigans. But the products still worked well even though they were enshittifying. The non stop broken updates with win11 makes me think they don't have a single decent programmer left at Microsoft. There is a difference between saying you'll fix things, and actually fixing them. At this point - I need to see years of fixing the issue to gain back any trust whatsoever with microsoft.
 
One of the items I wish they would fix is the hidden folder under your user name: users/your account name/appdata/local/temp

About once a month, I have to go there and delete a bunch of files. The Disk Cleanup utility does not even touch this folder. On a laptop for a friend that I fixed, had over 10GB of junk files there. Yeah there are some files in use, but the majority of them can be safely deleted.
 
What exactly is wrong with Windows 11 that can't be easily fixed?

I have been using Linux for over a decade, and just switched to Win11, and I like it. I switched, because I need some apps for work, and they're not supported (I don't wanna mess with Wine).
The main problem in Linux was the network manager powering down the network chip, and I had to add kargs, and change the service config to fix it. H.264 hardware acceleration was another problem.
I got an offline account. I removed OneDrive, CoPilot, disabled recommendations. Ironically, ChatGPT was great help for disabling CoPilot :)
Now Windows has Expose, and good search, which was the reason I liked MacOS over it years ago.
So far there was only 1 update, and Windows didn't force me to do it.
 
What exactly is wrong with Windows 11 that can't be easily fixed?

Go look at the Feedback Hub (part of the Windows Insiders program). That's what can't easily be fixed.

I've been with the Windows Insiders program since day 1. That's where you'll see a lot of fixes, breaks, but it also used to really be a community where you'd have webcasts, bug bashes, and they'd really take the consumer feedback and use it. They lost that along the way, but are starting to go back in that direction. As long as the new head of Windows has some balls to stand up to Satya, it might have some turn around (it looks like he might have some power to make changes, not sure how much yet). That's where the biggest issue is, IMO. Satya's trying to force AI into everything and isn't taking no for an answer. There's a direction he wants Windows to go and he's pushing it that direction against the desires of the consumer. It's really hurting Windows reputation. From broken updates, long standing issues that aren't being addressed, AI push, features that go backwards, inconsistent UI, etc..

Windows CAN be a great OS. Right now, it's a usable OS. With Windows 10, it was a relief from Windows 8. Windows 11 isn't an exciting upgrade. Instead of pushing AI, they need to focus on the core of the OS (which looks like they are starting to do with Windows K2). I really hope that the next major iteration of Windows not only fixes the problems with Windows 11, but is something exciting to upgrade to. Something that makes you want to upgrade, not just upgrade to have the latest and greatest. If it's subscription based or requires an internet connection and Microsoft account with all the crap that comes with it, it'll just piss people off more and they'll continue to look for alternatives.
 
RedHat had a support system where you got the guy who wrote the software on the phone to troubleshoot your issue. They charged a pretty penny for it as you can imagine. I have no expectation that Microsoft can provide that level of support.

Windows doesn't have any real competition for desktops, so its reputation doesn't matter. For laptops, Apple is a real contender, although Snapdragon laptops are catching up. If you want games or SolidWorks, Windows is the only option. Linux isn't even functional on Snapdragon. People may be pissed, but not enough to pay $500 for 1TB of extra storage from Apple.

Windows 11 upgrade is $0, so they have to make money somewhere else. I don't even see it as an upgrade. It's the same OS with minor changes as it's been for the last 20 years.
 
Linux works for me as my daily driver but I still use Windows for Windows only software and for most local networking needs. Linux networking sucks. But to be honest, Windows does too out the box but once configured it works as it should from then on. Not so Linux.
 
The main problem in Linux was the network manager powering down the network chip, and I had to add kargs, and change the service config to fix it. H.264 hardware acceleration was another problem.
What distro were you using you had to do those things?

I've not had to touch or had issues like that for years?
 
Linux works for me as my daily driver but I still use Windows for Windows only software and for most local networking needs. Linux networking sucks. But to be honest, Windows does too out the box but once configured it works as it should from then on. Not so Linux.
How does Linux networking suck?
 
For starters it's unintuitive. Second, too much cli, I can't remember the command from one config to another. Thirdly, too damned much security, all of my networking is local so I don't need any damned security. and last but not least, the vast majority of howtos on the web are outdated, don't work or are just plain wrong. I did manage to find a relatively easy way to connect to a Windows share using Nemo connect to server but it remembers nothing so it's a PITA if I have to connect more than twice. As far as connecting Linux to Linux, that's where it really sucks. I have never been able to get it to work and gave up in disgust a long time ago.
 
What distro were you using you had to do those things?
Silverblue. It worked fine, then an update broke it. It was a power management issue. Mainline Linux won't include something like wake locks, because the maintainers get paid to produce an always at full power server OS.

As for H.264, it's not included by default, and requires changing the base OS image to Bluefin. Then the launch arguments for browsers need to changed.

I phrased that post poorly. The main issue is that software I need doesn't work. Those 2 above are main fixable issues. Compare that to Windows problems that are fixed by going into a GUI and untoggling a few things.
 
For starters it's unintuitive. Second, too much cli, I can't remember the command from one config to another. Thirdly, too damned much security, all of my networking is local so I don't need any damned security. and last but not least, the vast majority of howtos on the web are outdated, don't work or are just plain wrong. I did manage to find a relatively easy way to connect to a Windows share using Nemo connect to server but it remembers nothing so it's a PITA if I have to connect more than twice. As far as connecting Linux to Linux, that's where it really sucks. I have never been able to get it to work and gave up in disgust a long time ago.
I've never used the CLI to set up networking under Linux, and I've certainly never had a problem with too much security regarding networking under Linux - the process is no less intuitive than the same process under MacOS.

While I don't use Nemo, adding network shares under Dolphin works fine. Once a share is mapped, you can add it to 'Remote' under the LHS pane under Dolphin and access that share really no different to the same process under Windows. I'm sure Nemo has a similar process - although assuming you use Mint, I'm still of the opinion that Mint sucks as a distro.

As seen in the screenshot below, under 'Remote' I have two network shares added. One is my NAS, the other is on my other Linux PC:

Dolphin shares.png

Silverblue. It worked fine, then an update broke it.
Well if you make enough changes under an immutable distro, this will happen. It's the reason you don't use immutable distro's if you plan on making sweeping changes to the underlying OS.

As for H.264, it's not included by default, and requires changing the base OS image to Bluefin.
Once again, this sounds like the result of a poor distro choice due to the fact that by default Fedora (with the exception of Bluefin) don't include proprietary codecs, as the Fedora base believe in a FOSS only perspective. I run two Linux based systems here, one based on KDE Neon 6.6.5, the other based on CachyOS with Plasma 6.6.5, not once have I had to install H.265 or resort to launch arguments regarding browsers - at most I had to log into about:config under FF and enable one flag, hardly a complicated process.

All your problems seem to be a combination of Fedora's FOSS philosophy and the fact that you seemed somewhat insistent on using an immutable distro, and quite possibly made a few too many underlying changes. Immutable distro's are still a very new concept to the Linux world and are, IMHO, best avoided. Flatpak's are still the most reliable way to install software under an immutable distro, even though package layering exists, it can still result in issues regarding updating.
 
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immutable distro
Silverblue is not immutable. It's atomic. The issue was in GNOME, so it'd be the same in regular Fedora

about:config under FF
I don't use Firefox.

made a few too many DE/file manager changes
I made zero changes.

Immutable distro's are still a very new concept to the Linux
Debatable. Silverblue was released in 2018. The bigger issue is poor support for flatpaks. Neon has the same problem with flatpaks afaik.

insistent on using an immutable distro

The networking issue was not caused by Silverblue. It was a power management problem in GNOME. Once again, Silverblue is not immutable, and I made zero changes.

Fedora's FOSS philosophy
No, it's a licensing issue. Companies like RedHat can't include codecs by default without a risk of a lawsuit.
Neon requires ubuntu-restricted-extras too?
 
Silverblue is not immutable. It's atomic. The issue was in GNOME, so it'd be the same in regular Fedora
Most such Fedora based distro's are both atomic and immutable, and as stated it's a concept that's still very new to the Linux ecosystem. I see zero advantages to running an atomic/immutable type distro over a conventional distro, even for Linux newcomers. As for Gnome...Yeah, Gnome devs suck. Stick with Plasma and all is good in the world.

I don't use Firefox.
And yet I still fail to see just what's so hard about copy/pasting a few lines under your launcher, there's cases where I'm forced to do the same process regarding differing scenarios under Windows.

Debatable. Silverblue was released in 2018. The bigger issue is poor support for flatpaks. Neon has the same problem with flatpaks afaik.
It's not debatable at all, immutable/atomic distro's are in the grand scheme of things still very new to the Linux ecosystem when you consider the many, many years Linux has been released as a distro in it's many flavors, and often involve compromises you don't experience running a conventional non atomic/non immutable distro. As stated, for this reason I don't believe they're well suited to Linux newcomers. An update is effectively reinstalling the whole OS from scratch, making a file system such as btrfs an absolute necessity.

As for Neon and Flatpaks, I'm running a vast number of Flatpaks here, no issues whatsoever:

Neon Flatpaks.png
The networking issue was not caused by Silverblue. It was a power management problem in GNOME. Once again, Silverblue is not immutable, and I made zero changes.
And I've encountered power management issues under Windows in relation to both networking as well as USB devices, this isn't something limited to Linux. In relation to Silverblue being immutable, this is covered above. As for Gnome, it's another hot topic covered above - I haven't used Gnome since the advent of GTK3.

No, it's a licensing issue. Companies like RedHat can't include codecs by default without a risk of a lawsuit.
Neon requires ubuntu-restricted-extras too?
No doubt there are licensing issues regarding H.264, but as stated most distro's based on Fedora don't allow for the installation of even ffmpeg, full stop - there's no option upon OS install to even opt in to the package. In comparison, distro's like anything based on Ubuntu LTS (HWE), or distro's such as CachyOS definitely provide the option on install to install ffmpeg as part of the OOTB installation process - meaning H.264 is supported OOTB.

Your problem regarding codecs is 100% a Fedora issue, and Fedora does not reflect Linux as a whole.
 
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