Why Apple Products Are Made In China

How little will an American worker work for, and how hard will they bust their ass? Ask amazon with their crappy warehouses. It's pretty cheap and pretty hard.

Lets say it's $8 an hour, and you have a decent amount of churn. That's not even the problem. The problem is that you have $8 an hour, plus payroll taxes, plus SS, plus unemployment insurance, plus any benefits. So now it is significantly more than $8 an hour. Then you have the increased cost of facility construction, increased cost of regulatory compliance for the manufacturing facility and process. All the money you might save on shipping product to it's largest market evaporates when you now have to ship all the components here as we simply do not have the secondary suppliers to domestically source all the bits. You'd simply lose a TON of profit, so it isn't happening. Blaming the American worker is a bit of a red herring though. Once you step outside of chip manufacturing, our high tech manufacturing infrastructure is nearly nonexistent.
 
canna said:
I hope a displaced worker shoots you in the face for your wallet because he doesn't have a job and is desperate to feed his family. There is a social cost involved as well, and you ignore it at your own (or children's) long term expense.
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He does have a point, I'm willing to bet that a lot of Americans wouldn't want to do those jobs even at 10$ an hour, because they think it's "beneath them."
 
Serpent said:
He does have a point, I'm willing to bet that a lot of Americans wouldn't want to do those jobs even at 10$ an hour, because they think it's "beneath them."
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It's not just beneath, but its hard to make ends meet at that income level and still have money and time for fun.

Then again, hoping someone gets shot in the face is pretty silly. ;)
 
employees of its supply chain partners live in 8,000-strong dormitories, ready to be woken up at midnight to start a 12-hour shift making new parts for an iPhone that received last-minute design changes from California.
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If you're fine with your family members, friends and neighbors living and working like indentured servants, yes America can have Apple manufacturing.
 
why should apple move to the US? I thought americans like capitalism. think of the shareholder value that would be lost without cheap labor.
 
Apple has a over a 30% margin and $30 billion in cash.

To say they couldn't hire Americans and pay a living wage is ridiculous.

And to say American workers are "entitled" because they want a living wage is also ridiculous. American productivity has risen enormously in the last 30 years, but almost all of the wealth has gone to the top 1%.
 
Trimlock said:
huh? 35 hours at $10 turns to sweeping minimum wage?

when their free checks runs out they are screwing themselves over in the future unless they can find a solid job. A job at Apple, supplying 35 hours and $10 with ok-benefits would be as solid as they could get, I would even pick up a small part time on the side to qualify for full time benefits on my insurance.
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thats 35 hours for $10. not $10 an hour.....
 
The cost of living is way too high in western countries though. I make more in a week than my cousin in India makes in 2 months, however he CAN live off that amount of money in India, I would be living on the sidewalk and starving to death if I earned that little here in Australia. More than half the money I make goes straight into accommodation, transport and food. So if someone wanted to employ me for the minimum I require to survive, they'd still be paying vastly more than it would cost to employ someone in India.

Governments do pay unemployed bludgers too much, but even if they cut payments back to the bare minimum to survive it still would not come close to motivating people to work for the same amount of money that those in Asian countries are willing to work for simply because you could not survive off it.
 
No way I would do this if I'm Apple. The main difference I see between workers here and other worlds is the lack of desperation. In China, you WANT this job. Here, there is always something else. Then there is the Union. No, no way I would bring it back here.
 
I want to see some of You hardass's get layed off and have to get a job making minimum wage. You know what the poverty line is in this country? over $22,000 a year for a family of 4. that's about $11 an hour. what was the minimum wage again? assume that family of 4 has 2 wage earners at minimum wage, yeah, they get by, with no damn insurance, and 1 paycheck away from losing everything. now explain to me now, why gov. assistance isn't needed.

Some people are deadbeats. most work their asses off to make ends meet. I have been in their shoes before, losing a good paying job with a normal families bills, Mortgage, car, and Kids. easy to be a Tea Party hard ass when your on the right side of the poverty line.
 
Apple does have some stuff made in the US. For instance, their A4 & A5 processors are coming from wafers produced by Samsung in Austin, TX. I think the pay is a bit better than in China, definitely more than $10/hr.
 
darkstarcow said:
Would you work for 28 cents an hour? how about a dollar an hour? hell, even $5 an hour How far do you think that will get you? The problem is, you may be working, but your just prolonging the inevitable .

See my questions above.
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The issue there is the cost of living. How much does a month of groceries cost?

It isn't just going to be limited to your wages, the entire american infrastructure has to change. From grocery stores, to transportation, to other luxuries that you take for granted. Which ironically, meant you'll be switching from iPhones to something more economical (like mid range Android phones). Credit card use will have to be toned down and base everything on debit or cash.

My phone doesn't have a contract because subsidized+contract is actually more expensive for me than going with an unlocked phone+prepaid in the long term. Unlocked, it'll take me a year to save up for an iPhone4, and only about six months for Galaxy Nexus. Imagine what your Smartphone market would be like if everyone went off contract?
 
darkstarcow said:
Would you work for 28 cents an hour? how about a dollar an hour? hell, even $5 an hour How far do you think that will get you? The problem is, you may be working, but your just prolonging the inevitable .

See my questions above.
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the answer is not about if I would work for that, it's if the next guy would work for that and take that money that me and my family need to not starve. That's your answer.
 
So they're saying that Chinese teenagers have far out-gained Americans in skill? Is it really that bad?
 
SkribbelKat said:
It's not just beneath, but its hard to make ends meet at that income level and still have money and time for fun.

Then again, hoping someone gets shot in the face is pretty silly. ;)
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I don't literally hope he get's shot on the face :p.
 
Hard Monkey said:
Apple has a over a 30% margin and $30 billion in cash.

To say they couldn't hire Americans and pay a living wage is ridiculous.

And to say American workers are "entitled" because they want a living wage is also ridiculous. American productivity has risen enormously in the last 30 years, but almost all of the wealth has gone to the top 1%.
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We don't have factories with 300,000 people in them. It'll NEVER happen in America. Ever.
 
This thread (and all threads like it) come down to people saying:
People have a right to a comfortable living wage no matter education or job and have a right to demand it.
People should have to work for their livelihood, and the right to live comfortably isn't a right, its a privaledge you work for.

I'm in the second camp personally, and think apple would be downright stupid to manufacture in the US as its workforce is a joke on a competitive scale.
 
Trimlock said:
Nobody? like the mass of unemployed wouldn't try to get a job of some kind?
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Minimum wage laws. It's not a question of who would take the job. Apple could not legally offer such a job.

The only way that Apple could move to the US is if they were to massively raise the cost of their products. A $1000 iphone perhaps? Even then, there are many US laws that would indirectly add to cost. Look at the example in the cnet article:
...which is why Apple's American employees enjoy comparatively nice perks while employees of its supply chain partners live in 8,000-strong dormitories, ready to be woken up at midnight to start a 12-hour shift making new parts for an iPhone that received last-minute design changes from California.
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Additionally, one of the reasons why Apple can sell their hardware for so relatively cheap is due to volume. If they have to raise the cost of their products above a certain threshold, their sales volume will collapse, thereby adding even more cost on top of the already raised cost due to increased worker wages / benefits.

The real issue here is that China allows their workers to be treated like cattle. This has enabled us first-world countries to enjoy products at an unrealistic price-point, thereby creating unrealistic expectations as to what those products should cost, thereby making it impossible for a "Made in USA" product to have a chance. If we really want to bring back "Made in USA" we'd have to settle for super expensive products that only the rich can afford. Ironically, it is our own greed of everybody wanting to have the best for dirt cheap that has killed "Made in USA."
 
xxEIEIOxx said:
Nobody in this country will work a 35 hour shift for $10. Exactly why they will keep doing what they are doing.
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It's Apple, sheeple would pay to work 35 hour shifts if they could brag to their friends about how they work for Apple over here in the states.

Don't even get me started about how they call their people geniuses in their stores.
 
I think it's funny that people think that those who "live" off unemployment don't also scheme in other ways to maintain a constant flow of income while never actually "working".

Oh and here's another little fun fact. Who works the low level government jobs that do the paperwork for unemployment, WIC, etc etc? Poor folks with family members that don't work. Guess how they make some extra cash on the side?

The lazy people of the world are also some of the best swindlers / schemers.

Mix in a drug addiction and you can get some really ingenious stuff.

p.s. I live in Baltimore. I'd rather go to downtown Baghdad than Wolfe St. at midnight.
 
Make it in China and get $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

Make it in the USA and get $crewed

Greed will bring us to our end point soon enough. There is always hope but not while the assbags on top keep scrabbling to get theirs regardless of the eventual cost in sustainability.

You will reap what you sow. What the fuck they are planting now is anyone's guess....

A great example of this would be monsanto ie the fucking devil his own self.

http://bestmeal.info/monsanto/company-history.shtml
 
A lot of people dont realize China has a history of being good at manufacturing, and in fact I think China for a time, even forgot that they were good at it. But now they are kicking the west's ass again when it comes to innovations in manufacturing.

It doesnt matter how many unemployed willing to work people we have in this country, China is simply out pacing us and not because they have cheap unskilled labor.
 
Cali3350 said:
Unions guarantee far more to assembly workers in the US than they are worth.

Putting part A into part B isn't worth $12 / hour plus benefits but that's what it would cause in the US. The US really has no one to blame but itself for all these circumstances.
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Because people should be expected to sit in a 90 degree factory for 10 hours a day for less?

People forget when comparing wages that what they make over there looks awful to us but is a livable income $12 an hour is not a very livable income over here.

Try surviving on minimum wage here... May as well be making .28 an hour in china... Same living conditions in the end for that kind of pay.
 
Stoly said:
many people would rather NOT work than work for low pay.
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Count me in. 28 cents an hour? I would rather live in the forest as a feral man sustaining myself off berries and roots. I wouldn't even have a family. It would just be me, the rock, the bear, and the clouds. That would be way more enjoyable then wasting my whole life earning just enough money to exhist, so that I can one day watch my kids grow old enough to waste their lives in factories. Whoop ti doo. China can have it.
 
The original article and some others that came out at the time mentioned that the cost of assembling devices in America wouldn't be prohibitive, and Apple could fit it into their profit margins easily. There are plenty of problems to just assembling things in America (finding a few hundred thousand workers for one...) but the biggest problems mentioned in the original article are regarding the whole supply chain.

Just about every single component that goes into the iPhone is made in China. If it isn't, someone in China is willing to subsidize a factory to produce it right next door to a Foxconn assembly plant. Companies in China are pre building massive factories ahead of time, just to try and win business from Apple. American companies (Dow Corning for instance) design and prototype products in America, but then build or use factories in China to actually produce it.

The article mentions when they need to make changes in the glass or case design, they can fire up an extra shift of workers and get the new stuff running in a few days. Once you start producing some components in America, they need to sit for a couple weeks on a boat, and that destroys your ability to get things to market quickly and adapt to any difficulties.

So it's not that Apple doesn't have enough money to pay to assemble things in America. Just for it to make any sense, they would need to manufacture every single component in America. Investing in semiconductor fabs, metal/glass shops, LCDs, is ridiculously expensive, even for Apple. And then they would need to find a few million people to work at those factories. (Which most of the sources quotes suggest would take years in America versus months in China)
 
darkstarcow said:
Would you work for 28 cents an hour? how about a dollar an hour? hell, even $5 an hour How far do you think that will get you? The problem is, you may be working, but your just prolonging the inevitable .



See my questions above.
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28 cents an hour you ask? If everyone else around me in my industry is making even one cent less than I am, fuck yes, I would earn the SHIT out of that 28 cents an hour.

If I am the only schmuck who signed up for 28 cents an hour while everyone else around me is making minimum wage, I'd ask how the fuck I managed to get duped into that deal.

If I was making $1 an hour, and everyone else in my industry was making only 50 cents an hour, or even 80? You bet your ass I'd be working that shit. Wouldn't matter if it was flipping burgers or putting parts onto cars. I'd make some mean motherfucking burgers, or I'd be yelling at people down the line to stop fucking around and keep the line going.
 
Apple could bring back some jobs today and have at least the "assembled in the U.S.A." moniker on their products, even if it's only about assembling a few parts together. But it probably cannot happen without a lot of automation, so it wouldn't create as many jobs as the current Chinese factories. And robots don't have managers either, so that's even less jobs...

Even if they were transferring back the whole shebang, it's really not like you have to create a whole nation-wide industry and technology from scratch, like growing silicon crystals and printing 20 nm dies. The article is totally incorrect, at least regarding Apple. They're just soldering ready-made components on boards and the like. Nothing that can't (shouldn't) be done by robots and a few workers. Of course they'll get these robots from China, but hey, it's a start.

On the other hand, any Chinese job brought back to the U.S. means at least 6 American workers, if they need to rotate through the same rate of suicide as the Foxconn employees... ^-^
 
Apple would be out of their minds to manufacture their products in the US. If Apple's costs go up, costs get passed to the consumer, consumer buys fewer products, Apple's revenues go down, Apple lays off a bunch of employees. This is the way the world works. A company's goal is to generate profits not generate jobs, jobs are merely a side effect of creating profit.
 
Apple has more money then the US government. Apple has this cash because it has very carefully built a system to make its products with the absolute lowest cost and investment.

Yes Apple could build and operate factories in the US, it would then either have to increase prices (ya right) or take a big cut to profits (not gona happen).
 
people keep clamoring about bringing jobs back to the US, like it's their right.

apple would shoot itself in the foot if it did that. Way higher wages would result in way way overpriced apple goods.
People would actually stop buying apple just because it'd be too expensive, and other companies' cheap chinese-made phones would take over.


I think apple should just fly a bunch of unemployed americans over to china, with free chinese buffet everyday.
that way, they can maintain profits, and help americans.
 
teclado said:
Minimum wage laws. It's not a question of who would take the job. Apple could not legally offer such a job.

The only way that Apple could move to the US is if they were to massively raise the cost of their products. A $1000 iphone perhaps? Even then, there are many US laws that would indirectly add to cost. Look at the example in the cnet article:

Additionally, one of the reasons why Apple can sell their hardware for so relatively cheap is due to volume. If they have to raise the cost of their products above a certain threshold, their sales volume will collapse, thereby adding even more cost on top of the already raised cost due to increased worker wages / benefits.

The real issue here is that China allows their workers to be treated like cattle. This has enabled us first-world countries to enjoy products at an unrealistic price-point, thereby creating unrealistic expectations as to what those products should cost, thereby making it impossible for a "Made in USA" product to have a chance. If we really want to bring back "Made in USA" we'd have to settle for super expensive products that only the rich can afford. Ironically, it is our own greed of everybody wanting to have the best for dirt cheap that has killed "Made in USA."
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Sorry, I wasnt argueing about the raised costs and prices on the products, just that those jobs would work in the us and wouldn't be useless.
 
As much as I dont like Apple, for ethical reasons, I think if they were to bring their entire manufacturing process back to states it would be a huge boost to the economy. They would spend more on manufacturing, but sell even more than they do now. I think given the current state of manufacturing, and the economy as a whole a lot of people would love to adopt a product that was made in the USA. They would make up for in volume, any lost in profits due to possibly more expensive labor.
 
8du8 said:
It doesnt matter how many unemployed willing to work people we have in this country, China is simply out pacing us and not because they have cheap unskilled labor.
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No, it's because they have cheap unskilled labor that is willing to live in a building for years, and a government which doesn't enforce labor laws.

I think people here forget that manufacturing is what made America so great during WWII. We were able to make quality products with speed. That's what got us out of the great depression.

If we keep buying Chinese products then we'll go bankrupt, Europe too. Why is Germany doing so well economically? They make shit, and they aren't living where they work either and get paid top dollar. A BMW is made there and it doesn't cost a boat load for one either. A lot of American cars are made in Mexico for cheap labor.
 
If there is one thing I know about it is minimum wage workers in the US. Or rather, I'll not trust a product let alone an expensive iPhone and iPad put together by these disgruntled workers.
 
I did not read through the entire thread so I apologize if this has already been discussed.

But IMO, the bigger challenge in setting up a production facility is not the small number of skilled positions like engineering, IT support or administrative position. Its the large number of operators. The problem is to fill these hundreds of operators position. Not to mention any any regulations regarding their wages, benefits, and so on. When it comes to these group of workers, they have a large impact on the operating cost, and you don't need skilled ones. Anyone can do these jobs so companies will go for the cheapest ones.

Not to say I support these company, but its just how they operate. They will do anything legally possible to cut their operation cost and this is something that will never change.
 
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