Jumping to conclusions...

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Newsboys2004

Gawd
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I've had talks with people who think that a controller is better then a keyboard/mouse at fps because two games made for game consoles and ported to pcs had pc users beaten by console users...

Hardly scientific...

He of course, didn't have an answer to what would happen if a bunch of console users went into CS:S with controllers..........

This is the problem I see with idiots, or in perticular, with letting little children online. They see one victory, and think they've won.

One victory doesn't win a war.

The only way it would be scientific, is to have lots of games played on both pcs and consoles by both pc and console gamers, and to play games on both pcs and consoles.

Now, the main point of the topic is...

Is keyboard and mouse really better?

The mouse is legions better then a controller, for aiming... But it got me thinking, the keyboard only does one movement, while a controller has two joysticks, allowing perfect movement, while they can't shoot...

So it has me wondering if keybaord/mouse is really the best combo...

Seems that none are currently the best combo, the keyboard mouse would be amazing if it was two mice being controlled, or a joystick tacked onto a keyboard, but until then we have the problem of the keyboard...

Seems that because of the keyboard, pc gamers can shoot better, but because of the controller, console users can move better.
 
ummm you can move and aim at the same time with a mouse and keyboard....same with joysticks, no difference unless i didnt get ur idea. heres my 2 cents, it doesnt matter if you use a mouse or keyboard, the thing is that if you have enough practice or gametime with either you'll be really good at it, when a really good contoller goes against a really good key/mouse its all a matter of skill IMO, skill not with their prefered control but skill in the game itself.
 
Okay...

Keyboard only allows one motion of sensitivity, for movement, joysticks allow for alot more sensitivity... and mice allow for even more...

The thing is, with a keyboard, you can't move slow, and then move fast, like you can with a controller, you can only move at one speed, and then press 'run button' to go faster... or slower...
 
mouse and a keyboard design? hmmm betcha xerox is still kickem themselves there :D
 
Mouse: you move your hand from point a to point b, and the cursor follows.

Controller: you indicate a speed and direction for your movement, and release at the appropriate time.

It's widely understood that console FPS have significantly greater help on aiming; basically, you don't have to be as precise. Ports to PC from console still have all their lovely console-friendly code, which often includes things like limits on turning speeds that essentially cripple a mouse user and make the game far more difficult for an experienced PC gamer to play.

I'm wondering what games those are that are letting console users and PC users face off. I've never heard of one.
 
the walk key in many FPS etc.. for keyboard, mines the shift usually, therefore i can be running or walking.

also sounds like u may be hinting at console better than pc, which IMO is farthest from the truth. but everyones opinion is different.
 
No, all I'm saying is that we can aim better, while they can move better...

In a game like CS:S we could own them, while in a game like Unreal Championshjip they'd own us.

If we had more advanced keyboards or mouse and mouse there's no way a console gamer could ever hope to beat us.
 
I'd pay money to see someone move around a Quake 4 / UT2004 map with a console controller as quickly and efficiently as I could with my mouse and keyboard. I understand how joysticks work, allowing for faster or slower aiming movements depending on how hard you move the joystick, but to say you can move better using a controller is ignorant.
 
So we need a joystick/mouse combo then. :D

But that doesn't address all of the OTHER functionality of the keyboard. Instant weapon selects, other commands not related to movement (chat, voice commands, etc.)

Most FPS's use at least 10-15 keys on the keyboard for various functions. Only a few are for movement yes, but the rest have thier places too.
 
a 2 foot by 2 foot area of movement will ALWAYS be more precise than a 10cm x 10cm area of movement. (mouse versus tiny joystick on gamepad)

The FACT is a lot of console games implement target locking to compensate for the lack of precision in aiming.

If a console player was better at a console game than a PC player was at the PC version of the game then that game likely uses target locking on the console version.

/discussion

*edit* "target locking" might confuse some people, basically it acts like a magnet that gently "encourages" the crosshair to move toward the target while it is near it. The effect is hardly noticeable to the player but makes a big difference.
 
Play with what you like. I'm sure that if we ever do have pad vs. K/M combos and the pad wins, somehow everyone will claim that there's some other reason for it. After all it's somehow a FACT that's it's better.
Play with what you enjoy.
Personally, I still think the weakness in PC gaming isn't the mouse. Mouse aiming *IS* better in my opinion. I'm not right or wrong, but I like it better and I think it's easier. It doesn't mean there aren't some pad players that won't wipe the floor with me and anyone else here in this forum, though.
The true weak-link in the mouse/keyboardsetup is the keyboard. It lacks analog and sensitivity features. People can use all of the toggles they want, nothing beats a legitimate sensitivity switch.
Something like the Wii controller is the future of FPS style controls. Precision movement and functionality (with ergonomics in mind) combined with fast POV control. It doesn't mean the Wii controller itself is the answer, but mark my words, within 5-6 years people will be wondering why people were gaming on a typewriter a few years ago.

For now - there's nothing preventing you from using a pad in your left hand and a mouse in your right. It's not the easiest thing to set-up, but it's the closest thing to a best of both worlds setup these days.
 
That was a slightly interesting read on Shadowrun, but I am disappointed that they didn't take it to the other extreme in their testing. Turn off all the little help things for BOTH controller and keyboard and mouse and then test it. If they were truly interested in balance, I would think this would be an essential part of their testing.
 
The analog sticks on a gamepad have a very small range of movement so that the scale is extremely pronounced compared to the entire mouse. It does have the advantage of continuous turning, but this is usually offset by having the mouse turn sensitivty be enough to make a full 180 without picking the mouse, negating the need for a continuous turn in most cases. Joysticks aren't good for aiming. PC players aren't buying joysticks to aim with in FPS games.

Analog sticks and their continues input DO have a purpose though. Foot movement is continuous on keyboards but not precise. Joysticks have the advantage here. Remember games like Duke3d, Doom, and Blood where you could move around with the mouse? It meant you'd be picking up the mouse constantly. Not good.

An improvement would be analog keys. This could even be applied to gamepad buttons as well, but the question is whether or not it's worth the added time and effort of implementing these things?
 
Domingo said:
Play with what you like. I'm sure that if we ever do have pad vs. K/M combos and the pad wins, somehow everyone will claim that there's some other reason for it. After all it's somehow a FACT that's it's better.
Click to expand...

Let's see...precision, speed, intuitiveness...yep, I'd have to say that there's very little reason to think that the mouse as an aiming device isn't superior.

Domingo said:
The true weak-link in the mouse/keyboardsetup is the keyboard. It lacks analog and sensitivity features. People can use all of the toggles they want, nothing beats a legitimate sensitivity switch.
Click to expand...

The consoles don't have this, either. You've got two analog sticks (one of which is replaced by the mouse, and the analog function on the other is usually useless in multiplayer games) and as many as a dozen toggling buttons. The keyboard just gives you more buttons in a more flexible format.

Domingo said:
Something like the Wii controller is the future of FPS style controls. Precision movement and functionality (with ergonomics in mind) combined with fast POV control. It doesn't mean the Wii controller itself is the answer, but mark my words, within 5-6 years people will be wondering why people were gaming on a typewriter a few years ago.
Click to expand...

I don't agree. Motion-sensitive controls are cool, but there's a lot to be said for a controller that you can turn lose of without losing your place. Motion sensitivity forces you to keep your hand(s) in place, and will likely cause more fatigue.

Domingo said:
For now - there's nothing preventing you from using a pad in your left hand and a mouse in your right. It's not the easiest thing to set-up, but it's the closest thing to a best of both worlds setup these days.
Click to expand...

What I think would be cool is something like the custom keypads we've seen lately, but with an analog stick for directional control. Of course, it'd require in-game support...
 
Newsboys2004 said:
Someone gets it!

The problem is the keyboard! Burn keyboard burn!
Click to expand...

Maybe it's the default WASD layout that is the problem. Sure it's idiot-friendly, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's good.

(I abandoned it years ago)
 
CodeX said:
The FACT is a lot of console games implement target locking to compensate for the lack of precision in aiming.
Click to expand...
This is far and away the most conclusive argument for the inferiority of controllers. If they didn't suck balls, they wouldn't need auto-aim or target locking.
 
i loathe fps's on consoles, it just doesn't feel natural at all, very inprecise, m&kb all the way
 
Newsboys2004 said:
while in a game like Unreal Championshjip they'd own us.
Click to expand...

That's quite possibly the worst example you could have picked. A twitch shooter that requires incredible reaction speeds and you're saying the console player has the advantage? That's completely and utterly insane.
 
and if u watch new LIVE demo of gears of war at www.gametrailers.com, watch as some of the crosshairs jump above enemy behind something, then person has to adjust it down some then begin shooting, fine for single player story driven game, but no chance of survival in a online FPS. BOOOOM headshot!!!
 
the advantages gained by having a mouse far out weigh the advantages of having an anolog stick. mind you i play mostly FPS games....

but for NFS:MW. still, if you tap the "A" or "D" then your getting the same effect as hitting tha anologstick partially left.

anywho, mouse + keybaord FTW.
 
Newsboys2004 said:
I gave the example of unreal championship because you also hafta use a sword, it's not just an fps.
Click to expand...

Then you're speaking of Unreal Championship 2, and even still your example makes little sense. I've played UC2 quite a bit, and I'm 100% positive that with a mouse and keyboard I'd devastate with the Sniper Rifle (that's half shotgun, designed with the inaccuracy of analog sticks in mind) regardless of what sword someone had in their hand. They'd never get close enough to me because my superior aim would boomheadshot them into oblivion.
 
analog movement has little advantages. The only real advantage might be to dodge shots that have do not have instantaneous travel times (i.e. rockets). Otherwise you will always want to be moving at full speed. As long as it's not in a straight line it makes aiming at you harder (reversing directions is also faster in a keyboard)

Turning is faster and more precise with a mouse. Coupled with the always full speed move it will be more efficient.

Things like running, jumping, turning back and getting a shot off in midair and landing facing forward again will always be harder (if possible at all) in a controller.
 
I read an article in PC gamer IIRC a while back where they were trying to proove keyboard/mouse was superior than a controller. They took a bunch of hardcore Halo players and had them play against PC gamers who had either never played Halo had very little experiance with it at all face off on the PC version with their respected imput preference (kb/mouse vs controller). After a few warm up rounds the PC gamers ended up winning most of the games.
 
For those who have not read the article above concerning Shadowrun, you should. The most telling part I found was.

"Some will say that the work we do to make the controller aiming feel good is basically cheating, and that its not true “skill” that helps them win. From one perspective that might be true, but you have to look at our goal. We want to level the playing field between PC and console"

The rest of the article tends to make you belive that the controlers will keep up with Mouse and keyboard, but that's only if you are playing by console rules.

1 vote for true skill here. I think that true skill will appeal to the PC gamer more than the console crowd, but in the end the real question is, is the game fun.

I have an answer. Make a proper mouse like controler for the console.
 
JOYSTICK + TRACKBALL...


That's what I use.

Joystick on the right for movement, shooting, jumping ducking, etc...
Trackball on the left for looking, changing weapons, reloading, and "Actions" (entering vehicles, opening doors, etc...)

I'll post pics upon request.
 
"Short answer: the mouse is better at aiming, but the controller is better at gaming."

That's basically what I've been saying :eek:

The only problem with the console gamers is that their controllers have gotten the best they can get (Not counting Wii), if we were to make a keyboard with a joystick attach to it, or used specilized keyboard attachments...
 
Really though, the only types of games a console would be better at is a fast paced game with handheld AND shooting weapons...

In a quick paced fps or rts game, if your good, you'll beat anyone on a pc. But really, the ancient typewriter has GOT TO GO.

Just as a quick question, I know windows itself wouldn't allow this, but could it be possible in game? If a programmer is listening, would they do this? Program the ability for us to use two mice in a game, and then type for commands?

Most of us have tons of mice lying around...

So????
 
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