120Mhz LCD displays

RangerXML

RangerXML

Supreme [H]ardness
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Are they just gimmicks or are they actual 120Hz refresh displays? And are we going to see them on computer LCDs (smaller than 24")?

I have some very specific reasons to ask, mainly I haven't been able to last as long behind an LCD screen as I use to behind a traditional CRT (headaches). I always had CRTs set to about 75 or 85Hz and noticed I had a lot less headaches. When I switched to LCDs I thought that the 60Hz was a non issue since they worked different from CRTs, but it doesn't feel like it. I stuck with LCD because of room and my table wasn't about to break, but now having seen 120Hz LCD TVs 37"+, I was wondering if we would see something similar for computers?

Or is this just a fools hope?
 
its 120Hz, not 120MHz: you're off by 10e6.

i personally think it has value. movies, which play at 24fps, look considerably better than on a lot of LCD's. most importantly to me though, 120Hz permits 3d gaming with shutter glasses.

both of these are really niche. i dont see any other value. if you dont see sufficient value in either of these, its not worth it.
 
RangerXML said:
..., but now having seen 120Mhz LCD TVs 37"+, I was wondering if we would see something similar for computers?

Or is this just a fools hope?
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Yes they will offer it, just takes some time. Only high end LCD hdtvs offer it so it takes some time for it to show up in cheaper models.
 
I doubt the 120Hz LCD will help you with you eyestrain problem. The reason for going to 120Hz is so they can display both 30Hz (broadcast TV) and 24Hz (film, mostly from bluray sources) content on the display without dealing with synch issues. I agree we will see it in computer targeted LCD monitors eventually.

What you might find helps is going to an LED backlit display. Assuming you have really sensitive eyes the florescent backlight may be what bugs them. If you have florescent lights in the same room this will create/worsen the problem due to interference patterns. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flicker_fusion_threshold get down to the nuts and bolts of it. I also find panels with terrible viewing angles to produce eye strain, like my work laptop. I can stare at my Dell 2005FPW for hours without strain though. I too had to have my CRTs at 85+Hz to not get headaches.

Also, when was the last time you had your eyes checked? :)
 
LOL, I get my eyes checked pretty regularly (my vision covers a pair a year). These things use florescent backlid LCD...ouch. I'll be looking for one with LED backlid LCD ASAP.

Sorry for the 120Mhz vs Hz thing, lol.
 
Last I heard, LCD HDTVs do not accept 120Hz signals. They accept 60Hz and lower rate sources and then internally synthesize new additional frames to get to 120Hz to reduce motion blur. But it's kind of a fake way to tackle the problem, and some folks don't like the resultant look...

As TroubleMagnet indicates, some of these TVs also offer repeating of the original frames to get to 120Hz with that rate being a common ground for video and film...
 
SH1 said:
Last I heard, LCD HDTVs do not accept 120Hz signals. They accept 60Hz and lower rate sources and then internally synthesize new additional frames to get to 120Hz to reduce motion blur. But it's kind of a fake way to tackle the problem, and some folks don't like the resultant look...

As TroubleMagnet indicates, some of these TVs also offer repeating of the original frames to get to 120Hz with that rate being a common ground for video and film...
Click to expand...

120Hz bugs my eyes sometimes. I'd say 50% of the TVs look weird. It looks more real but the movements make my eyes feel weird. I dunno if that makes sense, but I'd bank on them all using black frame insertion.
 
SH1 said:
Last I heard, LCD HDTVs do not accept 120Hz signals. They accept 60Hz and lower rate sources and then internally synthesize new additional frames to get to 120Hz to reduce motion blur. But it's kind of a fake way to tackle the problem, and some folks don't like the resultant look...

As TroubleMagnet indicates, some of these TVs also offer repeating of the original frames to get to 120Hz with that rate being a common ground for video and film...
Click to expand...

To my knowledge, they don't accept 120hz signals because there is no content today that is being shot at 120 fps.

___

For me, I don't have a problem with 120hz in theory but what I do have a problem is the processing that comes with the tech. Some people love it but to me, it makes everything look unrealistic and overly smoothed. You can turn off the anti-judder processing but that's part of what you're paying for when you go 120 so it almost defeats the point of buying a 120hz set in the first place. The simple answer is to avoid it all together and go plasma! JK of course but plasma does circumvent the issue since on the whole, motion-blur and judder aren't problems on Plasmas. I believe I've read that there are 120hz plasmas on the horizon but to me it's confusing and more of a marketting gimmick since the tech doesn't really need it.
 
I for one can't wait for 120Hz processing to come to PC monitors.

Currently when I hook up my PCs to my HDTV the 120Hz is blocked out.

I agree that 120Hz is a hit or miss. There were times I've noticed on a Sony XBR4, where the motion on screen got too intense for the processors to handle and I get screen lag for like a millisecond. So there's the disadvantage for me.

I do watch with and without 120Hz, and most 120Hz TVs allow you to adjust the strength of the processing. If you turn the settings to low, for films I feel it enhances the film and doesn't overly smooth things. If you're watching DVD9s that have been shrunken down to DVD5s and have transcoded for better image quality vs. framerate, then most likely framedata has been removed. 120Hz helps in situations like this. It makes low framerate material seem more solid on screen with less flicker.
 
I have seen 120Hz TV next to a non-120 and the difference to me is quite noticable. The 120 is sharper.
 
Seated said:
I have seen 120Hz TV next to a non-120 and the difference to me is quite noticable. The 120 is sharper.
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Don't forget that other article about shady business practices, like at BB.
 
extra processing for the 120hz adds input lag. for FPS and twitch gaming it can be very noticeable. if you do any gaming, i'd recommend either getting a good 60hz display or one that lets you completely disable 120hz processing (and all other image processing).

like some have said, the 120hz is basically 50/50 marketing gimmick/actual benefit. sometimes it smooths out video and sometimes it actually looks worse. i dont think it's a setting any avid A/V or gamer can set and forget, it's definitely a setting many people will need to toggle if they want to get the best experience at all times.
 
I'd have to see the set myself but I would be very surprised if they 120Hz sets are the ones lagging due to computation lag. What they should be doing is simply repeating the same frame a few times depending on the input data rate (4 for 24Hz, 3 for 30Hz, 2 for 60Hz and one for one for 120Hz) which is DEAD SIMPLE. Leaving the same image up on an LCD takes zero computing power, you just keep the same value. I'd be surprised if they insert black frames as that would be harder than just leaving the last frame there. Most of the judder and delay problems I have noticed have been on the lower frequency ones that have to so some computing to keep the frames in synch and keep the judder to a minimum when not the input is not coming in at their native display rate. If you are seeing problems with a 120Hz set I suspect it might be good old response time ghosting. It's entirely possible to make the input path and driving circuits run at 120Hz but still have the actual LCD not be able to respond that fast. I also bet they 'forget' to put their response times on their sets, just like the >16ms LCD monitors did back in the day, even though they accepted 60Hz inputs they knew they couldn't respond that fast.

Note there will be some florescent backlights that are better than others since it IS possible to jack the rate way up so it's no longer a problem, just like running a CRT at 85Hz instead of 60Hz. LED backlights are coming but its a fairly slow process, especially for the larger LCD displays.
 
TroubleMagnet said:
I'd have to see the set myself but I would be very surprised if they 120Hz sets are the ones lagging due to computation lag. What they should be doing is simply repeating the same frame a few times depending on the input data rate (4 for 24Hz, 3 for 30Hz, 2 for 60Hz and one for one for 120Hz) which is DEAD SIMPLE. Leaving the same image up on an LCD takes zero computing power, you just keep the same value. I'd be surprised if they insert black frames as that would be harder than just leaving the last frame there. Most of the judder and delay problems I have noticed have been on the lower frequency ones that have to so some computing to keep the frames in synch and keep the judder to a minimum when not the input is not coming in at their native display rate. If you are seeing problems with a 120Hz set I suspect it might be good old response time ghosting. It's entirely possible to make the input path and driving circuits run at 120Hz but still have the actual LCD not be able to respond that fast. I also bet they 'forget' to put their response times on their sets, just like the >16ms LCD monitors did back in the day, even though they accepted 60Hz inputs they knew they couldn't respond that fast.

Note there will be some florescent backlights that are better than others since it IS possible to jack the rate way up so it's no longer a problem, just like running a CRT at 85Hz instead of 60Hz. LED backlights are coming but its a fairly slow process, especially for the larger LCD displays.
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There are modes which do as you describe above. However, those don't provide the motion resolution increase that is the 120Hz LCD's main selling point...
 
I don't think its the fault of the of the monitors locking 120Hz, but the video cards not supporting it for that type of display (MAYBE).
 
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