Surface Pro Anticipation

heatlesssun said:
I have an x220t convertible tablet and it's a nice device but it simply isn't the same as using a pure tablet, as you said, too big and bulky. My favorite form factor is the folding clamshell hybrid. You pretty much get all of the benefits of both an ultrabook/laptop and a tablet.

The battery life and weight of Clover Trail devices are what makes them interesting. Engadget gave the Tablet 2 a pretty nice review, I don't like the keyboard implementation though, wish it were like the Helix. I really love my Samsung 500T, just a great device for note taking with OneNote, fast enough for that purpose and lots of battery. You're not going to be doing a lot of desktop gaming or Photoshop with the Tablet 2 however,
Click to expand...

Well that is the point. I tried to use the Pro as an ultrabook and it does not work. Almost everything I need the ultrabook computing power for, all those cores and Mhz and Ram that I give precious run time for, all those things that make this thing need a fan, whine, warm up , be too thick and heavy to handle with one hand for more than 2-3 minutes, all those things that makes the Microsoft Surface Pro $1100+tax with the keyboard are programs I definitely want a mouse + keyboard + a screen around 15 inches. I tried to play games and the screen is too small. I tried to do lots of matlab and the screen is too small, i tried to edit circuity in pspice and guess what, the screen is too small.
Most of the time I am sitting in my chair like the hunchback of NotreDam trying to align the pen to the perfect spot in order to minimize one window and not close the other. If it is a comfortable distance away from me then I can't read or see anything ( I have 20/10 vision) , if I scale everything or lover the resolution, now I can't fit anything in the screen.

So overall, I ended up giving up battery life and carrying a hefty weight, thick and expensive machine to do things that can be done with an atom ( hopefully). I am going to write in Word, edit excel spread sheets ( sometimes), take notes in one note 2013, read pdf text books, record lectures with the internal microphone and an external camera( hopefully it has enough ummph to run an external camera, mic and one note at the same time) and watch a youtube video here and there.

Lets talk about Helix
Helix would be awesome, Helix is actually exactly what I need. The screen is one inch bigger than surface but the tablet itself is lighter and thinner. Keyboard is real and adds battery life, clamshell is an actual laptop yes great, but it has been delayed one time already, when it comes out it is going to be sold out instantly before I decide to buy it and i think $1499 is a lot of money. Maybe I'll wait for a sale for the prices to go down on it and then sell my thinkpad tablet and buy the Helix. Maybe i'll just wait till haswell. I am pretty sure I am going to end up with it, the question is when.

Note: Two things that sped up my decision to return the surface pro.
1) The pen does not store in the device and yesterday I had to come back home from school just to grab the pen that I forgot at home, since I wanted to use it for note taking.
2) After exactly one day of note taking, the upper left corner of the back of the device was already showing wore out paint. I could see the metal under the paint on the casing, half a circle about .3 inches in diameter. I had an iphone 4s that I carry in my pocket with some change and my keys for the last 10 months and I can count the amount of scratches on the device. I have dropped a full thermos ( which was inside my backpack, which was full of textbook as it was falling) on the lid of my sony vaio and the stainless steel thermos was bent inward about an inch, there is not even a scratch on the vaio, let alone damage to the screen. After owning devices at that level, paint wearing off after one day of use made me sick to my stomach basically.
 
Well it sounds like you a very bad experience with the Pro so I certainly understand why you are returning it, especially with the wear and tear you've just described.

As it stands right now there's no way to get an x86 tablet with both solid speed and battery life, hopefully that will change. The Helix does look to be a beast and it looks to be a bit better on the battery life and the bigger screen will help a bit with those having scaling issues. And it's not going to be cheap but I do think on paper it's better than the Surface, we shall see.

As for the ThinkPad Tablet 2, it would probably serve you well as a ink capable note taking device, that works better than I had hoped on Clover Trail devices. There have been reports of a lot of issues with Clover Trail tablets but it does look like things are getting hammered out. I have high hopes for Bay Trail, that's really the first x86 platform that should both the battery life and performance at a good price point.
 
pelo said:
AutoCad WS? I haven't tried it myself yet, but perhaps it'd be suitable for light editing stuff.
Click to expand...

I was looking for something native to the OS. I'll need to play more with the web interface, but seems like I would be better on the SurfaceRT if I'm using a web interface.

heatlesssun said:
Paul Thurrott suggested the idea that the Surface Pro should have had the option of a 1366x768 screen to mitigate this problem. He doesn't think the higher resolution screen makes much difference visually.
Click to expand...

I totally agree the difference between my SurfacePRO and RT and even the Yoga are pretty much lost once I get into productive mode.

heatlesssun said:
When it comes to productivity on a tablet with touch, I must admit I don't really know what exactly anyone is doing on a touch only tablet that's particularly productive. It can be very convenient to do quick things but who wouldn't won't a keyboard and mouse when working on large documents, inputting lots of text, etc. I've only played a bit with Pages and Numbers on the iPad and the last time I did that was around a year ago. Nice presentation and UI but nothing that can't be done almost as easily with Word or Excel 2013 with touch, and there's just so much Office does that has no equivalent anywhere else. When it comes to note taking, OneNote 2013 on Windows 8 especially with a pen, is there anything better overall?
Click to expand...

Combined with the touch cover, I'm getting really good at being productive and dividing my workload between the SurfaceRT and yoga/desktop. one note on the yoga w/ onenote and a $4 pen works fairly well. It lacks precision, but like taking notes with a dull sharpie it isn't pretty but it gets the job done. =D
No the in no equal IMO, but after playing with the pro I would trade $100 and some battery to have the digi/pen on my

heatlesssun said:
Throwing a 1000 apps a day in the store when they aren't ready or just plain junk isn't going to help Windows 8 long term regardless. Yes, the iPad is much more polished with many more apps but I think Windows 8 has some definite advantages in flexibility but it at the cost of more complexity. Overall Metro is very powerful and capable and beyond iOS in many ways but it does need refinement and there need to be many more Metro apps.
Click to expand...

Its a marketing thing, I'll take an easy to browse market with a few quality apps, over the Android market any day. I get that small developers may go to the other platforms first, but whats irritating is large companies/services that haven't put out decent apps yet. It's getting better though.

heatlesssun said:
I'd like to see an iPad do something like this without needing a dedicated app or jailbreak
Click to expand...

LOL I was doing this the other day had subnet calc and one note open to check my work for a subnetting problem.
 
heatlesssun said:
Well it sounds like you a very bad experience with the Pro so I certainly understand why you are returning it, especially with the wear and tear you've just described.

As it stands right now there's no way to get an x86 tablet with both solid speed and battery life, hopefully that will change. The Helix does look to be a beast and it looks to be a bit better on the battery life and the bigger screen will help a bit with those having scaling issues. And it's not going to be cheap but I do think on paper it's better than the Surface, we shall see.

As for the ThinkPad Tablet 2, it would probably serve you well as a ink capable note taking device, that works better than I had hoped on Clover Trail devices. There have been reports of a lot of issues with Clover Trail tablets but it does look like things are getting hammered out. I have high hopes for Bay Trail, that's really the first x86 platform that should both the battery life and performance at a good price point.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I think the sell out was probably good for me. I was tempted to buy it that midnight release, but decided to wait. Then I had new tech-itis and was going to go pick a 128gb up. Luckily none available. Just need to be patient for the Helix or a Haswell rev of the Pro. There is a lot to like about the Pro, but just some compromises I am not willing to make just yet.

Really disappointed to here about the paint chipping on it. Was looking at the Yogas and ultimately decided against due to those types of issues. Hope that is an isolated incident, but I guess we will see as we start seeing more reports from early adopters.
 
no_control said:
Its a marketing thing, I'll take an easy to browse market with a few quality apps, over the Android market any day. I get that small developers may go to the other platforms first, but whats irritating is large companies/services that haven't put out decent apps yet. It's getting better though.
Click to expand...

Right now it looks like Metro apps are getting published at about 200 a day. There's really no way that that many quality apps can be produced on ANY platform day after day. So the whole argument about app counts is really about how fast and how much junk ends up in a store. Microsoft needs to land the "big ones" like official Facebook and Instagram apps. The Facebook app is going to be touch one because of the issues with ad revenue. From my understanding the ad rates are much better through the web site than apps which obviously is a huge disincentive for FB to make a Metro app and taking them away from the web site.

no_control said:
LOL I was doing this the other day had subnet calc and one note open to check my work for a subnetting problem.
Click to expand...

I know that a big criticism of Metro is multitasking but honestly, the snap view with the right and well designed app is pretty sweet. Docking tools like calculators, IM clients, media playback works great with another main focus app in the full view.
 
The problem with that multitasking thing is the "well designed app" portion. There was no such prerequisite in the desktop/legacy environment whereas in mobile it's an afterthought. You'll have more luck winning the lottery than finding an application worth its salt that also works in the sidebar.

I do think we'll see better multitasking in all platforms, iOS, Android and Metro, but only after tablets make the transition from novelty gadgets to truly replacing laptops. Samsung is already doing this with their Note II phones. And to think that maybe one day all that screen real estate can actually be used for something useful :D
 
pelo said:
The problem with that multitasking thing is the "well designed app" portion. There was no such prerequisite in the desktop/legacy environment whereas in mobile it's an afterthought. You'll have more luck winning the lottery than finding an application worth its salt that also works in the sidebar.
Click to expand...

The desktop can't work in snapped view. In Metro, it's not at all an after thought if the app accounts for the snapped view and a lot do. The snapped view doesn't generally make sense in things like games but almost all of the content viewers, media players, tools such as calculators, web search and information reference such as dictionaries that I've tried support snapped view well.
 
Snapped view also heavily limits what's shown on the screen. For example, you can't "snap view" a browser and have it still work as advertised - or even work at all, in fact.

That's why Windows was so good: it had windows. You could resize, move around and dictate how and where you wanted stuff to go. That's something entirely impossible with Metro or any mobile OS. It also happens to be something that's required in order for mobile OSes to truly inherit true multitasking.

"Hey, let me just 'snap view' this text editor," sounds pretty fucking stupid, doesn't it? Or how about, "Let me just put AutoCAD in the side bar so I can multitask."

:D
 
pelo said:
Snapped view also heavily limits what's shown on the screen. For example, you can't "snap view" a browser and have it still work as advertised - or even work at all, in fact.

That's why Windows was so good: it had windows. You could resize, move around and dictate how and where you wanted stuff to go. That's something entirely impossible with Metro or any mobile OS. It also happens to be something that's required in order for mobile OSes to truly inherit true multitasking.

"Hey, let me just 'snap view' this text editor," sounds pretty fucking stupid, doesn't it? Or how about, "Let me just put AutoCAD in the side bar so I can multitask."

:D
Click to expand...

Proper resizing of a web site in a browser or any application for that matter is on the onus of that web site or application. Just because one can resize a window doesn't necessary mean that elements magically resize and scale without the client doing a LOT of work, after all that you've said about the Surface Pro's DPI issues on the desktop you must be well aware of this. Resize most web sites in too small of a window and you end up with nothing but a view that's chopped off and needs constant vertical and horizontal scrolling. And who works in something like AutoCAD at less than full screen, particularly on a laptop screen or small screen?

It's kind of funny when people talk about Metro being only full screen or snapped when so many things we use on the desktop don't work well in anything but full screen and low DPI. The MSN web site in IE 10 actually is pretty cool in this regard, it does a lot of work to scale to any size and works great in snapped view.
 
I'm sorry but Metro snap is easily one of the best windows 8 features for tablets. I can't tell you how often I'd love to multitask on my phone or Nexus 7 after having used Win8 on a tablet.
 
heatlesssun said:
No problem.

The x230t I think is quite comparable to a touchscreen ultrabook though much thicker.
Click to expand...

And heavier. You are ignoring the fact that weight and thickness are pretty much the defining characteristics of an ultrabook and only concentrating on features and tech specs. If that was all that mattered you could carry around a desktop and touchscreen monitor with a UPS. You can't just exempt size and weight and say something is comparable.
 
Erasmus354 said:
And heavier. You are ignoring the fact that weight and thickness are pretty much the defining characteristics of an ultrabook and only concentrating on features and tech specs. If that was all that mattered you could carry around a desktop and touchscreen monitor with a UPS. You can't just exempt size and weight and say something is comparable.
Click to expand...

The specs from Lenovo list the starting weight of the x230t at 3.7 lbs. and the starting weight of the Twist at 3.48 lbs. I understand that the x230t is much thicker than ultrabooks, I stressed the thickness difference, but it isn't much heavier than lots of ultrabooks.
 
If you were the Microsoft lead designer, how would you have designed the Surface Pro? I would personally have done the following:

  • Include an ADJUSTABLE kickstand (instead of selling it as a future add-on). This seems to be the #1 complaint against the practicality of the device. You can't use the device when it's not on a flat surface (e.g. desk), ironic considering the product name is Surface.
  • Since Windows 8 was designed with Surface Pro in mind, I would have urged the software dev's to implement much better scalability. This becomes even more paramount as the industry moves beyond 1080p. The next version of Windows will probably be out well before 4k resolution hits mainstream, but maybe not before 2560x1600 catches fire.
  • Perhaps knowing that scalability was an issue, I would have urged to lower the resolution down to 1600x900. I know "1080p" is a hot marketing word, but wow, it severely hinders the touch usability of the device. As someone mentioned previously, it's a chore to pinpoint the Wacom pen.

Here are a few questions that I have been pondering as food for thought:
- That said, I wouldn't be shocked if we see a future Service Pack addressing better scaling compatibility.
- Is there any chance we'll see an AMD-based Surface Pro? I don't see any financial or computing "gains" by using an AMD product, but it's one of those fun "What If" questions.
- How fun would it be to see a full-blown Windows 8 on a smaller phone-like device? I know the hardware isn't necessarily "there" yet. Screw RT. Imagine being able to do your normal desktop computing on a Galaxy Tab-sized device. If that were the case, Microsoft would become a HUGE threat against Android and iOS.
 
Surface pro is doomed as far it goes for productivity. Desktop apps suck on it because of the resolution. Metro apps are to simple and limited. Screen is to small, input is much more tasking and limited. IE. Consumption based.

Really no one needs a 1K+ device to have a consumption device. You can get away with a simple 300 dollar device.

I know people will say its a Niche Device, well this is the problem, no Huge company like Microsoft goes and releases a niche device there is no money in it.

Microsoft also completely misunderstands the purpose of a tablet or a smart device. I work with enough large business to know what these devices are used. If you were to compare Tablet and PC's to social networking Tablets/smart phones are like twitter and PC is facebook.
Most users that use tablet use them as a quick content update and delivery with limited and restricted content creation. On a Desktop you can go to town just like facebook.

The prices for these devices are just no justifiable.
 
Wrench00 said:
Surface pro is doomed as far it goes for productivity. Desktop apps suck on it because of the resolution. Metro apps are to simple and limited. Screen is to small, input is much more tasking and limited. IE. Consumption based.

Really no one needs a 1K+ device to have a consumption device. You can get away with a simple 300 dollar device.

I know people will say its a Niche Device, well this is the problem, no Huge company like Microsoft goes and releases a niche device there is no money in it.

Microsoft also completely misunderstands the purpose of a tablet or a smart device. I work with enough large business to know what these devices are used. If you were to compare Tablet and PC's to social networking Tablets/smart phones are like twitter and PC is facebook.
Most users that use tablet use them as a quick content update and delivery with limited and restricted content creation. On a Desktop you can go to town just like facebook.

The prices for these devices are just no justifiable.
Click to expand...

I concur but only to a certain degree.

Marketing the Surface Pro's Software Capabilities
We've been jaded by Apple's iPhone and iPad; every "big" device is now expected to hit immediate popularity. It is always unusual to see a brand new tech device skyrocket like Apple's products did. Kudos to them for marketing ingenuinity. The key is for Microsoft to market the heck out of the Surface Pro and tout its strength in software content.

Microsoft needs also aggressively market the Surface Pro as a device that can run ANY mainstream software without user compromise. That means Microsoft has to play nice and partner with the likes of Adobe, EA Games/Origin, and other well-known brands to show that Surface Pro can run household titles:

  • It's own MS Office suite
  • Adobe Photoshop/Lightroom
  • The Sims 3/Simcity 5
  • Madden 14
  • Call of Duty
  • Dirt 3
The gaming end of it is tricky since the HD4000 is still not strong enough to run more-demanding games well. It doesn't mean that it can't run those games at all, though. ;)

Think about it: in the early days of the iOS and Android battle, the software selection on iOS was far superior to Android. Even if Android hardware was better, the common lay person couldn't find the same selection of apps or games on Android.

Currently, the Surface Pro purchasers are considered to be early adopters (much like Android users were back in the Cupcake days). Limitations and nagging annoyances with the Surface Pro and Windows 8 are plentiful -- much like what was experienced with Android Cupcake. The "niche" of Surface Pro users will grow more into mainstream status once it has time to penetrate the market. Price will also naturally drop by the the summer (Back-to-School season), which will appeal to the cost-concious consumer.

Back-to-School time is when Microsoft needs to be aggressive push its marketing campaign. This is also a time where parents are most willing to spend money on their kids (outside of Christmas). Many folks will be looking for notebooks for their college-bound children. The challenge is to get that parent to purchase the Surface Pro over a more cost-effective device like the Samsung Galaxy Note. Again, software content is the #1 advantage that needs to hit home with the lay consumer.

Real-life productivity
There are users out there who seek producitivty out of a small form factor device. I am both a white-collar office person in the day, and an M.B.A. Graduate Student at night.

I find that getting any productivity done on a tablet, like the iPad or an Android tablet, is a painful experience -- even if that tablet is equipped with a keyboard. I need the full computing experience of a notebook, while cherishing a device that weighs almost as light as a tablet. I realize the Surface's 2lb vs an iPad/Android tablet's 1.5lb is a big difference, but this is an acceptable comprimise considering the gains in usability.

  • Productivity software on iOS and Android are somewhat handicapped (e.g. QuickOffice or Google Docs). The formatting within documents and spreadsheets get jumbled after being imported. Even more awful is opening up that same document later in MS Word or MS Excel; time has to be spent to fix the formatting.
  • Many business professionals and higher-ed students have proprietary software needs. For work, we have an Outlook add-in that isn't compatible with any iOS/Android mail software. For school, I have a very specific Excel add-in for Statistics purposes. Other students have other specific needs like Matlab.
  • When I squeeze in leisure time, I can't pop in a game of Counter-Strike or Portal into my iOS or Android tablet. I have to settle for "Critical Strike" :)o) or Wormholes (iOS Portal ripoff :eek:)
As you can see, these are real-life needs that the Surface Pro fills. Does it fill these needs well? Not necessarily. The Surface Pro is a jack-of-all-trades but master-of-none.

The Surface Pro 2
Most of the aforementioned Surface Pro "limitations" revolve around weight and battery life. Newer next-generation hardware (read: Haswell) will allow for extra portability and improved battery life. THIS is when critics will have a harder time finding Con's against the Surface Pro.

For Microsoft's sake, my fear is that innovative competitors like Samsung, Asus, Lenovo and underdog Acer will beat them to the punch with their own tablet/notebook fusion devices based on Haswell that will eat into the Surface Pro 2's buyer space. Frankly, some of the existing devices already do that today (Samsung ATIV, Acer Iconia W700, Asus Taichi, Lenovo Ideapad Yoga).

If Microsoft is smart, they'll push hard to have the next Surface Pro 2 ready by Thanksgiving/Christmas 2013. They can use the momentum generated by its next-gen gaming console to help push the Surface Pro 2. After all, the Microsoft brand is going to already be on the forefront of shoppers' minds.
 
Comp625 said:
I concur but only to a certain degree.

Marketing the Surface Pro's Software Capabilities
We've been jaded by Apple's iPhone and iPad; every "big" device is now expected to hit immediate popularity. It is always unusual to see a brand new tech device skyrocket like Apple's products did. Kudos to them for marketing ingenuinity. The key is for Microsoft to market the heck out of the Surface Pro and tout its strength in software content.

Microsoft needs also aggressively market the Surface Pro as a device that can run ANY mainstream software without user compromise. That means Microsoft has to play nice and partner with the likes of Adobe, EA Games/Origin, and other well-known brands to show that Surface Pro can run household titles:

  • It's own MS Office suite
  • Adobe Photoshop/Lightroom
  • The Sims 3/Simcity 5
  • Madden 14
  • Call of Duty
  • Dirt 3
The gaming end of it is tricky since the HD4000 is still not strong enough to run more-demanding games well. It doesn't mean that it can't run those games at all, though. ;)

Think about it: in the early days of the iOS and Android battle, the software selection on iOS was far superior to Android. Even if Android hardware was better, the common lay person couldn't find the same selection of apps or games on Android.

Currently, the Surface Pro purchasers are considered to be early adopters (much like Android users were back in the Cupcake days). Limitations and nagging annoyances with the Surface Pro and Windows 8 are plentiful -- much like what was experienced with Android Cupcake. The "niche" of Surface Pro users will grow more into mainstream status once it has time to penetrate the market. Price will also naturally drop by the the summer (Back-to-School season), which will appeal to the cost-concious consumer.

Back-to-School time is when Microsoft needs to be aggressive push its marketing campaign. This is also a time where parents are most willing to spend money on their kids (outside of Christmas). Many folks will be looking for notebooks for their college-bound children. The challenge is to get that parent to purchase the Surface Pro over a more cost-effective device like the Samsung Galaxy Note. Again, software content is the #1 advantage that needs to hit home with the lay consumer.

Real-life productivity
There are users out there who seek producitivty out of a small form factor device. I am both a white-collar office person in the day, and an M.B.A. Graduate Student at night.

I find that getting any productivity done on a tablet, like the iPad or an Android tablet, is a painful experience -- even if that tablet is equipped with a keyboard. I need the full computing experience of a notebook, while cherishing a device that weighs almost as light as a tablet. I realize the Surface's 2lb vs an iPad/Android tablet's 1.5lb is a big difference, but this is an acceptable comprimise considering the gains in usability.

  • Productivity software on iOS and Android are somewhat handicapped (e.g. QuickOffice or Google Docs). The formatting within documents and spreadsheets get jumbled after being imported. Even more awful is opening up that same document later in MS Word or MS Excel; time has to be spent to fix the formatting.
  • Many business professionals and higher-ed students have proprietary software needs. For work, we have an Outlook add-in that isn't compatible with any iOS/Android mail software. For school, I have a very specific Excel add-in for Statistics purposes. Other students have other specific needs like Matlab.
  • When I squeeze in leisure time, I can't pop in a game of Counter-Strike or Portal into my iOS or Android tablet. I have to settle for "Critical Strike" :)o) or Wormholes (iOS Portal ripoff :eek:)
As you can see, these are real-life needs that the Surface Pro fills. Does it fill these needs well? Not necessarily. The Surface Pro is a jack-of-all-trades but master-of-none.

The Surface Pro 2
Most of the aforementioned Surface Pro "limitations" revolve around weight and battery life. Newer next-generation hardware (read: Haswell) will allow for extra portability and improved battery life. THIS is when critics will have a harder time finding Con's against the Surface Pro.

For Microsoft's sake, my fear is that innovative competitors like Samsung, Asus, Lenovo and underdog Acer will beat them to the punch with their own tablet/notebook fusion devices based on Haswell that will eat into the Surface Pro 2's buyer space. Frankly, some of the existing devices already do that today (Samsung ATIV, Acer Iconia W700, Asus Taichi, Lenovo Ideapad Yoga).

If Microsoft is smart, they'll push hard to have the next Surface Pro 2 ready by Thanksgiving/Christmas 2013. They can use the momentum generated by its next-gen gaming console to help push the Surface Pro 2. After all, the Microsoft brand is going to already be on the forefront of shoppers' minds.
Click to expand...

The thing is No pro graphic designer will EVER run photoshop on an 11inch screen. It really doesn't matter what this can run.
In the enterprise market we can setup a much better solutions which HAVE none of the limitations and are Platform agnostic.
I can take my andriod tablet with 1900X1200 Resolution!(asus t700. 9 hour battery life) setup a PCoIP/RDP to a VDI or TS server or direct control. I can attach a keyboard to my android tablet remotely connect and do all my work on a Full fledged desktop at work. There are less caveats with this setup. I can have a BYOD and not worry that the information is stored on a users device. The remote access software also has much better scaling and interaction technology then the actual apps on the device.
And again I can't reiterate the function of these devices.. These are not used for massive content creation where you need to care about Form and Format since most are informational or read use only. Most users in the networks I work with use Email and Webservices to access information they read what they need to they quickly jot an email and that is it. Again you don't need a 1k+ device to do this. When they actually need to do work 99% they use a desktop or a laptop even the really tech savy people.
Biggest problem is the size of the screen. You would need laser vision to work on such a small space.

Running photoshop on a 11" device is just an asinine attempt at futility.

Even Microsoft is going with web based services as well, what the hell is the point of this device then?
 
Wrench00 said:
The thing is No pro graphic designer will EVER run photoshop on an 11inch screen. It really doesn't matter what this can run.
Click to expand...
Hi guys. Graphic designer here. I'll run Photoshop on an eleven inch screen if I can have a reasonably decent experience doing so. Photoshop's UI isn't properly tuned for that, but it's not out of the realm of possibility that it will at some point get tuned for that.

I'd obviously rather run it on my desktop display, but if I can get something done with it on a pinch on an eleven incher, I'll take it.
 
Wrench00 said:
The thing is No pro graphic designer will EVER run photoshop on an 11inch screen.
....
Running photoshop on a 11" device is just an asinine attempt at futility.
Click to expand...

There are plenty of graphic artists that I've communicated with over the years that have always wanted something the size of the Surface Pro, artists need and want mobility as much as anyone. One of the first issues talked about in the tech blogs was the Pro's lack of pressure sensitivity in Photopshop due to not using Wacom's WinTab drivers by default and it was one of the first issues that Microsoft said that it was going to address.

These events certainly do not seem to indicate that graphic artists aren't interested in the Pro, indeed digital art has been a primary use of Windows tablets for many years now.
 
heatlesssun said:
There are plenty of graphic artists that I've communicated with over the years that have always wanted something the size of the Surface Pro, artists need and want mobility as much as anyone. One of the first issues talked about in the tech blogs was the Pro's lack of pressure sensitivity in Photopshop due to not using Wacom's WinTab drivers by default and it was one of the first issues that Microsoft said that it was going to address.

These events certainly do not seem to indicate that graphic artists aren't interested in the Pro, indeed digital art has been a primary use of Windows tablets for many years now.
Click to expand...

Yes to jot notes or come up with small edits but no production level. As I said Using an RDP session is much more succesful way to actually do things quicker and more efficiently then doing it directly on the device.

Enterprises and corporation tend to care more about Device connectivity rather then device capabilities.

Consultants on the other hand make care more about the other. Since Pro doesn't really have a good grasp on pen pressure Pro is a bit of a loss there as well. Most serious designers I know use a Pen and tablet (not a windows tablet either) but Bamboo or Intuos or a Tablet like Cintiq/DTU's.These things aren't exactly portable.

As far as Games.. Well most business want to actually prevent this.Moot point for me.

I was invited to a HP Slate session and man the marketing was superb both by HP and MS. In the end the reception was not even luke warm, more like indifferent. When you try and sell to market to consultants or system admins most of them will say exactly what I have said. Plus their budgets are severely limited.1k Device is not justifiable when I can purchase a 600 laptop with a touch screen and can get more out of it.
 
Wrench00 said:
Yes to jot notes or come up with small edits but no production level. As I said Using an RDP session is much more succesful way to actually do things quicker and more efficiently then doing it directly on the device.
Click to expand...

Running Photoshop over RDP isn't going to work as well remotely as natively. And this is going to apply to just about any application, at least with current network technology. Yes there are benefits of RDP but there are also plenty of draw backs as well.

Wrench00 said:
Consultants on the other hand make care more about the other. Since Pro doesn't really have a good grasp on pen pressure Pro is a bit of a loss there as well. Most serious designers I know use a Pen and tablet (not a windows tablet either) but Bamboo or Intuos or a Tablet like Cintiq/DTU's.These things aren't exactly portable.
Click to expand...

Cintiqs are x86 computers that generally run Windows though any x86 is an option. And what tablets support digital pens? Some Android devices that don't have anywhere the capability of something like the Surface Pro. There just isn't another platform that has the pen support of Windows.
 
Question of performance working natively versus remotely dependent on complexity of operations involved and data sizes.
 
heatlesssun said:
Running Photoshop over RDP isn't going to work as well remotely as natively. And this is going to apply to just about any application, at least with current network technology.
Click to expand...

That's all kinds of wrong. With the rise of terminals, cloud-based access, and the growing AJAX+LAMP(WAMP/MAMP) models, that's exactly what the future holds and is already here in some respects. This doesn't just apply to Web 2.0, but also to remote access within networks. All you need is a single machine/server sitting in a basement and a whole slew of tablets. The question of optimal input and form factor will always be a concern, but when isn't it?

Running natively is so 2012. We're in 2013 now :D

-

The rise of web applications has made running stuff natively a non-issue; at least for a good chunk of users and their respective needs. Most people don't need to pay 3 billion dollars for an Adobe product (or insert application name here), nor will they ever use any of the more complicated features. A thin and light web-based client more than makes sense for a vast majority of folks. Hell, even for you and me. We use web-based applications all the time, it's just not something that we're entirely aware of. In that sense, we've already crossed the stream.

On the other hand, certain productivity applications require the .exe. These applications also tend to require a more productive form factor. If we use the same Photoshop example, it's impossible to make Photoshop as complex, useful, and intuitive and still have it work well on a smallish tablet-like display. That's just not gonna' happen. Likewise, there's no way I could use Sublime text editor along with the necessary browser window side by side. That, too, is impossible on a smaller form factor. You're inevitably going to lose a lot of functionality and ease of use. None of this implies you need lots of processing power - though certain Photoshop work like rendering would. Still, that doesn't mean you can't run the application remotely and still retain the functionality and speed. I'd wager screwing with the form factor and GUI makes a much bigger impact than does waiting a fraction of a second through remote access.
 
Last edited:
heatlesssun said:
Running Photoshop over RDP isn't going to work as well remotely as natively. And this is going to apply to just about any application, at least with current network technology. Yes there are benefits of RDP but there are also plenty of draw backs as well.



Cintiqs are x86 computers that generally run Windows though any x86 is an option. And what tablets support digital pens? Some Android devices that don't have anywhere the capability of something like the Surface Pro. There just isn't another platform that has the pen support of Windows.
Click to expand...

1. You would be suprised how well PCoIP works and RemoteFX. I have run Autocad through both on my android. Works very well.
2. Cintiqs aren't exactly portable.

The bottom line the Pro is a mess that has no really niche to it. It has way to many caveats and is cost prohibitive.
This whole discussion is about Surface Pro not other tablets. I am still not changing my stance of this Device is doomed to failure and as soon as MS feels the same they will pull the plug. They have done this NUMEROUS times.
 
Wrench00 said:
1. You would be suprised how well PCoIP works and RemoteFX. I have run Autocad through both on my android. Works very well.
2. Cintiqs aren't exactly portable.
Click to expand...

A well performing remote desktop experience isn't exactly portable either. Sure, a fast and steady connection can support a lot of desktop applications reasonably well but it still doesn't generally equate to native experience from an UI interaction standpoint, especially not without that fast and steady connection. Of course if the remote host is a powerful it can offer raw horsepower beyond that of a tablet which can be useful. However if using the Windows desktop doesn't work well natively on a tablet, particularly those with high DPI displays, how would using the Windows desktop remotely on a high DPI Android device with even a smaller screen than the Surface Pro be any better? The Android device is cheaper but still needs constant connectivity to use that desktop.

Wrench00 said:
The bottom line the Pro is a mess that has no really niche to it. It has way to many caveats and is cost prohibitive.
Click to expand...

For the feature set it's no more cost prohibitive than any other thin and light x86 device.
 
heatlesssun said:
For the feature set it's no more cost prohibitive than any other thin and light x86 device.
Click to expand...

It is given the drawbacks.

If a device like this can't handle everything that a laptop can - and more importantly, with the same fluidity and ease of use - then you're paying a premium for a device that serves the same functionality as a cheaper Android tablet or an iPad.

I've mentioned this before, but the lack of a docking option is only the beginning as far as missing features go. The keyboard doesn't supplement a proper laptop keyboard and the display+DPI isn't doing it any favors either. For some people who don't use a laptop as an on-the-go desktop, then it's fine. But then again, so is an iPad or a Nexus and an RT.
 
pelo said:
It is given the drawbacks.

If a device like this can't handle everything that a laptop can - and more importantly, with the same fluidity and ease of use - then you're paying a premium for a device that serves the same functionality as a cheaper Android tablet or an iPad.
Click to expand...

Please list some x86 laptops that have a high quality 1080P, weigh around 2 lbs. with a touchscreen and pen digitizer that are significantly cheaper than the Surface Pro. I imagine that such a device would be quite popular. I have no idea where you get the notion that an x86 tablet serves the same purpose and as ARM based Android tablet or iPad. They have similarities and but are very different in their overall capabilities and top line performance.

pelo said:
I've mentioned this before, but the lack of a docking option is only the beginning as far as missing features go. The keyboard doesn't supplement a proper laptop keyboard and the display+DPI isn't doing it any favors either. For some people who don't use a laptop as an on-the-go desktop, then it's fine. But then again, so is an iPad or a Nexus and an RT.
Click to expand...

A docking option would be great but that is missing from most ultrabooks as well.
 
heatlesssun said:
Please list some x86 laptops that have a high quality 1080P, weigh around 2 lbs. with a touchscreen and pen digitizer that are significantly cheaper than the Surface Pro. I imagine that such a device would be quite popular. I have no idea where you get the notion that an x86 tablet serves the same purpose and as ARM based Android tablet or iPad. They have similarities and but are very different in their overall capabilities and top line performance.
Click to expand...

And the Surface Pro can't handle productivity tasks and software as well as a laptop. Please show me a Surface Pro that can replace a laptop as an on-the-go desktop device for professionals :)

My point was that for an overwhelming majority of prospective buyers, a tablet from Android or Apple, or even Microsoft's cheaper RT, would do the exact same things they'd ask from the Surface Pro. For the few that need x86 ULV power, they also need a form factor more conducive to productivity purposes. A cheapo keyboard, 4hrs of battery, screwed DPI scaling, no docking options and a 10.6" screen won't suffice.

The people that need x86 legacy need it for productivity software. If they don't use their laptop in such a manner then their needs are easily replaced by true blue tablets.

heatlesssun said:
A docking option would be great but that is missing from most ultrabooks as well.
Click to expand...

Which is why Ultrabooks don't see the light of day in enterprise environments. It's one, among many, reasons that Ultrabooks have been having a hard time hitting over 20% of their original sales estimates.
 
pelo said:
My point was that for an overwhelming majority of prospective buyers, a tablet from Android or Apple, or even Microsoft's cheaper RT, would do the exact same things they'd ask from the Surface Pro. For the few that need x86 ULV power, they also need a form factor more conducive to productivity purposes. A cheapo keyboard, 4hrs of battery, screwed DPI scaling, no docking options and a 10.6" screen won't suffice.
Click to expand...

How do you know what an overwhelming majority of people interested in x86 tablets want? You seem to have much a different perspective of these devices than most that I've communicated with over the years who have purchased these devices in spite of iPads and Android devices, because, drum roll please, iPads and Android tablets don't meet their needs. I've said plenty of times that devices like the Surface Pro are niche and but people buy them because they have unique capabilities that aren't present on other devices. All x86 tablets have their issues, but something that's thin and light by x86 standards that natively runs x86 software and has a digital pen, preferably a Wacom based digitizer, is what this niche market wants. Pricing and battery life and more tablet friendly software will be needed before these devices do become more mainstream.

pelo said:
The people that need x86 legacy need it for productivity software. If they don't use their laptop in such a manner then their needs are easily replaced by true blue tablets.
Click to expand...

But there are many HUGE investments in that x86 software that's never going to be rewritten because it would be cost prohibitive. The cost of the hardware that it runs on is insignificant compared to these systems and the data they contain. Just being to install those apps on a tablet without much or any effort can be of value. Sure if you just need the basics, web browsing, email, can use remote hosts, then of course something like the Surface Pro probably isn't worth it. And certainly not Microsoft nor anyone else selling Core x86 tablets is marketing them as web browsers or eReaders.

pelo said:
Which is why Ultrabooks don't see the light of day in enterprise environments. It's one, among many, reasons that Ultrabooks have been having a hard time hitting over 20% of their original sales estimates.
Click to expand...

I work for the biggest of the big banks and we have people starting to use them. Not common but some people just love the light weight because they are constantly moving around and a dock has little value to them, not to the point that they can't plug in two cables now and then over a bigger device.

It's not a zero sum game.
 
Got my type cover today. It's awesome

Still loving the surface. Nothing can touch it for portability and power IMO. Love the build quality.

Wish the stand was adjustable. But minor overall.
 
It isn't a zero sum game, but you can't ignore the abject failure that Ultrabooks have been since their introduction. A product that was expected to take the PC industry by storm is only selling a small fraction of its original estimates isn't a good sign. There are legitimate reasons for this, of course: poor battery life, high price, and the lack of anything really special. The current Ultrabooks only offer a slightly thinner design and nothing else. They're not any lighter, any more powerful, any faster, nor any cheaper. That's worth mentioning, because the notion of fulfilling a particular small niche being enough to determine a product's success is silly. Microsoft wants their Pros to sell like hotcakes just like Intel wanted their Ultrabooks to sell. Fulfilling a tiny niche doesn't pay the bills. Remember, WP7, WinMo and the Zune also filled a niche, but where are they now? The winRT tablets, the ones meant to sell ~5million units before the end of the year and the MS spearhead into tablets, sold only ~700K units.

How do you know what an overwhelming majority of people interested in x86 tablets want? You seem to have much a different perspective of these devices than most that I've communicated with over the years who have purchased these devices in spite of iPads and Android devices, because, drum roll please, iPads and Android tablets don't meet their needs. I've said plenty of times that devices like the Surface Pro are niche and but people buy them because they have unique capabilities that aren't present on other devices. All x86 tablets have their issues, but something that's thin and light by x86 standards that natively runs x86 software and has a digital pen, preferably a Wacom based digitizer, is what this niche market wants. Pricing and battery life and more tablet friendly software will be needed before these devices do become more mainstream.
Click to expand...

Again, this is a very small portion of the market. You've admitted as much yourself. The problem is that this approach will never see mainstream adoption, and as a result these aren't the 'droids they're looking for.

For the professionals who would make use for such a device, you've got an even tinier market than you think. The same applications they require x86 legacy for also tends to require a half-way decent keyboard, a nicely sized display, and it's got to be mobile. Personally speaking, there's no way I would be able to use GIMP, Photoshop or Fireworks CS6 on a Surface Pro. That's not an exaggeration either, as I would have better luck with a shitty netbook than I would with the Surface Pro tablet. And that's ignoring AutoCAD and text editor/development. The same x86 legacy applications that you keep claiming these people will run also don't behave with DPI scaling and don't have touch-suitable GUIs. A Wacom pen is better than your finger, but it still pales in comparison to a mouse, particularly if you're going to run them at native resolution - and you'll probably be running them at native resolution. Go ahead and fire up a complex and bloated UI and try using your Wacom pen and tell me how it goes :p

If the Surface Pro were a dockable device, like the ATIV 500 PC tablet, then it would have made far more sense from a practicality standpoint. The added keyboard would have been an actual keyboard that can be used for lengthy typing sessions and it would have added the much needed battery life extension. If the keyboard isn't needed, then the tablet form factor can replace something like an Android/iPad. Along with the keyboard dock, MS should have added docking features for business/enterprise users. Even still it would be a niche device, but the scope of its practicality would have been immensely increased. Instead, MS opted to build a tablet and a 'sort of shitty laptop replacement'.

But there are many HUGE investments in that x86 software that's never going to be rewritten because it would be cost prohibitive. The cost of the hardware that it runs on is insignificant compared to these systems and the data they contain. Just being to install those apps on a tablet without much or any effort can be of value. Sure if you just need the basics, web browsing, email, can use remote hosts, then of course something like the Surface Pro probably isn't worth it. And certainly not Microsoft nor anyone else selling Core x86 tablets is marketing them as web browsers or eReaders.
Click to expand...

For the average user, the iOS and Android app stores have more "apps" than the entirety of the win32/legacy x86 landscape. In fact, they have better "apps" than x86 legacy as well.
 
pelo said:
It isn't a zero sum game, but you can't ignore the abject failure that Ultrabooks have been since their introduction. A product that was expected to take the PC industry by storm is only selling a small fraction of its original estimates isn't a good sign. There are legitimate reasons for this, of course: poor battery life, high price, and the lack of anything really special. The current Ultrabooks only offer a slightly thinner design and nothing else. They're not any lighter, any more powerful, any faster, nor any cheaper. That's worth mentioning, because the notion of fulfilling a particular small niche being enough to determine a product's success is silly. Microsoft wants their Pros to sell like hotcakes just like Intel wanted their Ultrabooks to sell.
Click to expand...

I don’t think that around half is a small fraction: http://money.cnn.com/2012/10/01/technology/ultrabook-sales-forecast/index.html
I don’t disagree with your general assessment of why ultrabooks haven’t done well to date, but in time as the prices go down, and the performance and battery life go up, why would people buy heavier and thicker devices if other things are about equal? When the ultrabooks get better and cheaper they’ll sell better, I think that’s a given.

pelo said:
Fulfilling a tiny niche doesn't pay the bills. Remember, WP7, WinMo and the Zune also filled a niche, but where are they now? The winRT tablets, the ones meant to sell ~5million units before the end of the year and the MS spearhead into tablets, sold only ~700K units.
Click to expand...

WP7 and Windows Mobile have been deprecated by Windows Phone 8. The MP3 player market is imploding, even Apple sells far fewer of them than they used to. And who said that WinRT tablet would sell 5 million in less than a quarter? For a tablet starting at $500 that’s not the iPad, selling 750,000 to 1,000,000 units on a depending on who you talk to in a little over two months based on a completely new OS with nearly a 100% markup isn’t exactly the Hindenburg. And at $1000 a pop a device like the Surface Pro has to be paying somebody’s bills, though it’s more likely Intel’s bills than Microsoft’s

pelo said:
Again, this is a very small portion of the market. You've admitted as much yourself. The problem is that this approach will never see mainstream adoption, and as a result these aren't the 'droids they're looking for.
Click to expand...

For now, sure it’s niche but that doesn’t mean niche forever. At one time Windows was niche though that was a long time ago. Maybe you know what Intel and Microsoft and other PC players should be doing. Maybe they should sell Linux on devices more. Maybe Chromebooks like all the major OEMs are now. Maybe Microsoft and Intel are toast and that’s that. I think the what they are trying to do makes sense long term overall.

pelo said:
For the professionals who would make use for such a device, you've got an even tinier market than you think. The same applications they require x86 legacy for also tends to require a half-way decent keyboard, a nicely sized display, and it's got to be mobile. Personally speaking, there's no way I would be able to use GIMP, Photoshop or Fireworks CS6 on a Surface Pro. That's not an exaggeration either, as I would have better luck with a shitty netbook than I would with the Surface Pro tablet. And that's ignoring AutoCAD and text editor/development. The same x86 legacy applications that you keep claiming these people will run also don't behave with DPI scaling and don't have touch-suitable GUIs. A Wacom pen is better than your finger, but it still pales in comparison to a mouse, particularly if you're going to run them at native resolution - and you'll probably be running them at native resolution. Go ahead and fire up a complex and bloated UI and try using your Wacom pen and tell me how it goes :p
Click to expand...

A lot of people have been running these apps on Windows tablets pretty well for many years now, long before Windows 8 and the Surface Pro. And I’ve never seen a pressure sensitive mouse.

pelo said:
If the Surface Pro were a dockable device, like the ATIV 500 PC tablet, then it would have made far more sense from a practicality standpoint. The added keyboard would have been an actual keyboard that can be used for lengthy typing sessions and it would have added the much needed battery life extension. If the keyboard isn't needed, then the tablet form factor can replace something like an Android/iPad. Along with the keyboard dock, MS should have added docking features for business/enterprise users. Even still it would be a niche device, but the scope of its practicality would have been immensely increased. Instead, MS opted to build a tablet and a 'sort of shitty laptop replacement'.
Click to expand...

Plenty of OEMs are making clamshell foldable keyboard docking hybrids. That design does appeal to me more than the Surface’s and that’s why I’m waiting for the Helix. I’ll be interested in what you have to say about another Windows tablet device that you talk about all of the time but never will use.


pelo said:
For the average user, the iOS and Android app stores have more "apps" than the entirety of the win32/legacy x86 landscape. In fact, they have better "apps" than x86 legacy as well.
Click to expand...

Well sure, there’s a Facebook app for iOS and Android, Instagram, etc. Maybe a few thousand that get much attention. Then there are the apps in Google Play that I’ve seen, tons of them that have been downloaded twice. I use Bluestacks and check out Android apps all of the time and most are crap, just like all of the other app stores. Bluestacks runs well on the Surface Pro from people I've talked to BTW, there a version specifically for the Surface Pro. You often pigeonhole things that are quite a bit more capable than you realize.

But I doubt that half the people with tablets even use much beyond the web browser and a few games. I probably use more apps on my Windows 8 tablets than a large chunk of iPad and Android tablet users.
 
[H]ard Forum members are typically super-knowledgable about the most cutting edge technology, as evident by the slew of future computing solutions (e.g PCoIP and other means of remote access).

However, it is forgotten that the aforementioned concepts are not mainstream. Those concepts may already be employed in today's IT departments/firms, or may soon catch fire with IT professionals. However, devices like the Surface Pro are meant to entice the general public. Windows 8 is meant to entice the general public and its yearning for style-over-substance.

The general public doesn't have the patience to fiddle around with setting up a PC in the basement and toying around with it via tablets. Heck, the average John Layperson doesn't even know remote access is even possible. John Layperson just wants a device that works - plain and simple with no fuss.

That said, native x86 software is here to stay (at least for the next few years).
 
Comp625 said:
[H]ard Forum members are typically super-knowledgable about the most cutting edge technology, as evident by the slew of future computing solutions (e.g PCoIP and other means of remote access).

However, it is forgotten that the aforementioned concepts are not mainstream. Those concepts may already be employed in today's IT departments/firms, or may soon catch fire with IT professionals. However, devices like the Surface Pro are meant to entice the general public. Windows 8 is meant to entice the general public and its yearning for style-over-substance.

The general public doesn't have the patience to fiddle around with setting up a PC in the basement and toying around with it via tablets. Heck, the average John Layperson doesn't even know remote access is even possible. John Layperson just wants a device that works - plain and simple with no fuss.

That said, native x86 software is here to stay (at least for the next few years).
Click to expand...

I agree. The biggest problem with that notion of Joe Schmoe is that their computing needs are really not understood by microsoft. 90% of all users just need web access thats it. You don't need 1k+ device to do that, I can buy a smartphone, Tablets, that are much less hell cheap laptops bitch smack pro.

Bottom line is the consumer is worried about his wallet not how many feature the device can offer.
I am the same way. I look at my computing needs I need to be highly mobile, I hate lugging around more then 5" device. I live and work off my Galaxy and I am a power user.
Touchdown is an amazing app for email with exchange, Pocketwyse is awesome for remote sessions. I am hardly ever out of an area where 3g or wifi is not available. If I am taking a longer trip I take my laptop.
Microsoft is completley out of touch with consumers. All their Business stuff is also moving away from windows native functionality.
1k+ device is never going to succeed, Microsoft is trying to do the same they did with the xbox. Its called market penetration, they are willing to take losses to build psuedo profits over long term. The problem is that there was a demand for a console unfortunatly their is no demand for x86 tablet. People that think they will be productive and write plays and books, make 3d drawings on a tablet are kidding them selves. Most are smart enough to realize this. I still believe MS would have been better of making an ARM platform and emulator on the desktop to run such apps. X86 tablets even tho have some great functionality are really not needed.
You can scream at top of your lungs how great your product is it still doesn't change the wants or needs of the entire market.

This thing is going to fail both in Consumer and the Enterprise market.

Microsoft just like HP, Dell, Acer have lost all sense of direction when the smart phone era hit. Mobile computing has really taken the wind out of the sales to lots of these companies.
WinMo8 is still absent in Canada, I haven't seen one user out of the 1k I work for. Blackberries are still liked by governemnts. Android and iOS saturated the market.

I think computing once more is hitting a milestone like it did in 2008 when in my industry virtualization became almost an epidemic. 2012 is the start of hard cloud computing push.
 
Lots of users still want to use x86 apps. For example, I have people that just use Email/Internet/Quickbooks/Word/Excel.

That combo does not work on anything but any x86 machine.
 
You say that the consumer is concerned with cost, yet they buy apple ipads more than any other single tablet, they seem to be willing to pay alot more for something right? And if you really think about cost, what cost more, at tablet and a laptop and all accessories, or a single device like surface which can do both jobs? How about arguing the fact that tablets themself are a waste of money, they cannot replace any device you own, rather they just add to the devices and cost of owner ship? MS is directly attacking these problems yet you are saying they are completely out of touch.

The fact is more that MS just tried to make some thing too innovative and the problem is they dont really do a good job of pushing and advertising its benefits.

And as for your cloud computing push, it seems like MS is right there with skydrive.

I think people here rest too much on surface itself and not enough on all the devices. Surface is just one product, and it is honestly the right product for MS to produce because it brings something new to the table, we still have more options than every before in history of mobile form factos, from dells flipping to lenovos helix, to the old standby convertibles. ARM, ATOM, core,

the problem has nothing to do with being out of touch it has to do with consumer ignorance and the only way that can be solved is through massive targets advertising. So the problem is MS marketing more than anything. I can walk up to just about any person I know and ask them the difference between surface and surface pro, and they havent a clue. Consumers dont get it at all. But yet somehow apple has convinced tons of their customers to go out and buy at least 3 devices. How are those consumers caring about cost? they arent.
 
People pay all sorts of money to try to turn their iPads into productive tablets, but they can never be a true proper productivity device in general. No office, no USB ports, no x86 programs, and for the most part unwieldy keyboards. The Surface Pro isn't perfect, but it definitely is going to kill it in a certain part of the market with certain types of people. If I weren't getting the Helix I would probably get an SPro.
 
With this discussion of remote desktop solutions I started looking at Bluestacks again. I had forgot about it until this discussion reminded me that there was a version of Bluestacks just released that is optimized for the Surface Pro. I installed it on most of my Windows 8 devices last night and wow, it's much better than the last version I tried. I even runs on my Atom tablet, though not well enough to be practical. On all of my Core devices it runs very well. All of the apps I tried worked great overall, Instagram ran but I couldn't get it to upload pictures. Wasted an 30 minutes playing this stupid game called Bunny Shooter, it's actually a blast, worked with touch and a mouse.

So effectively a device like the Surface Pro runs Windows desktop apps, Metro apps and even Android apps all locally and simultaneously. Damn.
 
I guess I am more advanced then even the more cutting edge people. I like cloud stuff. I mostly have my own private cloud and rarely go to public as I don't wish to have my or my clients located even accidentally outside of Canada or my province.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top