What It’s Like to Work On a Video Game Flop

H

HardOCP News

[H] News
Joined
Dec 31, 1969
Messages
0
After reading stories like this, it's a wonder anyone wants to get into the video game industry. Sure the big wigs make great money and are the most likely to survive the routine lay-offs but the little guys are the ones that get it the worst. :(

The job is impossible. You pull ridiculous hours, meet stringent deadlines, cross your fingers, and hope like hell your product meets a very particular combination of acclaim and marketability to green-light a sequel, or at the very least keep the company intact. Sure, there's a chance you work at Blizzard or Infinity Ward and are playing with house money, but this is still an industry that lays off twice as many people as the US national rate. If you make video games for a living, you are going to be disappointed again, and again, and again, and again.
 
Aren't they some of the best paid programmers (outside contractors) in the field? (This of course does not take into account overtime. At most companies you are not obliged legally to take overtime. But if they are real bastards they might threaten your job for under-performance.
 
5150Joker said:
Then pick a different line of work rather than being some code monkey for a gaming company. Zero sympathy for these guys.
Click to expand...

Do something you love and put up with the shit that comes with it or get some soul sucking job in corporate America? I'll take the former anytime.

There's a reason so many developers go indie after working for EA or Activision or any of the big boys. It's certainly not any easier but at least you end up in control of your own work.
 
Dwango said:
Do something you love and put up with the shit that comes with it or get some soul sucking job in corporate America? I'll take the former anytime.

There's a reason so many developers go indie after working for EA or Activision or any of the big boys. It's certainly not any easier but at least you end up in control of your own work.
Click to expand...

If I was a game programmer I'd opt to churn out as many $2-3 smartphone games/apps as I could to maximize revenue. PC and game console design obviously requires a lot more resources and time for questionable return.
 
5150Joker said:
Then pick a different line of work rather than being some code monkey for a gaming company. Zero sympathy for these guys.
Click to expand...

Then you ought to have zero sympathy about US workers getting outsourced at that, and you have zero sympathy for the millennials now being beset by enormous college debt too.

5150Joker said:
If I was a game programmer I'd opt to churn out as many $2-3 smartphone games/apps as I could to maximize revenue. PC and game console design obviously requires a lot more resources and time for questionable return.
Click to expand...

That gravy train's long out. We ain't at the era of Flappy bird and Angry bird no more.
 
DigitalGriffin said:
Aren't they some of the best paid programmers (outside contractors) in the field? (This of course does not take into account overtime. At most companies you are not obliged legally to take overtime. But if they are real bastards they might threaten your job for under-performance.
Click to expand...

I get the impression you think so only because most of the video games companies are based in California and thus have a higher average salary than most of the rest of the USA. If you compare video games programmers, they are at best on par but most of the time below industry average for someone with similar development skills in a different industry.

The often overlooked fact is that there is a sense of passion involved in making video games. You see it in every games developer recruitment job advert especially those targeted at graduate programmers. They deliberately exploit a person's passion for video games to lure them into the industry and also exploit that same passion into giving them less pay. Most people get blinded by the very opportunity to work with a video games company that asking for the right salary becomes very low on their priority list.

The more senior a developer or programmer you need, the less the games company actually advertises the vacancy as a video games developer. Only the very top end studios will continually advertise their brand.

5150Joker said:
Then pick a different line of work rather than being some code monkey for a gaming company. Zero sympathy for these guys.
Click to expand...

A few years ago, I would be extremely offended by this type of remark. Now, I'm jaded.

Churn in the video games industry is extremely high. Talented developers rarely stay in the video games industry. Most of them are underpaid and eventually someone in the simulations or casino gaming industry will pry the experienced developers away from the video games industry.


Dwango said:
There's a reason so many developers go indie after working for EA or Activision or any of the big boys. It's certainly not any easier but at least you end up in control of your own work.
Click to expand...

There are a lot fewer developers who go indie than you think. Most move industries. Those who go indie do it because they remove 1 important aspect of their job, they get much lesser publisher pressure.

Whenever there is a studio/publisher partnership, you have 2 cooks. One cook wants to make the best dish possible, the other cook wants to make the dish quickly and bring in money. I don't want to go into what problems this dichotomy brings, there are enough articles out there that discusses this problem already.

5150Joker said:
If I was a game programmer I'd opt to churn out as many $2-3 smartphone games/apps as I could to maximize revenue. PC and game console design obviously requires a lot more resources and time for questionable return.
Click to expand...

I don't work in mobile but I can assure you, talking to the mobile folks, it's becoming an impossible market now. You now need quality in the mobile market, and that is a market with extremely low price expectations.
 
Reimu said:
That gravy train's long out. We ain't at the era of Flappy bird and Angry bird no more.
Click to expand...
ChrisC said:
I don't work in mobile but I can assure you, talking to the mobile folks, it's becoming an impossible market now. You now need quality in the mobile market, and that is a market with extremely low price expectations.
Click to expand...

Both right on the mark. If you want to be a successful mobile dev, you need resources beyond what most fledgling indie studios can muster. Multi-platform, free-mium with in-game purchase options out the wazoo, an ad campaign, and an army of Chinese people to exploit game the system for maximum app-store exposure—all of which guarantees you nothing more than what passes for a fair chance. Otherwise, prepare to be buried within days of publishing.
 
The mobile game industry is hit or miss. Sometimes it's not just the indie shops though. That guy (yes, one guy) who made slither.io is a multi-millionaire now. There are a lot of simple "amusement" games like that that can bring in the cash if they get to the top of the app store.
 
You work in a highly volatile market segment. What the fuck do you think is going to happen? You think ever start-up is successful and gets the big buy-out payday? No. Same for you working in the gaming industry. It's all fantasy and awesome when you get in, but now you are part of a larger machine to work in, and it isn't just you riding on the line to success only to be derailed at every turn. Enjoy.
 
MOBA?... that whole massive online market sucks if you ask me.
But, im sure this type of layoffs are just as rampant in the single player market games as well.
Hate mmos... hate hate hate... did i mention how much i hate mmo games?
 
Methadras said:
You work in a highly volatile market segment. What the fuck do you think is going to happen? You think ever start-up is successful and gets the big buy-out payday? No. Same for you working in the gaming industry. It's all fantasy and awesome when you get in, but now you are part of a larger machine to work in, and it isn't just you riding on the line to success only to be derailed at every turn. Enjoy.
Click to expand...

I have to agree, the market has to be saturated with the required labor or the business practice would be unsustainable. No matter how distasteful the practice is, it will continue until the game developers cannot replace the lost workers with cheaper labor.
 
The problem with the gaming industry is there is a huge vacuum of talented game designers. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that it's nearly impossible to teach someone good game design. It's simply something you either have talent for or you don't. Everyone and their grandma thinks they have the greatest idea for a video game and it's turned the market sour. The problem gets even more complicated when Steam has exploitable quality control allowing absolute garbage into the store. In most cases it's simply a lottery if your game will be successful, and that will only happen if your game is polished.

Hellgate: London as an example from the article is an amazing game. It's in the same vein as Borderlands but designed much better and has much more aesthetic appeal. It also had market hype as it was the first game released by the former developers of Diablo 2 after they left Blizzard. The only reason it flopped was because it was rushed to release, was a broken buggy mess that in the best case would crash frequently. Most people couldn't get it to run at all when it was released.

The guy from the article, Steven Ashley, gave some great advice all developers need to follow. Only develop games that you like. If you get involved with developing a game you don't care about and just do it to get paid, the quality of your work will be dragged down, your team members will feel the bad quality of your work and their own work will suffer and it will snowball into something terrible and doomed.

We need another gaming industry crash like the one in the 80's. Remember that? when they dumped millions of old atari cartridges into landfills? North American video game crash of 1983 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 
Scizyr said:
We need another gaming industry crash like the one in the 80's. Remember that? when they dumped millions of old atari cartridges into landfills? North American video game crash of 1983 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

Not sure if that is possible. I wish something would happen though. Tech is growing so fast, everyone is logged on all the time with mobile devices. Back then, you could only play games made by the big devs, but now we have so many indie devs, mods, and tools for modding, this gives so many choices for gamers. I just do not see how we could have a crash. Maybe things are just growing and changing too fast. All i know is, games have not been the same since the implementation of the 3D accelerator in PC;s and consoles. Dumbing down gameplay, and focusing only on eye-candy. Games used to be tough, and require more time and thought. Now it seems like they are designed for people with ADD. I miss the good old days of gaming.
 
Dwango said:
Do something you love and put up with the shit that comes with it or get some soul sucking job in corporate America? I'll take the former anytime.

There's a reason so many developers go indie after working for EA or Activision or any of the big boys. It's certainly not any easier but at least you end up in control of your own work.
Click to expand...
I have the strong opinion that most people confuse liking playing video games with actively making/programming video games. The two are vastly different. There are still many industries that do not require the crazy hours and shitty work conditions but still need developers to make meaningful products.
 
5150Joker said:
Then pick a different line of work rather than being some code monkey for a gaming company. Zero sympathy for these guys.
Click to expand...

Awesome plan. It should give us lots of fun games to play if everyone takes that approach.
 
Hypergreatthing said:
I have the strong opinion that most people confuse liking playing video games with actively making/programming video games. The two are vastly different. There are still many industries that do not require the crazy hours and shitty work conditions but still need developers to make meaningful products.
Click to expand...

You aren't wrong with this opinion. Many people confuse their love for video games into thinking they will love making video games. They join the video games industry and absolutely burn out within a year.

And that's the story of 90% of the graduate developers who join the video games industry.

Scizyr said:
The problem with the gaming industry is there is a huge vacuum of talented game designers. The problem is exacerbated by the fact that it's nearly impossible to teach someone good game design. It's simply something you either have talent for or you don't. Everyone and their grandma thinks they have the greatest idea for a video game and it's turned the market sour. The problem gets even more complicated when Steam has exploitable quality control allowing absolute garbage into the store. In most cases it's simply a lottery if your game will be successful, and that will only happen if your game is polished.

Hellgate: London as an example from the article is an amazing game. It's in the same vein as Borderlands but designed much better and has much more aesthetic appeal. It also had market hype as it was the first game released by the former developers of Diablo 2 after they left Blizzard. The only reason it flopped was because it was rushed to release, was a broken buggy mess that in the best case would crash frequently. Most people couldn't get it to run at all when it was released.

The guy from the article, Steven Ashley, gave some great advice all developers need to follow. Only develop games that you like. If you get involved with developing a game you don't care about and just do it to get paid, the quality of your work will be dragged down, your team members will feel the bad quality of your work and their own work will suffer and it will snowball into something terrible and doomed.

We need another gaming industry crash like the one in the 80's. Remember that? when they dumped millions of old atari cartridges into landfills? North American video game crash of 1983 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...

I have to stress one point. Designers are not necessarily programmers, nor are programmers necessarily designers. A great designer can have a team of bad programmers and you still have a bad game. You can have a bad designer and a world class team of programmers, most stable mediocre game ever(or benchmark).

I do agree with what Steven Ashley says, but the reality is difficult to achieve.

As for another video game crash, not likely to happen. Chinese, Japanese, South Korean and British games are more globalized now. They will fill in the gaps.
 
Hypergreatthing said:
I have the strong opinion that most people confuse liking playing video games with actively making/programming video games. The two are vastly different. There are still many industries that do not require the crazy hours and shitty work conditions but still need developers to make meaningful products.
Click to expand...

I like both. Granted, the only games I've made have been fairly simple (by large company standards), but weren't bad games (C64, 80286/386/486 era). I learned a lot from making those, and am wanting to get back into it. Of course, I'm going back to the old stuff using 68000 ASM (targeting Sega Genesis). It's fun stuff, but I really enjoy programming and problem solving. Gaming is fun, but I've always loved PC's because you can play games AND make your own. :)
 
Idk, that kinda all sounds like every startup company in every industry.

Unless you're under the wing of one of the big companies you're essentially a startup business. It just happens to be a much more ruthless industry to startup in.

What is a shame is the same massive companies can pump out crap game after crap game and be fine but the little guys get mauled if they do.
 
Scizyr said:
We need another gaming industry crash like the one in the 80's. Remember that? when they dumped millions of old atari cartridges into landfills? North American video game crash of 1983 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Click to expand...
It's unlikely to happen since the dynamics are very different now. Even then, the crash of 1983 only affected console games, PC games like the C64 kept on trucking that entire time. What we're seeing now is more of a split between large studios not willing to take any risks since too much money is at stake and oversaturation on the indie level since development is way more accessible than before. The only risk of a crash comes from the mainstream studios since game budgets are so utterly massive now there's a lot on the line if things go wrong.

cptnjarhead said:
Not sure if that is possible. I wish something would happen though. Tech is growing so fast, everyone is logged on all the time with mobile devices. Back then, you could only play games made by the big devs, but now we have so many indie devs, mods, and tools for modding, this gives so many choices for gamers. I just do not see how we could have a crash. Maybe things are just growing and changing too fast. All i know is, games have not been the same since the implementation of the 3D accelerator in PC;s and consoles. Dumbing down gameplay, and focusing only on eye-candy. Games used to be tough, and require more time and thought. Now it seems like they are designed for people with ADD. I miss the good old days of gaming.
Click to expand...
Oh please. This is the same argument as saying music sucks now because you're only going by what's heard on the radio / TV. You want a pre-3D 90s era tough game that requires a lot of concentration and skill? How about Deadbolt? Or Not A Hero? Or Party Hard? Want a different genre? Sure, there are going to be lots of candidates for pretty much anything you want.

Yes, mainstream stuff can suck hard, but with the internet and more people than ever involved, you have more music / games to choose from than ever before. There are hundreds of decent games coming out each year. If you want hard, in-depth, not dumbed-down games, there are loads of those, you just can't expect them to have a TV ad, because they're from companies that can't afford a multi-million dollar marketing budget; they have to rely on the quality of the game instead.
 
tetris42 said:
Oh please. This is the same argument as saying music sucks now because you're only going by what's heard on the radio / TV. You want a pre-3D 90s era tough game that requires a lot of concentration and skill? How about Deadbolt? Or Not A Hero? Or Party Hard? Want a different genre? Sure, there are going to be lots of candidates for pretty much anything you want.

Yes, mainstream stuff can suck hard, but with the internet and more people than ever involved, you have more music / games to choose from than ever before. There are hundreds of decent games coming out each year. If you want hard, in-depth, not dumbed-down games, there are loads of those, you just can't expect them to have a TV ad, because they're from companies that can't afford a multi-million dollar marketing budget; they have to rely on the quality of the game instead.
Click to expand...

You name 3 od ball games, then talk about "yes, mainstream stuff can suck" then talk about more and more people being involved with the internet?
Did you even read my post?
 
5150Joker said:
Then pick a different line of work rather than being some code monkey for a gaming company. Zero sympathy for these guys.
Click to expand...
There's a big difference between job security and income though.

We have consultants that make absolutely INSANE amounts of money, but they are hired and laid off on a whim on an as needed basis. So they have zero job security, however, they typically jump from consulting from one company to another all over the place, making high triple digit incomes accordingly.

The opposite extreme would be most government jobs, where you basically have to masturbate in front of customers while yelling racial slurs to get fired, but on the downside that job security often comes with a pretty low paycheck.
 
cptnjarhead said:
You name 3 od ball games, then talk about "yes, mainstream stuff can suck" then talk about more and more people being involved with the internet?
Did you even read my post?
Click to expand...
Yes, I did, but I feel like you're giving me a "does not compute" moment here. You said:

cptnjarhead said:
All i know is, games have not been the same since the implementation of the 3D accelerator in PC;s and consoles. Dumbing down gameplay, and focusing only on eye-candy. Games used to be tough, and require more time and thought. Now it seems like they are designed for people with ADD. I miss the good old days of gaming.
Click to expand...

And I just gave you a few modern examples of games exactly like you described. Tough games that are not dumbed down, require more time and thought, that an ADD person could not beat. In other words, we have so many games, people are making EXACTLY the kinds of games you want, you just have to look around a little. So what exactly is it that you miss about the "good old days" if you have more options for the kinds of games you want than ever?
 
tetris42 said:
Yes, I did, but I feel like you're giving me a "does not compute" moment here. You said:



And I just gave you a few modern examples of games exactly like you described. Tough games that are not dumbed down, require more time and thought, that an ADD person could not beat. In other words, we have so many games, people are making EXACTLY the kinds of games you want, you just have to look around a little. So what exactly is it that you miss about the "good old days" if you have more options for the kinds of games you want than ever?
Click to expand...
Most of the games you describe I call "meme" games. They look fun and sometimes give a sense of nostalgia. They have decent controls and are generally fun to play. Approximately 2 weeks to one month later they are completely forgotten and the next meme game starts.

These days I won't call any game good unless I can keep going back to it again and again, year after year and still have amazing fun.
Ultima 7, Baldur's Gate 2, Earthbound, Super Metroid, Diablo 2, Quake games, Doom games, Unreal Tournament, Elder Scrolls series, X3, Freelancer, Half Life 1 and 2, Megaman games

Some examples (by no means exhaustive) of games I consider good as they have stood the test of time. I'm absolutely certain some indie games will wind up on my list, there just aren't any old enough yet to be aptly judged, in my opinion. I don't really have any use for new games, I've become patient enough to let the current state of the industry act as a natural filter and wait a few years before trying a game. I occasionally get bitten by the hype bug and make the mistake of buying a new game. Some of the best looking indie games right now seem to be stuck in perpetual "early access" which is a shame.
 
Scizyr said:
Most of the games you describe I call "meme" games. They look fun and sometimes give a sense of nostalgia. They have decent controls and are generally fun to play. Approximately 2 weeks to one month later they are completely forgotten and the next meme game starts.

These days I won't call any game good unless I can keep going back to it again and again, year after year and still have amazing fun.
Ultima 7, Baldur's Gate 2, Earthbound, Super Metroid, Diablo 2, Quake games, Doom games, Unreal Tournament, Elder Scrolls series, X3, Freelancer, Half Life 1 and 2, Megaman games

Some examples (by no means exhaustive) of games I consider good as they have stood the test of time. I'm absolutely certain some indie games will wind up on my list, there just aren't any old enough yet to be aptly judged, in my opinion. I don't really have any use for new games, I've become patient enough to let the current state of the industry act as a natural filter and wait a few years before trying a game. I occasionally get bitten by the hype bug and make the mistake of buying a new game. Some of the best looking indie games right now seem to be stuck in perpetual "early access" which is a shame.
Click to expand...
Those were just examples based on the kind he was describing as missing. I mean hell, out of your list, we have stuff like Divinity Original Sin 1 + 2, the newer Shadowrun games, Grim Dawn, Path of Exile, Axiom Verge, A fully fleshed out, fan-made remake of Metroid 2 was recently released, Environmental Station Alpha, Quake Champions and Unreal Tournament 4 is coming out, Strafe, Toxikk, etc.

Basically if you pick a game you like, odds are there going to be multiple other games out there that are very similar to it, often a bunch of them. That wasn't the case back in the good old days.
 
ChrisC said:
I get the impression you think so only because most of the video games companies are based in California and thus have a higher average salary than most of the rest of the USA. If you compare video games programmers, they are at best on par but most of the time below industry average for someone with similar development skills in a different industry.

The often overlooked fact is that there is a sense of passion involved in making video games. You see it in every games developer recruitment job advert especially those targeted at graduate programmers. They deliberately exploit a person's passion for video games to lure them into the industry and also exploit that same passion into giving them less pay. Most people get blinded by the very opportunity to work with a video games company that asking for the right salary becomes very low on their priority list.

The more senior a developer or programmer you need, the less the games company actually advertises the vacancy as a video games developer. Only the very top end studios will continually advertise their brand.
Click to expand...

During one interview with a well known company, I heard once how many applied to a single position. It was mind blowing, especially compared to other companies, even bigger ones. Would you rather be working on some boring scientific software you'll never use or video games? If you want to make real money, you go into finance. Wall Street programming jobs make places like Google and Facebook appear like they're paying you nothing. And the bigger tech firms have decent pay overall. And with thousands of people applying per position for video games, why take the very best, when you can have someone who's 90% as qualified, but willing to work for half the pay?
 
Last edited:
tetris42 said:
Basically if you pick a game you like, odds are there going to be multiple other games out there that are very similar to it, often a bunch of them.
Click to expand...

I don't really think this is true. A game has to be popular, but also has to be easy to make. There are plenty of games I love, but haven't found anything like them, not in the professional scene, and not in the indie scene. Mainly, because they're complex to make. The industry really does need to crash. I blame this more on the fans though. Gamers use to be more homogeneous, before video games became popular and accepted in society. And we expect to pay next to nothing for them compared to the amount of work that's needed for a game. That's why I feel like you'll never see a game like Ultima VII again, ever, in the industry, not from the professionals, nor from the indie developers.
 
Last edited:
Nytegard said:
I don't really think this is true. A game has to be popular, but also has to be easy to make. There are plenty of games I love, but haven't found anything like them, not in the professional scene, and not in the indie scene. Mainly, because they're complex to make. The industry really does need to crash. I blame this more on the fans though. Gamers use to be more homogeneous, before video games became popular and accepted in society. And we expect to pay next to nothing for them compared to the amount of work that's needed for a game. That's why I feel like you'll never see a game like Ultima VII again, ever, in the industry, not from the professionals, nor from the indie developers.
Click to expand...
I unfortunately haven't played Ultima VII, so I can't give you the most accurate assessment in this case. Are the games

Divinity: Original Sin
Pillars of Eternity
Lords of Xulima
Avadon: The Black Fortress
Avernum: Escape From the Pit
Shadowrun Returns
Torment: Tides of Numenera

ALL so completely off the mark that you don't find any of them enjoyable? These are all rated "very positive" on steam, except for the Torment one. There's also several more Shadowrun games, but I figured that wasn't medieval fantasy, so I only put the one. I'm sure I could find a lot more similar games too, but these are some of the better ones.

EDIT:
Some of the positive reviews mention Ultima in reference to Avernum and the Lords of Xulima one.
 
Last edited:
tetris42 said:
I unfortunately haven't played Ultima VII, so I can't give you the most accurate assessment in this case. Are the games

Divinity: Original Sin
Pillars of Eternity
Lords of Xulima
Avadon: The Black Fortress
Avernum: Escape From the Pit
Shadowrun Returns
Torment: Tides of Numenera

ALL so completely off the mark that you don't find any of them enjoyable? These are all rated "very positive" on steam, except for the Torment one. There's also several more Shadowrun games, but I figured that wasn't medieval fantasy, so I only put the one. I'm sure I could find a lot more similar games too, but these are some of the better ones.
Click to expand...

I've played every one of those, and none of them are really the same.

Torment & Pillers are more like Black Isle games than Ultima, which in my honest opinion, were a huge step back from earlier RPGs. (Baldur's Gate was the first popular RPG to be released in years, but it was pretty light on gameplay compared to RPGs of the early 90s). Avadon & Avernum are more like the earlier Ultimas. While they might have a more complex story, they're lighter on world building than Ultima VI. Xulima is more like Wizardry than Ultima, which focuses more on combat than the world. Shadowrun Returns is nothing like it either. Divinity Original Sin is too static of a world.

Now, there certainly have been games that have implemented features that Ultima VII had. Gothic had decent NPCs. The later Elder Scroll series started to allow you to interact with the world (but still is poorly implemented. You can move most items, but that's the limit of interaction). But Origin's Motto was "We Create Worlds", and it could be seen playing the game. The same just isn't true with any of the games you listed, nor any RPG that I've played since Ultima VII. Probably the closest have been Faery Tale Adventure 2: Halls of the Dead (not quite as interactive) which was released broken, Darghul remake (more like Ultima VI than VII), and Teugodar and the Alliance with Rome, which isn't an open world.
 
Nytegard said:
I've played every one of those, and none of them are really the same.

Torment & Pillers are more like Black Isle games than Ultima, which in my honest opinion, were a huge step back from earlier RPGs. (Baldur's Gate was the first popular RPG to be released in years, but it was pretty light on gameplay compared to RPGs of the early 90s). Avadon & Avernum are more like the earlier Ultimas. While they might have a more complex story, they're lighter on world building than Ultima VI. Xulima is more like Wizardry than Ultima, which focuses more on combat than the world. Shadowrun Returns is nothing like it either. Divinity Original Sin is too static of a world.

Now, there certainly have been games that have implemented features that Ultima VII had. Gothic had decent NPCs. The later Elder Scroll series started to allow you to interact with the world (but still is poorly implemented. You can move most items, but that's the limit of interaction). But Origin's Motto was "We Create Worlds", and it could be seen playing the game. The same just isn't true with any of the games you listed, nor any RPG that I've played since Ultima VII. Probably the closest have been Faery Tale Adventure 2: Halls of the Dead (not quite as interactive) which was released broken, Darghul remake (more like Ultima VI than VII), and Teugodar and the Alliance with Rome, which isn't an open world.
Click to expand...
If you've played all these, fair enough. It is true that some games out there are unique and we haven't had anything on the same level since. While these obviously weren't up to Ultima VII standards for you, I'm assuming most of these games were still enjoyable and not a waste of your time? I guess my point is that I feel like we have way more options than ever now. So even if you hate every game at E3, there's dozens of ones from smaller studios being released that barely get any marketing that might be just what you're looking for. There are so many games I'm interested in now, I seriously don't have enough time to keep up, whereas in the past, it used to be you could wait quite a while in between ones I was interested in, sometimes years.

While it sounds like you have a legitimate case of an unparalleled game, I think a lot of people complaining about games now v. the good old days simply aren't aware of just how much there is out there.
 
tetris42 said:
Those were just examples based on the kind he was describing as missing. I mean hell, out of your list, we have stuff like Divinity Original Sin 1 + 2, the newer Shadowrun games, Grim Dawn, Path of Exile, Axiom Verge, A fully fleshed out, fan-made remake of Metroid 2 was recently released, Environmental Station Alpha, Quake Champions and Unreal Tournament 4 is coming out, Strafe, Toxikk, etc.

Basically if you pick a game you like, odds are there going to be multiple other games out there that are very similar to it, often a bunch of them. That wasn't the case back in the good old days.
Click to expand...
Divinity Original Sin was a meme rpg, the kickstarter made the developer lazy and the game kinda fell flat after the initial hour or 2 of gameplay. Definitely not something I would go back to 10 years from now and a pox on Larian for suggesting it would even come close to Ultima 7.

The new Shadowrun games are way too linear, not enough freedom for something in the Shadowrun universe which is my favorite PnP game. Were you comparing it to Baldur's Gate? I guess they play similar but that's about as far as I would go.

Grim Dawn is a simplistic re-imagining of Diablo 2, extremely basic action RPG that emulates poorly the experience of D2. Path of Exile likewise doesn't stand up to its superior predecessor, but for different reasons. It's extremely slow paced in comparison, the environments are boring and tedious, and the itemization is severely lacking.

As for Axiom Verge and Environmental Station Alpha, they don't have the complex control mechanics that made Super Metroid good. The world design of the two games is also not as meticulously planned.

Quake Champions is Bethesda's response to Overwatch, it's a blatant attempt to steal some of that Blizzard pie and has close to nothing to do with the earlier Quake games except some names and weapons will be similar.

Unreal Tournament is just simply another unreal tournament, there's nothing really new about it just updated graphics.

I assume you mentioned Strafe as a joke. Toxikk was a cheap knockoff of Quake 3 but had abysmal level design, very bad sounds (extremely important for a competitive arena shooter) and extremely unbalanced weapons.

Now, the issue I take with your list is that they are all "remakes." None of them dare anything new or unique and even though they are newer and in most cases have better graphics the actual mechanics of the games are bare-bones. They don't live up to their predecessors. Most indie developers these days don't spend a lot of time coding, but instead hop on the already built game engines like Unity or Game Maker, spend most of their time and energy on creating assets then just sort of duct tape the game together.
Let's juxtapose today's game developer with a good 80's and 90's game developer. Ultima 2 and Ultima 3 were written almost entirely by one person in the assembly language, that is a true "indie" game. What's more, every sequel to those games the developer made the conscious decision to throw out all the old code and remake everything from scratch, and each iteration of the game was more and more complex which culminated with Ultima 7.

I do know exactly how many games are out there and in development. I'll try anything that might be good but it is becoming more and more rare to see a timeless gem be produced, by a AAA studio or otherwise. My whole point is I agree with you there is a whole lot more, but when we look back at the "good old days" it's not just with rose-colored nostalgia glasses. There actually is something better about the good games we remember, they were meticulously crafted as an art form by people who poured all their heart and soul into their work. Examples of this still exist today, because of the category of "something for everyone" has been created it's harder and harder to find the gold flecks in the sand.
 
Scizyr said:
Grim Dawn is a simplistic re-imagining of Diablo 2, extremely basic action RPG that emulates poorly the experience of D2. Path of Exile likewise doesn't stand up to its superior predecessor, but for different reasons. It's extremely slow paced in comparison, the environments are boring and tedious, and the itemization is severely lacking.
Click to expand...

Aww, Grim Dawn isn't that bad, its fun but repetitive gameplay wise. As far as PoE goes; you haven't played recently. With various mechanics of past leagues now in the game, it isn't slow or boring anymore (never was at endgame, imo, but def was slow at start). Strongboxes, Ghosts, Exiles, Essences, Corrupt Areas, Early-Strong Skills have made leveling very entertaining. Itemization never has been bad... I'm a bit of a fanboy though.

Scizyr said:
As for Axiom Verge and Environmental Station Alpha, they don't have the complex control mechanics that made Super Metroid good. The world design of the two games is also not as meticulously planned.
Click to expand...

Agreed. They didn't feel right to me. Also Felt like each room in AV was an individual puzzle rather than part of a world.
 
lilbabycat said:
Aww, Grim Dawn isn't that bad, its fun but repetitive gameplay wise. As far as PoE goes; you haven't played recently. With various mechanics of past leagues now in the game, it isn't slow or boring anymore (never was at endgame, imo, but def was slow at start). Strongboxes, Ghosts, Exiles, Essences, Corrupt Areas, Early-Strong Skills have made leveling very entertaining. Itemization never has been bad... I'm a bit of a fanboy though.
Click to expand...
Don't get me wrong I enjoyed Grim Dawn for what it was. I play almost all the Diablo 2 style games like Titan Quest, Dungeon Siege, Sacred, Nox, etc. They all simply aren't objectively better than Diablo 2.
I admit it's been a couple years since I've played PoE. I'll give it another go.
 
5150Joker said:
If I was a game programmer I'd opt to churn out as many $2-3 smartphone games/apps as I could to maximize revenue. PC and game console design obviously requires a lot more resources and time for questionable return.
Click to expand...
That's the worst attitude I ever saw. And this after you already demonstrated your racism in another topic.

Because we need more people who are so stingy that they would do shit work that they hate, over what they actually like to do, and produces something of value. Just for a few dollars more.
 
Scizyr said:
Divinity Original Sin was a meme rpg, the kickstarter made the developer lazy and the game kinda fell flat after the initial hour or 2 of gameplay. Definitely not something I would go back to 10 years from now and a pox on Larian for suggesting it would even come close to Ultima 7.

The new Shadowrun games are way too linear, not enough freedom for something in the Shadowrun universe which is my favorite PnP game. Were you comparing it to Baldur's Gate? I guess they play similar but that's about as far as I would go.

Grim Dawn is a simplistic re-imagining of Diablo 2, extremely basic action RPG that emulates poorly the experience of D2. Path of Exile likewise doesn't stand up to its superior predecessor, but for different reasons. It's extremely slow paced in comparison, the environments are boring and tedious, and the itemization is severely lacking.

As for Axiom Verge and Environmental Station Alpha, they don't have the complex control mechanics that made Super Metroid good. The world design of the two games is also not as meticulously planned.

Quake Champions is Bethesda's response to Overwatch, it's a blatant attempt to steal some of that Blizzard pie and has close to nothing to do with the earlier Quake games except some names and weapons will be similar.

Unreal Tournament is just simply another unreal tournament, there's nothing really new about it just updated graphics.

I assume you mentioned Strafe as a joke. Toxikk was a cheap knockoff of Quake 3 but had abysmal level design, very bad sounds (extremely important for a competitive arena shooter) and extremely unbalanced weapons.

Now, the issue I take with your list is that they are all "remakes." None of them dare anything new or unique and even though they are newer and in most cases have better graphics the actual mechanics of the games are bare-bones. They don't live up to their predecessors. Most indie developers these days don't spend a lot of time coding, but instead hop on the already built game engines like Unity or Game Maker, spend most of their time and energy on creating assets then just sort of duct tape the game together.
Let's juxtapose today's game developer with a good 80's and 90's game developer. Ultima 2 and Ultima 3 were written almost entirely by one person in the assembly language, that is a true "indie" game. What's more, every sequel to those games the developer made the conscious decision to throw out all the old code and remake everything from scratch, and each iteration of the game was more and more complex which culminated with Ultima 7.

I do know exactly how many games are out there and in development. I'll try anything that might be good but it is becoming more and more rare to see a timeless gem be produced, by a AAA studio or otherwise. My whole point is I agree with you there is a whole lot more, but when we look back at the "good old days" it's not just with rose-colored nostalgia glasses. There actually is something better about the good games we remember, they were meticulously crafted as an art form by people who poured all their heart and soul into their work. Examples of this still exist today, because of the category of "something for everyone" has been created it's harder and harder to find the gold flecks in the sand.
Click to expand...

I haven't had a chance to play Grim Dawn yet, but personally, I prefer Path of Exile to Diablo 2 in just about every way. I would say it's one of the best action RPGs made. Some more visual variety would be nice, but that's about the only bad thing I can say about it. As for Axiom Verge, I feel like it did some things better than Super Metroid, some things worse. The created world felt more exotic and alien than Super Metroid, the story was definitely more interesting, though I agree that the mechanics didn't feel as good. I still consider it a very memorable game and I would add it to a top 50 list or so of games I've played.

Since you're criticizing, you mentioned Hellgate London as being a great game. I thought the gameplay on that was AWFUL. It's one of the worst bullet sponge games I've seen. I was playing mostly as a marksman and there is NOTHING to praise about the combat as you get later into the game. It's incredibly grindy and repetitive with very little payoff. I'm amazed you can criticize PoE for being slow, yet turn around and praise that game. The level design is extremely uninspired and besides an outsourced intro cinematic, our whole storyline is just non-voice acted text blurbs that feels like a bad fanfic. Now the aesthetics WERE cool, no argument, but that's it. There are some good ideas in that game and godawful execution. The industry could EASILY make a better game than that even today.

As for rose colored glasses, there were some classics, but those were as few and far between as they are nowadays also. We are seeing a shift however towards studios with lots of money, afraid to do anything dramatically interesting v. indie studios, which can churn out garbage just as easily as something great, but likely not have enough resources for everything they would like to.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top