Need help with DAC/AMP/Headphone selection

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WinMan_x2000

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
Messages
183
Hello-

I am currently using HDMI out to a receiver with some less than adequate speakers in a 5.1 setup. I am ready to take the plunge into some nice headphones.

First things first, my price range without monitor speakers will be 1k to 2.5k.

Here is the research I have gotten so far:

Schiit Jotunheim or the oppo hd-1 paired with the HD800. I like the idea of balanced xlr to the monitor speakers.

Question: if using the schiit..... how do you switch between speaker use and headphone use? or any dac + amp stack for that matter? The HD-1 at least has a mute button for the monitors. In both cases, would it be that hard to have a toggle switch to select the output source?

I am not really sold on any of this equipment yet and am very open to suggestions. I am cautious of the headband of the hd800 since it does not have the strap style, so the HD800 may be out of the running on that account. Additionally,I know I want the type that the cushion sits around the ear and not on the ear.

I am fully aware that you can go off on the deep end here and want to somewhat keep things reasonable with the price. I am fully happy spending only 1k if the 2.5k recommendation just really does not give any benefits.

Thoughts?
 
If you aren't going to mod the HD800 I would suggest the HD800S instead, or maybe the Focal Elear. The stock HD800 is has a 5.5KHz resonance peak caused by the hole within the ring radiator which needs to be plugged in with felt/rubber. If you are willing to do the mod yourself, it costs about $20 in materials but will require a partial disassembly of the headphone. Alternatively you can buy the HD800S, which although is a much better headphone than the stock HD800, lags slightly behind the modded HD800 due to somewhat muddier bass and also a less effective solution to the ringing--Sennheiser's helmholtz resonator extends out to 6KHz causing a slight reduction in imaging and transient response.

If you don't intend on modding the HD800, I would suggest a tube amp to distract you from the treble peak, as most people seem to no longer notice it with enough 2nd order harmonics from tubes.
 
Thanks for the heads up. I actually meant that I was looking at the 800s.

I checked out the focals, indeed that is a nice headset. I am also highly leaning towards the hifiman edition x v2. My only fear was the low impedance of 25 ohms. From what I understand, the higher impedance, the less chance to have a hiss?

I will be using these for music and gaming. It is my understanding that for gaming, I would be better off with a closed back headset so the sounds do not mix back into the mic? Is that really an issue?

Thanks again for the help.
 
yes close back will not leak the sound. as for ohm, I have some 30ohm one, using my PC audio, and I never heard any hiss. a good dac/amp shouldn't generate hiss, its SNR just too high.

Schiit, you only has XLR/USB?RCA. oppo ha1 cost more, but has various input selection/remote/apps/nice display screen etc

I heard the jot take long time to power up, not sure true or not.



 
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Yeah, no idea why the jot takes a long time to boot up. Its on the order of 15-20s. I am really leaning towards the oppo. My reservation is that it is a class A amp.... so much heat.
 
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I dont think theres a relationship between resistance (ohms) and hiss, at least not a direct one I'm aware of. Ive heard hiss on plenty of high gain amps on 300 and even 600 ohm headphones. If there is a difference, I imagine it's going to vary based on the output impedence and gain structure of the amp.

Now low sensitivity drivers (say at below [email protected]) do tend to have lower hiss because the drivers simply arent as responsive to a given unit of electrical energy, so passive hum or hiss tends to be at a lower level, when present.
 
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Ah, i see. Correlated, but not the root cause. Do yall think the hifiman edition x v2 would pair well with the jotunheim?
 
Edition Xv2 and Focal Elear are better all-rounders than the HD800/S due to being warmer/bassier cans.

HD800/S has the potential to be the best headphone in the world but requires mods and EQ. To make the HD800 a competitive all-rounder you need Sonarworks measurement and calibration system which costs either $100 or $200 (I forget), and in the nonS model requires physical modification (although like I mentioned earlier, once modded is a better can than the S).
 
WinMan_x2000 said:
Hello-

I am currently using HDMI out to a receiver with some less than adequate speakers in a 5.1 setup. I am ready to take the plunge into some nice headphones.

First things first, my price range without monitor speakers will be 1k to 2.5k.

Here is the research I have gotten so far:

Schiit Jotunheim or the oppo hd-1 paired with the HD800. I like the idea of balanced xlr to the monitor speakers.

Question: if using the schiit..... how do you switch between speaker use and headphone use? or any dac + amp stack for that matter? The HD-1 at least has a mute button for the monitors. In both cases, would it be that hard to have a toggle switch to select the output source?

I am not really sold on any of this equipment yet and am very open to suggestions. I am cautious of the headband of the hd800 since it does not have the strap style, so the HD800 may be out of the running on that account. Additionally,I know I want the type that the cushion sits around the ear and not on the ear.

I am fully aware that you can go off on the deep end here and want to somewhat keep things reasonable with the price. I am fully happy spending only 1k if the 2.5k recommendation just really does not give any benefits.

Thoughts?
Click to expand...

The hottest headphone on the scene right now are the Sony MDR-Z1R.
 
So, I went with the Jotunheim. It just seems hard to beat for the price. I will just manually switch the speakers off with a power switch when not in use. The money saved on this will push to a better headset. Indeed the MDR-ZIR is hot. I am also checking out the Ether Flow. I am leaning to the ether because you can get it with the XLR connector stock vs having to buy an expensive cable that is expensive just because its expensive.
 
I just EQ the treble a bit on my HD 800's and they're just about perfect. I use them with a Schiit Valhalla 2 tube amp, Norne audio Draug v2 cable, and a Titanium HD soundcard using CMSS-3d software surround. The ULTRA wide soundstage of the 800's is amazing for games!
 
The Z1Rs can be found for way cheaper in Europe (1300-1500Euro) than in the US (2k or so).

Its a pretty good headphone but the headband is hard (plastic or metal, not sure) with little padding on the upper sides of the headband, so it can be a little painful depending on headshape.

I demoed a pair from a friend for a few weeks and I still prefer a SD HD800 or Elear over it, but its very very good for a (semi) closed can, better than the MrSpeakers C Flow IMO.
 
Still cant device if I want open or closed.

Open: Hifiman HEXv2 and Ether Flow
Closed: HD800s, Elear, Ether Flow C

If I go closed, I likely would do the Ether because of the construction with leather band vs the other two using a padded band. Decisions...... bleh. At least I have time to ponder since the Jotunheim is on back order till the 13th of Feb.
 
If you go with the Ether Flow, make sure to upgrade to the new earpads that are coming out which is designed for the Ether ES Electrostatic headphone but will also be compatible with the Ether Flow.

It'll be a gigantic ear opening (instead of the small one currently) and its supposed to open up the soundstage as well as reduce the treble somewhat (stock Ether Flow is a bit V-shaped in terms of Freq Response).
 
They arent available yet. MrSpeakers Ether ES Electrostatic headphone will be launching this quarter (at around 2k or so and is supposed to be a Stax 007/009 competitor) and the new earpads will be available on the website thereafter. The only people who've seen or tested the earpads are people who've heard the cans at CanJam or other festivals or have physically stopped by at the San Diego facility.
 
WinMan_x2000 said:
Still cant device if I want open or closed.

Open: Hifiman HEXv2 and Ether Flow
Closed: HD800s, Elear, Ether Flow C

If I go closed, I likely would do the Ether because of the construction with leather band vs the other two using a padded band. Decisions...... bleh. At least I have time to ponder since the Jotunheim is on back order till the 13th of Feb.
Click to expand...

HD800S and Elear are both open-back headphones actually. The only comparable closed can performance-wise is Ether C/C Flow. Cans like the Sony MDR-Z1R and Beyerdynamic T1 are actually semi-closed (vented designs), although sound leakage is quite low.
 
For $1K+, I'd definitely want the highest fidelity possible, and thus would go with open back headphones.

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/burst-response-hd800-sr-207-hd650.3688/ - I like this series of tests suggesting how, at least in the measurements, STAX electrostats seem to have such low-impact bass... or "limp-dick bass" as they put it in the thread. Note that this was the entry-level STAX unit being tested.

Though in Tyll's review ( http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/etherial-mr-speakers-ether-flow-page-2#JQFhXYoeURyFfuzr.97 ) of the Ether Flow, he still does reinforce the idea that stats and planars are a bit flaccid: that the Focal units hit harder and are more dynamic, and the Ether was... ethereal.

I guess that's the caveat... uniquely airy sound at the expense of dynamic impact. And yet, several have indicated preference for the SR-009, HE1000, and possibly the Ether Flow over the $4K Focal Utopia (and vice-versa, of course).

Open back will provide better imaging for gaming, but if you're worried about the mic, then you could just pick up a decent set of closed back cans for $250-$400. There are several options (NAD Viso HP50, focal spirit pro / classic, OPPO PM-3, ATH MSR-7, B&W P7, PSB M4U-2, AKG K553, etc...) On the plus side, you could be a little less careful with these cheaper cans, and take the gaming mileage off your $1k+ set.

I don't think it's worthwhile to spend ~$1k+ on closed-back headphones.
 
OP, you need to find somewhere you can audition these things rather than speculate and rely on reviews. At this price point it may even be worth it to travel for the purpose.
 
Archmage said:
For $1K+, I'd definitely want the highest fidelity possible, and thus would go with open back headphones.

http://www.superbestaudiofriends.org/index.php?threads/burst-response-hd800-sr-207-hd650.3688/ - I like this series of tests suggesting how, at least in the measurements, STAX electrostats seem to have such low-impact bass... or "limp-dick bass" as they put it in the thread. Note that this was the entry-level STAX unit being tested.

Though in Tyll's review ( http://www.innerfidelity.com/content/etherial-mr-speakers-ether-flow-page-2#JQFhXYoeURyFfuzr.97 ) of the Ether Flow, he still does reinforce the idea that stats and planars are a bit flaccid: that the Focal units hit harder and are more dynamic, and the Ether was... ethereal.

I guess that's the caveat... uniquely airy sound at the expense of dynamic impact. And yet, several have indicated preference for the SR-009, HE1000, and possibly the Ether Flow over the $4K Focal Utopia (and vice-versa, of course).

Open back will provide better imaging for gaming, but if you're worried about the mic, then you could just pick up a decent set of closed back cans for $250-$400. There are several options (NAD Viso HP50, focal spirit pro / classic, OPPO PM-3, ATH MSR-7, B&W P7, PSB M4U-2, AKG K553, etc...) On the plus side, you could be a little less careful with these cheaper cans, and take the gaming mileage off your $1k+ set.

I don't think it's worthwhile to spend ~$1k+ on closed-back headphones.
Click to expand...

Focal Elear and Utopia kind of stand out among electrodynamic headphones in terms of how dynamic the driver is. It's not typical, and I would say planars like the Edition X or Oppo PM-1 aren't noticeably less dynamic than say a Sennheiser HD800 or Beyerdynamic T1.

The Focal's are designed to be high xmax drivers, which is very unusual among headphones. They have a formerless voice coil which reduces the weight of the coil signficantly, use a rather large magnet assembly for a headphone driver, a driver that is mounted flush with the baffle (rather than recessed in a cup like most headphones), and a narrow earpad opening which "cups" the driver's output into smaller air volume, increasing the sense of air pressure even more.

In fact the last part contributes quite a bit of the dynamism of the Elears and the Utopias. If you use much larger earpads (I've used the HD700 and HD800 ones) quite a bit of the dynamism of the drivers go away (along with an increase in soundstage), and the "blow out an eyeball" effect that Tyll speaks about is substantially removed.
 
I am unsure where these things are even on display to hear them. Hearing them would be very nice. I did a quick search in Houston and did not come up with much.
 
No single headphone does it all, but your budget allows 2-3 good sets. And forget travel, because headphones are easy to ship.

Order the Elear, HD600/650 & Oppo PM-3 from stores with good return policies. (The Senns will provide a $300ish reality check for more expensive cans.)
 
So.... after endless research, I was trying to decide between the Focal Elear, Mr Speaker Ether Flow, and the HIFIMAN x v2. Elear = dynamic and punchy, Xv2 = spacious, great positioning, etc.

I pulled the trigger on the ether flow for 2 reasons. One reviewer said it was a cross between the utopia (a more expensive elear) and the Xv2. The other reason was that the ether flow allowed me to select what cable I wanted at purchase as opposed to having to pay for another thing. Other small benefits were the construction, headband style.

After a good break in period, I will update everyone!
 
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