$2,500 RTX-5090 ( 60% faster than 4090 )

LukeTbk said:
88.8% of AD102 (4090) vs 97.6% of GA102 (3090), on similar memory bandwith with DDR7 not ready:

View attachment 640552

Around 65% faster, in the low end of that 60%-80% expectation.

Lovelace power-core scaling is not that good, but a 97.6% activated AD102 would probably reach that 70% higher performance, Lovelace ended up not pushed at all and with no memory bandiwth increase, lot of product getting the 18176 core good chips sold at much higher pricing than the 4090.


Was it designed to be a 18xxx core-550watt model at some point and time that looked to be 60-80% above the 3090-3090TI, maybe.

The 380mm lovelace (4080) ended up easily higher than that 60%-80% boost from the 392mm Ampere.

Unlike Ampere->Lovelace, I doubt they will achieve this kind of boost while reducing the die and memory bus, the boost solely from how much better of a node they upgrade too should be much smaller this time.

Reading now the idea that they would have any issue reaching RDNA 3 raster performance.... they were able to pretty much do it with a "4070"
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Just read the 2nd point on the slide about RDNA3 lmfao.
 
My guess is $1999 for FE cards. Especially if the performance jump is true.

Of course the entire pricing model regarding nvidia cards is outrageous, but is this such a ridiculous prediction?
 
Toboggan said:
At what point do we realize that image quality only gets so good and that we don't really care about the games or the details that go by our screen faster than our eyes can process, but we find ourselves in a cesspool of bragging rights about getting just a little bit more excess than our friends and brothers?
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Truth is that's a really dumb mindset that I refuse to indulge in. Yes, can I spend 2500 on a gpu without breaking the bank? Sure I can but for what benefit? When does it start to not make any sense? The herd mentality plays a role here at a site like Hardocp. People fall into the mindset of being an enthusiast therefore I must spend money on enthusiasts toys like 2500.00 gpus. At this stage of my life that mindset no longer makes a bit of sense to me compared to my 30 year old self. I can take that 2500.00 and go buy some stock or something. :)
 
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cesarioFL71 said:
At this stage of my life that mindset no longer makes a bit of sense to me compared to my 30 year old self. I can take that 2500.00 and go buy some stock or something.
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I think you have it in reverse a little bit..... older you get the more it make sense to spend money on non-sense luxury like a new car or expensive gaming stuff-tv-etc....

Young is specially the time to buy stock.
 
LukeTbk said:
I think you have it in reverse a little bit..... older you get the more it make sense to spend money on non-sense luxury like a new car or expensive gaming stuff-tv-etc....

Young is specially the time to buy stock.
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I agree on purchasing stock when you're young as time is your best ally in that regard, but no matter how old I get I won't justify wasteful spending which is exactly what 2500.00 gpus are. Sure, I can afford it but to me it's a waste of money. Also, nothing is sadder than that old guy driving around in the new corvette in an attempt to recapture his youth. Oh almost forgot....can't leave out the expensive sugar momma while you're at it. 😉
 
cesarioFL71 said:
Truth is that's a really dumb mindset that I refuse to indulge in. Yes, can I spend 2500 on a gpu without braking the bank? Sure I can but for what benefit? When does it start to not make any sense? The herd mentality plays a role here at a site like Hardocp. People fall into the mindset of being an enthusiast therefore I must spend money on enthusiasts toys like 2500.00 gpus. At this stage of my life that mindset no longer makes a bit of sense to me compared to my 30 year old self. I can take that 2500.00 and go buy some stock or something. :)
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My mindset is a little different. I did spend for the faster video card (not near $2,500 at the time) because I still game a bit but not like I used to. Though this PC will last me well into when I don't want to game as much. I don't really see myself upgrading anymore after this. I won't consider the purchase a waste as long as I use it and it's not just sitting there collecting dust.
 
Niner said:
My mindset is a little different. I did spend for the faster video card (not near $2,500 at the time) because I still game a bit but not like I used to. Though this PC will last me well into when I don't want to game as much. I don't really see myself upgrading anymore after this. I won't consider the purchase a waste as long as I use it and it's not just sitting there collecting dust.
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That approach is practical and assuming you keep the gpu and game for years afterwards then it makes sense. However the majority of these 2500.00 gpus will be purchased by "enthusiasts" who will in turn sell that gpu and upgrade after 2-3 years to the next shiney thing Nvidia puts out, allowing Nvidia to continue to raise prices, and the cycle continues until 10 years from now the average price of a gpu is what......4k?
 
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cesarioFL71 said:
That approach is practical and assuming you keep the gpu and game for years afterwards then it makes sense. However the majority of these 2500.00 gpus will be purchased by "enthusiasts" who will in turn sell that gpu and upgrade after a 2-3 years to the next shiney thing Nvidia puts out, allowing Nvidia to continue to raise prices and the cycle continues until 10 years from now the average price of a gpu is what......4k?
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You could be right on the $4K cost. That's another reason I'm riding out this rig for as long as I can. The prices along with more and more power consumption are my main reasons to maybe justify a new hobby by then.
 
Niner said:
You could be right on the $4K cost. That's another reason I'm riding out this rig for as long as I can. The prices along with more and more power consumption are my main reasons to maybe justify a new hobby by then.
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It'll be 4k and they'll have a rental option that's like 2-300 dollars a month.
 
Decko87 said:
It'll be 4k and they'll have a rental option that's like 2-300 dollars a month.
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Rent a gpu you won't immediatey own to play games you don't actually own? The logo "F**ck That Shite!" will be the new meme and t-shirt of the day for this "gamer" when that crap happens.
 
Isn´t any 5090 sold to gamers a loss since it could have been sold as the lowest tier of business gpu for ten times more?

I would rather call suggest that the 5090 will be a halo product with the hashest price tag imaginable.

2,499.00 from Nvidia
2,989.00 from Asus

They will be so scarce that a shitty "free pc" wil be offered as a bundle before they lower the price.
 
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Carlyle2020 said:
Isn´t any 5090 sold to gamers a loss since it could have been sold as the lowest tier of business gpu for ten times more?

I would rather call suggest that the 5090 will be a halo product with the hashest price tag imaginable.

2,499.00 from Nvidia
2,989.00 from Asus
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Diversification. Just like an investment portfolio where not every investment is equally profitable, diversification is important. If you put everything into the single most profitable item, what happens if/when that dries up? Abandoning gamers for X amount of years then trying to re-enter the market is a much tougher ask then maintaining your customer base.
 
Carlyle2020 said:
Isn´t any 5090 sold to gamers a loss since it could have been sold as the lowest tier of business gpu for ten times more?

I would rather call suggest that the 5090 will be a halo product with the hashest price tag imaginable.

2,499.00 from Nvidia
2,989.00 from Asus

They will be so scarce that a shitty "free pc" wil be offered as a bundle deal before they lower the price.
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Then the 5080 will be the same price as the existing 4090, with the same performance to boot. (Just my opinion.)
 
Carlyle2020 said:
Isn´t any 5090 sold to gamers a loss since it could have been sold as the lowest tier of business gpu for ten times more?
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You can achieve for that to not be an big issue by not using a lot of them go to that sku and have it being sold out in the first 48 hours without much refill the first 2 months. So when the eveything we do that can be sold $10k instead try up you do not have to change the price of the 5090, do not have to have the rest of the skus pricing matching the very high price, the bad press around the launch and so on.

ManofGod said:
Then the 5080 will be the same price as the existing 4090, with the same performance to boot. (Just my opinion.)
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Doubt it, the 3080->4080 jump was much bigger than that (around 50%), they tried the $1200 price point for the 4080 that did not stick because the 4080 was beating the $1600 3090 by 30%, so it offered much better performance at a much lower price.

What would be the point of $1800-$2000 USD 5080 over the 4090 ? Would need quite the new tech that is not supported in Lovelace for that to be possible.
 
ManofGod said:
Then the 5080 will be the same price as the existing 4090, with the same performance to boot. (Just my opinion.)
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That's a really poor gen on gen improvement if the 5080 only matches the 4090. I'd expect the 5070 to match the 4090.
 
Manny Calavera said:
65+% faster Raster, 85+% faster Real World RT perf, same ram amount but GDDR7
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That would be a new Nvidia Pascal moments....

The 1080 at launch was 65% faster than the 980 at 1440p, bit less at 1080p, while costing more. The 1070 was also around 65% more than the 970 in performance, while costing more.

This would be a price cut versus the current street price ($1800-2000) for a Pascal performance jump.

The 5070 super class card having a 65% would turn it in a 4090 basically, the 5060Ti card would beat the 3090.
 
Sir Beregond said:
That's a really poor gen on gen improvement if the 5080 only matches the 4090. I'd expect the 5070 to match the 4090.
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You could be right but, I am looking at it more towards Nvidia just looking to make the money, not caring about the user. (That is fine, I just do not see Nvidia not trying to push the envelope on prices.)
 
Sir Beregond said:
That's a really poor gen on gen improvement if the 5080 only matches the 4090. I'd expect the 5070 to match the 4090.
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It would be a 25-30% performance uplift, it is relatively standard over the past 20 years. I wouldn't say it's a "poor gen on gen improvement". There have been generations were we only saw a 15-20% uplift.

There are a few generations that stand out that exceeded that: Ada Lovelace, Pascal, Kepler
 
LittleBuddy said:
There are a few generations that stand out that exceeded that: Ada Lovelace, Pascal, Kepler
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Can be hard to put a precise gen to gen but Ampere ? At launch at 1440p the 3080 was 50% faster than the 2080, 42% faster than the 2080 super, at 4k the gap was bigger

The 2080 was 37% faster than the 1080 at 1440p, 45% at 4k.

Some xx70 matching the previous top line has not been uncommon in recent time, 3070 was close to the 2080TI, 4070ti about the 3090TI while the 4070 super was around the 3090, maybe not the 5070 but the 5070 super or super TI or TI matching a 4090 would not be out of line.

It depends how vast the gap become between the 5090 and 5080 I guess, if the 5090 is +25/30% the 5080 and the 5080 match the 4090, that will be a deception for the 5090 model for sure.
 
Honestly, spending more than a Grand on a Video card is kind of pointless for most normal people. I consider myself a gamer and I like playing 4K60 and the 7900XTX has been more than sufficient for that purpose. I just keep thinking I paid like 700 for my 1080Ti and then 900 for my 2080Ti Black Ed... and most people screamed about that 900 (generally 1000+) price tag on that generation. I still have it, granted I had to RMA the thing like 3 times to get one that wasn't a part of Nvidia's 1-2% Failure batch (which was a total lie, it was like 15-25%) and it's still capable.

There is a use case for every graphics card in every generation of them. Bragging rights is, amazingly, one of those things that never seems to disappear. I'm stuck in that pay bracket that hasn't budged in 2 years, 24 bucks an hour with not much better available in this economy. It's safer to sit here and wait for a regime change than jump ship... but I'm hurting in this economy. I guess my real question is How many of you can afford to keep shelling out more money each generation to Nvidia for +25% or so performance (without screen trickery and stuff like FSR)? I am gonna be stuck on my 13900K with my 7900XTX for a long time as far as I can tell.

Even if I hadn't just dumped 5K into an engagement ring... These card prices are starting to get ridiculous.
 
cesarioFL71 said:
Truth is that's a really dumb mindset that I refuse to indulge in. Yes, can I spend 2500 on a gpu without breaking the bank? Sure I can but for what benefit? When does it start to not make any sense? The herd mentality plays a role here at a site like Hardocp. People fall into the mindset of being an enthusiast therefore I must spend money on enthusiasts toys like 2500.00 gpus. At this stage of my life that mindset no longer makes a bit of sense to me compared to my 30 year old self. I can take that 2500.00 and go buy some stock or something. :)
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This whole idea is missing a ton of perspective, I think.

To some, high end PC gaming desktop hardware is a hobby, nothing more. Spending $1000-$2000 on a new "thing" for your hobby every few years isn't that unheard of if it makes you happy.

Take a step back and look at hobbies in general. Car guys, for example. $2000 for a new set of wheels is going to get you some relatively cheap wheels. A fancy mountain bike can easily be over $2000. (well over, if you are into the good stuff).

The list goes on and on, if you just look at this stuff for what it is, a hobby, its really not that big of a deal if there are people willing to pay it. I think people lose a little perspective thinking way too much about PC parts specifically and not the wider picture of hobbies.
 
criccio said:
This whole idea is missing a ton of perspective, I think.

To some, high end PC gaming desktop hardware is a hobby, nothing more. Spending $1000-$2000 on a new "thing" for your hobby every few years isn't that unheard of if it makes you happy.

Take a step back and look at hobbies in general. Car guys, for example. $2000 for a new set of wheels is going to get you some relatively cheap wheels. A fancy mountain bike can easily be over $2000. (well over, if you are into the good stuff).

The list goes on and on, if you just look at this stuff for what it is, a hobby, its really not that big of a deal if there are people willing to pay it. I think people lose a little perspective thinking way too much about PC parts specifically and not the wider picture of hobbies.
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The problem is that the wheels will last you a couple years, the mountain bike might last a decade or more...

People are dropping 1-2K+ annually on graphics cards. Hell, I just picked up a no-name branded set (quad) of tires for my Accord, at Sams Club, that cost 515 Bucks after taxes that will last me, probably 3+ years. They're rated well enough, they are good in all weather conditions and I'm arguably gonna get a shitload more use out of em than my 7900XTX I paid a grand for.

Comparing Computer hardware to tires or a mountain bike doesn't equate properly.

You want to talk about a waste of money... the 5G's I dropped on that engagement ring only for the relationship to crater 2 months later was rough. However, it's still a bad comparison. Theoretically, the ring should have been the best investment I ever made and lasted us a lifetime...
 
Legendary Gamer said:
Comparing Computer hardware to tires or a mountain bike doesn't equate properly.
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I'm just grabbing things to make an example, but I agree. Though, you don't have to upgrade annually, that's just a choice thing, you could do that with anything even the examples I listed. Trust me, there are nutty people in every hobby that "upgrade" more often than they need to. If its bringing you joy, what's the big deal?
 
Anyway, you guys are either gonna drop the money or you're not. The people that frequent this site have all kinds of excuses to invest in the latest and greatest stuff. I can't find any fault in any of it anymore. I'm stuck sitting, waiting for some game to make my 7900XTX show it's age. Haven't seen it yet and probably be a while before I really worry about it.

BUT THATS JUST ME

I come here, because you crazy muthafuckas are constantly upgrading and without your amazing desire to dump shitloads of money into this stuff... I would not have a place to find the best goddamn advice on the planet. The [H] is the one stop shop for thousands of different perspectives and experiences and justifications. Love this place. Don't know what I would do without it.
 
criccio said:
I'm just grabbing things to make an example, but I agree. Though, you don't have to upgrade annually, that's just a choice thing, you could do that with anything even the examples I listed. Trust me, there are nutty people in every hobby that "upgrade" more often than they need to. If its bringing you joy, what's the big deal?
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Couldn't agree more. Though my current rigs will probably be my last for gaming purposes as I just don't do it enough anymore to justify the cost.
 
Legendary Gamer said:
Anyway, you guys are either gonna drop the money or you're not. The people that frequent this site have all kinds of excuses to invest in the latest and greatest stuff. I can't find any fault in any of it anymore. I'm stuck sitting, waiting for some game to make my 7900XTX show it's age. Haven't seen it yet and probably be a while before I really worry about it.

BUT THATS JUST ME

I come here, because you crazy muthafuckas are constantly upgrading and without your amazing desire to dump shitloads of money into this stuff... I would not have a place to find the best goddamn advice on the planet. The [H] is the one stop shop for thousands of different perspectives and experiences and justifications. Love this place. Don't know what I would do without it.
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I'm on my 7900 XTX wondering what game is worth the price of a 4090 after I paid 825 for this. As cool as path traced cyberpunk would be I'm not really interested, I finished the game a year ago. I played Metro and control with RT at 1440p on a 3060 ti years ago. There's still nothing worth the money. I'm not dropping 2.5k on a 5090 for 4k path traced portal, a game I beat over a decade ago. Diablo 4's RT is shadows and reflections only, so that's out the window now as well. If you watch the preview videos it's hard to even tell a difference. Alan Wake 2 is the only convincing new title I've seen with proper RT, but that alone isn't enough to get me to drop the cash. The fact of the matter is RT won't really be a thing until consoles are using it regularly. Maybe once the PS5 pro is out for a few years and PS 6 is on the way we'll start getting more good games with native RT, until then I don't care.


Seriously what is the point of this? Losing 30-50 % of your performance for what exactly? A slightly better reflection in water you'll be in for half a second and less sharp shadows.


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k4NYCr1ynb4
 
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Decko87 said:
Alan Wake 2 is the only convincing new title I've seen with proper RT
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Avatar Frontier had quite good one, because it was an AMD promoted title it was not a large part of their marketing too.

And it is a rare (first, still only ?) AAA games that not a special edition a la Metro Exodus RT that always use hardware RT if it is available without asking the user, the game look different on RDNA 1 card or pascal. Game like build up that assume RT will be on (Jedi Survivor was an other one that assume RT will be used) could get common.
 
LukeTbk said:
Avatar Frontier had quite good one, because it was an AMD promoted title it was not a large part of their marketing too.

And it is a rare (first, still only ?) AAA games that not a special edition a la Metro Exodus RT that always use hardware RT if it is available without asking the user, the game look different on RDNA 1 card or pascal. Game like build up that assume RT will be on (Jedi Survivor was an other one that assume RT will be used) could get common.
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Could but hasn't, it won't until consoles can do it IMO. It's the largest install base. I forgot about jedi survivor because it ran like dog water on everything. I also just don't like those games in general. Avatar to me is really the first bell weather of things to come, but I still don't see it being common yet. Maybe in 2-3 years.
 
DooKey said:
So much concern about what others spend their money on.
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I don't think it's that as much as the fact that others showing a willingness to spend insane amounts of money on a good video card means the rest of us have to as well when we want to upgrade.
 
HockeyJon said:
I don't think it's that as much as the fact that others showing a willingness to spend insane amounts of money on a good video card means the rest of us have to as well when we want to upgrade.
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I don't feel a bit responsible for your spending. Plenty of deals for cards that don't cost as much as a halo card. AMD is glad to sell you a lessor card for less money. Buy AMD and it's not a problem.
 
DooKey said:
I don't feel a bit responsible for your spending. Plenty of deals for cards that don't cost as much as a halo card. AMD is glad to sell you a lessor card for less money. Buy AMD and it's not a problem.
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Right? 7900XTX going for $800 and 4080 Super for $1000 and they offer plenty of performance for 99% of people. And those aren't necessarily flying off the shelves so there is no bullshit about people's willingness to buy expensive GPUs. What people spend on the halo 4090 is going to have very little impact on the GPU's that everyone else buys.
 
DooKey said:
I don't feel a bit responsible for your spending. Plenty of deals for cards that don't cost as much as a halo card. AMD is glad to sell you a lessor card for less money. Buy AMD and it's not a problem.
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I’m not talking about halo cards. The pricing of the entire GPU stack has been rising, and the more people show a willingness to spend excessive amounts of money on the cards, the more companies know they can charge. That’s why gamers are annoyed. It’s not about what others want to do with their money.

I own Nvidia shares so, frankly, I’m glad you’re willing to shell out for a 4090. Please buy two actually. Maybe even three. The more you buy, the more you save.
 
MistaSparkul said:
Right? 7900XTX going for $800 and 4080 Super for $1000 and they offer plenty of performance for 99% of people. And those aren't necessarily flying off the shelves so there is no bullshit about people's willingness to buy expensive GPUs. What people spend on the halo 4090 is going to have very little impact on the GPU's that everyone else buys.
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The 3080 had an MSRP of $699. The 4080 launched two years later with an MSRP of $1199. That’s a sharp increase in 80-series cards in a single generation. Why do you think that is? Because the market told Nvidia they were fine paying more, or at least a segment did and Nvidia decided to test the waters. That’s why people are “concerned about what others spend their money on”, because it’s raising prices across the board.
 
HockeyJon said:
The 3080 had an MSRP of $699. The 4080 launched two years later with an MSRP of $1199. That’s a sharp increase in 80-series cards in a single generation. Why do you think that is? Because the market told Nvidia they were fine paying more, or at least a segment did and Nvidia decided to test the waters. That’s why people are “concerned about what others spend their money on”, because it’s raising prices across the board.
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Maybe to match the same markup of profit of their AI chips?
 
Ziggy_Stardog said:
Maybe to match the same markup of profit of their AI chips?
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I have no doubt this is also a contributing factor, but the bottom line is that they will charge what the market will bear. As long as market participants signal they will pay more, companies will charge more, which is why the rest of consumers are annoyed with “how other people spend their money”, and the price increases have not been limited to halo tier products (if it were, far fewer would care).

I don’t anticipate price declines going forward in any case. The 60 series cards are recently getting a 10% price increase because Nvidia is just making less if demand goes down, specifically because they know the AI guys will buy up whatever the gaming market isn’t interested in.
 
HockeyJon said:
The 3080 had an MSRP of $699. The 4080 launched two years later with an MSRP of $1199. That’s a sharp increase in 80-series cards in a single generation. Why do you think that is? Because the market told Nvidia they were fine paying more, or at least a segment did and Nvidia decided to test the waters. That’s why people are “concerned about what others spend their money on”, because it’s raising prices across the board.
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No it isn't, that was because of crypto. The 4080 launched for $1200 then the 4080 Super dropped it to $1000 despite people buying up the 4090 like mad for AI. Why do you think that is?
 
I think the 5090 FE will land at $1599. The performance increase over previous gen is generally expected. They've built LHR cards, so if the consumer GPU's can be kept out of the AI boom in the same way, demand will not be insane and prices should be normal.

Keep in mind, Nvidia wants to sell the chips that are going to get used for AI work at a much higher price, so I suspect they will put in limiters for consumer GPU's to keep them from being repurposed.
We can hope I guess.
 
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