Microsoft Surface 2 Live Blog

heatlesssun said:
Yet in not being like Apple by creating a hybrid OS many say that Microsoft is hemorrhaging as well.
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Apple doesn't need a hybrid OS; they have a strong software ecosystem on each platform. Microsoft arguably needs one, but they aren't leveraging it nearly as well as they could be.
 
CEpeep said:
Apple doesn't need a hybrid OS; they have a strong software ecosystem on each platform. Microsoft arguably needs one, but they aren't leveraging it nearly as well as they could be.
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Another way to look at it though is that Apple didn't have enough of a desktop ecosystem that it mattered to have it on tablets. However one views Windows 8, for Microsoft to simply toss the enormous investments that it and so many have made in the Windows desktop and to not have a path for all of that in the fast growing market of tablets with desktops in decline doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
defaultluser said:
I don't recall ever insulting the Surface Pro.

It's a competitive convertible with a good feature set. I simply observed that MS will have difficulty gaining market share against entrenched OEMs that can copy their every move, possibly at a lower price.

This is the very reason Apple ditched the idea of licensing their OS after one massive failure. When everyone can make a Windows convertible, people may quickly forget Surface.
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The Clones were by no means a "failure". They sold like hotcakes as they were better machines for the same or less money than what Apple was offering at the time. Steve killed the clones when he came back because it was cannibalizing Apple Mac sales. It also wasn't just "one massive failure" as there were previous clone licenses prior to 1995.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_clone
 
heatlesssun said:
And again, there are plenty of OEMs building x86 tablets and hybrids well under $1000. I don't think it is in Microsoft's or customers best interests for Microsoft to take away all of the Windows tablet market. We'll see what the OEMs come up with when these devices get out into the market but there seem to be a lot of well priced Bay Trail devices coming that should perform very well, and with Intel now going full throttle with their x86 designs these things should get even a little cheaper and better pretty quickly.
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ok. I guess the $269 Acer atom tablet fits the bill. Every other atom tablet is a rip off.
 
after setting up 2 RT's for clients I had to get one for my self and after 2 months it has replaced my note book 100% its everything I ever wanted out of a tablet.

with RT yes I know I can't install lots of old stuff that I never want to use and I know I will have to pay 99c for a copy of adobe photoshop.... but hell I'm happy with that! gaming on it is fun and all I need is 2 or 3 good games not thousands of crap games.. I get real office for free and its just nice to use at home and on the road at trade shows. I can plug in an SLR get my photos resize then in no time and manage my blog or Facebook or Google + just like I can on my laptop.

I liked my iPad for 3 years then I found the RT and it changed the way I work and play for the better. everyone I show the RT to that has a tablet are amazed at what it can do and hoe better it is at almost everything. only lacking part is it has no GPS and maps.
 
also forgot to say I love that anything I get on the windows store for my RT is also available on my windows 8 desktop at no extra charge.
 
timta2 said:
The Clones were by no means a "failure". They sold like hotcakes as they were better machines for the same or less money than what Apple was offering at the time. Steve killed the clones when he came back because it was cannibalizing Apple Mac sales. It also wasn't just "one massive failure" as there were previous clone licenses prior to 1995.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Macintosh_clone
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I'll grant that it was not "one" massive failure, but thee fact is it was costing Apple money with each sale without really increasing their market-share. It also damaged their reputation as a high-quality brand due to some OEMs cutting quality in favor of price.

Steve ended that mistake and did more to help Apple with the crappy-yet-cute iMac. Through clever marketing they managed to completely erase the damage done by the clones.

Microsoft has a much tougher situation here because they suck at clever marketing, and unlike any other markets they've attempted to invade they have no intention of losing money on their devices for a decade. And since the Surface II is yet another among many that is locked-down to a single platform, it WILL be judged on price, media offerings, and then perhaps nifty features like a kickstand and touch cover. When you tell buyers that the Surface II costs $450 and the Amazon Kindle 9" costs $270 and the Nexus 10 is only $350, you have to wonder why they'll still have any interest in Surface II. Even Apple offers an option for the price-conscious buyer.

They also have no intention of losing the sales of their OS to the low-end market, so they will NOT pull the trigger like Apple did. This means their reputation will forever be beholden to the quality of their OEM partners, since that is the source of most sales, and hardly anyone in that price range knows what an "Operating System" is, let-alone realize they might want to pay more for a Microsoft-built product. These Surface tablets are just the equivalent to "preaching to the choir," and although they are nice for the small contingent of users for whom these satisfy a need, I do not see them making a grand change to how cheap OEMs will continue to do their business, since MS is not even offering devices in the same price bracket. This means the general opinion of Windows in the marketplace will remain unchanged.
 
Personally, I think that it would've been better for Microsoft to market the Pro to the business, prosumer and student niche groups. The general audience simply cannot fathom paying a thousand dollars for something that looks like a tablet but is really an ultrabook.

Even here on [H], the number of people that needs Wacom penabled on the go is not that many. Only some of us would pay the Wacom tax to use OneNote, Photoshop and other applications while using the touchscreen 'apps' every now and then. I am now thinking very hard about getting one, since I need a touchscreen ultrabook with digitizer for what I do on business trips.

ARM Surface on the other hand... I don't really think that it's viable for Microsoft. Bay Trail Surface would be more promising.
 
A new copy of the video is being uploaded to replace the one with a Start Menu.
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Since when did it become reasonable to engage in damage control over the depiction of a feature consumers seem to find favorable?

That's a piece of oddness.
 
What this is? 8 with a Start Menu replacement? So kind of photoshop? That Start Button style was never in 8 or 8.1. And while the Start Menu might be beloved by keyboard and mouse users it certainly isn't ideal on a tablet like in this image.
 
heatlesssun said:
And while the Start Menu might be beloved by keyboard and mouse users it certainly isn't ideal on a tablet like in this image.
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I use the ClassicShell start menu on my tablet just fine. It makes a nice quick-launcher for frequently used apps that have been pinned to the start menu, and that's all most people really need on a tablet. It's much faster and smoother than jumping out of the desktop to Metro, and if I do need to go to Metro to find a less-frequently used app I have a shortcut pinned to the start menu for it, too.

You really need to give up on this 'the start menu is old and sucks' bullshit.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
I use the ClassicShell start menu on my tablet just fine. It makes a nice quick-launcher for frequently used apps that have been pinned to the start menu, and that's all most people really need on a tablet. It's much faster and smoother than jumping out of the desktop to Metro, and if I do need to go to Metro to find a less-frequently used app I have a shortcut pinned to the start menu for it, too.

You really need to give up on this 'the start menu is old and sucks' bullshit.
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The Start Menu can work with touch but it's not at all ideal. particularly as the screen gets smaller. The fastest way to launch a desktop app in 7 or 8 desktop or tablet is from the task bar and that does work well on a tablet.

Yes, the Start Menu is old, Windows desktop apps are old. Yes this stuff CAN work on tablets with touch, some desktop apps are actually pretty good with touch like OneNote. But the vast majority simply don't work well across the board as desktop apps and the Start Menu were only designed to work with keyboards and mice.

I do understand why many don't like the Modern UI on keyboard and mouse driven devices, it is essential however on tablets. The Windows desktop has been on touch tablets for many years and the #1 criticism of it was that the desktop UI simply doesn't work well with touch. It's not as bad as some made it out to be, particularly with 7, but still not a smooth experience even if one is used to it.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
I use the ClassicShell start menu on my tablet just fine. It makes a nice quick-launcher for frequently used apps that have been pinned to the start menu, and that's all most people really need on a tablet.
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Just out of curiosity, how many apps do you have pinned to the taskbar currently?
 
I love my surface pro, great machine for my usage: work related apps in cloud software, excel, PPT especially on the go.
 
Take a look at all of the negative headlines that tech sites are spinning about the Surface Pro 2 already. This release has truly revealed how trashy and pathetic tech "journalists" are.
 
HD4400? Really, Microsoft? This would have been a pre-order for sure if they'd gone with the HD5000. If Apple can put the HD5000 in the Macbook Air, why can't MS put it in their tablet?
 
CEpeep said:
HD4400? Really, Microsoft? This would have been a pre-order for sure if they'd gone with the HD5000. If Apple can put the HD5000 in the Macbook Air, why can't MS put it in their tablet?
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It really has nothing to do with Apple or Microsoft, it's just the IPG in the Haswell chip that each uses. The Surface is probably a good bit more power hungry with the 1080P touch screen and pen digitizer than the MBA and battery life as a much bigger issue than performance for the Surface Pro 1. And thermals are more critical in the Surface Pro than the MBA, it has to run cooler since it's a tablet.
 
DeathFromBelow said:
Only the web browser. I prefer not to clutter the taskbar with icons, launching apps pinned to the start menu is essentially just as fast.
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If an application is going to be running often there's no reason not to pin it. The difference it speed between the task bar and Start Menu isn't a big deal. It's just that Windows 8 has started all of these pretty silly click count debates that at the end of the day are mostly pointless. But one click is faster than two.
 
heatlesssun said:
It really has nothing to do with Apple or Microsoft, it's just the IPG in the Haswell chip that each uses. The Surface is probably a good bit more power hungry with the 1080P touch screen and pen digitizer than the MBA and battery life as a much bigger issue than performance for the Surface Pro 1. And thermals are more critical in the Surface Pro than the MBA, it has to run cooler since it's a tablet.
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The HD4400 and the HD5000 version of the ULV Core i5 have the same TDP.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haswell_(microarchitecture)#Mobile_processors
 
heatlesssun said:
The same max TDP but the overall power draw of the 4250U is probably a bit higher.
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Probably slightly, but the boost between the HD4400 and the HD5000 is significant, more than enough to offset a minor increase in power draw, unless Microsoft is stringing the hardware out to the very edge of its limits, which shouldn't be the case with a rev 2 device.
 
Power draw during utilization certain to be higher, but that says nothing of race-to-idle. In some cases, it's more important to use more power over a shorter period of time and reach an idle state more quickly. This can be particularly true in the case of rendering with vertical sync/frame limiting.
 
But heat and noise are also a factor and that's more critical in a tablet than a laptop. At any rate it will be interesting to see performance benchmarks .
 
A lot of you are completely missing the point of the Surface.

What the Surface provides is the complete experience. With the Pro you get the tablet, laptop, and desktop experience in ONE form factor. You cannot currently get another setup like this. Currently the Pro is the highest seller in it's market. Nobody right now can compete with the Pro right now.

Can you name a tablet that has full printer support, dual monitor setup with the support of ultra res 2560x1920? Run 3 apps at the same time? Seemless cloud backup with encryption? Flash support?

The list can go on. I can do pretty much anything on my Surface.

The biggest obstacle was all the bad reviews. Majority of the reviewers didn't even give it a full week or two of usage.
 
heatlesssun said:
But heat and noise are also a factor and that's more critical in a tablet than a laptop. At any rate it will be interesting to see performance benchmarks .
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Great thing about the pro, they optimized it so you get maximum battery life without having to clock down the speeds of the Surface. Pro 2 boosts 75% more battery life, and if you get the touchpad with extended battery it adds another 25%.

Only thing I'm a bit skeptical is their claim of being 95% faster than majority of laptops produced right now. Well at least in the tablet/ultrabook arena I can sorta see that.
 
They really should've just killed RT and had latest Intel Atom in the lower end Surface since its superior to the ARM chip.
 
Megalith said:
Take a look at all of the negative headlines that tech sites are spinning about the Surface Pro 2 already. This release has truly revealed how trashy and pathetic tech "journalists" are.
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So you think its a conspiracy? Or that if everyone's saying the same thing maybe there's something to it?
 
wiseoracle said:
The biggest obstacle was all the bad reviews. Majority of the reviewers didn't even give it a full week or two of usage.
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Overall the Surface Pro is probably the best x86 tablet/hybrid ever made. There are devices that can compete with its processing power but the design and build quality are a notch above the other devices currently though Sony has something coming out that has the kickstand deisgn.

I don't think the Pro got a lot of bad press but the price and the battery life were always an issue. The battery life definitely was a problem but to realistically expect some of the prices that people were throwing out like $500 for the base version were certainly not realistic.

The Surface Pros are essentially another iteration of the x86 Windows tablets, which though niche have been around a long time and have a lot pretty loyal buyers because mobile OS tablets don't replace the productive capabilities of something like a Surface Pro like Photoshop or OneNote. The problem with a lot reviewers and tech journalists is that they don't use these devices and don't have need for them and thus have no idea what they can do or why some would use them and that the price tag isn't that big of deal if you need the capabilities. A student spending $40k a year to go to school , what's $1200 bucks for a device that could carry him or her through school?
 
DPI said:
So you think its a conspiracy? Or that if everyone's saying the same thing maybe there's something to it?
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Id say it absolutely IS bias. Frankly The downsides to the Surface that any reviewers ever list, are idiotic non-functional things. I have an Asus EEE Slate running windows 7, that got very mediocre to poor reviews, but what they didnt relate in these reviews is the fact that i can do things all in one device that are absolutely impossible in others.

Its similiar to the PS4, XBox One debates, Sony puts out a number and everyone swears by it, if MS puts out a similar number the drill it into the ground despite having absolutely no legitimate sources for either one
 
This looks pretty sweet. My buddy has a Surface Pro and he loves it. Surface Pro with Haswell is just what the doctor ordered. :)
 
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