why are people still complaining about price of PS3?

Q: Why are people still complaining about price of PS3?


A: Because it's $600!!!!!
 
Ruffy said:
As for the PS3 You get a new system that will be in use for years to come...
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Same with the Xbox360...

Ruffy said:
...plays a future dvd format...
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If only we knew which one will prevail. Many people who aren't ready to pick a side yet don't like the idea of Sony picking for them, along with the added cost that requires.

Ruffy said:
...play games at HD resolutions, and act as a part computer/media hub for $500-600.
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Same with the Xbox360, except it's $200 cheaper ($300 vs $500 and $400 vs $600)

Ruffy said:
...It ends up being either equal or $100 more(but with more functionality) than a Xbox360+hddvd setup.
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No, it's $200 more with more functionality (i.e. HD movies) or the same price and the same functionality. But at least with the Xbox360 you are given a choice. Many people without HDTVs own Xbox360s, so they have no need to spend $200 on an HD-DVD drive. Many people without HDTVs will buy PS3s, but they have no choice about being saddled with a Blu-Ray player that is adding cost to their purchase for little or no added benefit.

$600 is expensive for a game console, no matter how you slice it.
 
I like how everyone is always spouting "ZOMG CHOICE IS ALWAYS BETTAR!111"

It's not.

If you were a console company and you wanted developers to develop games that use a certain technology, you don't make it an optional component.

When the time comes that games take up multiple DVDs (which some can already anyway), guess how many Xbox developers will put a HD-DVD version of its game out on the shelves instead of multiple DVDs? None. Similarly developers will be more inclined to cut corners to get games to fit in a limited space rather than add an extra disc. This is especially true for international games and extra features. Ever wanted dual audio tracks on your game? Not going to happen on a single DVD for the vast majority of games.

Add-ons for consoles have a very, very low success rate. If you want games that leverage a certain feature or technology you better damn well make it a core feature. If you must have an add-on and you want it to be successful it better damn well be cheap. The only successful add-ons in console history have been under $50.

Best way to stunt growth of next gen disc formats is to let the consumer decide. More often then not, the consumer will always choose the tried and true cheap choice rather than something new. Just look at how long broadband penetration took in the US. There are still people out there on dial up with an archaic mindset.

Anyone complain about how Intel kept pushing next gen memory too fast at an expense? You know how much faster the industry and consumers adopted next-gen memory because of this? Yes, there are bad choices like RDRAM (which actually wouldn't have been bad if RAMBUS didn't have their heads up their collective asses; the technology was just fine), but there were even more good decisions, like DDR and DDR2.

Whether Sony does it right or not is something time will tell, but if they didn't make a move, who would? Consumers most assuredly will not. The HD-DVD camp is likewise trying to make headway up a waterfall with a paddle at the rate they're going.
 
The_Law said:
I just wanted to point out that you can do that with the 360 now as well. ;)

I agree that PS3 bashing seems to be a little out of control. I think we just need to wait and see. It may turn out that BR totally sucks and Sony utterly fails, but BR could just as easily be a huge success and Sony could have another good generation of console gaming.

The Wii seems to be growing on me the most though. For some reason it just seems fun. I guess time will tell on that too. I can't wait until things start getting fired up here in a couple months. :)
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Yeah but it doesn't have HDMI which the lower end PS3 just announced that it will have it..
 
Neurofreeze said:
I like how everyone is always spouting "ZOMG CHOICE IS ALWAYS BETTAR!111"

It's not.

If you were a console company and you wanted developers to develop games that use a certain technology, you don't make it an optional component.

When the time comes that games take up multiple DVDs (which some can already anyway), guess how many Xbox developers will put a HD-DVD version of its game out on the shelves instead of multiple DVDs? None. Similarly developers will be more inclined to cut corners to get games to fit in a limited space rather than add an extra disc. This is especially true for international games and extra features. Ever wanted dual audio tracks on your game? Not going to happen on a single DVD for the vast majority of games.
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Actually I don't want dual audio tracks. I pretty much don't give a damn about that. And HD DVD is only going to be for movies. Blu-ray's focus is movies. PS3 is NOT what home theatre enthusiasts are looking for when it comes to watching movies.

Add-ons for consoles have a very, very low success rate. If you want games that leverage a certain feature or technology you better damn well make it a core feature. If you must have an add-on and you want it to be successful it better damn well be cheap. The only successful add-ons in console history have been under $50.
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You're talking about gaming. Add ons for gaming haven't been typically good (although I think Sega CD did good) This is only for movies. People know this. People know that HD DVD and Blu-rays intent isn't advance gaming.
Best way to stunt growth of next gen disc formats is to let the consumer decide. More often then not, the consumer will always choose the tried and true cheap choice rather than something new. Just look at how long broadband penetration took in the US. There are still people out there on dial up with an archaic mindset.
.........
Whether Sony does it right or not is something time will tell, but if they didn't make a move, who would? Consumers most assuredly will not. The HD-DVD camp is likewise trying to make headway up a waterfall with a paddle at the rate they're going
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Do you know that HD dvds typically have a flip side that is the regular dvd movie version of it? So I have this collection of DVDS that on the flip side I only need a HD dvd..and I know tried and true is HD by name.....hmmmmm. I think I'd want a HD DVD player.
 
Hulk said:
Q: Why are people still complaining about price of PS3?


A: Because it's $600!!!!!
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But it's not $600... It's $100 more than the xbox premium... With the lower end ps3 model you still get a hard drive, hdmi, blueray... I don't know what the deal is... If people payed $400 for their xbox 360, people will pay $100 more for ps3 with blueray...
 
JethroXP said:
Same with the Xbox360...



If only we knew which one will prevail. Many people who aren't ready to pick a side yet don't like the idea of Sony picking for them, along with the added cost that requires.



Same with the Xbox360, except it's $200 cheaper ($300 vs $500 and $400 vs $600)



No, it's $200 more with more functionality (i.e. HD movies) or the same price and the same functionality. But at least with the Xbox360 you are given a choice. Many people without HDTVs own Xbox360s, so they have no need to spend $200 on an HD-DVD drive. Many people without HDTVs will buy PS3s, but they have no choice about being saddled with a Blu-Ray player that is adding cost to their purchase for little or no added benefit.

$600 is expensive for a game console, no matter how you slice it.
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Your reasoning is so famboism I don't know where to begin...

With a $300 xbox you can't save a game... You can't play your old xbox titles... This is a crippled system unless you buy a memory stick or the hard drive kit...

Now with the xbox premium you get a hard drive for $400...

With the lower end PS3 model you're getting more than what an xbox premium is giving you... You get a hard drive, Blue ray, HDMI, and everything you need to play for $500....

Basically it comes down to $100... But with ps3 you get HDMI and Blueray... over xbox 360 premium...
 
Marvelous said:
But it's not $600... It's $100 more than the xbox premium... With the lower end ps3 model you still get a hard drive, hdmi, blueray... I don't know what the deal is... If people payed $400 for their xbox 360, people will pay $100 more for ps3 with blueray...
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It could have been $100 less without the blu-ray movie player.

Personally I don't care. Just playing devil's advocate. I'm buying one if I see it. But I don't think their business strategy this time is going to help keep them king of the hill.
 
Marvelous said:
If people payed $400 for their xbox 360, people will pay $100 more for ps3 with blueray...
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1: You'll be amazed what sticker shock will do to people. Perception = Reality.
2: You don't break mass market with prices like that. Plus, as soon as they're ready to drop the price MS and Nintendo (though less important for Nintendo) can hammer them with similar price drops.
3: How many people actually want HDMI and blu-ray? The hardcore, maybe. Average joe? Probably doesn't give a sh*t and just wants to play games.

* Usual disclaimer, buying all three at one point or another. You know, I think I'll just add that to my sig.
 
Psychotext said:
1: You'll be amazed what sticker shock will do to people. Perception = Reality.
2: You don't break mass market with prices like that. Plus, as soon as they're ready to drop the price MS and Nintendo (though less important for Nintendo) can hammer them with similar price drops.
3: How many people actually want HDMI and blu-ray? The hardcore, maybe. Average joe? Probably doesn't give a sh*t and just wants to play games.

* Usual disclaimer, buying all three at one point or another. You know, I think I'll just add that to my sig.
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What is $100 to a lot of people now a days? Drink at the bar with your friends and have some food?

I don't think $100 will make a huge difference to what people can afford... If they really wanted it... People will buy regardless...
 
Psychotext said:
3: How many people actually want HDMI and blu-ray? The hardcore, maybe. Average joe? Probably doesn't give a sh*t and just wants to play games.

* Usual disclaimer, buying all three at one point or another. You know, I think I'll just add that to my sig.
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Think of it this way, i have seen a soccer mom buy a Treo 700W for $400 because it had that "PDA thingie" and not know the basics on how to use it.

People who don't need it will still buy it, thats the society we live in. They just think it is "cool" there for they will buy.
 
By the way, I'd venture a guess that there will be very few of the $500 SKU shipped. Microsoft sent a ratio of 3:1 Premiums to Cores. I doubt Sony will send very many because that version costs them the most money.
 
Marvelous said:
illaborate your reasonings instead of pointless PR talk..
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HAhaha! OMG Do you read English? Did you not read what I said?
So you DISAGREE that the PS3 is $600?

You just negated every comment you had.
 
LeviathanZERO said:
HAhaha! OMG Do you read English? Did you not read what I said?
So you DISAGREE that the PS3 is $600?

You just negated every comment you had.
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The PS3 is $500 there is a $600 dollar version available as well.
 
VoodooChi|d said:
The PS3 is $500 there is a $600 dollar version available as well.
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Please enlighten me more. I would have never known that without you telling me. :rolleyes:
No shit theres a $500 model. 1. its still expensive. 2. its still missing shit. 3. SONY wants you to buy the $600. (80% of shipments are the $600.)

$500, $600. $300, $400. Potato. Pota toe.
You guys are missing the clear fact that most people are avoiding the PS3 for one reason only. IT IS $600. Fuck BlueRay or Bluetooth or Tilt sensor or !!!! stimulator, If you're trying to sell me a Video Game console at $600, you're an idiot. Thats it and nothing more.

You !!!!!!s can sit here and fight all day, but the people with paychecks are the ones that make history. And those people dont look at Video Game consoles that cost $600.

Got any friends with a NEO GEO?
 
some people should join a debate team. i wanna say ruffy's post hit the nail on the head its gonna sell its gonna be good dont hate it cause ur to cheap
 
I got a better question...why are people complaining about people complaining about the price? If you want one, feel free to be one of the 10 people who will buy a PS3.

There are more problems with teh PS3 than just the price anyways. All those crashing problems, the price, being force-fed propriatary sony products at a $300 markup...dont forget all those developers who just recently cancelled their PS3 games. The stocks are going down...

The best part is that in the lower end model, they still shove an expensive blu-ray drive down your throat, but it wont play blu-ray discs!! whats with that shit? why couldnt they pull an xbox and make the HD capability an optional upgrade? Because sony thinks you are stupid; and good lord, you've got their back!!

the reason people complain about PS3 is basically because it sucks, and sony needs to be tought a lesson, consumers are not as stupid as sony thinks they are. Remember the whole root-kit thing? Then their 'fix' which made it worse?!!? And you are still willing to put more money in their pockets?

Wii'60 FTW. Same price, 2 consoles. If getting ripped off and playing sonys little 'screw the consumer' game is your thing, be my guest to buy one of those pieces of shit. If your thing is making smart purchases with your hard earned $$, then it will not take long to see the PS3 is a bad move for sony and consumers alike.
 
I wont get into specifics; but I am amused by the fact that the most vocal of the PS3 supporters seem to have no grasp of the English language. Could it be that these people have no concern regarding the price because mommy and daddy will be buying it for them?

... or they'll cry... :(
 
HighwayAssassins said:
The best part is that in the lower end model, they still shove an expensive blu-ray drive down your throat, but it wont play blu-ray discs!! whats with that shit? .
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Wait, what?
 
LeviathanZERO said:
HAhaha! OMG Do you read English? Did you not read what I said?
So you DISAGREE that the PS3 is $600?

You just negated every comment you had.
Click to expand...

I guess not in your little world... Why don't you try spit it back at me so us little people can understand.. :rolleyes:
 
LeviathanZERO said:
Please enlighten me more. I would have never known that without you telling me. :rolleyes:
No shit theres a $500 model. 1. its still expensive. 2. its still missing shit. 3. SONY wants you to buy the $600. (80% of shipments are the $600.)

$500, $600. $300, $400. Potato. Pota toe.
You guys are missing the clear fact that most people are avoiding the PS3 for one reason only. IT IS $600. Fuck BlueRay or Bluetooth or Tilt sensor or !!!! stimulator, If you're trying to sell me a Video Game console at $600, you're an idiot. Thats it and nothing more.

You !!!!!!s can sit here and fight all day, but the people with paychecks are the ones that make history. And those people dont look at Video Game consoles that cost $600.

Got any friends with a NEO GEO?
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Tell me Mr. smarty pants... What is it missing? Enlighten us with your big head of yours that's about to pop.

Fact is lower end PS3 has more hardware and features than a xbox premium... Any child can tell you that...

I guess everyone makes nickles and dimes like you... Fact is if everyone can afford a $500+ computer to talk on the internet they can afford a PS3 or Xbox... Why don't you bad mouth all the idiots who spend $1000+ on a computer gaming system...Fact is you can buy a typical web browser/email system/dvd burner for $400... Where's the rest of the money going into? GAMING!

You sure as hell don't need 2 gigs of ram, conroe, sli graphics to do typical computing tasks... All that money is spent on GAMING!
 
Marvelous said:
Fact is if everyone can afford a $500+ computer to talk on the internet they can afford a PS3 or Xbox...
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Wow, what an ignorant statement. So by your logic, if I bought a car, you automatically assume that from that point on, I can afford anything under the cost of that car at any given time?

Well, shit, ive been going about this money thing all wrong!! I always saved for things, then bought them! What a dumbass I was, I didnt realize I can afford anything under the price of anything I own at any given time!! I've got a pretty nice system that I would value at over $1500, so maybe I should take a trip to mexico or something!! When my credit cards start maxing out, I will simply call visa and say "hey, look. I know what you are thinking. But dont worry about it, I have a $1500 computer at home, so I can afford anythign under $1500." Maybe I should redo my bathroom.

Actually, it took me 5 years to build the computer I have now, every time I get a new componant, I sold the old one and reinvested it into teh rig. Its not like *poof* $1500 to build a computer!!

Just because anyone has anything nice does not mean they can AUTOMATICALLY afford anything they want. People work for nice things, and dont buy pieces of shit like PS3...except those with too much money.
 
solideliquid said:
Wait, what?
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Admittidly I may be wrong, and things may have changed, but I read somewhere (you will have to excuse the lack of linkage, im tired) that there is like a $600 model and a $500 model. The $600 model sports blu-ray functionality, but the $500 model is locked down in terms of playing blu-ray discs, even though it has a functional blu-ray drive that you paid for!
 
Marvelous said:
nickles and dimes like you... Fact is if everyone can afford a $500+ computer to talk on the internet they can afford a PS3 or Xbox... Why don't you bad mouth all the idiots who spend $1000+ on a computer gaming system...Fact is you can buy a typical web browser/email system/dvd burner for $400... Where's the rest of the money going into? GAMING!
Click to expand...

Thing is with a computer you can do more then just play games. With mine I have at least a 100 gigs of client hard drive images on my system. Anytime we pull a machine to repair it I keep an image on mine for at least a month if we do anything with the systemfiles or hardware just in case. Also one could argue that most of the faster parts(other then graphics card) make the system faster for other things. Also with a computer you can put the money into it over time. Ie you can do a video card upgrade or a cpu upgrade whatever and then do something elce a month or 2 later. With the ps3 you are taking a 600 dollar cost upfront for a closed system. Also for the ones of us that have a gf/wife it is a little easer to hide a cost with a computer if we use it for work.
 
HighwayAssassins said:
Admittidly I may be wrong, and things may have changed, but I read somewhere (you will have to excuse the lack of linkage, im tired) that there is like a $600 model and a $500 model. The $600 model sports blu-ray functionality, but the $500 model is locked down in terms of playing blu-ray discs, even though it has a functional blu-ray drive that you paid for!
Click to expand...

I believe the problem was w/ hdmi. The $500 ps3 was missing hdmi, which was supposed to be a requirement for bluray movies, so you supposedly wouldnt be able to watch blueray movies in 1080p, negating the point of blueray movies altogether. This is why many had jumped ship from getting the $500 ps3 altogether and were simply comparing the $600 ps3 (which everyone buying a ps3 would buy) and the $400 360 (which everyone buying a 360 would buy). While I never caught the specifics of the clarification of that, the $500 model supports hdmi now anyway, so it doesn't matter.

In terms of hardware, the ps3 IS a better value than the 360. for $100 more, you get blueray, and for $200 more, you get a bigger hd and wireless capabilities out of the box. To get all that w/ the 360 would cost $700...but most people don't need all that.
 
HighwayAssassins said:
Wow, what an ignorant statement. So by your logic, if I bought a car, you automatically assume that from that point on, I can afford anything under the cost of that car at any given time?

Well, shit, ive been going about this money thing all wrong!! I always saved for things, then bought them! What a dumbass I was, I didnt realize I can afford anything under the price of anything I own at any given time!! I've got a pretty nice system that I would value at over $1500, so maybe I should take a trip to mexico or something!! When my credit cards start maxing out, I will simply call visa and say "hey, look. I know what you are thinking. But dont worry about it, I have a $1500 computer at home, so I can afford anythign under $1500." Maybe I should redo my bathroom.

Actually, it took me 5 years to build the computer I have now, every time I get a new componant, I sold the old one and reinvested it into teh rig. Its not like *poof* $1500 to build a computer!!

Just because anyone has anything nice does not mean they can AUTOMATICALLY afford anything they want. People work for nice things, and dont buy pieces of shit like PS3...except those with too much money.
Click to expand...

We are not talking about $10000-$100000 automobiles here... We are talking about a game console any average joe can buy with 1 paycheck... And what is $100 extra for a PS3 that you're going to spend 3-5 years of playing it on?

It's good that you built your computer for 5 years and happy for you it took you that long... I built mine in 1 day... Poof... I spent little over $1000 to build a computer... And I make less money than almost everyone here... I guarantee it...
 
Orange.exe said:
In terms of hardware, the ps3 IS a better value than the 360. for $100 more, you get blueray, and for $200 more, you get a bigger hd and wireless capabilities out of the box. To get all that w/ the 360 would cost $700...but most people don't need all that.
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That's only true if you value Blu-Ray more than you value your $100. Who here thinks that *only* people with HDTVs will purchase a PS3? Those people who only have SDTV are very likely to value their $100 more than Blu-Ray, particularly since they can't take advantage of it. And since that comment is likely to spawn responses such as "But it has higher disc capacity for games" again I'd suggest that many folks are very likely to value their $100 over the minor annoyance of swapping DVDs mid-game should such games become common place.

The lower end PS3 at $500 is only a value if *you* value what you get more than you value your money. If, as many think right now, you feel that you are being forced to purchase “extra” hardware just to get a next-gen game system, you will justifiably feel that the cost is too expensive.

Of course the big question that remains is, regardless of how people feel, will they still buy it? Obviously there is a group of people who will buy it whatever it costs, and there is a group of people who will begrudgingly buy despite its cost, and there is most definitely a group of people who will not buy it precisely because of the cost. How the proportions of those groups works itself out remains to be seen.
 
swatbat said:
Thing is with a computer you can do more then just play games. With mine I have at least a 100 gigs of client hard drive images on my system. Anytime we pull a machine to repair it I keep an image on mine for at least a month if we do anything with the systemfiles or hardware just in case. Also one could argue that most of the faster parts(other then graphics card) make the system faster for other things. Also with a computer you can put the money into it over time. Ie you can do a video card upgrade or a cpu upgrade whatever and then do something elce a month or 2 later. With the ps3 you are taking a 600 dollar cost upfront for a closed system. Also for the ones of us that have a gf/wife it is a little easer to hide a cost with a computer if we use it for work.
Click to expand...

And your point? You can do that with $500 computer and than some... You don't need a conroe, 2gigs of ram, sli system to do your every day tasks...

You can say the same thing about the xbox being $400 because $300 xbox is totally crippled which you can't save your games nor can you play older xbox titles... Why does everyone think the ps3 is $600... It's $500 that has more features than the xbox premium... Has all the necessary stuff to play games, save games, play blue ray discs, HDMI hookup...
 
Go spend your money then son.
You are obviously not listening to anyone, and would rather argue.

BTW if Joeblow makes $600 a paycheck, he makes $1200 a month.
Bills. Adults have bills. You'll see them someday.

Joeblow cannot afford a PS3.

Either way, reply if you like, Im done.
 
JethroXP said:
That's only true if you value Blu-Ray more than you value your $100. Who here thinks that *only* people with HDTVs will purchase a PS3? Those people who only have SDTV are very likely to value their $100 more than Blu-Ray, particularly since they can't take advantage of it. And since that comment is likely to spawn responses such as "But it has higher disc capacity for games" again I'd suggest that many folks are very likely to value their $100 over the minor annoyance of swapping DVDs mid-game should such games become common place.

The lower end PS3 at $500 is only a value if *you* value what you get more than you value your money. If, as many think right now, you feel that you are being forced to purchase “extra” hardware just to get a next-gen game system, you will justifiably feel that the cost is too expensive.

Of course the big question that remains is, regardless of how people feel, will they still buy it? Obviously there is a group of people who will buy it whatever it costs, and there is a group of people who will begrudgingly buy despite its cost, and there is most definitely a group of people who will not buy it precisely because of the cost. How the proportions of those groups works itself out remains to be seen.
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With an xbox 360 you will be swapping discs in the very near future... Some of the original xbox games were nearly 7gigs of data... All the PS3 games will be based on blueray... It can hold more data for future games especially those games that have lots of HD cutscenes... It can be quite bit of annoyance if you have to change discs every game that will be coming out in the near future... Not to mention it wears down the discs and wears down your dvd more if you constantly swap discs...

Fact is we don't know what will happen with the blueray and HDDVD.... But far as the movie studios go they all put their support for blueray.
 
LeviathanZERO said:
Go spend your money then son.
You are obviously not listening to anyone, and would rather argue.

BTW if Joeblow makes $600 a paycheck, he makes $1200 a month.
Bills. Adults have bills. You'll see them someday.

Joeblow cannot afford a PS3.

Either way, reply if you like, Im done.
Click to expand...

For your info I'm probably older than you since your still in college... but whatever makes you think you're better than me I guess.. :rolleyes:

Joeblow is rather poor in your 3rd world you live in... I mean even a guy who works at McDonalds make more money than that now a days...
 
Marvelous said:
With an xbox 360 you will be swapping discs in the very near future... Some of the original xbox games were nearly 7gigs of data... All the PS3 games will be based on blueray... It can hold more data for future games especially those games that have lots of HD cutscenes... It can be quite bit of annoyance if you have to change discs every game that will be coming out in the near future... Not to mention it wears down the discs and wears down your dvd more if you constantly swap discs...

Fact is we don't know what will happen with the blueray and HDDVD.... But far as the movie studios go they all put their support for blueray.
Click to expand...

Hey, if HD cutscenes in your games is worth an extra $200 for you, then by all means, spend your money and be happy. And yes, I said $200, because as much as you try to say the PS3 is $500, the fact is Sony themselves have already said the distribution ratio will be 80% $600 units, and 20% $500 units. So yes, there will be a $500 PS3, but it will only account for 1 out of every 5 made, meaning that the vast majority of PS3 owners will be paying $600, which means that for the purposes of this discussion, the PS3 costs $600.
 
JethroXP said:
Hey, if HD cutscenes in your games is worth an extra $200 for you, then by all means, spend your money and be happy. And yes, I said $200, because as much as you try to say the PS3 is $500, the fact is Sony themselves have already said the distribution ratio will be 80% $600 units, and 20% $500 units. So yes, there will be a $500 PS3, but it will only account for 1 out of every 5 made, meaning that the vast majority of PS3 owners will be paying $600, which means that for the purposes of this discussion, the PS3 costs $600.
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And? You can still get them for $500... Far as distribution goes... Nothing is set in stone... If no one bought the $600 version and everyone bought $500 version then SONY has no choice to put out more $500 PS3... Most people don't need the $600 version... As all it does is have wireless and bigger hard drive for online content...
 
Marvelous said:
And? You can still get them for $500... Far as distribution goes... Nothing is set in stone... If no one bought the $600 version and everyone bought $500 version then SONY has no choice to put out more $500 PS3... Most people don't need the $600 version... As all it does is have wireless and bigger hard drive for online content...
Click to expand...

Um...yeah, ok. I'm sure that's *exactly* how things will work out. Maybe Sony should hire you, I mean, you have this whole console business completely figured out.
 
JethroXP said:
Um...yeah, ok. I'm sure that's *exactly* how things will work out. Maybe Sony should hire you, I mean, you have this whole console business completely figured out.
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LOL hire everyone in the theard i think. Seems like most know the system and the future better then anyone else
 
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