40,000 Unionized Verizon Workers Walk Off The Job

Uvaman2 said:
Wallstreet's free market lap dog school?
to all the posters saying unions are this and the other negative thing, nothing, none of it changes the fact that those that acumulated excess capital or control the means of production have excess power over too many... it is just that simple.
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So the solution to the supposed problem of "acumulated [sic] excess capital" is to advocate an economic system in which the government owns the factors of production and exercises "excess power over too many."

I think I'm starting to understand how communists think.
 
Uvaman2 said:
Wallstreet's free market lap dog school?
to all the posters saying unions are this and the other negative thing, nothing, none of it changes the fact that those that acumulated excess capital or control the means of production have excess power over too many... it is just that simple.
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In a perfect world neither side would have excess power, union/workers or management/owners. If we had a truly market driven economy then sometimes the workers would have more power (in constrained labor markets) and sometimes the company would (in excess labor markets). Ultimately that is how capitalism is supposed to work.
 
longblock454 said:
Verizon is bad, unions are worse.
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Agreed.

Uvaman2 said:
i know! verizon rips you off but gives you some service.. unions just built this country.. lift it out of poverty and abuse, nothing like Verizon incredible coverage.
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There was a time and place for unions. They have since out lived their original purpose. Now greedy employees like to strong arm their employers and make it difficult for companies to use American labor and stay competitive in a global market.
 
Unions make me laugh when people talk about the 1% - because they are just as evil, and in some cases, even worse.

Anyone want to really see how disgusting it is, do a study on Mike Madigan, a state senator in Chicago for the past 60 years or so who has even members of his own party afraid of him, has an army of unions and trial lawyers at his disposal, how he only has to make a call to have a "protest" show up at an opportune time (unions gather the protestors and bus them where they need to go - this is what caused the Trump rally to be canceled, not some "outcry"), look up how state college officials can't even come out in support of a bi-partisan budget because Madigan explicitly told them they aren't allowed to do shit until after the election is over this November, etc.

When you realize the puppet master pulling the stings, the puppets are just sad sacks, parroting whatever their puppet master tells them to keep said puppet master in power...


Did I mention that it was Madigan who got President Obama to campaign for a local state senator to overthrow one of his own party who came out against him? Think about that - a state senator told the president of the united states what to do. It was one of only 2 races where Obama directly lended his voice and support to a commercial and campaign of that small a scale.

Who's really in power? Its a sick, fascinating study on the Chicago political machine, the rampant corruption, and yes, unions are a huge part of that.
 
With the exception of about 40 retail store employees in the New York area Verizon Wireless is completely non-union. This strike is being driven by union employees at Verizon landline. The biggest sticking point in the negotiations has been regarding medical contributions. The rest of the 100,000 non-union employees at the company contribute a reasonable 10% towards the cost of their medical premiums. Union employees currently have 100% of their medical expenses covered as part of their contract. They are objecting to any change that would force them to start contributing to their medical premiums. While I'd love to have all my medical coverage paid for too, it's not in line with the rest of the private sector. They continue to negotiate as though they are not in a dying industry. Those of us working on the wireless side of the business object to subsidizing the costs of their above market benefits with the profits from our business unit. If there is any doubt as to why Verizon continues to sell off the legacy landline business the denial of the labor unions to recognize the changing conditions in the home phone business is one big reason. I've worked in the airline business for half of my career and watched labor unions bankrupt the industry with unrealistic compensation and work rule demands. These organizations are a cancer that exist though legalized extorsion. Expanding right to work laws nationwide would be a good start towards limiting their power. Don't buy the narritive that these are folks that are being paid minimum wage and being exploited by corporate America. That just isn't the reality of the situation.
 
Dan_D said:
There was a time and place for unions. They have since out lived their original purpose. Now greedy employees like to strong arm their employers and make it difficult for companies to use American labor and stay competitive in a global market.
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To keep it with Verizon how are they competing in a global market ... They are not is that the unions fault ?

As soon as a country as China which more or less has a silly amount of work hours per day is involved you can kiss your change of competing goodbye. That is why people choose to go to America or any other country because workers rights are far better protected, that not a lot of the companies do it speaks for itself , greed.

Or did you think that the workers at Foxconn were competing in a new national sport ?
 
Dan_D said:
There was a time and place for unions. They have since out lived their original purpose. Now greedy employees like to strong arm their employers and make it difficult for companies to use American labor and stay competitive in a global market.
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Yes, big megacorporations like Verizon aren't greedy, predatory, or abusive at all. They only care about America and Americans and want to make the world a better place.

koolaid.gif
 
Unions cater to the privileged worker that can afford dues.

Someone has to fight for the little guy.

(It's turtles all the way down)
 
Shameless Liar said:
Yes, big megacorporations like Verizon aren't greedy, predatory, or abusive at all. They only care about America and Americans and want to make the world a better place.

koolaid.gif
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Careful, we wouldn't want the unions to bankrupt Verizon like they did the airline industry...oh wait...
 
Disposed said:
They will. With less pay, less benefits and crappy work conditions...
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Actually, I used to for for Version FiOS department which was covered under CWA.

It was the most horrible place I have ever worked, the rules and regulations forced on the employees are so horrible, people had pre-printed non-dated letters of resignation stored in their desks. (Because a quit looks better on your resume than getting fired)

They work on a system of "occurrences", 3 occurrences in a 6th month period is immediate termination. The following things (among others) counts as an occurrence.

  • Arriving to work more than 1 second late.
  • Coming back from Lunch more than 1 second late.
  • Coming back from one of your two 15 minutes breaks more than 1 second late.
  • Unscheduled Absence.
It is literally impossible to meet those rules, it was so bad that people would be scared to take lunch or even use the bathroom.

During my short employment with that company, these are the things I have seen.

  • Person fired for assisting an eldery lady during a traffic accident and saving said lady's life because he car caught on fire, even though he brought in a police report.
  • Person fired for clocking in 3 seconds late from break.
  • Person fired because his wife had terminal cancer and received too many occurrences trying to spend his last days with her.

They also employ a special team of investigators to follow people who have called out sick and catch them "not being sick" (as in going to the mall or something), THEY THEN SEND THESE STORIES OUT COMPANY WIDE IN A FUCKING NEWSLETTER!



The Union CWA is doing NOTHING to protect the employees.
 
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I assume a member of my family who does FIOS tech support was one of these. I have not talked to her yet.
 
leeleatherwood said:
Actually, I used to for for Version FiOS department which was covered under CWA.

It was the most horrible place I have ever worked, the rules and regulations forced on the employees are so horrible, people had pre-printed non-dated letters of resignation stored in their desks.

They work on a system of "occurrences", 3 occurrences in a 6th month period is immediate termination. The following things (among others) counts as an occurrence.

  • Arriving to work more than 1 second late.
  • Coming back from Lunch more than 1 second late.
  • Coming back from one of your two 15 minutes breaks more than 1 second late.
  • Unscheduled Absence.
It is literally impossible to meet those rules, it was so bad that people would be scared to take lunch or even use the bathroom.

During my short employment with that company, these are the things I have seen.

  • Person fired for assisting an eldery lady during a traffic accident and saving said lady's life because he car caught on fire, even though he brought in a police report.
  • Person fired for clocking in 3 seconds late from break.
  • Person fired because his wife had terminal cancer and received too many occurrences trying to spend his last days with her.

They also employ a special team of investigators to follow people who have called out sick and catch them "not being sick" (as in going to the mall or something), THEY THEN SEND THESE STORIES OUT COMPANY WIDE IN A FUCKING NEWSLETTER!



The Union CWA is doing NOTHING to protect the employees.
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Those are impossible rules to follow? You must be fucking kidding me.

Show up to work on time, come back from breaks on time. Oh fuck me how will i ever do it!

Also i call bullshit on the cancer story. If they have been there a year FMLA covers that. If they have not been there a year sucks for them but thats life. Employers employ people because they need them there.
 
mope54 said:
Careful, we wouldn't want the unions to bankrupt Verizon like they did the airline industry...oh wait...
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I wish I could go through life with such a simplistic view on things.

Airlines declare bankruptcy as a tool to renegotiate labor contracts. Just as a union can strike for their employer to eventually succumb and agree to new terms, the employer can declare bankruptcy to invalidate contracts and hash out new terms that will increase their margins.

It's not a case of them being perpetually drained of money as you might want to believe.
 
leeleatherwood said:
You are just being argumentative to be argumentative. You probably have some kush kush job where you take take off to Starbucks to get a fag latte anytime you want.
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LOL No. I work jobs where be here at 8 means be clocked in and at your fucking station ready to WORK at 8 not come strolling in at 8 then start working at 830, be back from break at 1 means be at your station working at 1...

If you really think be on time, come back from breaks on time are unreasonable rules you are the problem. Calling me a fucking cuck because your worthless ass cant manage to show up to work on time.
 
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Pieter3dnow said:
To keep it with Verizon how are they competing in a global market ... They are not is that the unions fault ?

As soon as a country as China which more or less has a silly amount of work hours per day is involved you can kiss your change of competing goodbye. That is why people choose to go to America or any other country because workers rights are far better protected, that not a lot of the companies do it speaks for itself , greed.

Or did you think that the workers at Foxconn were competing in a new national sport ?
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Oh how the economic ignorant view the world...

Silly amount of work hours huh? So an average of 8.5 hours a day are a silly amount of hours huh? Or were you just going off of media mythology that they work 24 hours a day and not actual fact?

When labor prices go down, that often means productivity is up, and as such goods cost go down and standard of living goes up, this is a technology forum after all, we of all people have seen how much cheaper things have become, even though a majority of manufacture is over seas. But maybe we should bring iPhone manufacturing to the USA to be filled with Union workers, I am sure the quality of living will go up when people are buying $2k a pop iPhones. Also glad you brought up Foxconn, because people fail to understand cultural differences to China, where suicide is far more accepted, and they have a world high rate, however, workers at the Foxconn plants have a 1/4, yes 1/4 suicide rate compared to the rest of the country. They also make more than the average worker in China can make, the jobs are so sought after that when they hold a hiring day they have hundreds of thousands show up for a chance to get a job. But hey, lets not look at facts, rather lets use strawmen, buzz words and try to push an agenda.

China is a labor rich country, when you have an extremely poor population, you have an abundance of people looking for a job, as such, people are willing to work for far less because the market is saturated, this is basic supply/demand. The media often rails on companies for sending work over seas to be filled my some "poor over worked child", when in reality they have seen nothing but standard of living improvements because of these jobs, or are you really suggesting that these people would be better off with no job at all? Just like we are about to have once the 15/hr min takes place here in the US, think unemployment is high now? Just wait.
 
A company will sell a product with the exact price to absolutely maximise profit and benefit to the company given their understanding of the supply/demand and market conditions. If they believe selling a product or service for $1 more per unit/period will make enough extra profit to pose a benefit over the loss of total sales, they will do it. If they can LEGALLY get away with contracts and plans that minimise the consumer's rights and maximise their profit and projected figures, they will. They will perform illegal actions if the legal ramifications (fees, fines and legal costs) are outweighed by the profits of the actions taken.


But when employees do it: Fuck them, right?
 
Hi All

this is a quote by FDR

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

"By living wages , I mean more than a bare subsistence level. I mean the wages of a decent living"
 
jtm55 said:
Hi All

this is a quote by FDR

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

"By living wages , I mean more than a bare subsistence level. I mean the wages of a decent living"
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The current national minimum wage is a token wage, no one can live off of it virtually anywhere in the country. Even as a job for a kid or student, it's not enough to do much with without other income or assistance from family. I don't see how a ton of jobs like these do anything than maybe help employment numbers look better while people are still struggling to pay the bills.
 
jtm55 said:
Hi All

this is a quote by FDR

"No business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country."

"By living wages , I mean more than a bare subsistence level. I mean the wages of a decent living"
Click to expand...
According to one article the striking workers earn an average of $130,000 in pay and benefits. If they can't live on that then perhaps Verizon isn't the problem.
 
kbrickley said:
According to one article the striking workers earn an average of $130,000 in pay and benefits. If they can't live on that then perhaps Verizon isn't the problem.
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If that's the case this quote wasn't for them. it was for some of the other post where workers here in the US aren't as fortunate
 
SSDD. I have really mixed emotions about this whole situation.

First of all, I am an ex Verizon wireline employee. I was part of the union. I also was laid off by the company several months the last strike in 2011. My paycheck and benefits was nothing like what the company nor the union spouts. As a matter of fact, there were 2 tiers within the union I was in. I have have to laugh at the fact about how the union is fighting for this and that. Reality was quite different.

My work history was nearly 4 years with Verizon. The division I worked in was required to produce a minimum of 5 jobs completed jobs per 8 hour work shift. This work included everything from the Central Office to the wall jack. We would not be responsible for line splicing but pair transfers. Yes some jobs were easy like replace a jack in someone's house. Others required more work like long service drops or additional troubleshooting for a return ticket. Now when I first started there, a technician would check 3-5 pairs and return the ticket. Then a new work rule would be put into place to check the entire terminal. A few months later, we had to report all defects to an engineering office to have the terminal returned for splicing. Then you have a pick a pair terminal which is jut a cover over the cable. You just pick what ever you want. Except the pick a pair has been picked for about the last 40 years. Not much left. It doesn't sound so bad except mix in the weather. Try performing the work in all 4 seasons. All forms of precipitation, various shades of light (high noon to total darkness), add in various temperatures changes. Add in some safety regulations and rules like pole testing, proper ladder set up, traffic management. (I cringe when I see a cableco tech on the pole with no safety in place. Barely a cone on the road. No tie offs to the pole or span.) Not to mention overall surroundings like urban, suburban or rural. A tech in our division was shot at. A personal experience of mine was a Neo Nazi made threats towards a co worker who was Hispanic while we were re attaching his service drop to his premise and the pole on the street after a storm that rolled though. I had a bear or two pass through while working a rural route towards the end of my career. Reality is the work can be fairly physical as well as mentally challenging with environmental considerations.

Now here is the fun part, I felt animosity on many sides. Company policy. Customers. The union. Even coworkers. I laughed at the fact they claimed everyone was equal. Many in the company thought techs in the division I was employed in were POS, garbage and everything else under the sun. Some techs would go as far as to block service points to our techs. Tell us to basically F off and what not. Funny thing is our division was a comprise made between the union and the company to prevent layoffs within the main body known as core. the union crying about hostile work environment is true but it perpetrated on both sides. To recap, I was second tier union employee. We made about $15/hr less than our tier 1 counterparts. We were not allowed to perform other work except what was given to us by some agreement. We were not allowed to learn other aspects of the trade like splicing or line conditioning. This really messes with your head and attitude towards things.

Dispatching or company policy. Don't try to arrange it to make sense. There was a time in which I had 2 jobs in one area and 3 jobs in another. I arranged my work to cover the territory with effectiveness. When I dispatched on to a job, I got a very angry call from a dispatch supervisor saying I was suppose to go to the other job next as it was considered a "presidential level complaint." Want something done at Verizon, find some real high up ex's contact info. Boom! you are next on the list. Turns out this Fortune 500 executive had a problem with his phone line. It rang 911. The police showed up and saw him sleeping on his couch. They busted the door down to pretty much giving him a heart attack. Since this ticket had no indicators, I arranged the work to be efficient. This dispatcher got her boss on the phone who got my boss's boss's boss on the phone. Then she hung up with me. 2 minutes later I get a call from my boss asking what going on. I told him and he agreed with me about the rearrangement. Then he let's me know he has be on the call out with me since due to the level of complaint. He calls his boss to call off the dogs. Long story short. I finally dispatch on the ticket. I had to wait for my local manager to show on site. While waiting for him, I spoke with the wife of this executive. She said they didn't expect all of this response. My boss finally arrived and had to give a speech about why this repair is being done this way. He was not worried that my work was going to be unacceptable. It was because 4 different levels of managers were involved just in our state. 2 others in another. He had a whole write up he had to do about the repair. He was laughing about this trouble ticket since he was a former lineman for another company. He knew I knew what I was doing and why it was being done in that way. My boss had to even document my safety practices within the work area. About the only real person here besides the customer, was my boss and myself.

In 2011, I go on strike with the union. Many of us did not want to but you dare not cross the line. One of my fellow coworkers was made to feel uncomfortable when he vote no to a strike authorization. Our shop steward thought it was not union like to not vote for a strike. My coworker pointed out to him that if we strike, he would not be able to pay bills or take care of his family. He was helping his mother out. the shop steward said he should have saved his money. When the strike came, I was on vacation. I find out about it waking up on a Sunday morning with a text from all my co workers who I shared my personal number with. I will tell you one thing. It sucks. I was on vacation wondering about my job's status and how long I would be out on strike for. Luckily, my wife's paycheck would be able to cover bills for awhile. After getting back from vacation, I get a call from a union rep stating I need to report to a location for picket duty. Walk in a circle for 4 hours with a sign that didn't represent me or my division. I got the rah rah from the group leader about how to picket and where we could go. I wound up just waving to people entering the local HQ. We had cop car on our picket that had to maintain traffic control so we would not walk into traffic or block it. After the picket. We were told to go home and a rep would contact us for our next assignment which wound up being my garage I was based out of. We had a real cream of the crop bunch. Two of the techs would sit in lawn chairs holding up signs. I just walked up and down the road. Waving to people who honked or what ever. After a couple of weeks the strike was called off. We were told to report back to the garage by a certain date. During this time, I spent time with my daughter. Many people who knew me knew I was out of work. They helped me and my family out in anyway they could. However, the strike changed my overall outlook on the union and the company.

In 2012, the beginning of the year it was normal. The work group I worked with banded together and took a transfer to another garage to work for the boss I had mention earlier. We all knew this boss took care of us. He did not try hard tactics with us and we responded in kind. He was actually happy to have all of us back since he considered us family. He knew our names, our spouse's and or kid's names. By the end of January, there was going to be a realignment within the garage to make things better. A higher up came in and even laid out the plan of attack and how there would be better action towards plant issues, etc,etc, etc... 2 days later, we were all back in the that same room being told the company has decided to lay us off except for 20 techs from the garage and only this garage. The company decided to shut the division down. We all looked at each other saying WTF about what was just told to us 48 hours earlier. Then at the end we were told we could go home for the rest of the day as a paid. There was a Fed Ex letter on my table when I got home with my separation notice. My wife had already knew about the fed ex delivery as I told her that I was let go. My boss called everyone effected by the end of the day. He was shocked and devastated this happened. The next 60 days we were dead men walking. He brought us in for a meeting every 2 weeks from then on to make sure we were doing OK. He helped us in any way possible. If we had a job interview, he got out on time. He felt it was his responsibility. My boss conducted a 2 hour field visit to each one of his techs for a one on one as well. Speaking of which I just talked to him not to long ago. He too is looking for another job as his was being destroyed.

In the end, the union did nothing for me. It did not protect my position nor the 340 others like it. They also cost other non union positions their jobs as they were support staff like tool room clerks or return desk clerks. As for the company, they did nothing for me as well. I went to therapy for awhile to help cope with the job. My wife and I almost split up because of the demands of the job. We worked 7 days a week on a regular rotating shift. 3 day weekends are nice but you could also be working 17 days in a row cause of a manager's whim. I dealt with some really lousy coworkers and managers. The public sucks. People suck. If anything, I became a better person understanding people in a different way. When my current employment gets to me, I remind myself about Verizon. Then things turn into a walk in the park on a sunny day. The company was just as responsible as I watched what they did to customers and employees alike. While I was there, we were threaten with a lay off each year I worked there including one that took place in 2009. Heck I was threatened with one after 6 months working there. This is not the greatest feeling in the world with a newborn and knowing I just got a good job.

One last thing... When I left, my base pay was $47K. My benefits were not as great as what was being reported. We had to kick in for our healthcare plan. Our HCP was nothing like what my wife has which she pays for. My retirement was a mix of a 401k and I found out we had a small pension but nothing big. I have to laugh when big Red says the average wireline worker is making $150K /yr. I certainly didn't see it nor did my fellow workers. They guys that did make it over, didn't get anything more except different working conditions. Today, I work in a totally different industry. I keep up with a couple of my ex and current Verizon co workers. The ex guys did pretty well for ourselves over the last few years. The guys who surviving the cuts still have jobs but they said conditions are worse than ever. One guy is actually looking at quitting but the strike delayed those plans. I support the workers as I know what the job is about. I hope to see those men and women back on the job soon. It is no fun on the picket line no matter what interpretation is made.
 
shaggy77 said:
SSDD.
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Damn, man.

As to the pay, is the union on strike only in NY? That might explain the $150K/year average compensation package they're talking about. If you're making $100K/year, (not a lot in NYC) you're looking at something like $6K in 401k matching, a crap ton in health care, $8K in tuition assistance, $5K in short term incentives, $3K in profit sharing... It adds up.

It really worries me reading things like this. I work for Verizon Wireless, (not wireline - yay!) and I've loved my job since the day I got it. Honest to goodness training, good benefits, great managers, a pleasant working environment, and compensation that matches my self-valuation. I don't want to go through the kind of crap you describe.
 
No surprise. Reality is a lot more complicated than a small article on the internet no matter how much the human mind wants to shave things down to a=good/b=bad. Guess what? Not all Union workers are total crap who deserve to lose their jobs. Guess what? There are some that are. The majority of folk sit somewhere squarely in the middle of that.

Sad part is I don't see this ending well. Just like following the Hostess union drama a few years back I figure things will not quite be the worker's fault as such, but they'll end up losing their jobs & replaced by non-union workers & the internet will crucify them & say "serves `em right, those greedy union bastidges!" no matter who is pissing away the money.
 
Miah said:
No surprise. Reality is a lot more complicated than a small article on the internet no matter how much the human mind wants to shave things down to a=good/b=bad. Guess what? Not all Union workers are total crap who deserve to lose their jobs. Guess what? There are some that are. The majority of folk sit somewhere squarely in the middle of that.

Sad part is I don't see this ending well. Just like following the Hostess union drama a few years back I figure things will not quite be the worker's fault as such, but they'll end up losing their jobs & replaced by non-union workers & the internet will crucify them & say "serves `em right, those greedy union bastidges!" no matter who is pissing away the money.
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Hatred of unions is rarely about the workers, unless it is about how they just go along with being used.

It's about the teamsters and the politically connected using these workers for their own gain, be it money, or power and influence.

Unions need to die. A person fired from a shit company has more legal rights than an indentured servant union worker.
 
Disposed said:
LOL No. I work jobs where be here at 8 means be clocked in and at your fucking station ready to WORK at 8 not come strolling in at 8 then start working at 830, be back from break at 1 means be at your station working at 1...

If you really think be on time, come back from breaks on time are unreasonable rules you are the problem. Calling me a fucking cuck because your worthless ass cant manage to show up to work on time.
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If you aren't stupid then yes you are a cuck. A very long time ago I used to work for a company that was like that. They would determine lateness down to the minute (as in 8:01 is late), but it never seemed to apply when clocking out. Sorry that's not being professional that's just being a douche plain and simple. Why? Because if you want someone to be at their desk working at exactly 8:00 for example then that means they aren't just in the building, but that they are logged into their computer etc. In order for anyone to achieve that goal they have to give up unpaid (yes look at that work word for a bit and let it soak in) time in order to do it. This isn't too big of a deal... if your building is the size of a closet. But if you work in a large building it can take anywhere for 5 to 10 minutes to ride a damn elevator each way.

Furthermore, there's a big fucking difference between walking around an office building early as shit, versus staying at home and getting blown. Trust me one of them feels awfully like work the other one makes my toes curl and seeing Bob by the fucking copier isn't anything like being blown so to me that's work. Furthermore calls at home, on the way to work, or even when fully asleep are never factored into that bullshit....EVER. Answer emails before 8 but don't drive and text (Huh?). Most Americans (damn near all of us) work more than 40 hours. So I'm not sure where this self aggrandizement in being treated like a bitch comes from. This ain't 50 shades of grey.

So your sphincter stayed intact for your lubeless journey around work. Great! Congratulations! You don't win a damn thing... not even a cookie. You don't ride into the sunset. It doesn't make you a better man. In fact some would say it's kind of stupid to give some one your time without being paid.
 
Zion Halcyon said:
Unions need to die. A person fired from a shit company has more legal rights than an indentured servant union worker.
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You think companies fight unions because they really want to treat their workers better and pay them more???? Wow. What are you smoking?
 
kac77 said:
If you aren't stupid then yes you are a cuck. A very long time ago I used to work for a company that was like that. They would determine lateness down to the minute (as in 8:01 is late), but it never seemed to apply when clocking out. Sorry that's not being professional that's just being a douche plain and simple. Why? Because if you want someone to be at their desk working at exactly 8:00 for example then that means they aren't just in the building, but that they are logged into their computer etc. In order for anyone to achieve that goal they have to give up unpaid (yes look at that work word for a bit and let it soak in) time in order to do it. This isn't too big of a deal... if your building is the size of a closet. But if you work in a large building it can take anywhere for 5 to 10 minutes to ride a damn elevator each way.

Furthermore, there's a big fucking difference between walking around an office building early as shit, versus staying at home and getting blown. Trust me one of them feels awfully like work the other one makes my toes curl and seeing Bob by the fucking copier isn't anything like being blown so to me that's work. Furthermore calls at home, on the way to work, or even when fully asleep are never factored into that bullshit....EVER. Answer emails before 8 but don't drive and text (Huh?). Most Americans (damn near all of us) work more than 40 hours. So I'm not sure where this self aggrandizement in being treated like a bitch comes from. This ain't 50 shades of grey.

So your sphincter stayed intact for your lubeless journey around work. Great! Congratulations! You don't win a damn thing... not even a cookie. You don't ride into the sunset. It doesn't make you a better man. In fact some would say it's kind of stupid to give some one your time without being paid.
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I have absolutely nothing invested in this conversation, however this post seemed like an extended version of the incoherent rambling phone call from Guns n Roses Knocking on heaven's door.
 
When you show up at exactly on time out of fear of losing your job, then there is something wrong with the business. I am on flex hours with no hour tracking and I and a few others are always the last to leave at night. Work needs to get done, doesn't matter what time it is. The group that is there at 8:00am is the same people that leave at 5:00pm soon as the clock ticks whether they got their work done or not. I know not all businesses can operate in such ways, but we need to get this 8hr/40hr mentally out of the work place. It is an arbitrary set of hours that we just are stuck with even when statistically only 5-6hours of work comes from an 8hour shift and when the shift is shorter the useful time versus clocked in time get closer together in ratio.

Though now it seems like many companies are doing less like i think 35hours and they don't have to provide health insurance?
 
Monkey God said:
Talking to people today who work for Verizon, they tell me the non-union employees have much better benefits, like bonuses. Odd.
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Not odd at all.

Straight out of a steward's mouth at my current workplace, all the non-union places in the same industry in the area start at better pay, have better benefits, and also productivity based incentives. This place does not.
 
heatlesssun said:
The current national minimum wage is a token wage, no one can live off of it virtually anywhere in the country. Even as a job for a kid or student, it's not enough to do much with without other income or assistance from family. I don't see how a ton of jobs like these do anything than maybe help employment numbers look better while people are still struggling to pay the bills.
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Minimum wage is a STARTING wage, usually paid to high school kids or people learning a new job.
If you are trying to raise a family on minimum wage you are doing something seriously wrong.

Even my first fast food job in high school paid me slightly more than minimum wage, because I was willing to work the night shift on Friday/Saturday night.
My first job out of college (just a 2 year Jr. college as that's all I could afford) paid more than 2x the minimum wage, and after a few months of proving myself, my pay was doubled.

Raising the minimum wage to $15 like they are doing out here in California is the wrong way to increase pay. All it's going to do is destroy even more low wage job.
 
nutzo said:
Minimum wage is a STARTING wage, usually paid to high school kids or people learning a new job.
If you are trying to raise a family on minimum wage you are doing something seriously wrong.

Even my first fast food job in high school paid me slightly more than minimum wage, because I was willing to work the night shift on Friday/Saturday night.
My first job out of college (just a 2 year Jr. college as that's all I could afford) paid more than 2x the minimum wage, and after a few months of proving myself, my pay was doubled.

Raising the minimum wage to $15 like they are doing out here in California is the wrong way to increase pay. All it's going to do is destroy even more low wage job.
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You'll find it's nearly impossible to live off minimum wage without kids let alone with them outside of working 70 hours a week. Especially in a state like California who's cost of living would easily eat up most of that wage every month.

Never understood the free market union hate, unions are not of the government, they are a service provided to groups of workers to adjust their bargaining ability, for a fee, in relation to their employer who unlike them probably has someone who understands labor laws. Most unions only operate against larger corporations and their reach and membership has decreased over their years due to anti-union lobbying by corporations. Unions negotiate a work contract workers follow such a contract, it laysout a clean and specific agreement in which both parties are somewhat happy about instead of workers accepting w.e a corporation tells them they'll work for.
 
Darunion said:
When you show up at exactly on time out of fear of losing your job, then there is something wrong with the business. I am on flex hours with no hour tracking and I and a few others are always the last to leave at night. Work needs to get done, doesn't matter what time it is. The group that is there at 8:00am is the same people that leave at 5:00pm soon as the clock ticks whether they got their work done or not. I know not all businesses can operate in such ways, but we need to get this 8hr/40hr mentally out of the work place. It is an arbitrary set of hours that we just are stuck with even when statistically only 5-6hours of work comes from an 8hour shift and when the shift is shorter the useful time versus clocked in time get closer together in ratio.
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Out here in California they have been cracking down on flexible hours, and at my company it's made for a lot of unhappy employees.

We now have to have the hourly employees clock in and out to track their time. They are no longer allowed to eat lunch at their desks because of the chance they might do some actual work like answer the phone (some liked to check their personal email, surf the web, etc. during lunch). They also can't take off early one day and make up the time the next day, as they would now have to be paid over time.

Luckily I'm still considered salary, and they are flexible on the time as long as the work gets done. When I dial in a night to work on the servers, I come in late or leave early the next day.
Being able to mostly set my own hours is the best part on the job.
 
Uvaman2 said:
i know! verizon rips you off but gives you some service.. unions just built this country.. lift it out of poverty and abuse, nothing like Verizon incredible coverage.
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Do a little reading on the history of what unions were... and what they have become. I won't disagree that in the depression era there was some nasty shady shit going on. Unions were doing great things back then.

Fast forward to today: they are just used as an excuse to collect money and strong arm companies into cushy packages. We live in a time where OSHA and many other federal offices make the work economy safe/fair/etc. Most of the time (UAW I'm looking at you) you have untrained, unskilled people being paid far above their actual value, you want a 30 hour work week, full pension, excellent insurance, and if for some reason X company doesn't provide latte's every other week of the month, they call for a strike.

Fuck today's unions -- a group of largely bitchy whiney people get together and threaten a company into doing what they want event though what they have is more than fair. Again, UAW is who I have in mind here... I'm not up to speed on this verizon piece, but my logic is, if you hate the job or the pay, find a new one or invest in yourself skill wise to move up or around on the ladder.
 
Semantics said:
You'll find it's nearly impossible to live off minimum wage without kids let alone with them outside of working 70 hours a week. Especially in a state like California who's cost of living would easily eat up most of that wage every month.

Never understood the free market union hate, unions are not of the government, they are a service provided to groups of workers to adjust their bargaining ability, for a fee, in relation to their employer who unlike them probably has someone who understands labor laws. Most unions only operate against larger corporations and their reach and membership has decreased over their years due to anti-union lobbying by corporations. Unions negotiate a work contract workers follow such a contract, it laysout a clean and specific agreement in which both parties are somewhat happy about instead of workers accepting w.e a corporation tells them they'll work for.
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Again, if you're trying to raise kids on minimum wage, you're doing something wrong. If you're working at minimum wage, you shouldn't have kids, period. Unless you're absolutely willing to put in the necessary hours to make it happen at minimum wage, instead of crying for all the welfare and minimum wage increases you can get. Also, it is possible to live off minimum wage. Hard, and sacrifices have to be made, but possible. Additionally, you're doing something wrong if you stay at the bottom for more than a few years.

Like many things, unions are great in theory, but have become corrupted by the people at the top and the process. Same thing with communism and socialism. No ideal large scale endeavor ever lasts, because human greed and selfishness will eventually corrupt it.
 
Tsumi said:
Again, if you're trying to raise kids on minimum wage, you're doing something wrong. If you're working at minimum wage, you shouldn't have kids, period. Unless you're absolutely willing to put in the necessary hours to make it happen at minimum wage, instead of crying for all the welfare and minimum wage increases you can get. Also, it is possible to live off minimum wage. Hard, and sacrifices have to be made, but possible. Additionally, you're doing something wrong if you stay at the bottom for more than a few years.

Like many things, unions are great in theory, but have become corrupted by the people at the top and the process. Same thing with communism and socialism. No ideal large scale endeavor ever lasts, because human greed and selfishness will eventually corrupt it.
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The minimum wage was introduced as a minimum living wage. Many people, especially in highly populated areas, cannot live off of minimum wage as it is now. In fact, minimum wage is lower than it has been in a long time when you adjust for inflation.

minimum-wage-inflation-large.png

an old graph, but it illustrates a trend

Then when you look at other things, like college tuition:
6a00d83451b4ba69e2014e60100c43970c-550wi.png


Additionally, you're doing something wrong if you stay at the bottom for more than a few years.
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Not really.


I'm neither here nor there on unions, but we need to get some facts straight.
 
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