So will Broadwell be drop-in upgrade on Haswell boards or not?

Zangmonkey

Zangmonkey

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Many websites state that Broadwell will require a new motherboard, as a new chipset will be required for some different power regulation...

Yet I have found this quote on a number of articles, too
Intel CEO Brian Krzanich said:
Broadwell and Haswell are pin compatible, so for the most part this will slide into existing systems
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So I'm a bit lost on what to conclude here.... can anybody clarify?
 
Unless something major changed and I am not aware, Broadwell will be SOC only. It may be compatible with Haswell SOC parts. I do not expect another socketed CPU from Intel till Skylake. If any of this plan has changed, we will know for sure after CES next month.
 
Isn't Skylake suppose to support DDR4? It wouldn't make much sense to make two new chipsets.
 
No one here can clarify. :p That's a new bit of information directly from Intel.

The data sheet for chipsets launching with Haswell refresh show that it still uses a LGA 1150 socket and that is also compatible with "Broadwell-LGA". The same data sheet shows that some socket pins have changed functionality, but that doesn't necessarily mean existing motherboard designs, after revision(s), won't be drop in compatible with LGA versions of Haswell refresh or Broadwell CPUs.

Unless Intel clarifies, there's really no further information. That is besides Charlie being wrong about lack of upcoming LGA 1150 Broadwell CPUs. :p
 
Until Intel clarifies it and get off the hookah, I'm going with the mindset that Broadwell will not be drop-in replacement for Haswell.

Why?

This:
http://www.extremetech.com/computin...ape-indicates-major-improvements-over-haswell

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7318/intel-demos-14nm-broadwell-up-to-30-lower-power-than-haswell

IntelBroadwell-640x353.jpg


Broadwell is much smaller than Haswell. It's a reconfigured, improved Haswell architecture if going by the ExtremeTech article. The on-die voltage regulator was also removed supposedly.

So, this is either SoC-only AND/OR it's both SoC and new socket OR Intel magically finds a way to make a smaller CPU package fit on a larger CPU socket.
 
octoberasian said:
Until Intel clarifies it and get off the hookah, I'm going with the mindset that Broadwell will not be drop-in replacement for Haswell.

Why?

This:
http://www.extremetech.com/computin...ape-indicates-major-improvements-over-haswell

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7318/intel-demos-14nm-broadwell-up-to-30-lower-power-than-haswell

IntelBroadwell-640x353.jpg


Broadwell is much smaller than Haswell. It's a reconfigured, improved Haswell architecture if going by the ExtremeTech article. The on-die voltage regulator was also removed supposedly.

So, this is either SoC-only AND/OR it's both SoC and new socket OR Intel magically finds a way to make a smaller CPU package fit on a larger CPU socket.
Click to expand...

The more recent link I posted from Anand indicated Broadwell available in multiple form factors.
 
octoberasian said:
Until Intel clarifies it and get off the hookah, I'm going with the mindset that Broadwell will not be drop-in replacement for Haswell.
Click to expand...
Those are "1 chip solution" BGA versions, with the CPU and chipset in one package. It's not representative at all with what size LGA or "2 chip solution" BGA Broadwell would be. Shrinking the size of a product whose main feature is reduced motherboard footprint shouldn't be too surprising.

Intel data sheet documentation does show there is a LGA 1150 version of Broadwell coming at least for the new chipsets released for the Haswell refresh CPUs, which does support what Intel's CEO said in the OP's quote.
 
octoberasian said:
So, this is either SoC-only AND/OR it's both SoC and new socket OR Intel magically finds a way to make a smaller CPU package fit on a larger CPU socket.
Click to expand...

There is absolutely no reason that they couldn't repackage the chips. Those pics are BGA packages (which, btw, haswell ships on for mobile) and really have nothing to do with the size of the desktop model. As long as the pinout is compatible, the physical package can be made to work


oh, and there would be nothing magical about taking a smaller CPU package and fitting it into a larger CPU socket. Just put the chip onto a bigger interposer

Who can forget the slocket? Thats not all that different is it?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Slocket_PCB_Slot_1_to_PGA370.jpg

Or look at the old school socket 603 Xeons... looks like small package mounted onto a larger interposer (which it is judging from the ones I have)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/52/KL_Intel_Xeon_Prestonia-512_Socket_603_SL6EL.jpg

Even more relevant is this thing:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/processors-boards,520-5.html
 
Yep, digital circuitry's just about connecting the pins. Physical size is (mostly) irrelevant.

That being said, I think Intel has a track record of just ditching sockets for (seemingly) no good reason lately...
 
octoberasian said:
Until Intel clarifies it and get off the hookah, I'm going with the mindset that Broadwell will not be drop-in replacement for Haswell.

Why?

This:
http://www.extremetech.com/computin...ape-indicates-major-improvements-over-haswell

http://www.anandtech.com/show/7318/intel-demos-14nm-broadwell-up-to-30-lower-power-than-haswell

IntelBroadwell-640x353.jpg


Broadwell is much smaller than Haswell. It's a reconfigured, improved Haswell architecture if going by the ExtremeTech article. The on-die voltage regulator was also removed supposedly.

So, this is either SoC-only AND/OR it's both SoC and new socket OR Intel magically finds a way to make a smaller CPU package fit on a larger CPU socket.
Click to expand...

Considering the haswell CPU pictured looks nothing like the Haswell processors we are using on our desktops, I'm not sure if that really proves anything one way or another. Broadwell die being a lot smaller is a pretty meaningless metric.
 
B!nd. said:
Isn't Skylake suppose to support DDR4? It wouldn't make much sense to make two new chipsets.
Click to expand...

Why do people keep bringing up DDR4? It's not going to upgrade anything 99% of what people do. A new cpu, chipset that is faster in real world scenarios is what people should be more concerned with.
 
hdgamer said:
Why do people keep bringing up DDR4? It's not going to upgrade anything 99% of what people do. A new cpu, chipset that is faster in real world scenarios is what people should be more concerned with.
Click to expand...

Did you read and understood the context of how he used DDR4?
 
hdgamer said:
Why do people keep bringing up DDR4?
Click to expand...
The poster who did was asking a question.

Isn't Skylake suppose to support DDR4? It wouldn't make much sense to make two new chipsets.
Click to expand...
The memory controller is on the CPU, and the chipsets used by Intel and AMD at this point are what used to be called south bridges, with more functionality now (higher bandwidth connection to CPU, more PCIe lanes, newer USB version support, etc).

I imagine that the role Broadwell will fill after Skylake is released will be to have a lower cost, higher volume platform for DDR3 based systems during the memory transition. As DDR4 prices drop, the Haswell refresh/Broadwell platform can fade away.
 
http://www.fudzilla.com/home/item/33453-broadwell-for-desktop-comes-in-u-28w-form

The highest end Core i7 Haswell based to be replaced by Broadwell is the Core i7 4558U, a 2.8GHz clocked dual-core with 4MB cache that works up to 3.3GHz with Turbo. This processor has support for four threads and a maximum TDP of 28W. With Broadwell version the performance should rise and TDP might actually go down.


At some point in the second half of 2014 Broadwell comes to the 15W segment to replace 1.7GHz clocked dual core Core i7 4650U that has 4MB of cache and a max turbo frequency of 3.3Ghz. Even at 22nm Haswell core this CPU is maxing out at 15W and with Broadwell replacement things might get even better.
Click to expand...
 
At the least nobody should expect to see Broadwell chips for a normal [H] desktop system.
 
Expected, but still very sad. The desktop and enthusiast market is so abysmal that they are no longer bothering to give these segments the newest architecture. Perhaps this was a needed shift in the tick-tock way of things because the current model is just about dead with Haswell. Intel keeps adding more and more things inside the CPU and the heat is getting out of hand. At 14nm the heat generated from a 4770K-like chip would not be healthy.


This news really makes me think where I should go next in terms of upgrading past my 2600K. The Haswell refresh is likely just a renaming and a possible bump of 100-200Mhz.


AMD, we are waiting...
 
///M3 said:
Expected, but still very sad. The desktop and enthusiast market is so abysmal that they are no longer bothering to give these segments the newest architecture. Perhaps this was a needed shift in the tick-tock way of things because the current model is just about dead with Haswell. Intel keeps adding more and more things inside the CPU and the heat is getting out of hand. At 14nm the heat generated from a 4770K-like chip would not be healthy.


This news really makes me think where I should go next in terms of upgrading past my 2600K. The Haswell refresh is likely just a renaming and a possible bump of 100-200Mhz.


AMD, we are waiting...
Click to expand...

Intel beat AMD into submission long ago I'm afraid.
 
rflcptr said:
lol, taken with a shaker of salt. :p
Click to expand...
I tossed a tanker of salt over my shoulder from that link.

What's funny about Fuad, besides how he convinces himself he knows what he's talking about, is that he doesn't even pretend to have sources for his posts. Sure, dozens of sites will post a link to VR-Zone or other rumor sources, but not Fuad. Or just ignoring the number of leaks showing that there is a Broadwell-LGA coming for the Haswell-Refresh platform, in favor of the OH NOES ONLY BGAS FOAR BOARDWELL. His purity is unblemished.
 
pxc said:
I tossed a tanker of salt over my shoulder from that link.

What's funny about Fuad, besides how he convinces himself he knows what he's talking about, is that he doesn't even pretend to have sources for his posts. Sure, dozens of sites will post a link to VR-Zone or other rumor sources, but not Fuad. Or just ignoring the number of leaks showing that there is a Broadwell-LGA coming for the Haswell-Refresh platform, in favor of the OH NOES ONLY BGAS FOAR BOARDWELL. His purity is unblemished.
Click to expand...


There is something I deeply respect about people who can convince others to believe in something without having a shred of evidence, in fact proof is insulting.

We all remember and love the Iraqi Information Minister. Man was brilliant at this art form. :D
 
Well he posts everything so just by law of numbers some predictions will turn out true which adds to his credibility among less informed people ;)
 
Looking back, IB worked in some SB boards and Westmere worked with some Nehalem boards, why wouldn't BW work with some HW boards?

If Broadwell is going to be an 1150 socket, it has to be backwards compatible. Could you imagine the mess if it wasn't? Intel leaked roadmaps show socket 1150. So it's a matter of UEFI microcode updates which are included with firmware/bios upgrades.
 
pxc said:
I tossed a tanker of salt over my shoulder from that link.

What's funny about Fuad, besides how he convinces himself he knows what he's talking about, is that he doesn't even pretend to have sources for his posts. Sure, dozens of sites will post a link to VR-Zone or other rumor sources, but not Fuad. Or just ignoring the number of leaks showing that there is a Broadwell-LGA coming for the Haswell-Refresh platform, in favor of the OH NOES ONLY BGAS FOAR BOARDWELL. His purity is unblemished.
Click to expand...
interestingly, he also takes opportunities to inject things into his articles that chip away at his objectivity, credibility, and professionalism:
We are quite sure that Apple might be very interested in 28W and 15W Broadwell processors for its overpriced iMac series coming in the second part of 2014.
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We can only guess that new boards based on Z97 will definitely be prettier than the ones with Z87, you somehow have to sell a new product that very similar to the old one.
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It won't be there in thme for Xmas, but it will get to you close enough, as long as you order your beloved Mac Pro today.
Click to expand...
However, the bucket shaped Mac Pro is probably the most innovative and the most original desktop PC to emerge in years and many will be happy to own it, especially universities, as they like to blow their budget, along with many small and medium businesses in creative industries.
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You don’t need much for 4K streaming, 5Mbit will do
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:confused:
 
outers said:
I wish AMD could come up with something to challenge intel
Click to expand...

"But...But FX 8 cores are more future proof!" :rolleyes: "AMD has the consoles! They use 8 cores " (they don't seem to realize it's two Jaguar APU')" Those arguments weren't enough. It was a no brainer going with Intel for my new build.

It sucks that there's not enough competition, but what can you do?
 
From a purely gaming standpoint, how long will Haswell hold up anyway?
I was starting to think the i7 920 was getting obsolete but after doing some Googling the other day it seems to be doing just fine in basically everything and that thing is 5 years old.

The consoles have pretty weak CPU's, true, but it's still a new generation and the future isn't always predictable. I hope I can sit pretty on a 4670k for 5+ years and still manage to effortlessly run games.

My old Q6600 was a huge disappointment, especially since I bought it 1 year before the 920 and kept it for the last 6 years, being a bottleneck in basically everything.

Intel has done so much ridiculous stuff with sockets in recent years and it seems like it will become more complex by the end of 2014, something about "Haswell-E" using a revamped LGA 2011 socket alongside Broadwell which now seems like it might use a new socket.
Is Intel really introducing new sockets for ONE generation of processors?

I can't even keep up anymore... Leaked information, road maps, rumors, all pointing in different directions. I'm just going to hold onto my butt for a few years and hope I don't have to start playing CPU + Mobo tetris anytime soon.
 
Ivy Bridge and Haswell will be obsolete when the time comes by where the equivalent Sandy Bridge processor starts to lose steam. Those little 5% bumps in CPU performance are going to come back and bite people in the ass who sit here and say, "CPU's are so powerful now we have no need to keep up with a 10-15 or even 20% boost generation to generation." Suddenly you take 3 generations and wipe them out at once when the time comes where Sandy Bridge holds people back. This depends on how fast games can take advantage of whats already out though. The Extreme versions might last longer because of the added cores and threads.

Consoles aren't helping at all in pushing CPU performance and having an iGPU that isn't going to help anyone except the low-end and mobile markets where AMD/Intel seem to care most about these past few years. The only thing we have going for us is how well can they maximize the extra threads. Both consoles actually lock 25-50% of the cores down for other tasks though, so this may or may not help drive CPU performance at all. Time will tell, but it isn't looking good. Right now it seems we are forced to watch AMD and Intel do their little dance of seeing how this iGPU thing pans out. If every programmer and there mother doesn't jump onto the merging of GPU and CPU then I don't know how I'd feel because like the Cloud, few are feeling the hype.
 
TaintedSquirrel said:
The consoles have pretty weak CPU's, true, but it's still a new generation and the future isn't always predictable. I hope I can sit pretty on a 4670k for 5+ years and still manage to effortlessly run games.
.
Click to expand...

Well, I'd wager that a 4670k is a better processor than the two APU' the consoles feature; even though it's only 4 threads. The 4670k already beats/matches an 8350 in most games; even multi-threaded ones. Even if game developers made games that featured multi-core support en-masse; I still wager the 4670k would still be a top CPU.
 
outers said:
I wish AMD could come up with something to challenge intel
Click to expand...

RamonGTP said:
Intel beat AMD into submission long ago I'm afraid.
Click to expand...


Yeah, feels like AMD has given up on the thought of beating Intel.. but competition is what Intel really needs to bring out new innovations or else were left with slight increases and nothing major with newer chips..
 
But is it really that bad ?
That way my 3 year old Sandy Bridge is still worthwille machine when previously i'd have to buy something new to replace it already.
 
Air overclocked Sandybridge is almost as good as you will get for single GPU, there is rarely a need for more
Running dual/triple gfx cards will benefit from more extreme cooling and overclocks with some games.
But it also depends on your target framerate.
If you are happy with 60fps there is no need for more extreme cooling for practically all current games.
120fps is another story, you really want higher end everything.
 
Yeah I've been wanting to upgrade my 920, and the Sandys are awesome performance for the price their going for now a days.. but cant resist the urge for having the latest..
 
Michaelius said:
But is it really that bad ?
That way my 3 year old Sandy Bridge is still worthwille machine when previously i'd have to buy something new to replace it already.
Click to expand...



That really depends on how you use the system and how much performance lost compared to what's available at the time you're willing to accept. I haven't had a CPU that hasn't lasted me 4-5 years without being moderately happy. Going multi-core was the only time this really got interrupted. Of course buying the higher-end parts generation after generation has always had that going for it.
 
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