Linux Is Not A "Second String" Operating System

heatlesssun said:
So the average user won't be able to deal with Windows 8 because the Start Button & Menu are gone but they'd be perfectly good with signing bootloaders?
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Not being able to deal with Windows 8, is not the same as not wanting to deal with Windows 8 which is the objection.

I could ride a tricycle starting many decades ago when I was 3. Been almost as long since I stopped wanting to.
 
corrupted223 said:
What is different in Asia? Is it because of low incomes there that it is more attractive or easier to get? I understand how that would make a difference.
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You mean besides the fact that the Chinese government supports linux? Income has nothing to do with it, the Chinese have never been shy about piracy if they wanted to run windows they would.

Looking at statistics will not give you even close to a real look at the linux market share.

In 2009 Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer indicated that Linux had a greater desktop market share than Mac, stating that in recent years Linux had "certainly increased its share somewhat". Just under a third of all Dell netbook sales in 2009 had Linux installed.
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Caitlyn Martin, researching retail market numbers in the summer of 2010 also concluded that the traditional numbers mentioned for Linux desktop adoption were far too low:
It seems like almost every day someone in the tech press or someone commenting in a technical forum will claim that Linux adoption on the desktop (including laptops) is insignificant. The number that is thrown around is 1%. These claims are even repeated by some who advocate for Linux adoption. Both the idea that Linux market share on the desktop is insignificant and the 1% figure are simply false and have been for many years...Where does the 1% number come from? There are two sources: very old data and web counters. The problem with using web counters to try and ascertain market share is that they generally only include websites that have paid to be counted. That pretty much guarantees that Windows will be overcounted.
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In April 2009 Aaron Seigo of KDE indicated that most web-page counter methods produce Linux adoption numbers that are far too low given the system's extensive penetration into non-North American markets, especially China. He stated that the North American-based web-measurement methods produce high Windows numbers and ignore the widespread use of Linux in other parts of the world. In estimating true worldwide desktop adoption and accounting for the Windows-distorted environment in the USA and Canada he indicated that at least 8% of the world desktops run Linux distributions and possibly as high as 10–12% and that the numbers are rising quickly. Other commentators have echoed this same belief, noting that competitors are expending a lot of effort to discredit Linux, which is incongruent with a tiny market share:
"I don't believe that the desktop Linux market share is barely 1%. I think it is a lot higher. I have no good data to share; I base my assessment on experience and knowing the industry. There is something else that is even more persuasive, and that is how Microsoft behaves. If Linux is so insignificant, why do they pay so much attention to it?"
—Carla Schroder, Linux Today
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But this IMO is the most telling piece of information.

According to W3Counter webpage hits the Linux desktop market share increased 62% from 1.32% to 2.13% between mid 2007 and the beginning of 2009, while Windows use fell from 95.52% to 88.77% in the same period, a drop of 7%.
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Nothing grew to fill in that gap, we know it wasn't MacOS because measuring their sales gives a very accurate picture of their market share so where did that 6% go? Did they just magically vanish and stop using computers?

The 1% figures you commonly see for linux market share is simply not possible and this should be obvious to anyone with more than 4 brain cells. Realistically based on what people have said in the industry it is likely somewhere between 8-12%, while not staggering in numbers its certainly something to be considered.

If the 1% figures where even remotely true you wouldnt see microsoft so interested, Valve wouldnt be porting steam etc. The people in the know have figured out that the market share numbers for linux are bullshit, its about time the haters come to grips with this. If Ballmer says it has more market share than macOS and Valve sees enough market share to port steam its about time we stop going on about that 1% figure because its pretty obvious its never been accurate.
 
Thanks, I had not read that information before. While I use windows for everything due the software I like to run, I would be very open to running Linux for gaming if it offered significantly better performance and ease of use such as patching etc. I support many Linux servers here at work and it works amazing for that, yet desktops are limited to the ones in the dev groups, and they are dual booting. I do not see Windows on the way out like some people are saying, yet an increase in users and software such as games could be nothing but beneficial to the consumer. Pressure on MS is nothing but good if you ask me.
 
Personally, gaming is the only thing holding me back from using Ubuntu full time, but I see that fading quickly with Valve working on Steam for Linux, as well as people like Gabe, Mike Mordhaime (Blizzard CEO), Notch, and others talking ill of Windows 8 and now spending more time looking at alternative operating systems. I used Ubuntu 12.04 through VMWare fullscreen, basically using it as a layer over top Win7...first time I've used a Linux OS in over 6 years, and I was impressed. I could very easily find myself using it as a primary OS, if only the games were there. Give me TF2, CSGO, and SC2, and you've got me hooked.
 
pelo said:
Except in Asia.
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Funny. in Asia they still use Windows. Except they use counterfeit copies. So why would they use cheap/free Windows over cheap/free Linux? Oh, because everything works on windows.
 
IMO, Linux has it's place and distros like Ubuntu and Mint are getting better and better each release. I think people fall into FUD, get scared at a little change and flip out. I've put Ubuntu/Xubuntu on some friend's old laptops/desktops and they love how much faster their systems are for basic web/office/pics usage.

However, one thing that I've noticed while using Linux is that when you get down to using Windows-based software on Linux, you have a 50/50 shot of it working for the first thing and may have a little learning curve just getting it installed. Yes, there are other apps that ease this process, but there is nothing built into the OS right out of the box. This IMO hurts Linux distros.

When I read that L4D2 was running faster on Ubuntu than Windows, I was really surprised. I'm just glad that a big leading company like Valve is taking the time to port their games to Linux and giving the OS the attention is deserves in the gaming aspect.

Love it or hate it, Linux isn't dead, it's not going away. Windows 8 won't make anybody "switch" to Linux, but people will just stay with Win7. What about those who buy new PCs with Win8? Then, yeah, they have the decision to keep and deal with it, or they can try Linux out.
 
heatlesssun said:
Linux sucks.
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You know, I said Microsoft sucks, not Windows.
I think it's safe to say that you are on par with Apple iFollowers.

Dude, I had some respect for you before, but now, well, you just keep following Microsoft blindly.
Just because it's your job doesn't mean you have to blindly submit, which you obviously are at this point.
 
damicatz:
That is not enough.

The only acceptable setup is one in which I, the user, have the master key needed to sign bootloaders to run on MY computer.

The user, and not the OEM or Microsoft, should decide what is and isn't to be trusted.
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I'm not a crypto expert, but I believe giving the master key out to sign any boot loader you want would defeat the purpose as any malware could sign itself as well. In which case, you might as well just disable secureboot.

Exactly.
Apparently devil22 wants to be controlled; he should buy an Apple system and be happy with it. :rolleyes:
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Don't see how I am controlled. I run any program I want on my PC. If I didn't choose Windows, I could still run unix/linux OSes. Seems to be you are the one who is controlled, controlled by paranoia and obsession. The computer equivalent of someone living in the desert, with a cache of weapons and food and a tin foil hat, yelling about everyone else is a slave to corporate/government/Illuminati whims.
 
Disposed said:
You mean besides the fact that the Chinese government supports linux? Income has nothing to do with it, the Chinese have never been shy about piracy if they wanted to run windows they would.

Looking at statistics will not give you even close to a real look at the linux market share.

But this IMO is the most telling piece of information.

Nothing grew to fill in that gap, we know it wasn't MacOS because measuring their sales gives a very accurate picture of their market share so where did that 6% go? Did they just magically vanish and stop using computers?

The 1% figures you commonly see for linux market share is simply not possible and this should be obvious to anyone with more than 4 brain cells. Realistically based on what people have said in the industry it is likely somewhere between 8-12%, while not staggering in numbers its certainly something to be considered.

If the 1% figures where even remotely true you wouldnt see microsoft so interested, Valve wouldnt be porting steam etc. The people in the know have figured out that the market share numbers for linux are bullshit, its about time the haters come to grips with this. If Ballmer says it has more market share than macOS and Valve sees enough market share to port steam its about time we stop going on about that 1% figure because its pretty obvious its never been accurate.
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People can "feel" however they want, every single web statistic source I've seen says ~1% for linux. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_market_share is a good source, it list many web statistic sources. The highest market share numbers for linux come from Chitika (2.9%) on that wikipedia page, I've never heard of them before and don't know how reliable they are, but every other source says half that or less. Wikimedia is based around free and open source information, and even it says 1.6% for linux. The missing 6% at w3counter could be anything from a programming error on their side, or probably something like a new version of iOS.

It is highly unlikely all these sources are missing some huge linux population somewhere. You can do web statistics without paying a thing, the blog in my sig has a statcounter gadget that cost me nothing I simply copy-n-pasted the html/javascripthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_market_share#cite_note-15, and it gives me the statistics.To address Balmer's comment specifically; well, let's just say if Balmer had said linux market share is less than thought, you'd call him a big fat liar. In fact he probably is lying in this case, to get antitrust heat off his back or something, who knows.
 
heatlesssun said:
So the average user won't be able to deal with Windows 8 because the Start Button & Menu are gone but they'd be perfectly good with signing bootloaders?
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Oh no, we can 'deal' with it, we just don't want to, mainly because it's bullshit.
You know, Apple is starting to merge OS X 10.8 with quite a few of the features with iOS 5 so that users can link their iDevices together with it that much more seamlessly.

What does Microsoft do?
They actually force Windows 8 on both the desktop AND the other devices, making a crappy meld of one OS, not being particularly good at either and just being annoying enough for all of the devs and pro-users dislike it.

devil22 said:
The computer equivalent of someone living in the desert, with a cache of weapons and food and a tin foil hat, yelling about everyone else is a slave to corporate/government/Illuminati whims.
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This day and age, I see nothing wrong with that.
Also, when one acts like heatlesssun does, they are a very obvious slave to corporate whims.
 
Red Falcon said:
Oh no, we can 'deal' with it, we just don't want to, mainly because it's bullshit.
You know, Apple is starting to merge OS X 10.8 with quite a few of the features with iOS 5 so that users can link their iDevices together with it that much more seamlessly.

What does Microsoft do?
They actually force Windows 8 on both the desktop AND the other devices, making a crappy meld of one OS, not being particularly good at either and just being annoying enough for all of the devs and pro-users dislike it.


This day and age, I see nothing wrong with that.
Also, when one acts like heatlesssun does, they are a very obvious slave to corporate whims.
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Yea, more likely you are just forced to vilify anyone who opposes your paranoid fantasies because you can't deal with not getting your way with people. And all I can say about the "nothing wrong with that" bit, is please go do it if you feel that way and don't let the door hit you in the ass..
 
devil22 said:
People can "feel" however they want, every single web statistic source I've seen says ~1% for linux. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_market_share is a good source, it list many web statistic sources. The highest market share numbers for linux come from Chitika (2.9%) on that wikipedia page, I've never heard of them before and don't know how reliable they are, but every other source says half that or less. Wikimedia is based around free and open source information, and even it says 1.6% for linux. The missing 6% at w3counter could be anything from a programming error on their side, or probably something like a new version of iOS.

It is highly unlikely all these sources are missing some huge linux population somewhere. You can do web statistics without paying a thing, the blog in my sig has a statcounter gadget that cost me nothing I simply copy-n-pasted the html/javascripthttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OS_market_share#cite_note-15, and it gives me the statistics.To address Balmer's comment specifically; well, let's just say if Balmer had said linux market share is less than thought, you'd call him a big fat liar. In fact he probably is lying in this case, to get antitrust heat off his back or something, who knows.
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Common sense... 1% is not possible.

Ubuntu ALONE has about 20 million, there are 1.1 billion computers in the world. So if we pretend ubuntu is the only linux distro ever its damn near 2% on its own. So like i said the 1% number is...not...possible
 
devil22 said:
Yea, more likely you are just forced to vilify anyone who opposes your paranoid fantasies because you can't deal with not getting your way with people.
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I don't force anyone to do anything they don't want to; in the end, it's their choice.
However, if what they are doing makes no sense, I'm going to call them on it.

And all I can say about the "nothing wrong with that" bit, is please go do it if you feel that way and don't let the door hit you in the ass..
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You know, if you don't like what I say, then feel free to STFU and GTFO.
No one here is particularly fond of your hateful/useless comments at the moment, either.
 
Disposed said:
Common sense... 1% is not possible.

Ubuntu ALONE has about 20 million, there are 1.1 billion computers in the world. So if we pretend ubuntu is the only linux distro ever its damn near 2% on its own. So like i said the 1% number is...not...possible
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It makes perfect sense because that's what all the web statistics sites say, *including* wikimedia. wikipedia is a free open information site, and *it* says 1.6% for linux. That counts for a lot more to me than people's intuition and feelings on the subject. I'm not sure the 1.1 billion computers -or- the 20 million ubuntu users figures are correct either, I've heard up to 2 billion computers as well. Also before google pulled their OS statistics, it as well had linux at 1%. If it were just one statistics source, I might believe it is wrong, but not every single one of them including open source oriented sites like wikipedia.

Red Falcon said:
I don't force anyone to do anything they don't want to; in the end, it's their choice.
However, if what they are doing makes no sense, I'm going to call them on it.
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Good for you. I'll do the same when I see people making paranoid claims and jumping on the hate wagon.

You know, if you don't like what I say, then feel free to STFU and GTFO.
No one here is particularly fond of your hateful/useless comments at the moment, either.
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Pot, kettle. And the same applies to you, feel free to do likewise if you don't like what I say about operating systems people do not even want to download for free..
 
I would really love to see companies support Linux more. Native drivers for hardware, hardware features that are designed to work in a way that makes it work in Linux (ex: a network device having a web base GUI instead of having to install some proprietary software or a USB device acting as storage and not need proprietary software)

I've been running Linux for a few months now and love it. The only downside is lack of support for stuff like games I have to dual boot to Windows a lot. Or even things like motherboard specific features like fan speed control normally does not work in Linux.

The Linux community should also try to help the situation by keeping things standard across all distros. That would make it much easier for companies to support it.
 
devil22 said:
Pot, kettle. And the same applies to you, feel free to do likewise if you don't like what I say about operating systems people do not even want to download for free..
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Nice to meet you kettle. ;)

If gaming were available on Linux, especially Steam, they would want to download Linux distros for free and would drop Windows like a hotcake.
The majority of gamers only game and use the Internet via web browser, so why would they want to spend $200-300+ on an OS when they can simply download one for free, not have to worry or mess with activation keys, registration, AV/anti-malware tools, or any of the other crap that goes along with Windows?

If Steam comes to Linux, Microsoft had better pray that the loss of OS market share can be brought back with Win 8 tablets.
 
Red Falcon said:
Nice to meet you kettle. ;)

If gaming were available on Linux, especially Steam, they would want to download Linux distros for free and would drop Windows like a hotcake.
The majority of gamers only game and use the Internet via web browser, so why would they want to spend $200-300+ on an OS when they can simply download one for free, not have to worry or mess with activation keys, registration, AV/anti-malware tools, or any of the other crap that goes along with Windows?

If Steam comes to Linux, Microsoft had better pray that the loss of OS market share can be brought back with Win 8 tablets.
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If the majority of gamers went to linux, the malware writers would follow. Linux does nothing special that makes it immune to malware, the only real benefit is the software depositories, but if the android store can be used to distribute malware so can those depositories. Also, at this point I don't believe you can do a financial transaction when downloading from them, so many developers would have to keep distributing software on their web site, which means users would need to be able to install software from a web site and would thus result in them also installing malware similar to the situation on Windows. There would be virtually no difference. Windows can be got for $100 (and Windows 8 for half that, at least). You don't have to register Windows. The activation process is one time, and I as a hardware enthusiast that changes many parts I have never seen a reactivation, though I know they can happen it must be extremely rare, and takes at most 5 minutes one time and you're done. I'd be willing to bet it's almost entirely nothing but pirates that complain about this when their cracks get zapped. Don't know what 'any of the other crap' is, please enlighten. Now that we've gotten the usual linux anti-facts out of the way, on to the meat of your post:

And steam coming to linux doesn't mean jack. Developers already had a way to distribute games to linux, the software depositories or just old fashioned web distribution. It's highly unlikely any of them will care because there is yet another way to distribute their stuff, they are still not going to port their games, and all you're going to get out valve is a few ancient ports before they realize how useless it is, like Carmack has, imo. Games didn't come to Windows because of steam, they were already on Windows, therefore steam coming to linux isn't going to change a thing there either (again, imo.) Linux is all promises about the future, wake me when that promise is fulfilled.
 
Nobody spends $200 or $300 dollars on a OS. Consumers that is. Everyone buys a computer and to them they get the OS for free. Out of the millions of people that use Windows, I doubt any of them would drop their OS to pick up one that they have no experience. For example, out of the 10 million people who played WoW, I believe that it would be an extreme minority who would even be interested in dealing with things like drivers for video cards. Have you seen the forums blow up over single small changes that people didnt understand? Now magnify that with the attitudes on the Linux forums that the bearded old guys give every one that asks a question. That right there is the big problem. Ease of use and perceived time investment.

People have no patience with anything, and taking time to invest in learning a new OS that they might never have heard of or know nothing about is not something they will deal with.
 
devil22 said:
And steam coming to linux doesn't mean jack. Developers already had a way to distribute games to linux, the software depositories or just old fashioned web distribution. It's highly unlikely any of them will care because there is yet another way to distribute their stuff, they are still not going to port their games, and all you're going to get out valve is a few ancient ports before they realize how useless it is, like Carmack has, imo. Games didn't come to Windows because of steam, they were already on Windows, therefore steam coming to linux isn't going to change a thing there either (again, imo.) Linux is all promises about the future, wake me when that promise is fulfilled.
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Perhaps, but we'll see if/when Steam comes to Linux.
If not, then Linux will remain where it is now, not a big deal.
 
devil22 said:
It makes perfect sense because that's what all the web statistics sites say, *including* wikimedia. wikipedia is a free open information site, and *it* says 1.6% for linux. That counts for a lot more to me than people's intuition and feelings on the subject. I'm not sure the 1.1 billion computers -or- the 20 million ubuntu users figures are correct either, I've heard up to 2 billion computers as well. Also before google pulled their OS statistics, it as well had linux at 1%. If it were just one statistics source, I might believe it is wrong, but not every single one of them including open source oriented sites like wikipedia.
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The estimate is between 900 million and 1.1 billion i was being nice and going with the high end. I dont know where you heard 2 billion besides thats the projected amount by around 2015.
 
Disposed said:
The estimate is between 900 million and 1.1 billion i was being nice and going with the high end. I dont know where you heard 2 billion besides thats the projected amount by around 2015.
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Yeah, it doesn't make any sense with what devil22 is saying about the 1-2% when there is obviously more Linux systems in the industry than those statistics are showing, common sense shows that.
I understand what he's saying from the stats, but the stats don't add up.

Even if Linux will never exist in the mainstream OS market, it certainly has its place in HPC, supercomputer, enterprise, and performance-systems markets.
 
devil22 said:
If the majority of gamers went to linux, the malware writers would follow. Linux does nothing special that makes it immune to malware, the only real benefit is the software depositories, but if the android store can be used to distribute malware so can those depositories. Also, at this point I don't believe you can do a financial transaction when downloading from them, so many developers would have to keep distributing software on their web site, which means users would need to be able to install software from a web site and would thus result in them also installing malware similar to the situation on Windows. There would be virtually no difference. Windows can be got for $100 (and Windows 8 for half that, at least). You don't have to register Windows. The activation process is one time, and I as a hardware enthusiast that changes many parts I have never seen a reactivation, though I know they can happen it must be extremely rare, and takes at most 5 minutes one time and you're done. I'd be willing to bet it's almost entirely nothing but pirates that complain about this when their cracks get zapped. Don't know what 'any of the other crap' is, please enlighten. Now that we've gotten the usual linux anti-facts out of the way, on to the meat of your post:

And steam coming to linux doesn't mean jack. Developers already had a way to distribute games to linux, the software depositories or just old fashioned web distribution. It's highly unlikely any of them will care because there is yet another way to distribute their stuff, they are still not going to port their games, and all you're going to get out valve is a few ancient ports before they realize how useless it is, like Carmack has, imo. Games didn't come to Windows because of steam, they were already on Windows, therefore steam coming to linux isn't going to change a thing there either (again, imo.) Linux is all promises about the future, wake me when that promise is fulfilled.
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Let's see, what does GNU/Linux have over Windows in terms of security :

1.Most DEs go out of their way to make running as root as difficult as possible.
2.Files must be explicitly given permission to execute. Even if you download an executable attachment, it will not run unless you go into your file manager and change the permissions to allow execution.
3.GNU/Linux doesn't rely solely on file extensions to determine a file type.
4.It doesn't put everything on the network by default. Windows has tons of services that listen on the network such as WMI and Remote Registry; services that the average home user does not need and that present a security risk.

Red Squirrel said:
I would really love to see companies support Linux more. Native drivers for hardware, hardware features that are designed to work in a way that makes it work in Linux (ex: a network device having a web base GUI instead of having to install some proprietary software or a USB device acting as storage and not need proprietary software)

I've been running Linux for a few months now and love it. The only downside is lack of support for stuff like games I have to dual boot to Windows a lot. Or even things like motherboard specific features like fan speed control normally does not work in Linux.

The Linux community should also try to help the situation by keeping things standard across all distros. That would make it much easier for companies to support it.
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There are ongoing efforts to standardize things. In particular, there is FreeDesktop.org as well as DBus. A lot of progress has been made over the last 5 years in particular, towards this goal. For example, all of my applications notifications work seamlessly in KDE's notification center even though they use disparate APIs because the notifications API has been standardized.

The Linux kernel should support fan control. What kind of computer are you using and what distro are you using?

devil22 said:
Yea, more likely you are just forced to vilify anyone who opposes your paranoid fantasies because you can't deal with not getting your way with people. And all I can say about the "nothing wrong with that" bit, is please go do it if you feel that way and don't let the door hit you in the ass..
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I see you are taking the Steve Ballmer approach to debating. Perhaps you'd like to throw a chair next.

devil22 said:
damicatz:

I'm not a crypto expert, but I believe giving the master key out to sign any boot loader you want would defeat the purpose as any malware could sign itself as well. In which case, you might as well just disable secureboot.
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Every computer should have it's own master key to allow the user complete control over their own hardware.
 
Red Falcon said:
If gaming were available on Linux, especially Steam, they would want to download Linux distros for free and would drop Windows like a hotcake.
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Why would I want to drop it? It's already installed, working, and running all of my games + other software....


Red Falcon said:
The majority of gamers only game and use the Internet via web browser, so why would they want to spend $200-300+ on an OS when they can simply download one for free, not have to worry or mess with activation keys, registration, AV/anti-malware tools, or any of the other crap that goes along with Windows?
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$200 to $300? I've never payed that much for a Windows license, and the upgrade to Windows 8 is only going to cost $40.

And sure, you can download a distro for free, but that's when the headaches start. Some of them (like Ubunut) do actually push for registration to use their cloud service. And after that, lets say I want to watch a DVD (or anything else using non-free codecs) legally on Linux... oops, "]I have to go and buy the codecs for $40 just to do that. There's always the option of stealing the codecs, but if part of your argument for Linux involves me having to steal things to keep it from costing me money, then there's a problem.

Before you say it, yes, I know Windows 8 Home and Pro don't play DVD's out of the box either. I imagine part of the reason Windows 8 can be sold so cheap is because they stopped paying for some of the more expensive codec licensing that was part of Windows 7. You can still pay for those codecs if you want, bringing back 1st party DVD playback support, in the form of the Media Center add-on that will be sold along side Windows 8 directly from Microsoft. Oh, and as an added bonus, anyone who upgrades from Windows 8 Home to Windows 8 Pro automatically gets the Media Center add-on and the codecs.

And I'm not sure how antivirus or anti-malware tools enter into this. You don't stop using an antivirus and a firewall simply because you switched OS's, I still consider those to be required installations on Linux and OSX, just as I consider them required installations on older versions of Windows (now that Windows 8 has a firewall and an antivirus built in, it's not as big of a worry).
 
Huh, that's weird. My example link to fluendo.com (where you can buy codecs for Linux) got culled from the above post. Not sure what's going on there...
 
Lets see all these people try to get their 3-4 monitors working with eyefinity on Linux along with their games. There is far more that needs to be made brainless for the end user if linux is ever becoming anything more than a hobby on the desktop. Which it wont.
 
4saken said:
Lets see all these people try to get their 3-4 monitors working with eyefinity on Linux along with their games. There is far more that needs to be made brainless for the end user if linux is ever becoming anything more than a hobby on the desktop. Which it wont.
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We've had support for what you call "Eyefinity" long before it ever existed for Windows.
 
damicatz said:
Let's see, what does GNU/Linux have over Windows in terms of security :

1.Most DEs go out of their way to make running as root as difficult as possible.
Click to expand...
Vista+ do not run the user as Admin either. And 'go out of your way' is not a security boundary.
2.Files must be explicitly given permission to execute. Even if you download an executable attachment, it will not run unless you go into your file manager and change the permissions to allow execution.
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'explicitly given permission' means typing in a single line of text into a console that the user could be coached to do by malware distributors. This is not a security boundary either, this is a time waster.
3.GNU/Linux doesn't rely solely on file extensions to determine a file type.
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Goes with 2., and again not a security boundary, just a different way of doing things.

4.It doesn't put everything on the network by default. Windows has tons of services that listen on the network such as WMI and Remote Registry; services that the average home user does not need and that present a security risk.
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Every port is blocked in Windows Vista+ unless you run an app that first opens an outbound connection on that port. WMI and remote registry must be manually enabled and configured before they listen. But please keep going, maybe you'll say something wrong about something I'm not familiar with then you can win the internetz.
I see you are taking the Steve Ballmer approach to debating. Perhaps you'd like to throw a chair next.
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Yawn. Of course, only one person, someone who went to work for google even claims to have seen Balmer do that. I could ask you something similar substituting Hans Reiser in (who was convicted in court, versus being convicted on the internet like Balmer), but I think that particular linux user's behavior is too unpleasant to mention. Where are we going in the next post, are we going to embrace extend extinguish monkey dance the monopoly halloween memo?
Every computer should have it's own master key to allow the user complete control over their own hardware.
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How do you propose an OS get signed by a billion different people's master keys?
 
Unknown-One said:
And I'm not sure how antivirus or anti-malware tools enter into this. You don't stop using an antivirus and a firewall simply because you switched OS's, I still consider those to be required installations on Linux and OSX, just as I consider them required installations on older versions of...
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I never said anything about a firewall, which is built-in to Linux distros, or did you not know that?
Also, the only reason to use AV programs on Linux or OS X is to filter for Windows-based viruses and malware.

Windows (now that Windows 8 has a firewall and an antivirus built in, it's not as big of a worry).
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Um, Windows has had a firewall built-in since XP, and Microsoft just integrated MSE into Win 8.
It's not like Win 8 is bringing anything new to the table in that area, so why are you speaking as though it does?
Do you even know what you are talking about?
 
devil22 said:
Vista+ do not run the user as Admin either. And 'go out of your way' is not a security boundary.

'explicitly given permission' means typing in a single line of text into a console that the user could be coached to do by malware distributors. This is not a security boundary either, this is a time waster.

Goes with 2., and again not a security boundary, just a different way of doing things.


Every port is blocked in Windows Vista+ unless you run an app that first opens an outbound connection on that port. WMI and remote registry must be manually enabled and configured before they listen. But please keep going, maybe you'll say something wrong about something I'm not familiar with then you can win the internetz.

Yawn. Of course, only one person, someone who went to work for google even claims to have seen Balmer do that. I could ask you something similar substituting Hans Reiser in (who was convicted in court, versus being convicted on the internet like Balmer), but I think that particular linux user's behavior is too unpleasant to mention. Where are we going in the next post, are we going to embrace extend extinguish monkey dance the monopoly halloween memo?

How do you propose an OS get signed by a billion different people's master keys?
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but you are treating Linux distros as though they run the same permissions as Windows, when they clearly do not.
damicatz is right about everything he has said, and Linux has quite the security due to its root properties, depending on the distro and one's own customizations.

Windows doesn't work that way, malware can still get on a Windows system even without "administrative" permissions, can open ports without the user knowing about it (which can't happen on Linux unless one is running solely as root), and can disable/break the firewall and other functions via the crappy registry which is the bane of Windows itself.

Do you even know anything about Linux?!
Also, not all Linux distros are the same, and to write malware, one would have to write it for EVERY SINGLE DISTRO as even branches on the big three can operate differently.

Maybe you know your shit when it comes to Windows, but you obviously do not when it comes to Linux.
 
corrupted223 said:
Nobody spends $200 or $300 dollars on a OS. Consumers that is. Everyone buys a computer and to them they get the OS for free. Out of the millions of people that use Windows, I doubt any of them would drop their OS to pick up one that they have no experience. For example, out of the 10 million people who played WoW, I believe that it would be an extreme minority who would even be interested in dealing with things like drivers for video cards. Have you seen the forums blow up over single small changes that people didnt understand? Now magnify that with the attitudes on the Linux forums that the bearded old guys give every one that asks a question. That right there is the big problem. Ease of use and perceived time investment.

People have no patience with anything, and taking time to invest in learning a new OS that they might never have heard of or know nothing about is not something they will deal with.
Click to expand...

Yet this is exactly what Microsoft is forcing on customers with the Metro interface and remapping features/setting locations. Its also what they did with MS Office. So there is no avoiding that by staying with Windows and her MS cousins either.
 
devil22 said:
How do you propose an OS get signed by a billion different people's master keys?
Click to expand...

The same way MAC addresses are issued, only it would be a master key for a mother/main/logic board.
I don't know or see why this is trivial or even an issue.

I don't agree with it for personal systems, but in an enterprise environment, it would certainly be a good addition to security, and least on the hardware/firmware level.
 
4saken said:
Lets see all these people try to get their 3-4 monitors working with eyefinity on Linux along with their games. There is far more that needs to be made brainless for the end user if linux is ever becoming anything more than a hobby on the desktop. Which it wont.
Click to expand...

So a super high end enthusiast configuration has to be brainless for Linux to be a success? What a compelling and well thought out argument. :rolleyes:
 
Unknown-One said:
Why would I want to drop it? It's already installed, working, and running all of my games + other software....



$200 to $300? I've never payed that much for a Windows license, and the upgrade to Windows 8 is only going to cost $40.

And sure, you can download a distro for free, but that's when the headaches start. Some of them (like Ubunut) do actually push for registration to use their cloud service. And after that, lets say I want to watch a DVD (or anything else using non-free codecs) legally on Linux... oops, "]I have to go and buy the codecs for $40 just to do that. There's always the option of stealing the codecs, but if part of your argument for Linux involves me having to steal things to keep it from costing me money, then there's a problem.

Before you say it, yes, I know Windows 8 Home and Pro don't play DVD's out of the box either. I imagine part of the reason Windows 8 can be sold so cheap is because they stopped paying for some of the more expensive codec licensing that was part of Windows 7. You can still pay for those codecs if you want, bringing back 1st party DVD playback support, in the form of the Media Center add-on that will be sold along side Windows 8 directly from Microsoft. Oh, and as an added bonus, anyone who upgrades from Windows 8 Home to Windows 8 Pro automatically gets the Media Center add-on and the codecs.

And I'm not sure how antivirus or anti-malware tools enter into this. You don't stop using an antivirus and a firewall simply because you switched OS's, I still consider those to be required installations on Linux and OSX, just as I consider them required installations on older versions of Windows (now that Windows 8 has a firewall and an antivirus built in, it's not as big of a worry).
Click to expand...

You cannot steal that which doesn't exist to begin with. I have no problem downloading free codecs that "violate patents" because I have a right to watch my media on any device I please. I reject the notion that anyone, government or person, has the right to use violence against me in order to claim ownership over a universal.

devil22 said:
Vista+ do not run the user as Admin either. And 'go out of your way' is not a security boundary.
Click to expand...

Running as admin = Being a member of the Administrators group. You should not be able to elevate without a password because that forces the user to stop and think about what they are doing.

'explicitly given permission' means typing in a single line of text into a console that the user could be coached to do by malware distributors. This is not a security boundary either, this is a time waster.
Click to expand...

It is still another step in the process.

Goes with 2., and again not a security boundary, just a different way of doing things.
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More like a stupid way of doing things. .jpg.exe (or, .jpg.bin if you will) does not work in GNU/Linux without the user going out of their way because :

1.GNU/Linux does not hide file extensions. It will show up as executable with the appropriate file extension.

2.They have to explicit mark it as executable.

3.Some file managers will actually refuse to allow you to open a file if the file extension does not match the contents.

Every port is blocked in Windows Vista+ unless you run an app that first opens an outbound connection on that port. WMI and remote registry must be manually enabled and configured before they listen. But please keep going, maybe you'll say something wrong about something I'm not familiar with then you can win the internetz.

Yawn. Of course, only one person, someone who went to work for google even claims to have seen Balmer do that. I could ask you something similar substituting Hans Reiser in (who was convicted in court, versus being convicted on the internet like Balmer), but I think that particular linux user's behavior is too unpleasant to mention. Where are we going in the next post, are we going to embrace extend extinguish monkey dance the monopoly halloween memo?

How do you propose an OS get signed by a billion different people's master keys?
Click to expand...

You sign it on each individual computer. When the computer is first prepared to be shipped out, the bootloader is signed and then the key is turned over to the user.
 
corrupted223 said:
Nobody spends $200 or $300 dollars on a OS. Consumers that is.
Click to expand...

Uh, yeah, they do, and even if Windows 8 is around $40, Microsoft is only dropping their prices to compete with Apple a little better.
The only difference is they don't have the hardware to gouge end-users with yet; that might end soon though with the advent of Microsoft hardware.

People have no patience with anything, and taking time to invest in learning a new OS that they might never have heard of or know nothing about is not something they will deal with.
Click to expand...
This is the reason people go with OS X, it works out of the box, is easy to learn, easy to use, and is a hell of a lot more secure and powerful on the desktop and portable systems that Windows is.
Also, Apple realized that OS X wasn't useful in the enterprise market or environments, so they dropped hardware and software support, outside of the basic server functions still offered as an app for 10.7 and 10.8.
Microsoft just doesn't realize how much Windows fails at functionality, uptime, or usefulness in enterprise environments.

Though all of you might be arguing that Linux may never be mainstream on the desktop, and that may be true, it will always have a very strong place in enterprise markets and embedded systems.
Windows will never have that kind of reliability or robustness, regardless of how many sales Microsoft makes with that crap they call Server 2008R2.

Hell has frozen over because I officially have more respect for Apple at this point than I do Microsoft.
 
Disposed said:
The estimate is between 900 million and 1.1 billion i was being nice and going with the high end. I dont know where you heard 2 billion besides thats the projected amount by around 2015.
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Yes, I've heard the 1 billion figure a lot lately, but I did hear 2 billion as well. But the number of computers in the world seems a lot harder to gauge than the percentage running an OS. Statistics science tells us that if you have a few thousand random samples, you can extrapolate to millions or more (for instance if 1% of 3000 random visitors to a web site are linux users, you can basically scale that up and it will mirror the linux usage percentage of millions of PC within a small margin of error) but I don't know anything that allows someone to account for all the computers in the world. You'd have to poll every company that sells computers, every computer shop that assembles computers to order, and every home builder, it's not like extrapolating random percentages. Perhaps all the motherboard companies are polled, that could be one effective way I suppose, but even that has problems like how do you know how many of those motherboards are still functional over time and so on? Anyway, the problem is, none of you can account for why every single statistics source is wrong (by an order of magnitude supposedly), from wikipedia to google (before they took their stats down for mysterious reasons..) to net market share, hell even my own personal blogs. Until you can come up with something that explains such a discrepancy on such a massive scale, even from gung-ho open source sources, this arguing is useless. Saying it's a mistake doesn't make sense, google and wikipedia would almost assuredly make 100% they were posting stats of linux that were 10 times lower than reality, at this point there is nothing left except linux is that unpopular.
 
Are you guys really arguing this stuff? :eek: Do you think the discussion will change anyone's opinion on one side or the other?
 
Disposed said:
So a super high end enthusiast configuration has to be brainless for Linux to be a success? What a compelling and well thought out argument. :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

OS X 10.8 comes to mind when I think of a brainless OS, but then again, buying Windows 8 might just be the same, except less secure and more volatile.
 
SkribbelKat said:
Are you guys really arguing this stuff? :eek: Do you think the discussion will change anyone's opinion on one side or the other?
Click to expand...

Not at all, but it's really fun to annoy others while passing the time. :D
Come on, you should join the party!

636x460design_01.jpg

Red Falcon for the Red Party! :eek: :p
 
Red Falcon said:
I'm sorry but you are treating Linux distros as though they run the same permissions as Windows, when they clearly do not.
damicatz is right about everything he has said, and Linux has quite the security due to its root properties, depending on the distro and one's own customizations.
Click to expand...
What root properties? And I know linux does not run with the same permissions and Windows, Windows has ACLs which are far better than linux's 9-bits of security failure. (I know linux can be configured with ACLs these days, but you seem to think linux's old permissions are actually superior.)

Windows doesn't work that way, malware can still get on a Windows system even without "administrative" permissions, can open ports without the user knowing about it (which can't happen on Linux unless one is running solely as root), and can disable/break the firewall and other functions via the crappy registry which is the bane of Windows itself.
Click to expand...

Malware can still get on a linux system without root permissions, so what's your point? And no, malware can not open ports on Windows without the user knowing it, because that requires admin privileges which require user consent. Ditto for 'breaking the firewall' whatever the hell that means. Other functions, well gee, how do I argue against that, as anything can be 'other functions' :rolleyes: Not sure why you think the registry is crappy, well that's wrong I know why, because linux doesn't do it that way. But I'll humor you, what's the 'other' reason?

Do you even know anything about Linux?!
Also, not all Linux distros are the same, and to write malware, one would have to write it for EVERY SINGLE DISTRO as even branches on the big three can operate differently.
Click to expand...

Oh I see, this is the same linux that a game ported once to will run on all/most distros, but not malware..makes sense. :rolleyes:
Maybe you know your shit when it comes to Windows, but you obviously do not when it comes to Linux.
Click to expand...
I don't care to know more about linux than I have to, so that's a good thing.
 
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