IT Field & Employment

Hello all. Fresh college grad, just started sending out resumes over the weekend. So since I got time I decided to check out the Dice.com forum. Boy oh boy I spent 20 minutes on it and I feel like I just stepped into the Twilight Zone or some kind of nightmare realm. My god that is the most depressing stuff I've read.

I'm talking about the state of IT employment. Is it really THAT bad?? Half the posts on there are about how Indians with H1B visas are taking all the IT jobs and almost no Americans ever get hired. And how your only chance of getting hired is if you get a Masters degree in CS with 5000 years experience and only then will a company let you polish the boots of the janitor on a part time basis

thecrafter said:

Hello all. Fresh college grad, just started sending out resumes over the weekend. So since I got time I decided to check out the Dice.com forum. Boy oh boy I spent 20 minutes on it and I feel like I just stepped into the Twilight Zone or some kind of nightmare realm. My god that is the most depressing stuff I've read.

I'm talking about the state of IT employment. Is it really THAT bad?? Half the posts on there are about how Indians with H1B visas are taking all the IT jobs and almost no Americans ever get hired. And how your only chance of getting hired is if you get a Masters degree in CS with 5000 years experience and only then will a company let you polish the boots of the janitor on a part time basis

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Try spending more than 20 minutes truly researching this topic.

Posting something useful or about yourself, such as the kinds of jobs you would be interested in, would be a great start to having more experienced peers provide insight and research directions.


Edit: Here's a good, recent thread on a similar note.

So, you just began researching the field AFTER you graduated?
Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do NOT collect a paycheck.

Yeah seriously, tell us about yourself. What is your major?

The degree is Network Administration & Security, it's AAS. It was focused on LAN concepts, server admining, desktop support, and of course networking and security among other, less important topics such as evidence recovery and gen eds. I've been with PCs all my life and it's my only skill so I didn't exactly have much choice as to what field to go into, as Magnus was pointing to.

So basically I'm looking into help desk and desktop support roles as entry level and then hoping to eventually become a sys admin. I'm not so much into networking (i.e routers, firewalls, DNS, etc) and more into AD, help desk type of things (not over the phone - in person and hands on), planning upgrades, building servers, installing/configuring hardware and OS, those kinds of things. I'm a Windows only guy. I like Macs, but really enjoy Windows most. Not into Linux/Unix at all although I'm comfortable using them, just not very knowledgeable or interested.

So really just hoping some of you can cheer me up and say it isn't so bad Those people at Dice sure are something else

I've also got a side question if you don't mind answering - is it worth pursuing certifications (MS in particular)?

From personal experience I know most everything when it comes to PCs can be self-taught. And with Windows it is doubly easy, so for pure knowledge I think certs are a complete waste of money, but will it help with landing a job? I've taken a gander at the MS certs and everything outlined in them I learned through my degree, but how will employers see it? Is MCTS/MCITP>A.A.S?

have you ever held any IT or IT-related type of job? Don't shoot for MCITP yet as it won't do you any good. No one will let you administer their server/network just because you have a MCITP title and no real experience (im just assuming, correct me if i'm wrong).

If you want to break into the IT field, aim for CompTia trio (A+/N+/Sec+). It helped me to land my first IT job, but i'm sure others will come in and disagree with me on this

Once you're IN IT, make a goal and stick with it, or else you'll stay at HelpDesk forever, just like some of the people at my old job place.


Dont go to Dice's forum. It sucks.

jin0 said:

have you ever held any IT or IT-related type of job? Don't shoot for MCITP yet as it won't do you any good. No one will let you administer their server/network just because you have a MCITP title and no real experience (im just assuming, correct me if i'm wrong).

If you want to break into the IT field, aim for CompTia trio (A+/N+/Sec+). It helped me to land my first IT job, but i'm sure others will come in and disagree with me on this

Once you're IN IT, make a goal and stick with it, or else you'll stay at HelpDesk forever, just like some of the people at my old job place.


Dont go to Dice's forum. It sucks.

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Bahaha, I like your reply Thanks for the tip and you're right. No real world, professional experience with servers. I did work at my college at a computer lab as I guess you could call it help desk.. although that would put too much glam on it. Pretty much if they had trouble printing, flash drive issues, "how do I get on the Google?" I'd help em but that's the only professional experience. In that case the CompTia trio - is it worthwhile to get if I have this AAS?

Also what do you mean by stick with IT? Don't switch career fields like going from IT to construction and back to IT?

it is about who you know not what you know

thecrafter said:

The degree is Network Administration & Security, it's AAS. It was focused on LAN concepts, server admining, desktop support, and of course networking and security among other, less important topics such as evidence recovery and gen eds. I've been with PCs all my life and it's my only skill so I didn't exactly have much choice as to what field to go into, as Magnus was pointing to.

So basically I'm looking into help desk and desktop support roles as entry level and then hoping to eventually become a sys admin. I'm not so much into networking (i.e routers, firewalls, DNS, etc) and more into AD, help desk type of things (not over the phone - in person and hands on), planning upgrades, building servers, installing/configuring hardware and OS, those kinds of things. I'm a Windows only guy. I like Macs, but really enjoy Windows most. Not into Linux/Unix at all although I'm comfortable using them, just not very knowledgeable or interested.

So really just hoping some of you can cheer me up and say it isn't so bad Those people at Dice sure are something else

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thecrafter said:

I've also got a side question if you don't mind answering - is it worth pursuing certifications (MS in particular)?

From personal experience I know most everything when it comes to PCs can be self-taught. And with Windows it is doubly easy, so for pure knowledge I think certs are a complete waste of money, but will it help with landing a job? I've taken a gander at the MS certs and everything outlined in them I learned through my degree, but how will employers see it? Is MCTS/MCITP>A.A.S?

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This still sounds like you've pursued a career that you feel somewhat competent in (for now, at least), but were long since having second thoughts about your decision to pursue this track. Your research has obviously been limited to any half-cocked poster's comment on Dice.com. What I'm not reading is any significant motivation beyond the looming bills that will need to be paid. So disregard the degrees, certs, etc. -- What do you really want to do? What kind of work will have you feeling enthusiastic when you wake up in the morning? What industries interest you the most?

thecrafter said:

Also what do you mean by stick with IT? Don't switch career fields like going from IT to construction and back to IT?

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He means keep learning, keep keep improving your skillset, and keep increasing your personal worth to a current or prospective company.

umcpgrad said:

it is about who you know not what you know

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LOL.... That is the exception, and certainly not the rule.

no offend but AAS wont help you much. Must people i know have a BS and still struggling to land an IT interview. The key word here is "experience". Go on Craigslist and look around for entry level helpdesk/IT jobs in your area and see what their requirements are. Since you already worked in a computer lab, that will help, but you have to know how to word it in your resume to make it stand out.

Stick with it. When i got my first IT job, I made a goal that i'd be doing helpdesk for the maximum of 2 years and I have to move up to a higher position and get better pay. It took me a little bit over a year before i got a Systems Engineer position.

To be successful in IT, you need to have a passion for it. There were days when I just wanna drop everything and call it quit but i'm glad i didn't do it. LOLz. Dont be like those guys on Dice's forum. hehe

You need to be watching the local job market and gaining experience while you are in school. Nothing you can do about that though, just saying it for others reading this thread. You did do work study in the computer lab that counts for something.

Sounds like there's no reason you can't get an entry level position both with your knowledge and your attitude. As for certificates, only look at entry-level ones for what you already know, A+, Windows 7 support, etc. Certificates are not substitutes for experience they just help back it up.

Since you're interested in help desk, find out who the local recruiting companies are and sign up with them. Most will probably call you to at least talk a little bit about what you are looking for and your experience. Browse the job websites daily but stay away from the forums, it's just people blaming everyone but themselves for their situations. Don't forget Indeed.com either, it's a nice job search engine.

Did you ever talk to any of your professors about employment? I'm in an A.S. program myself and the faculty have a lot of local contacts and solicitations for candidates for different jobs. A lot of their contacts are former students themselves who now work in the IT field.

Take a look at the IT resume thread, too. (Oh, wait I see you just did)

jin0 said:

no offend but AAS wont help you much. Must people i know have a BS and still struggling to land an IT interview. The key word here is "experience". Go on Craigslist and look around for entry level helpdesk/IT jobs in your area and see what their requirements are. Since you already worked in a computer lab, that will help, but you have to know how to word it in your resume to make it stand out.

Stick with it. When i got my first IT job, I made a goal that i'd be doing helpdesk for the maximum of 2 years and I have to move up to a higher position and get better pay. It took me a little bit over a year before i got a Systems Engineer position.

To be successful in IT, you need to have a passion for it. There were days when I just wanna drop everything and call it quit but i'm glad i didn't do it. LOLz. Dont be like those guys on Dice's forum. hehe

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Best advice I've seen so far here.

I'm a college drop-out... I don't even have an Associates Degree. During college I had this epitome: why get a degree when I can run my own business. So I dropped out, and worked for a couple years running my own little computer repair business. It was from-home, I didn't rent an office space, but it paid the bills (sort-of), and got me lots of experience. However, since I'm pretty much a crappy businessman, (I'm too damn nice to people) I got to the point where in order to support myself I needed a job with a steady paycheck, so I went and worked for a non-IT call center where I wasted 5 freaking years of my life getting paid $10 an hour.

So I set myself a new goal. I wanted to get back into IT work but didn't want to have to deal with running a business again. I got a job at a Service Desk where I quickly (within a few weeks) became a team lead. My past experience in computer repair had helped me immensely.

Within a year, I was also the SME, trainer, and tech writer for the team. 5 bosses tried to get me promoted to Knowledge Manager but it was shot down by upper management due to the position being outsourced to India, where they were doing a crappy job of it (hence me being the tech writer; I was basically doing their job).

A year and a half had passed, and I knew there wasn't any farther up to go than Supervisor, which I really didn't want to do, since it's management, not IT. So again I threw out my resume, got some good referrals from friends I'd made that had moved on (a lot of it is who you know), and now I'm working in a NOC as a Data Technician. My goal is to become an Engineer within the next couple years, which I don't feel is unreasonable.

I keep thinking back to the 5 years I wasted in that call center. It is absolutely vital that you set deadlines for yourself for some sort of progression within your career. If you don't you'll become comfortable, you'll stagnate, and you'll become just another faceless drone in the office.

Get an entry level job, work hard, learn hard (even if it's just learning how office politics work) and show management that you're a rising star, that you're destined for more than just working a help desk phone. If a year or two has passed and there isn't anywhere else for you to go within a company or anything new for you to learn, find somewhere else to work; IT is not an industry where you can excel if you aren't constantly developing your abilities.

OP, don't feel discouraged from succeeding in IT. I don't have a degree (except for Network+, which I am now regretting 'cause of the spam I get from CompTIA...) and I've had decent jobs (e.g., helpdesk, desktop support, IT consultant). It really helps to know people: networking is your bread and butter when you're new. As previously adviced, talk to your teachers, and get recruiters/work assistance. Also, work on your certifications to stay current. Since you want to be a System Administrator (if this is really what you want), then start by studying for the Exam 70-680 (TS: Windows 7: Configuration). This will give you a lot of insight on what's current. You can progress to being a MCITP for Server Administration in Window Server 2008 R2, which you can put in your "professional roadmap" to being what you ultimately want in IT.

I have to second the suggestion to set a clear and reasonable goal, both for position and salary.

I wouldn't go too far out, but you need to have a couple of steps planned out.

Thanks to all, you've put my mind at ease and the suggestions are great.

I have to wonder though, how do you have time to go to interviews when looking to step up your game when you are already working a 9-5 job? I don't think it's very feasible or smart to take a day off for interviews. Couple of those in a row and you'd start to look bad to your boss, no?

thecrafter said:

Thanks to all, you've put my mind at ease and the suggestions are great.

I have to wonder though, how do you have time to go to interviews when looking to step up your game when you are already working a 9-5 job? I don't think it's very feasible or smart to take a day off for interviews. Couple of those in a row and you'd start to look bad to your boss, no?

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Honestly, I just try to set up vacation days for it. Though I've got a few years before I'll be going to any interviews now that I'm where I'm happy, and learning buttloads of new stuff every day.

I'm with those supporting experience over certification. There are some IT fields that will be far easier to penetrate with certs though (Ciscoland and VMware especially). I went to college, took only classes I cared to take (many of which were technology) but never saw a counselor and never bothered to finish my degree. It hasn't hurt me, and at this point will not. The others who mentioned "who you know" are also right. It helps a LOT to meet people and have them like you previous to applying. A recommendation goes a long ways.

That said, my department just hired a Jr Sys Admin and we went for personality and train-ability over certs, education, or even experience. We chose the person we thought would fit in the team, could learn to be great, and had drive to do it, not the "Facebook experts", photoshop junkies, or help desk veterans who still have no people skills.

Building trust, experience, and connections - IT isn't any different then any other business industry.

Start small, make contacts, learn as much as you can, show others you can make good decisions, and grow from their. If you can't see past 3 to 5 years where you are, then that is sign you are ready to move along.

Story time, i'd like to show an example of how you can start with nothing, and keep pushing in the right direction. Hopefully this gives you some ideas.

When I started my first job in IT, I had been working at an auto parts store, after graduating with a law degree. I had built a relationship with the owner of a computer store next door, convinced him to take a risk on me for $9/hr. After the first year I was the store manager, but also had built up a list of contacts and was offered a job at a small company of 35 people. Looking after everything from laptops, servers, phones, anything I could get my hands on. 3 years it we were bought out by another company, and 2 years after that I was running the entire IT shop for that organization of around 400 users. Growth began stagnant, so I fired some resumes out, had 100% interview rate and 2 job offers. 3 Years later, I took over the job of the person that hired me, and am managing a team of analysts at an organization with 10's of thousands of users... haven't planned out the next step yet.

My biggest advice I give out is start small, its always easy to be a shining big fish in a small pond. People that want to manage a server farm and millions of dollars of hardware need to work up to it, and my experience is that you can't learn those skills working on a help desk in a massive company where you are just a number. Find something small and interesting, dig in, and keep working hard and you will get where you want to go. Always know or look like you know what you are talking about. If someone says something to you you've never heard of, go learn it, Google it, read up and elevate your self.

you have to play the game, not what you do but show what you can do to the big fishes

Jobs are out there, its not just the IT field that is hurting right now.

I just hired an technical ops manager for our company, interviewed about a bazillion people to find him though lol

try looking for job in something other then IT where you will be the IT person for a company instead of working for an IT company. i work for a wireless company and my troubleshooting/networking/hardware background let me bounce around to any job position. one day i am sitting testing hardware. one day i am meeting with reps from vendors trying to sell us stuff, the next i am hanging off a tower installing stuff.

i had an issue with my air conditioning unit. when the guy got there i told him what i did to test it and what i thought was wrong and he just straight up offered me a job. we later talked he graduated with CS degree while working for heating and cooling and started his own company doing heating and cooling. he was just impressed how i described my troubleshooting. if you are good at IT you can be good at tons of other things


i doubt i will ever work for a IT company again. i will stick to other industries and be the IT guy.

Sadly with an AAS its not going to get you much. At most places, to even get past HR you need a BA/BS and then you need experience. IT field is hiring as I just landed a Sys Admin job with UCI Medical Center here in So Cal. Where will depend on location.

One thing that will help you during your IT career is to realize you may not always get to work with the exact technology you want to. You have to have an open mind and learn about different things and broaden your horizons.

Learn everything, go out and practice new things. Obviously keep learning and studying things that really interest you, but it is critical not to pen yourself into one discipline.


I've always cert'ed in what I really like, but enthusiastically worked on and learned things that don't interest me quite as much, and I've done relatively well so far.

nevermind

Magnus said:

So, you just began researching the field AFTER you graduated?
Go directly to jail, do not pass go, do NOT collect a paycheck.

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Hahaha this. I literally started applying to jobs 4 months before I walked in graduation and I'm now out of school with a job. If your serious about finding work then you need to put forth far more directed efforts.

FerraraZ said:

Hahaha this. I literally started applying to jobs 4 months before I walked in graduation and I'm now out of school with a job. If your serious about finding work then you need to put forth far more directed efforts.

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Hrmm I was in about 10 interviews while I was still in school, but guess what happened after they asked me what times and days I'm available for work... they gave me a pissed off look due to my school schedule and never called back.

That reply you quoted is stupid. Making assumptions like he was is uncalled for. Also it didn't matter what state the IT job market is/was in the end because PCs are the only skill I have. It wouldn't have mattered if nursing has 100% hire rate for entry and mid-level positions, I wouldn't have studied nursing. I didn't pick my career based on "what's hot" which sounds like something he is doing if researching the job market before studying is that paramount to him. I studied for IT because it is my 'calling' so to speak

I graduated with an associates degree in September, and after a lot of searching which began while I was still in school, I got my current job which I've been at for nearly 2 months. It's basic, entry-level work: phone-based end-user support, PC and printer deployment, network troubleshooting, hardware installation and troubleshooting, remote configuration and maintenance, etc. I get to work with a combination or Windows, Linux, and some light VMWare. It doesn't pay a whole lot, but I'm only interested in getting paid experience for now. Better pay will come once I've got enough experience.

A lot of people told me that it's better to have a bachelor's degree, but like myself, I'm assuming that you can't afford not to work for another 1-2 years to get one while not getting any experience, so you're definitely doing the right thing by trying to get into the field right now. Besides, a bachelor's degree overqualifies you for about 95% of the entry-level IT jobs out there, and even if you went back and got one, you'd still need the experience to go with it or else you'd just find yourself out in the cold with even more student loan debt.

Try to get in touch with some local staffing agencies. Get about 6-7 of them that you work with. They'll probably have some small projects such as deployments and installations that might only last 2-4 weeks, and for projects like that, they usually don't even look at your resume, they just send you out. Once you've been doing that for about 6 months, you should have some better luck with those other positions you've been applying for. Another thing you can do is to research some smaller, start up companies that might not really have an IT department, so to speak, and offer your services for lower pay. They might be more willing to take you on.

Hey Nassirbannipal I really like your last advice. Wish I knew some or knew of ways to find out of new ones in my area though =/ No idea how to go about that

thecrafter said:

Hey Nassirbannipal I really like your last advice. Wish I knew some or knew of ways to find out of new ones in my area though =/ No idea how to go about that

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Go for a walk or a drive around your city. Ask some of the instructors and staff at your school if they know anyone. Instructors usually know a few people in the industry. They might have some projects coming up, and if necessary, offer to help out for free. Anything you can do to get your foot in the door.

Got a job First interview I went to, couldn't ask for better benefits and over-all responsibilities for an entry level position. So happy!

I wrote a few paragraphs explaining more but I'm sure nobody really cares and it feels like I'm going to jinx myself

Chiropractic is a scam, so I'm not sure what that's worth. But grats on the gig! What will be your next step after this position? While it's a relief to have a job, it's extremely important to keep growing and have a plan.

Why do you think you were qualified when the master's degree candidates weren't? Are you sure you didn't price yourself too low?

mikeblas said:

Chiropractic is a scam, so I'm not sure what that's worth. But grats on the gig! What will be your next step after this position? While it's a relief to have a job, it's extremely important to keep growing and have a plan.

Why do you think you were qualified when the master's degree candidates weren't? Are you sure you didn't price yourself too low?

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edited details I don't feel comfortable disclosing

I didn't price myself too low because the pay rate was advertised and not negotiable (it's actually ~15% higher than similar positions around my area so I'm very happy).

I see you read my pre-edit post. Well I think that the other candidates were over-qualified and the HR knew it wouldn't be wise to take them on for this entry level position because they would just keep looking for more gainful employment even if hired, and would just quit as soon as they got a higher paying job.

Congrats.

Working in IT for ~10-12 years, degrees don't really matter much at all. It's ambition, intelligence, experience and who you know that get you ahead - not necessarily in that order.

jatwell said:

Congrats.

Working in IT for ~10-12 years, degrees don't really matter much at all. It's ambition, intelligence, experience and who you know that get you ahead - not necessarily in that order.

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No..but they'll get you in the door and also help with promotions inside the company later. Getting in IT today is NOT getting in IT 10 or 12 years ago. Very different world.

NetJunkie said:

No..but they'll get you in the door and also help with promotions inside the company later. Getting in IT today is NOT getting in IT 10 or 12 years ago. Very different world.

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Truth. When I finished my ccent, my now boss pulled me off desktop to pretty much start doing networking. I've been grateful ever since as hes taught me a lot.

Fair enough, I'm sure it's much tougher to break in to this tough job market.

Well that's certificates. What do you think of actual college/uni degrees? Are they important? Everything I read said otherwise when it comes to IT. Plus in most job postings I see either no degree is required, and if required it says "associates degree [or bachelor's] or equivalent work experience"

I'll never be able to do a bachelor's. Just don't have the patience or "care" in me for all the gen eds and just plain dislike formal/institutional education to begin with. Hopefully I'm not screwed for that

thecrafter said:

Hrmm I was in about 10 interviews while I was still in school, but guess what happened after they asked me what times and days I'm available for work... they gave me a pissed off look due to my school schedule and never called back.

That reply you quoted is stupid. Making assumptions like he was is uncalled for. Also it didn't matter what state the IT job market is/was in the end because PCs are the only skill I have. It wouldn't have mattered if nursing has 100% hire rate for entry and mid-level positions, I wouldn't have studied nursing. I didn't pick my career based on "what's hot" which sounds like something he is doing if researching the job market before studying is that paramount to him. I studied for IT because it is my 'calling' so to speak

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10 interviews, 10? try a hundred and we'll talk. Any company that walks away knowing you are currently in school, isn't worth working for. Or, did you simply reply to current help wanted ads without telling them up front that you are in school?

In either case, you simply haven't done the work and investigated the industry you're trying to work in. Did you think having a degree would instantly line up employers vying to employ you? If so, you bought in to the whole lie that educators, parents and, society have been telling 'youts' for generations, ie, the only way to get ahead, learn and succeed is to go to college.

Guess what? They all lied to you. Now what are you going to do? That's right, do the homework, it's up to you not, the degree, certifications or, inherent talent. The purpose of college is NOT to get you a job. The purpose of college is to teach you to think, critically analyze and give you a broader perspective to enable you to do the first two.

You're obnoxious. Put you on ignore list and not even going to bother replying to your ridiculous posts. Sounds like you have some mental issues