Is Plasma TV Dead?

JesterOI said:
I hate LCD for gaming, even on the fastest displays I can still see ghosting or blurring or whatever you want to call the slow pixel response time.

Plasmas are much much better for that.

My only issue with my 60" plasma is it's inability to accept and display a signal that is >60hz eventhough it claims this 600hz subframe refresh (Would it really be so hard for them to all the TV to display a true 120hz refresh rate while hooked up to a PC?).
60hz sucks for me because I can see the screen flashing. The flashing usually goes away for me around 75hz, but I prefer 85hz minimum, 120hz is a dream.
I remember playing quake 3 at true 120hz on my old CRT. It did more for realism than any 3D bullshit or other special effects.

And, when I am talking about 120hz I mean 120hz native. None of this stupid up sampling frame interpretation gimmick BS that LCD uses.
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I wonder about this myself!! Why can't our TVs take it? Our video cards are powerful enough to do it. The TV will supposedly take a 120hz signal from a compatible bluray player with the proper cable (does the cable really matter when it comes to 120hz??) assuming it's a TV that offers real 120hz and not some software frame smoothing gimmick, which I've heard actually do exist...

So why can't we do it from a PC? Why does it gray out those options when it communicates with our video card? HDMI is a two-way thing. Does it display proper native 120hz from your video card on those 120hz 3D displays? Wouldn't it have to??

And if a 120hz 3D LCD can do it, why not a 600hz plasma? Or at the very least, a 3D plasma??? Or can some of them provided you have the right model and the right settings? What's it take to get the right model? And what LCDs can you plug into your PC to really get 120hz?

Argh.... I hate TVs sometimes. I build computers all the time, and when I plug this in here and that in there, I know what I'm going to get. I always thought TVs were even simpler beasts, but I know so much less about them than I thought I did, evidently. :confused:
 
Also, about the ghosting thing - CRT TV's have always had ghosting issues, namely with lightly colored objects moving on a dark screen. Situations like that would leave a smooth trail behind the objects as they move. The effect is more prominent than any LCD I've used. Of course it's only a concern with light-on-dark scenarios. On the topic of CRT's - I cannot stand lines that aren't completely straight. Even the best CRT monitors would display lines that weren't 100% without distortion. LCD and plasma's win in that regard, hands down. CRT's have great colors and black levels - but they are the worst display type in my opinion because of the distortion issue.
 
I love my Panasonic plasma (ST30 series). With wide viewing angles it is great for a family room where I might be sitting anywhere in the room.

I have to admit thought that glass reflections are a big problem to me. Higher end plasmas tend to have an anti-reflection layer on the screen to make it less distracting. (My panny has this.)
 
stop!theradio said:
So is that pretty much THE plasma TV to get?
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Was. They are no longer made. Pioneer exited the market around 2009. Today, Panasonic is pretty much top of the game today, but of course they make a range of products and an uncalibrated demo model in store is a bad way to judge.
 
I think the mention in the article about problems (or conspiracies) in the showroom can be a major issue. The local Fry's has a darkened area away from the brightly lit other sections of the store, but not all stores are set up like that. Plasma TVs displayed in optimal conditions don't have the brightness problems many people viewing it in a brightly lit store may see as unacceptable and reject it outright from consideration.

Also, the limited selections of plasma TVs, due to few manufacturers still in the segment, also just means that it could be seen as a niche product with less competition to improve features or lower prices. When there was a single manufacturer of plasma panels left a couple of years ago, that was the start of the death spiral.
 
stop!theradio said:
The Samsung on the other hand seemed to have a sharper picture (dot pitch?) with more vibrant colors and the blacks were just insanely inky and dark which I love. I also liked the brightness of the LCD. The brightness was high yet the blacks still looked great. It probably would've been a different story if both TV's were displaying only a blank screen side by side, but *shrugs*.
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Samsung makes very good LCD's and very good plasmas as well. I've seen a 63" Samsung plasma in action, properly calibrated, and in a home theater environment. Playing a bluray on it looked absolutely beautiful. Bright colors, dark blacks, very fluid motion. This is a $3,000 set that's about 2 years old. At the time it was Samsung's flagship model. No discernible burn-in on it.

Now regarding burn-in, it is possible to get temporary burn-in, and permanent etching on a plasma. Usually the first 60 hours of use is where it's critical. You don't want to leave the set running on the sports or news channel where there's non-moving elements on the screen, such as status bars, etc, or play the same video game constantly. Widescreen movies with a lot of changing picture elements are the best for the first few hours. Burn-in isn't as much of a problem as it used to be, and there's usually an option to run "wipes" on a lot of screens - shifting grey bars that move across the screen from side to side - to remove temporary burn-in and help prevent etching, but unless you really abuse it the problem isn't as bad as it was 10 years ago.

Is it possible that plasmas can be calibrated in such a way where it looks worse than a badly calibrated LCD? Like - it's known that stores like to bump the brightness on their displays way up - so maybe a plasma with its brightness turned all the way up is capable of looking worse than an LCD with its brightness turned all the way up? Perhaps it affects the blacks negatively on plasmas, making them appear grey?
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Yes. Consider that most stores are interested in selling what is going to make them the highest profit margin. They'll push whatever model gives them the best margin, not necessarily what gives the buyer the best experience. The lighting in the store can make a difference as well. If the TV section is brightly lit, they'll push the colors up on the sets to make them look move vivid, which will tend to grey the blacks. The best way to see what a TV can do is make sure it's in a more dimly lit section and play with the controls. Adjust the brightness, contrast, color levels, etc, and see what you can get. Turn the set off to get a baseline on how the black looks in the store lighting. You can't get any darker than off, and that's your baseline for what the set is actually producing vs any ambient glare from the store environment. Shade the screen by standing in front of the light so you get shadow on it. That might help too. If the store sales personnel aren't willing to let you adjust the set and see what it can and cannot do, don't buy from them. Find a different store that sells the model you like and will let you tinker. Make sure it's running an HDMI signal from a bluray player and an actual bluray movie so you can see what the high-end quality is going to be.

I don't know. I am planning on getting a plasma sometime soon, but I'll have to make sure to view one that I know for a fact has been properly calibrated.
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If you really want a good look at plasmas, check out this site. Lots of information here:
http://plasmatvbuyingguide.com/plasmatv/reviews.html
 
Sounds like everyone has hunkered down in the plasma or LCD camp already. At this point in the industry, plasma and LED has pretty much become equal. The burn in issue is moot. You don't really need to worry about it in the LCD and plasma now has built in anti burn in built in where they shift the image constantly. Power consumption is low on both with plasma having become way more efficient recently but still higher than LEDLCD. The color spectrum on both sets are beyond what the human eye can discern. Plans still had a sight advantage in contrast and LCD still has an advantage in brightness. The creativity of the screens are measured in 7-10 years now.

All the negative press received by plasma was well deserved when the tech was initially introduced. There was a severe problem with burn in and the colors fading after 3 years or so. and the power use and it's second purpose as a furnace all worked to give plasma a bad rap. Also for a long time, plasma would only go up to 720p. When 1080p started taking hold, they lost more market to LCD. Most of the plasma on the market today have corrected these severe problems.

That being said, the PQ of todays LEDLCD televisions will give plasma a run for the money. The one aspect of plasma that clearly blows the LEDLCD out of the water is off axis picture quality. That's pretty much about it. My 55" Samsung had been calibrated and will match any LCD or plasma out there. And please do not judge picture quality by what you see at best buy or any other store. Too many variables such as signal quality and picture adjustments. Best way to judge is audition out on your own home, look at a friends place who has one, or go to a high end shop where they have things set up correctly.
 
Shame. Plasma is still THE top for image quality and black levels, it just can't be beat.

Plasma was the victim of a huge FUD war waged by the LCD industry and big box stores, who wanted to push the MUCH higher-profit-margin and shorter lifespan LCDs over low-margin Plasmas. So sad to see yet another superior technology join HD-DVD and Betamax...
 
stop!theradio said:
I'm curious...why does every plasma TV I've ever seen have blacks that look more grey than black? I read about how great their blacks are but in reality I'm impressed with, say, Samsung's current LED backlit LCD's. The blacks look super inky and wonderful. How come I'm not seeing this with plasma displays? From what i read/hear, plasmas are supposed to have excellent black levels, right? Why is that never the case when I'm looking at a plasma display in person? Is there something I'm missing?
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Because 'black levels' includes the nuances of proper grey tones. Try watching ANY dark movie or tv show on lcd and you immediately see the problem vs the same material on plasma. You're supposed to actually be able to SEE the content.
 
I refuse to accept article #23577 stating that Plasma is dead.

I refuse to pay more for a TV that has a bunch of junk on it, that will ruin the picture if I left it on and still has a less quality of viewing.

Everytime I go over to my step brothers place and he flaunts his 70" peice of crap LCD "ZOMG 240HZ!!" I want to punch him in the go nads purely due to how horrible it is to watch football on his screen.
 
t0ked said:
That being said, the PQ of todays LEDLCD televisions will give plasma a run for the money. The one aspect of plasma that clearly blows the LEDLCD out of the water is off axis picture quality. That's pretty much about it. My 55" Samsung had been calibrated and will match any LCD or plasma out there. And please do not judge picture quality by what you see at best buy or any other store. Too many variables such as signal quality and picture adjustments. Best way to judge is audition out on your own home, look at a friends place who has one, or go to a high end shop where they have things set up correctly.
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Some of the high end models surely do, but not for price. Its crazy how different the prices are with a high end plasma versus a highend LED. Thats just getting to comparable. Its hard to rationalise how people are willing to shell out 60% more bucks for a "comparable" screen.
 
stop!theradio said:
I'm curious...why does every plasma TV I've ever seen have blacks that look more grey than black? I read about how great their blacks are but in reality I'm impressed with, say, Samsung's current LED backlit LCD's. The blacks look super inky and wonderful. How come I'm not seeing this with plasma displays? From what i read/hear, plasmas are supposed to have excellent black levels, right? Why is that never the case when I'm looking at a plasma display in person? Is there something I'm missing?
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go to a tore that has proper lighting to display plasmas. Bright lights that stores have make the phosphers appear washed out. They also disguise lcds poor black levels. In home lighting its much better.
 
The Panasonic ST50 series are the current plasmas of choice, for those of you interested.
 
Paul_Johnson said:
Was. They are no longer made. Pioneer exited the market around 2009. Today, Panasonic is pretty much top of the game today, but of course they make a range of products and an uncalibrated demo model in store is a bad way to judge.
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Phoenix333 said:
Samsung makes very good LCD's and very good plasmas as well. I've seen a 63" Samsung plasma in action, properly calibrated, and in a home theater environment. Playing a bluray on it looked absolutely beautiful. Bright colors, dark blacks, very fluid motion. This is a $3,000 set that's about 2 years old. At the time it was Samsung's flagship model. No discernible burn-in on it.

Now regarding burn-in, it is possible to get temporary burn-in, and permanent etching on a plasma. Usually the first 60 hours of use is where it's critical. You don't want to leave the set running on the sports or news channel where there's non-moving elements on the screen, such as status bars, etc, or play the same video game constantly. Widescreen movies with a lot of changing picture elements are the best for the first few hours. Burn-in isn't as much of a problem as it used to be, and there's usually an option to run "wipes" on a lot of screens - shifting grey bars that move across the screen from side to side - to remove temporary burn-in and help prevent etching, but unless you really abuse it the problem isn't as bad as it was 10 years ago.


Yes. Consider that most stores are interested in selling what is going to make them the highest profit margin. They'll push whatever model gives them the best margin, not necessarily what gives the buyer the best experience. The lighting in the store can make a difference as well. If the TV section is brightly lit, they'll push the colors up on the sets to make them look move vivid, which will tend to grey the blacks. The best way to see what a TV can do is make sure it's in a more dimly lit section and play with the controls. Adjust the brightness, contrast, color levels, etc, and see what you can get. Turn the set off to get a baseline on how the black looks in the store lighting. You can't get any darker than off, and that's your baseline for what the set is actually producing vs any ambient glare from the store environment. Shade the screen by standing in front of the light so you get shadow on it. That might help too. If the store sales personnel aren't willing to let you adjust the set and see what it can and cannot do, don't buy from them. Find a different store that sells the model you like and will let you tinker. Make sure it's running an HDMI signal from a bluray player and an actual bluray movie so you can see what the high-end quality is going to be.



If you really want a good look at plasmas, check out this site. Lots of information here:
http://plasmatvbuyingguide.com/plasmatv/reviews.html
Click to expand...

Q1DM6 said:
Because 'black levels' includes the nuances of proper grey tones. Try watching ANY dark movie or tv show on lcd and you immediately see the problem vs the same material on plasma. You're supposed to actually be able to SEE the content.
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Q1DM6 said:
...They no longer make these sets.
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blackhand1001 said:
go to a tore that has proper lighting to display plasmas. Bright lights that stores have make the phosphers appear washed out. They also disguise lcds poor black levels. In home lighting its much better.
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Thank you all for the information - VERY much appreciated! I'll be sure to do some proper research before picking up a new TV. Cheers :)
 
mashie said:
You got it backwards, the dimly lit areas is the only time you will see how terrible the contrast ratio is for most LCD's and cheap plasmas.
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That does not follow what i wrote and what you quoted. I mentioned brightness, not contrast. There's no dispute that plasma screens have darker black levels.

Since you didn't get it the first time: in a normally lit retail store, the brightness deficiencies of plasma screens next to LCDs will stand out. At a glance a consumer may see that as a negative and disregard how it may look in typical home lighting where it may not be an issue at all.

I hope it's more clear the second time around.
 
Any recommendations for a sub $1k plasma? I'm not sold on 3D (dont have a player capable) and don't need internet capability on the tv itself. So, picture quality is the main point for me I think.
 
shadyqwerty said:
TC-50PU54 from Costco?

http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-50PU54?t=specs

$77~.~~

Compared to a 3 yr old 42S1, it seems...less stunning? I don't know. The color seems perfect. No uber green crayon tint everywhere.
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If you're asking why does your 3 year old panasonic look better than the current line of panasonic plasmas, it's because they started using a lower quality filter in their S (last year) and U (this year) series lines of plasmas in order to differentiate between their low and high ends. Step it up to a higher end panasonic and you get a fantastic image.
 
SonicTron said:
If you're asking why does your 3 year old panasonic look better than the current line of panasonic plasmas, it's because they started using a lower quality filter in their S (last year) and U (this year) series lines of plasmas in order to differentiate between their low and high ends. Step it up to a higher end panasonic and you get a fantastic image.
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Panasonic was hurting themselves a few years ago. There was almost nothing to differentiate from their TV's other then how many HDMI ports it had.
 
LCD technology is less expensive to manufacture resulting in higher returns per sale. Plasma technology has been phased out simply because the margins are not as large as with LCD sales.
 
Ranulfo said:
Any recommendations for a sub $1k plasma? I'm not sold on 3D (dont have a player capable) and don't need internet capability on the tv itself. So, picture quality is the main point for me I think.
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I got a Samsung 500 series plasma a couple of years ago and have been extremely happy with it. Panasonics were all the rage at the time (still is, for that sake), but I chose mine after comparing it with two similarly priced Panas hanging alongside it. All were calibrated and because I know some members of staff at the shop I had the opportunity to compare them after hours, in lighting levels similar to home. All looked good though and I don't think you can go wrong with either Panasonic or Samsung.

This was pre-3D, so I couldn't tell you about that even if you wanted it. As far as internet goes, it seems to me that pretty much every TV sold can be hooked up these days, whether you want it or not.
 
JesterOI said:
I remember playing quake 3 at true 120hz on my old CRT. It did more for realism than any 3D bullshit or other special effects.

And, when I am talking about 120hz I mean 120hz native. None of this stupid up sampling frame interpretation gimmick BS that LCD uses.
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Truth. I was a refresh rate nut back in those days and remember the smoothness and improvement in competitive gameplay was huge. Feels like we've gone backwards and miseducated the masses about refresh rate.
 
mrgulabull said:
Truth. I was a refresh rate nut back in those days and remember the smoothness and improvement in competitive gameplay was huge. Feels like we've gone backwards and miseducated the masses about refresh rate.
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More like being due to the fact that crt response times didn't suck like lcds do.
 
My Panasonic VIERA TC-P50GT25 50-inch 1080p 3D Plasma HDTV, is an unreal picture!

It isn't heavy, and for 3D your really need back blacks, I got in Feb /2011 for $999, and still am tickled to show people the screen. It is way better the any LCDs I looked at, or own, or have owned.

The only negative I see for it and all Plasma's is it does generate quite a bit of heat. but small price to pay for a truly stellar display.

I doubt they will disappear.
 
You can have my Sammy 67" plasma when you pry it from my cold, dead hands...

Seriously, LCD's dont hold a candle to Plasma. I play a lot of xbox on mine (BF3) and I have no burn in, lots of ghosting right after you turn it off, goes away when you watch some tv.
 
j3ff86 said:
Burn in is 100% real with current plasmas... in the first 100 hours of use. The word "Menu" from the OSD is burned into the top left corner of my ST30.
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This is what I'm worried about. For htpc use this is going to be hard to avoid.

For those who doesn't have burn-in issue how do you avoid the problem?
 
I went LED over Plasma for the following three reasons:

1. glossy display means no watching TV in my living room during the day.

2. Dynamic Contrast has been the scorn of many plasma owners when watching movies. You're basically ruining the one thing Plasmas excel at (movie detail and color) to fill a check-box on a spec sheet.

3. At the time I bought my set (early 2011), the top plasma makers (Panasonic and Samsung) has major issues:

Panasonic admitted their high-end Veria plasmas (with the best black levels in the industry) exhibited an accelerated loss in black levels.

Samsung's new thin plasmas at the time had humming problems caused by the power supply embedded in the set.

By-contrast, the biggest problems people experience at the time with LED-backlit LCD were light bleed and (only for some models) the panel lottery. You can imagine which one I bought.
 
Teenk9 said:
This is what I'm worried about. For htpc use this is going to be hard to avoid.

For those who doesn't have burn-in issue how do you avoid the problem?
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My current plasma has 3/4's of the it's hours from my HTPC and there is zero burn in. I had one plasma a while ago, where I played a lot of WoW on it and it had the spell bar burned in haha. :D
 
I went out looking at some plasma TV's today and...I'm simply just not impressed, still, even after all that's been talked about in this thread. I looked at some high end Panasonic and Samsung plasmas and they just do not look that great. Colors are good but any amount of ambient light ruins the picture overall. The blacks are NOT black...even on the models advertised with "deep, rich blacks", the blacks are still just grey compared to LED backlit LCD blacks. The dot pitch is terrible, too, the space between pixels is ugly. After taking advice from this thread and going out and doing research in-person and calibrating displays myself, I can safely say that plasma displays are inferior to good LED backlit LCD TV's, namely the Samsung displays - which look absolutely gorgeous.

Sorry, guys, but I think the whole "plasma is better" argument comes from the fact that plasma is the type of display you went with. I've simply seen nothing that makes plasma better than LCD at this point. Plasma is the inferior product in my opinion and after careful research.
 
stop!theradio said:
Sorry, guys, but I think the whole "plasma is better" argument comes from the fact that plasma is the type of display you went with. I've simply seen nothing that makes plasma better than LCD at this point. Plasma is the inferior product in my opinion and after careful research.
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I agree. People have hunkered into their respective camps. The current crop of LEDLCDs give plasma a run for the money without plasmas deficiencies. Obviously if you buy a cheap brand like Visio or Sceptre or Insignia, you're going to see plasmas greatly out perform it. Buy a higher end Samsung, LG, or Sony LEDLCD and you're getting the best of both worlds. Articles in most of the industry periodicals will agree.
 
stop!theradio said:
I can safely say that plasma displays are inferior to good LED backlit LCD TV's, namely the Samsung displays - which look absolutely gorgeous.

Sorry, guys, but I think the whole "plasma is better" argument comes from the fact that plasma is the type of display you went with. I've simply seen nothing that makes plasma better than LCD at this point. Plasma is the inferior product in my opinion and after careful research.
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I respect your opinion and you probably truly believe what you are typing but this is flat out wrong. I'm not sure where you are looking at these displays, how they have them set up or what type of video they are running when you see them but it takes a seriously high end LED display to match even a mid range plasma in ALL areas, picture quality, refresh rate, contrast ratio, color saturation, and for damn sure black levels. Period.

As a second job (part time), I sell TV's and audio. We have over 140 televisions on display and I stare at them in 12 hr shifts for 3 days a week. I've seen every high end TV, LED & plasma, at the consumer level in the past year. I have to demo them constantly, I use re-encoded blu-ray rips on USB drives for optimal demo material.

Most customers come in asking for LED... the "best LED". I show them the new Samsung D/E 8000 series LEDs.. I demo it with blu-ray... around $3100 for 60". I demo same size high end plasmas.... around $2000 or so depending on manufacturer. To make a long story short, after the demos I usually get "Why are these LEDs so expensive, the plasmas look better..." About 70% of those looking for LEDs wind up buying plasmas after I educate them. Only the "showoffs" still want the sexy thin chrome bezeled LED's, more concerned with the "latest" than with the better picture.
 
From what I've seen, personally, plasmas just don't seem to touch good LED LCD's.The only other thing I can think is that it's simply the ambient lighting which is negatively affecting the picture on the plasma TV's I spent the day looking at. If that is the case, though - that the PQ can be negatively affected THAT badly from ambient lighting - then it's not even worth it to buy one from that fact alone. Real world usage means watching TV during the daytime - and I like some sunlight to enter the living room.
 
I didn't see anyone point this out.

LCDs have the worst viewing angles. The best experience for LCD is directly in the center.

With Plasma, you don't run into those issues. So if you have a weird furniture arrangement, anyone will have a good view.
 
wiseoracle said:
I didn't see anyone point this out.

LCDs have the worst viewing angles. The best experience for LCD is directly in the center.

With Plasma, you don't run into those issues. So if you have a weird furniture arrangement, anyone will have a good view.
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What LCD are you using? Screen viewing angles have gotten much better. Some screens can get to the 178 degree viewing angle.

Plasma TVs have come a long way in the past 4 years. I've had my professionally calibrated 2 years ago and Bluray playback has been just as great as when I first got it calibrated. I baby mine and still use the scrolling bar after each movie that was in anamorphic mode. Probably in a year or so, I'll be on the market for another and move the current 50" Panasonic Viera into the bedroom or my office.
 
wiseoracle said:
I didn't see anyone point this out.

LCDs have the worst viewing angles. The best experience for LCD is directly in the center.

With Plasma, you don't run into those issues. So if you have a weird furniture arrangement, anyone will have a good view.
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My LG LED IPS screen can be viewed from any angle. You get reduced brightness as the angle increases (like any plasma or CRT), but there's no color shift.

MVA and PVA have somewhat more limited viewing angles, but they also present no color shift.

You're thinking of cheap TN screens (which you will get only on the absolute cheapest TVs).
 
Plasma has infinitely better blacks and motion. This fact cannot be disputed. So long as CRT is dead and OLED is invisible, display enthusiasts will keep plasma alive.
 
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