Asus VN247H ghosting?

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Dawgus

n00b
Joined
Aug 14, 2013
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Before this monitor, I though ghosting was a thing of the past.

mnvqlqjxun.jpg


The monitor looks good. The bezel is very thin. 1ms seemed very nice. The problem is: this monitor seems to ghost a lot. I can see this when I move my mouse around on any background (except black for some reason, but maybe that's just my eyes).

In photoshop, it was ghosting so bad than when I moved my cursor in a circle, it actually formed a full second cursor. It's that bad.

The weird part is that I've been looking at many customer reviews and people seem to be saying this monitor is in fact very good at blur/ghosting and is made for fast refresh. Why do I have these problems then? I notice it in movies and games too -> a lot of double images when you move left/right.

I've only found one person with the same problem on a different site: http://forums.overclockers.co.uk/showpost.php?p=23562134&postcount=6

I've had similar problems with other monitor so I'd say I notice stuff like this more, but how come some people have zero problems with the same monitor as me? I'd be surprised if I have a bad model since it works perfect except for the ghosting.

Tried turning trace free from 0-100 too and 0,20,40,60,80 and 100 all have this ghosting problem and it doesn't change anything either.
 
Dawgus said:
Sorry for late reply, but I've been thinking bout that. Changing from 0-100 doesn't change anything though.
Click to expand...
For adjusting Tracefree, try viewing www.testufo.com/#test=ghosting while adjusting the Tracefree setting.
Generally, adjust Tracefree to around 60, which seems to be the best setting. Ghosting will still be there, but be less prominent. The overdrive and the ghosting will usually be more balanced at TraceFree 60.

If you want a display with zero ghosting and zero blur, you will need a LightBoost 120Hz monitor, and you want a powerful GPU. On these, you have up to 92% less motion blur than 60Hz (see Photos: 60Hz vs 120Hz vs LightBoost as well as see LCD Motion Artifacts 101). If you are sticking to TN, you might as well get the one with the least blur/ghosting. On modern LCD's, pixel response time is no longer the primary cause of most motion blur. The sample-and-hold effect is the main cause -- see www.testufo.com/#test=eyetracking as a demonstration of the chief cause of motion blur on most modern LCD's today. The use of strobing (like CRT) is another way of eliminating this other motion blur weak link.
 
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Mark Rejhon said:
For adjusting Tracefree, try viewing www.testufo.com/#test=ghosting while adjusting the Tracefree setting.
Generally, adjust Tracefree to around 60, which seems to be the best setting. Ghosting will still be there, but be less prominent. The overdrive and the ghosting will usually be more balanced at TraceFree 60.

If you want a display with zero ghosting and zero blur, you will need a LightBoost 120Hz monitor, and you want a powerful GPU. On these, you have up to 92% less motion blur than 60Hz (see Photos: 60Hz vs 120Hz vs LightBoost as well as see LCD Motion Artifacts 101). If you are sticking to TN, you might as well get the one with the least blur/ghosting. On modern LCD's, pixel response time is no longer the primary cause of most motion blur. The sample-and-hold effect is the main cause -- see www.testufo.com/#test=eyetracking as a demonstration of the chief cause of motion blur on most modern LCD's today. The use of strobing (like CRT) is another way of eliminating this other motion blur weak link.
Click to expand...

I understand all of this, but I feel like the Asus VN247H goes beyond the usual sample-and-hold effect. Usually, motion blur is only one side, but here it affects both sides.

Example: with a standard monitor, if I move my mouse icon to the right, the blurring will happen to the left. Right? (the blurring is trying to catch up with your movement) This happens on my laptop etc etc. The right side is almost unaffected.

With the VN247H though, blurring happens at both sides. Almost like the original image is being doubled. Some kind of inversed ghosting, but not dark. Just a lighter version of the original.

It's kinda similar to this picture:
cimg8032.jpg


Also similar to this video, especially when the person is looking at the mountains: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yk2cWMkPlG4 I don't have the black inverse ghosting though.

" If you are sticking to TN, you might as well get the one with the least blur/ghosting." I'd just like to know which one that is... :p I do know I DO NOT want a monitor with any overdrive setting. I'm pretty sure it is the cause of my problems and even on 0/20/40/60 setting I can see it.
 
So, the best thing I could do is buy a monitor with NO overdrive at all, right?

Before this monitor, I had the DELL U2312HM (also overdrive) and it gave me the same issue.

Before that one though, I had a Acer S243HL bmii 24" and I never even noticed the issue on that monitor.
 
Your ghosting situation is a bit confusing.

-- Can you view TestUFO Ghosting at www.testufo.com/#test=ghosting in a recent VSYNC capable browser (e.g. Chrome)?

-- Can you tell me which of the images at LCD Motion Artifacts 101 your problem looks most similar to, when viewing the TestUFO Ghosting test?

-- Also can you temporarily raise your brightness to 100% and see if the image-doubling/tripling disappears? You might be seeing PWM motion artifacts.
 
Dawgus said:
Question: will this also happen on a 120hz screen like the Asus VG248QE?
Click to expand...
There's darn near zero motion blur, zero ghosting, and zero overdrive, when using a VG248QE with LightBoost. Colors are worse, though, but some people like me, really like the complete elimination of motion blur.

However, in non-LightBoost mode (where the colors are better), the VG248QE uses PWM dimming. Bear this under consideration.

Since you are playing FPS games and you are complaining about ghosting, you may actually be happier with high rated 120Hz monitor. There's a good list of 120Hz gaming monitors. Even the 120Hz IPS overclocks can produce more pleasing motion, although not nearly as clear and blur-free / ghost-free motion as a LightBoost monitor. Do bear in mind, the VG248QE, being the cheapest model (while it's got amazing "motion resolution"), also happens to be one of the 120Hz monitors with poorer color quality, and a lot of the other 120Hz monitors such as XL2720T and VG278H are able to achieve better color during LightBoost mode.
 
Mark Rejhon said:
Your ghosting situation is a bit confusing.

-- Can you view TestUFO Ghosting at www.testufo.com/#test=ghosting in a recent VSYNC capable browser (e.g. Chrome)?

-- Can you tell me which of the images at LCD Motion Artifacts 101 your problem looks most similar to, when viewing the TestUFO Ghosting test?

-- Also can you temporarily raise your brightness to 100% and see if the image-doubling/tripling disappears? You might be seeing PWM motion artifacts.
Click to expand...

Definitely ghosting, but every LCD has ghosting, right? On most of my devices (phones, tablets and laptops), the ghosting happens left/right near the edge of the moving object. This, of course, depends on the direction the object is going. (If it goes left, the ghosting is on the rightern trail etc)

The weird part however, is that on my VN247H the ghosting is not on the edges. It seems to start in the middle of an object.

So when I move my white mouse cursor around my screen, it looks more like the ghosting gets activated in the middle of it. As if the mouse is doubling/tripling.

Now, the weird part is that this is really irritating me. I do not understand why. It's a flaw of LCD, but almost everyone in the world uses these type of screens. It's like my eyes are super focused on these ghosting and blurry flaws, so much that I hardly play games because of it :p

I really wish this flaw did not exist. I cannot understand how so many people don't even see it. Friends of mine don't even know what I'm talking about when I tell them you can see a clear trail when you move your mouse icon on most screens. Maybe I have an eye problem? Something that exaggerates the problem?
 
your monitor probably have PWM at 185Hz and it is making images to triple in somewhat pretty jittery way (it would exactly triple them at 180Hz). Try looking at screen with some digital camera (eg. from smartphone) and adjusting brightness at 100% to see what happen

besides, if you take gaming seriously then you should buy Light Boost monitor. Gaming at 60Hz sucks even without motion blur (it is possible on CRTs) because of input lag. Add LCD own input lag, motion blur, sample&hold and PWM issues to that and you get very bad gaming experience... Friend of mine have BenQ XL2411T and motion wise it's great, first LCD monitor that I can say is suitable to gaming. Both 120Hz+LB mode and 144Hz mode are very good to gaming. Even if game runs below 60fpt it feels much better on 144Hz than 60Hz because motion is better and input lag is much less

So I strongly consider monitor like that instead of 60Hz one
 
XoR said:
your monitor probably have PWM at 185Hz and it is making images to triple in somewhat pretty jittery way (it would exactly triple them at 180Hz). Try looking at screen with some digital camera (eg. from smartphone) and adjusting brightness at 100% to see what happen

besides, if you take gaming seriously then you should buy Light Boost monitor. Gaming at 60Hz sucks even without motion blur (it is possible on CRTs) because of input lag. Add LCD own input lag, motion blur, sample&hold and PWM issues to that and you get very bad gaming experience... Friend of mine have BenQ XL2411T and motion wise it's great, first LCD monitor that I can say is suitable to gaming. Both 120Hz+LB mode and 144Hz mode are very good to gaming. Even if game runs below 60fpt it feels much better on 144Hz than 60Hz because motion is better and input lag is much less

So I strongly consider monitor like that instead of 60Hz one
Click to expand...

Well, I have the money for one. Just not sure which to pick (got around €300)

Keep in mind I only have a GTX 670 FTW, so my GPU isn't super high end anymore.
 
Mark Rejhon said:
There's darn near zero motion blur, zero ghosting, and zero overdrive, when using a VG248QE with LightBoost. Colors are worse, though, but some people like me, really like the complete elimination of motion blur.

However, in non-LightBoost mode (where the colors are better), the VG248QE uses PWM dimming. Bear this under consideration.

Since you are playing FPS games and you are complaining about ghosting, you may actually be happier with high rated 120Hz monitor. There's a good list of 120Hz gaming monitors. Even the 120Hz IPS overclocks can produce more pleasing motion, although not nearly as clear and blur-free / ghost-free motion as a LightBoost monitor. Do bear in mind, the VG248QE, being the cheapest model (while it's got amazing "motion resolution"), also happens to be one of the 120Hz monitors with poorer color quality, and a lot of the other 120Hz monitors such as XL2720T and VG278H are able to achieve better color during LightBoost mode.
Click to expand...

The BenQ XL2411T is cheaper here. Does it NOT have PWM dimming on 60Hz? I was looking at PWM artifacts on your blog and it certainly looks like the problem my current Asus VN247H suffers from. I don't even have to drag my cursor that fast to see it.

Question: does the BenQ have any downsides? And how much power would I need for lightboost?

My setup:

I5-3570K (stock speed)
8GB RAM
GTX 670 FTW

On desktop usage, it doesn't matter I take it? You will always see the full effect of 120hz? I think my rig might be too weak for lightboost in games though.

I'd also like to note that ghosting/dimming is my main problem. Motion blur is also important, but it's less noticeable than ghosting etc for me.
 
camera test showed no PWM but I don't know if that was less than 100% brightness

LightBoost or not...at 120Hz and especially 144Hz you avoid v-sync/tearing hell

at 60Hz monitor either you live with tearing that is visible for 16.6ms and easily noticeable or go into even worse case scenario: v-sync that will add a lot of input lag and/or make image very 'jumpy' (remember, you can display image at 16.6ms intervals with v-sync)

at 144Hz both tearing and input lag from v-sync is not noticeable and basically difference between these two blurs. I did a test while ago. Quake 3 at 120Hz mode with v-sync with 60fps cap (set in game) feels just like on 60Hz without v-sync but 120Hz mode looks much better becuse there is no tering. 120Hz 60fps without v-sync feels pretty much the same, difference is too stuble to be easily noticeable. Same with tearing, it is visible but I have to basically look for it to see it.
But what happens at 60Hz with v-sync? There is great amount of input lag making game unplayable. 60Hz and cap of 58fps is making game playable again but very 'jumpy' so motion fluidity was lost. Framerate cap at 30fps at 120Hz mode with v-sync have less input lag than 60fps at 60Hz monitor with v-sync. Also 58fps at 60Hz monitor feels incredibly jumpy while 58fps at 120Hz feels quite normal

so LightBoost in such monitor is just a bonus and main benefit is input lag/tearing/jumpiness issues going away
If your rig will have issues feeding at least 100fps constant in some games then you will have to decide if you like 100/120Hz LB more than 144Hz but that is just small issue, don't you think? :)
 
Almost all 1920x1080 can do 75Hz. At least I haven't had a single 1080p monitor that can't do it (no frame skipping).
 
XoR said:
camera test showed no PWM but I don't know if that was less than 100% brightness

LightBoost or not...at 120Hz and especially 144Hz you avoid v-sync/tearing hell

at 60Hz monitor either you live with tearing that is visible for 16.6ms and easily noticeable or go into even worse case scenario: v-sync that will add a lot of input lag and/or make image very 'jumpy' (remember, you can display image at 16.6ms intervals with v-sync)

at 144Hz both tearing and input lag from v-sync is not noticeable and basically difference between these two blurs. I did a test while ago. Quake 3 at 120Hz mode with v-sync with 60fps cap (set in game) feels just like on 60Hz without v-sync but 120Hz mode looks much better becuse there is no tering. 120Hz 60fps without v-sync feels pretty much the same, difference is too stuble to be easily noticeable. Same with tearing, it is visible but I have to basically look for it to see it.
But what happens at 60Hz with v-sync? There is great amount of input lag making game unplayable. 60Hz and cap of 58fps is making game playable again but very 'jumpy' so motion fluidity was lost. Framerate cap at 30fps at 120Hz mode with v-sync have less input lag than 60fps at 60Hz monitor with v-sync. Also 58fps at 60Hz monitor feels incredibly jumpy while 58fps at 120Hz feels quite normal

so LightBoost in such monitor is just a bonus and main benefit is input lag/tearing/jumpiness issues going away
If your rig will have issues feeding at least 100fps constant in some games then you will have to decide if you like 100/120Hz LB more than 144Hz but that is just small issue, don't you think? :)
Click to expand...

So, if I understand it:

I should use 144Hz on desktop usage (almost every card can run it at that setting with a decent graphics card?)

And then 120hz on games? It doesn't matter if I can't run it at 120fps right? I should notice an improvement at 70fps etc, I take it?
 
Dawgus said:
Check this video (XL2411T response set). Is this normal? Clearly, there is still a shaky trail with white on black. For some reason, I expected this to be gone on these screens.
Click to expand...
XL2411T is not PWM-free, so you will still have the PWM trailing artifact at less than 100% brightness. If you wanted a monitor that is free of PWM artifacts, you should get the XL2420TE. The one with the "E" suffix. It's the only PWM-free official 120Hz computer monitor on the market.

However, there's an alternate solution. Try enabling LightBoost using ToastyX Strobelight on your XL2411T. It eliminates the PWM motion artifacts by using only one strobe per refresh. This should make motion much cleaner.

Also, best performance does occur when you can run at framerates matching Hz (120fps @ 120Hz) for the cleanest motion. You can also test for motion using www.testufo.com including "Chase Squares" and "Ghosting Test", too.
 
Mark Rejhon said:
XL2411T is not PWM-free, so you will still have the PWM trailing artifact at less than 100% brightness. If you wanted a monitor that is free of PWM artifacts, you should get the XL2420TE. The one with the "E" suffix. It's the only PWM-free official 120Hz computer monitor on the market.

However, there's an alternate solution. Try enabling LightBoost using ToastyX Strobelight on your XL2411T. It eliminates the PWM motion artifacts by using only one strobe per refresh. This should make motion much cleaner.

Also, best performance does occur when you can run at framerates matching Hz (120fps @ 120Hz) for the cleanest motion. You can also test for motion using www.testufo.com including "Chase Squares" and "Ghosting Test", too.
Click to expand...

I see. At 100% brightness, does it disappear though? I'm currenlty using a cheap laptop and even on 100% brightness, you can see the trail on the test(s) you linked. Of course, this is a cheap laptop with an even cheaper screen.

Are there any PWM-free 60hz (TN) screens? Don't want to buy another one, but I'm just interested in seeing the effect gone with my own eyes :p
 
About to order XL2411T so one final question:

I assume you should enable 120hz (or is it 144?) always? Even if you only get 61fps? And v-syc is not required anymore, right?
 
Dawgus said:
About to order XL2411T so one final question:

I assume you should enable 120hz (or is it 144?) always? Even if you only get 61fps? And v-syc is not required anymore, right?
Click to expand...
you should never use 60Hz
I would delete this mode (1920x1080@60Hz) completely with ToastyX Custom Resolution Utility to avoid issues with 'stupid' games
 
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