Germany Gets 85% of Its Electricity from Renewables in Record-Breaking Weekend

People also forget how polluted coal is as a source. Uranium, thorium, arsenic, mercury, lead etc. All gets burned and a lot goes up the chimney and spreads over the area.

Funny how environmentalists always bring this up when touting renewables, but somehow this isn't a good enough reason to go with Nuclear, even though Nuclear doesn't pollute anything and is the only tech realistically able to replace Coal.
 
God, I love how the anti-renewals argument has evolved.
Used to be no it can't be done, nooo way Jose!
This would accompanied with power numbers, and solar efficiency numbers, and so on.
You know it was just IMPOSSIBLE.
Well serious people have done serious studies, and you can substitute ALL of it, with current technology.. and then countries just keep on moving towards it, demostrating it so..
So, the arguments morphs (probably as prescribed by right wing media).. think of the BIRDS! (but when its logging and endangered owls, its a punch line)..
Or think of the RARE EARTH MINERALS! (but when it comes to all manner of disposable electronics we use now a days, its freedom and freemarket or some such bullshit)
Or mining!, its is soooooo destructive! as if MINING for coal is not, as if mining for oil isn't either.
FUCK!, how stupid can someone be.

Your fucking iPhone goes in the bin, along millions of similar devices, oil, gas, coal gets burned, and never does anything else.

Wind are solar become an infrastructure that will capture power for decades.
 
Funny how environmentalists always bring this up when touting renewables, but somehow this isn't a good enough reason to go with Nuclear, even though Nuclear doesn't pollute anything and is the only tech realistically able to replace Coal.
The way we do nuclear now, its a disaster. we are doing nothing with the waste. I think canada and russia (maybe one other?) are the only few who reproccess waste.
We where supposed to work with russia in some fashion on re-processing, so after pretty much making fun of them, and telling ourselfs they'll never finish, we pulled out, and they finished their plant anyway.
Throrium makes way more sense and china is perusing it.
 
God, I love how the anti-renewals argument has evolved.
Used to be no it can't be done, nooo way Jose!
This would accompanied with power numbers, and solar efficiency numbers, and so on.
You know it was just IMPOSSIBLE.
Well serious people have done serious studies, and you can substitute ALL of it, with current technology.. and then countries just keep on moving towards it, demostrating it so..

Because we're talking about groups of people who live in two totally different worlds. To those in the real world, something that forces power costs to quaduple or worse is, in-fact, synonymous with "impossible", because they can't fucking afford it. To most environmentalists, cost is not a concern.

So, the arguments morphs (probably as prescribed by right wing media).. think of the BIRDS! (but when its logging and endangered owls, its a punch line)..

No one who brought up that argument gives a shit about birds, it's just funny to point out how those who do care about the birds constantly move their goal posts when the topic changes.

Or think of the RARE EARTH MINERALS! (but when it comes to all manner of disposable electronics we use now a days, its freedom and freemarket or some such bullshit)

Main reason this was brought up in this thread was because people were saying Nuclear wouldn't work because Uranium is rare. Worthless argument when the materials required to create many renewables are even more rare.
 
The way we do nuclear now, its a disaster. we are doing nothing with the waste.

This might come as a surprise to you, but Nuclear waste safely stored in a containment facility doesn't harm anything. We don't have to "do" anything with it. It would be like the equivalent of Coal if absolutely NO gases were exhausted into the atmosphere, but were instead fully collected and stored. Doesn't mean that what they collect would be "safe", but it wouldn't be harming the environment any worse than renewables either.
 
Funny how environmentalists always bring this up when touting renewables, but somehow this isn't a good enough reason to go with Nuclear, even though Nuclear doesn't pollute anything and is the only tech realistically able to replace Coal.

I am fine with nuclear as a baseline. But coal still has to go.
 
People also forget how polluted coal is as a source. Uranium, thorium, arsenic, mercury, lead etc. All gets burned and a lot goes up the chimney and spreads over the area.
Not with coal gasification it doesn't. They use coal to make syngas, which can be burned or converted into LNG, methanol, or gasoline. The only big "pollutant" in the process is lots of carbon-dioxide release, but we don't know for sure that's a bad thing.

All the other byproducts of coal gasification are useful, making plastic additives, tar for roads, fertilizers, you name it, and people often forget that if you eliminate that technology you also eliminate all the byproducts that we rely on too. I mean, could you imagine a world without plastic for example? Fossil fuels are super useful beyond just energy.

Cleaning heavy particulates, sulfur, nox, from the "coal burning" process was accomplished ages ago in clean coal plants.
 
Not with coal gasification it doesn't. They use coal to make syngas, which can be burned or converted into LNG, methanol, or gasoline. The only big "pollutant" in the process is lots of carbon-dioxide release, but we don't know for sure that's a bad thing.

All the other byproducts of coal gasification are useful, making plastic additives, tar for roads, fertilizers, you name it, and people often forget that if you eliminate that technology you also eliminate all the byproducts that we rely on too. I mean, could you imagine a world without plastic for example? Fossil fuels are super useful beyond just energy.

Cleaning heavy particulates, sulfur, nox, from the "coal burning" process was accomplished ages ago in clean coal plants.

In Denmark we have some of, if not the most cleanest coal power plants in the world including highest utilization rate of the energy. And no, they still pollute like crazy.

But again, other energy sources are cheaper than coal so its game over.
 
In Denmark we have some of, if not the most cleanest coal power plants in the world including highest utilization rate of the energy. And no, they still pollute like crazy.

But again, other energy sources are cheaper than coal so its game over.
1) Says who?
2) Denmark has an energy shortage and imports power to keep the lights on.
3) Coal is abundant and cheap (which is why it spurred the industrial revolution). The only reason coal isn't cheap is when your government massively taxes coal and heavily subsidizes alternatives.
 
1) Says who?
2) Denmark has an energy shortage and imports power to keep the lights on.
3) Coal is abundant and cheap (which is why it spurred the industrial revolution). The only reason coal isn't cheap is when your government massively taxes coal and heavily subsidizes alternatives.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avedøre_Power_Station
Know any more efficient than 94%?

We import and export a lot of energy. It all depends on the current pricing. We are easily self supplied if that's your question.

Norway for example currently have a net surplus of 4.5Gw of hydro power that is cheap in the grid.

Coal have been subsidized in head and rear end for ages. And no, coal loses on equal terms. Try check what it cost to build a modern coal plant today, its anything but cheap.
 
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Not with coal gasification it doesn't. They use coal to make syngas, which can be burned or converted into LNG, methanol, or gasoline. The only big "pollutant" in the process is lots of carbon-dioxide release, but we don't know for sure that's a bad thing.

All the other byproducts of coal gasification are useful, making plastic additives, tar for roads, fertilizers, you name it, and people often forget that if you eliminate that technology you also eliminate all the byproducts that we rely on too. I mean, could you imagine a world without plastic for example? Fossil fuels are super useful beyond just energy.

Cleaning heavy particulates, sulfur, nox, from the "coal burning" process was accomplished ages ago in clean coal plants.

Gotta agree with you on the other uses of oil, and coal and such. But there's one big reason, every time, I want/like renewables. They'll kill me with too much exposure. Sure a lot of pollutants can do that, but I still think we would live in a better world without them in the air.
 
I wasn't questioning efficiency, I was questioning your comment that it "pollutes like crazy".
We import and export a lot of energy. It all depends on the current pricing. We are easily self supplied if that's your question.
No you're not, and it has nothing to do with pricing. It has to do with whether or not its windy. Like solar, wind is an intermittent and inconsistent power source, which means that occasionally there's overproduction and luckily they can sell that to nearby countries. On other days they have shortages, and have to buy electricity accordingly: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/12/13/renewables-produce-56-denmarks-domestic-electricity/
Coal have been subsidized in head and rear end for ages.
Source? Alternative energy enjoys large subsidies, and coal has always been taxed with that increasing drastically in recent years. The reason that the majority of the world's power production is coal, particularly in developing nations, is not because its more expensive... that makes no sense. C'mon now. Coal and NG are inexpensive and abundant power sources.
 
I wasn't questioning efficiency, I was questioning your comment that it "pollutes like crazy".

No you're not, and it has nothing to do with pricing. It has to do with whether or not its windy. Like solar, wind is an intermittent and inconsistent power source, which means that occasionally there's overproduction and luckily they can sell that to nearby countries. On other days they have shortages, and have to buy electricity accordingly: https://cleantechnica.com/2016/12/13/renewables-produce-56-denmarks-domestic-electricity/

Source? Alternative energy enjoys large subsidies, and coal has always been taxed with that increasing drastically in recent years. The reason that the majority of the world's power production is coal, particularly in developing nations, is not because its more expensive... that makes no sense. C'mon now. Coal and NG are inexpensive and abundant power sources.

Because they still pollute with heavy metals.

In Denmark power stations can react within 15 minutes of a change in the power mix. So its no surprise as wind generate more and more power than it takes up a bigger part of the mix. But it doesn't mean we need wind. In Denmark we have a power plant capacity of 5229Mw, not including smaller stations and waste burning facilities. Yet the national peak is around 4500Mw. While this capacity is rarely if ever used anymore. Its still there. And a lot are running while not needed for electricity but rather heating. We are working on doing heat pumps now, but else in winter, we can end up generating quite an alarming amount of power because we dont use electricity for heating.
http://www.en.plan.aau.dk/digitalAssets/154/154785_nordic-wind-power-conference.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_power_stations_in_Denmark
http://www.cnbc.com/2017/02/02/denmarks-largest-energy-company-to-stop-using-coal-by-2023.html

Most of the windfarms constructed are out at sea where there is a lot more wind. They also get build up higher where there is always wind.

Using developing countries with low tech grid is a really bad example.

This is just 2013 numbers, not including historical data. But it shouldn't be a surprise. New energy forms have to compete against established. A 20 or 50 year old power plant vs a new construction.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-with-550-billion-in-subsidy-hurt-renewables
https://www.ft.com/content/fb264f96-5088-11e6-8172-e39ecd3b86fc
https://www.theguardian.com/environ...sidising-worlds-biggest-fossil-fuel-companies
GR262Xcarbon_tax_modern_energy_SR_CHART.png
 
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Ahh, the ad hominem begins.

I "must hate life."

I "am not your intellectual equal. (I am stupid.)"

This is how it works. You show that the cult is totally faith-based, and the cult responds, not by embracing their faith, but by destroying the non-believer. This is the equivalent of every other liberal movement: any dissent is shouted down, banned, or the individual attacked. Thanks.

Ok, I may have been a little too harsh in one of the things I said toward you so I am sorry about that. What I am trying to communicate to you is the following. What you are expressing isn't "dissent" since you understand neither the science you doubt nor the anti-science you use to "counter" it. It isn't enough to find a link on globalwarmingfraud666.geocities.com, throw it out and insist "You have to take my viewpoint seriously or else you're a cultist." No, I don't, and if I pretended I did I would be doing you a disservice along with everyone else reading what you write who starts to think "Gee, maybe the science isn't settled after all."

"But you aren't an Earth scientist. Why are you allowed to weigh in?" Because I *don't* weigh in on the specific science involved. I weigh in on the clear gross sloppiness and innacuracies to be trivially found in this "dissenting" articles and I weigh in on the how the scientific process is carried out, something I *am* experienced in.

"But that's disingenuous since you still clearly believe global warming to be real." Far enough. That's what peer review is for. Peer review means that the *real* experts in that field have looked into the research and found it to be credible. Flaws in methodology and hasty conclusions would have been identified and corrected before the paper was published / accepted. I'm allowed to defer to the scientific consensus without it being based on faith *because the scientific method is the best methodology by far which we have for determining how we think the world works*. Peer review provides a specific checkpoint where experts are asserting that science is what was really being done.

There isn't going to be a shortcut for you to be taken seriously on this topic without doing the hard work of actually understanding the science involved.
 
Ok, I may have been a little too harsh in one of the things I said toward you so I am sorry about that. What I am trying to communicate to you is the following. What you are expressing isn't "dissent" since you understand neither the science you doubt nor the anti-science you use to "counter" it. It isn't enough to find a link on globalwarmingfraud666.geocities.com, throw it out and insist "You have to take my viewpoint seriously or else you're a cultist." No, I don't, and if I pretended I did I would be doing you a disservice along with everyone else reading what you write who starts to think "Gee, maybe the science isn't settled after all."

"But you aren't an Earth scientist. Why are you allowed to weigh in?" Because I *don't* weigh in on the specific science involved. I weigh in on the clear gross sloppiness and innacuracies to be trivially found in this "dissenting" articles and I weigh in on the how the scientific process is carried out, something I *am* experienced in.

"But that's disingenuous since you still clearly believe global warming to be real." Far enough. That's what peer review is for. Peer review means that the *real* experts in that field have looked into the research and found it to be credible. Flaws in methodology and hasty conclusions would have been identified and corrected before the paper was published / accepted. I'm allowed to defer to the scientific consensus without it being based on faith *because the scientific method is the best methodology by far which we have for determining how we think the world works*. Peer review provides a specific checkpoint where experts are asserting that science is what was really being done.

There isn't going to be a shortcut for you to be taken seriously on this topic without doing the hard work of actually understanding the science involved.

Thank you.

First, let's stay on a rational basis. Do not assume that I do not understand the science involved. I understand it as well as anyone else.

Second, I will always state, or make obvious, any biases I have, such that if they are recognized, anyone can adjust for them, as needed.

Third, with the above in mind, I am a sceptic when it comes to the "science" of man-made global climate change. This is a point of contention for most, and is the area in need of clarity.

Fourth, I want clean air, drinkable water, and all the other end-states that I think every rational person wants. I am not a nihilist who doesn't care if the earth is a desert wasteland after I'm gone.

Fifth, (keeping in mind my second point), I see nuclear fusion as the long-term solution for baseline energy, coupled with a distributed power generation system. Renewables certainly have a place.
 
Let's look at renewable power and set aside any pollution/climate change debate for a moment.

Any approach to using solar and wind power in a gridded electrical generation system has to take into account the fact that both sources of power generation are unpredictable on the time scales which are used for the power grid. They are currently, at best, supplementary sources.

Every modern country uses a gridded power system. There's a large power generation station which sends electricity out along high voltage lines, gradually stepping down to the individual user. Other power generation stations are linked to the same high voltage lines. That's pretty well known, but needs to be kept in mind when discussing solar and wind (and to a lesser extent geothermal and hydro.) This allows very high efficiency to be attained by the large power generation stations. The other benefits of gridded systems are redundancy, resiliency (based on the grid capacity), and uniformity of supplied power.

It's nice that we all can use the same electrical devices. In North America it's 120V @ 60Hz; In Europe it's 220-240V @ 50Hz.

Power companies (whether private, regulated, or totally government run) are all very similar. They are responsible for supplying the specified voltage and frequency electricity day in and day out. They know pretty closely how much electricity will be needed on a hot summer Monday, as compared to a mild summer Saturday, versus a sub-zero winter Wednesday. Seasonally, they produce a baseline. The exact electrical requirements change based on Season, Day, and then minute by minute (but within predictable parameters). Summer takes more power than Spring because of air conditioning, for example. Work weeks use more power than weekends. The hours of 5pm to 8pm are more energy intensive than 1am to 3am.

Basics, right? However, the understanding of how our power is supplied is fundamental to a rational approach.

The time to put a power generator on-line is different with each type of source. It takes a period of a week or so to get a coal-fired plant up to maximum thermal efficiency. Anything less will increase cost and pollution. Even if you hate coal, as long as any coal plant is operating, I'll assume that you, like me, want that plant operating at maximum efficiency. Nuclear power stations only take a day or so to get up to speed/maximum efficiency. Hydro is pretty fast. It's on the order of an hour; just open more gates and spin the water turbine. Gas turbines can provide nearly instantaneous power and get up to maximum efficiency (meaning most electricity per cubic amount of natural gas) in just a few hours.

Still with me? Thanks.

Here's how it all works.

The Power Authority (PA) is ready for the transition from Spring to Summer. They fire up another nuclear reactor (or coal plant) to get the baseline increased to deal with the demand they anticipate based on historical data, new users, and temperature. They cannot drop below 120V/60Hz. (I'm in North America, so I'll use N.A. standards.) If they drop, brownouts occur. If they go below that, blackouts. Without wind or solar, the usual solution is to have gas turbines on standby. If power need surges, the PA puts gas turbines on-line, as needed. Gas turbines can make electricity almost as fast as flicking a switch.

Remember, the baseline MUST be met. If not, blackouts happen.

Okay, let's look at using wind in this scenario.

If the grid DEPENDS on the wind power to supply capacity, it cannot be used to replace baseline production. (Historically, wind turbines produce 7% of the power they are capable of outputting. Newer models may increase that efficiency, but that's only going to nibble around the edges.) So, if an Authority demands that the PA use wind to produce, say, 1 Gigawatt of electricity, then 14 Gigawatts of wind turbine capacity must be installed. (14 x .07 ~ 1.00). This 1 Gigawatt can only be used to make up the daily/hourly power requirements, not the baseline. (That 7% is a worldwide average. Certain locations get more steady, reliable, wind. Others, obviously, get less.)

As soon as the wind drops, power supply drops. The PA MUST provide the right voltage or consumer electronic damage will occur. (Also, they'll lose their jobs. ;) ) At 5pm, as the needles flicker to the left and enter the yellow zone, what do they do? Easy: they use the gas turbines they have standing by. If wind is only creating 0.6 GW instead of 1.0, then they fire up enough gas turbines to create another 0.4 GW. Whew. Crisis averted. Wait! Now the needles are flickering to the right! The isobars on the wind chart are closer together. The wind is blowing strong and hard! It's making 0.9 GW. Cool. Shut down enough gas turbines so only 0.1 GW are coming from them. And so on for the season.

With NO wind power production installed, the PA has sufficient plants for the baseline, supplemental for the daily increase (weekdays use more than weekends so a nuclear reactor may get started on a Sunday and a different one shutdown on a Friday afternoon, for example) and they use gas turbines for the daily/hourly requirements.

Adding wind power production does not alleviate the need to have the SAME level of gas turbine backup. It must always be there. If it costs $1 Billion for the gas turbines to be installed without wind production facilities, it also costs $1 Billion for the gas turbines to be installed WITH wind production facilities.

Solar behaves the same way as wind power in this model. It is immaterial how the renewable power is generated: what matters is if it can be turned on reliably.

Hydro is better, but has severe limitations. There is only so much water behind each dam. Once it's drained, that power source is exhausted until it can be refilled. New hydro is not a player. Pretty much every dam-able piece of water has been dammed. More efficient turbines help, but that's a minor change. Hydro is used in a manner similar to the gas turbines, and sometimes for the weekly variation, as well.

Storing renewable energy is the "holy grail". Some countries are trying to do so. Seasonally, as the various water levels drop behind the dams in Scandinavia (there are minor differences between Norway and Sweden and their approaches, but I'll just lump them together...and toss Finland in. Because. ;) ), they buy electricity from the large wind farms operating by, primarily, the Netherlands and Denmark. They use this electricity to pump water back up behind the dams. That works: the inefficiency doesn't really matter because otherwise the wind power would be lost. This approach works due to the abundance of fresh water to be pumped back up (it's not used for irrigation), and the close proximity of the wind farms.


^^^^
This is the starting point of any discussion about the current use of wind/solar. If you disagree with any of the generalities, let me know. Yes, there are specifics which may change certain points, but this is a model which underlays every major power generation system in the modern world.
 
For 10000 kWh I pay about $1070 per year. In Germany you pay $2640.
No thank you. They can defile their once beautiful landscapes with those aweful eyesore wind turbines all they want but I don't want it here. I like my nuke station tucked away in its little corner where no one sees it and the power flows abundantly and cleanly. In my definition uranium is renewable and sustainable. These other gimmicks are just there to fleece consumers. If it truly were a better alternative, the market would adopt it without the coercion of the state.
In addition, once Germany no longer has its nuclear power plants and the unusual warm and windy and clear summer gives way to the more common cloudy summer, they will be forced to import their energy from France and their nuclear plants. Buncha idiots.
 
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Couldn't happen in America. /A nation so large that it effectively places 321.4 million people in the same fuck basket, thereby allowing corporations and industries to fuck over every citizen who lives in a 3.797 million square mile land mass by bribing 535~ politicians through lobbyists or speaking fees.
 
For 10000 kWh I pay about $1070 per year. In Germany you pay $2640.
No thank you. They can defile their once beautiful landscapes with those aweful eyesore wind turbines all they want but I don't want it here. I like my nuke station tucked away in its little corner where no one sees it and the power flows abundantly and cleanly. In my definition uranium is renewable and sustainable. These other gimmicks are just there to fleece consumers. If it truly were a better alternative, the market would adopt it without the coercion of the state.
In addition, once Germany no longer has its nuclear power plants and the unusual warm and windy and clear summer gives way to the more common cloudy summer, they will be forced to import their energy from France and their nuclear plants. Buncha idiots.

Odd. I find windmills to be a graceful part of the scenery, while nuclear plant cooling towers are ugly as fuck. /And I've never seen a wind plant melt down and contaminate ground water that then contaminates the Pacific Ocean non-stop for the last six years.
 
For 10000 kWh I pay about $1070 per year. In Germany you pay $2640.
No thank you. They can defile their once beautiful landscapes with those aweful eyesore wind turbines all they want but I don't want it here. I like my nuke station tucked away in its little corner where no one sees it and the power flows abundantly and cleanly. In my definition uranium is renewable and sustainable. These other gimmicks are just there to fleece consumers. If it truly were a better alternative, the market would adopt it without the coercion of the state.
In addition, once Germany no longer has its nuclear power plants and the unusual warm and windy and clear summer gives way to the more common cloudy summer, they will be forced to import their energy from France and their nuclear plants. Buncha idiots.

Your nuclear station is filled with tax dollars to run. While I like nuclear and wish we had more. Make no mistake, its pretty much the most expensive way to produce power.

In the UK, a private company got nuclear plants for free from the state and still went bankrupt.
 
I'm not seeing how this is "impressive". It's not like Solar, Wind, Hydro, etc are new or special in any way. And they really aren't particularly good technologies when it comes to power generation either...

It would be "impressive" to see a country increase it's Nuclear power generation, as Nuclear power is one of the safest, cleanest, cheapest, and most reliable forms of power known to man. Using nuclear would indicate a population that actually cares about science and fact as opposed to a population that is spoon-fed drama by the press about Nuclear being dangerous and bad.

If America cared about science perhaps they wouldn't have abandoned LFTR reactors to focus exclusively on light water reactors, in order to make a plutonium to build a nuclear weapons stockpile.
 
If America cared about science perhaps they wouldn't have abandoned LFTR reactors to focus exclusively on light water reactors, in order to make a plutonium to build a nuclear weapons stockpile.

Yeah Nuclear weapons have nothing to do with science... Like many you seem to get science and politics confused.

Quite frankly, any type of Nuclear reactor is better than the alternatives.
 
Never mentioned... at what cost? Wind power costs 3x as much as the next best alternative and solar 6x. That raises the price of everything. They basically banned far more affordable nuclear power.

Germany is also ruining their views with 40 story windmills all over the countryside. Their famous black forest looks like War of the Worlds in some areas. Only going to get worse as they phase out nuclear power.
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This is the first time I've ever seen the "view" of them used by anti renewable power people...considering most other forms of power (not nuclear) pollute the air providing shitty views of the world.

But hey, we can use the argument one way, but not the other.
 
Yeah Nuclear weapons have nothing to do with science... Like many you seem to get science and politics confused.

Quite frankly, any type of Nuclear reactor is better than the alternatives.

It's not confusion, just a lack of respect for the culture of insanity that nuclear weapons represents.
 
CO2: the widespread alarmism about CO2 is a religious cult. It has every characteristic of one, most especially the faith-based belief system.

Exposing aboriginals to "the truth"??? How is unspoiled food and clean water something which an "elevated" human withholds from another? Let them choose. And every time, they choose labor saving devices, and especially love refrigerators.

Human accelerated climate change is a fact. It's called SCIENCE. I don't know what kind of brainwashing it takes to get people to ignore the truth that is all around them, but you and any other climate denier should be the last people accusing others of being cult members with faith-based beliefs. I mean talk about willful ignorance. Your money and "labor saving devices" won't save you from the inevitable ecological collapse we will cause if we stay on this path.
 
LOL...

(And, I see that you quote Lenin in your sig line. Talk about supporting my stance that statists/socialists/control-ists are the ones behind the climate scare movement so that they can gain more power! Thanks! I couldn't ask for a better support!)
 
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Continuing from post #97, here: https://hardforum.com/threads/germa...eaking-weekend.1933815/page-3#post-1043002905

Let's assume that CO2 is causing all sorts of mayhem, climate apocalypse, and general bad things. (Focus on "assume".) Now, if the goal is to reduce CO2 output, then you wouldn't do anything that INCREASED it, right?

Go back to how wind power is generated and distributed on the grid. Remember those gas turbines? They are VERY efficient and produce low pollution: they do burn natural gas (usually). The two combustion by-products of burning natural gas are H2O and CO2. If you're AT ALL concerned about CO2, you should be twenty-fold more concerned about water vapor: it has a MUCH HIGHER greenhouse effect. Anyhow, ignore the H2O, because it'd be silly to get concerned about that, right? ;)

Every time you turn on a gas turbine, it produces a VAST amount of exhaust for little power...until it gets up to speed/temp. Then, it is very clean...but still puts out the dread CO2 and H2O. Cycling a gas turbine on and off produces MORE pollution than just running it.

Conclusion: using wind power in the power distribution grid causes more CO2 output than if they weren't even there in the first place.

I haven't even discussed anything about cost, etc.

Yeah, I know: it feels better to point at windmills and say you're greener than I am.
 
First, let's stay on a rational basis. Do not assume that I do not understand the science involved. I understand it as well as anyone else.

Third, with the above in mind, I am a sceptic when it comes to the "science" of man-made global climate change. This is a point of contention for most, and is the area in need of clarity.

Dude, both of these things can't be true. Sorry but you have to get it through your head that you aren't smarter than the world's top scientists in all of their distinct fields. Unless you think these people are simultaneously so smart they can pull the wool over the world's eyes while also overlooking such huge flaws in their claims that you somehow cracked the code. I'd advise you to come to grips with your own human limitations.


I agree with what was said generally. The exact numbers involved in powering things on / off I haven't looked into but we can deal with that as the need arises. Also, you're making some assumptions e.g. that the power grid is capable of supplying full power in the event of absolutely 0 wind over the entirety of Germany. Maybe they would just resort to blackouts in that case? Maybe they have sufficient peering arrangements with nearby countries that they could buy whatever power shortfall they were facing? As with any system, adding reliability beyond a certain level starts costing more and more for incrementally little improvement.

Let's assume that CO2 is causing all sorts of mayhem, climate apocalypse, and general bad things. (Focus on "assume".) Now, if the goal is to reduce CO2 output, then you wouldn't do anything that INCREASED it, right?

Depends on what you mean. It takes tons of CO2 to do fusion research but we assume that the tradeoff is worth it. So, generally speaking, you'd be correct though we'd have to see the specific tradeoff being made before we could say for sure.

Go back to how wind power is generated and distributed on the grid. Remember those gas turbines? They are VERY efficient and produce low pollution: they do burn natural gas (usually). The two combustion by-products of burning natural gas are H2O and CO2. If you're AT ALL concerned about CO2, you should be twenty-fold more concerned about water vapor: it has a MUCH HIGHER greenhouse effect. Anyhow, ignore the H2O, because it'd be silly to get concerned about that, right? ;)

You seem to want to make every decision one dimensional. I don't know the specific characteristics of how water vapor functions as a greenhouse gas but there are lots of possible dimensions

1) How does the substance behave low in the atmosphere?
2) How does the substance behave high in the atmosphere?
3) How rapidly can the substance move from low in the atmosphere to high in the atmosphere?
4) What are the mechanisms for removing the substance from the atmosphere and how do they work?

I don't know specifically how CO2 compares to water vapor along these dimensions or the many others I don't know enough to even ask about. I do know we have natural processes for removing water vapor from the air (i.e. precipitation) which we don't have for CO2. Anyway, we move on for now but please consider that there are multiple dimensions to these ridiculously complex issues.

Every time you turn on a gas turbine, it produces a VAST amount of exhaust for little power...until it gets up to speed/temp. Then, it is very clean...but still puts out the dread CO2 and H2O. Cycling a gas turbine on and off produces MORE pollution than just running it.

Obviously there is some duty cycle where it is better to shut it down than leave it running. What you're saying can't possibly be the case. You didn't post any numbers so we can't figure out exactly what that duty cycle would be.

Conclusion: using wind power in the power distribution grid causes more CO2 output than if they weren't even there in the first place.

I haven't even discussed anything about cost, etc.

Yeah, I know: it feels better to point at windmills and say you're greener than I am.

How can you possibly reach that conclusion without looking into a *single* number? "VAST" is not a number. "very clean" is not a number.

If you know the numbers would be for a typical gas turbine please post them. If not, then how can you be so confident in this conclusion?

Also, consider the fact that we should have pretty good models for wind at this point, reasonable ability to predict when it will be there and when it will not etc. Obviously our models won't be 100% but I bet they're pretty good by now, at least for the locations where the Germans are going to go to the significant expense of installing windmills. You sound like you're assuming the people building these things haven;t thought of the issues you raise. Maybe they did, and you are the one who is lacking some understanding which explains the decisions they made?
 
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And thanks for letting me know that Chernobyl is in Japan.
Never said it was, mentioned it to indicate there were other sites where radiation leaks had occured. That's where the 'etc.' comes in. While right now nuclear power is a better option than, say, coal, NOT developing renewable energy sources where possible is simply idiotic. Of course, if you own stock in the companies that supply oil or power from nuclear sources, then I understand why you'd prefer that those be used instead.
 
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