Dell Dimension XPS 400 Evaluation @ [H]

Not unexpected in the least. To bad most folks here would probably buy a Dell as a last resort in most cases anyways. Need to get the masses to read it.

Good Review!!
 
Brian Boyko said:
Here's that MSConfig screenshot
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Damn that's a lot of resource hogging programs..

My only personal dealing with Dell has been with their DJ line of MP3 players. I had a 1st gen 15gb DJ that had some internal non-drive problems, and had to be returned. I talked with someone in India who spoke perfect english, and even understood the more complex words of the language. I promptly recieved a 20gb 2nd gen DJ in exchange.

That being said, all of Dell's current consumer level PCs are crap. I've worked on plenty of Dimensions, and a couple XPS systems, and all of them had problems due to "slowness" or "crashing" as the customers described it. I definately agree with the review, and I believe that Dell needs to get their game together. Good job guys.
 
"We were told by Dell specifically that they would send out a drivers disk and an applications disk. Which they did not. When we called to inquire about this, they said it was a mistake, and to call back to request them."

i never said they were bright people...they are basically incompitant...and like i said they must have changed thier policy of shipping os/driver/application cd's with system recently since i stopped working there...which yes is outright stupid.

"The CD that took us three phone calls and one unfulfilled commitment to obtain. Furthermore, why would you settle for doing the job that Dell should have done to begin with? Certianly 90% of Dell’s consumer customers do not have the required knowledge to do this."

my expectations of a oem pc are always going to be to format the hard drive...no matter who it is made by. i don't want anything on my computer that i myself did not put. this is what i am talking about...you wrote an article/review from the perspective of a novice computer user...your audience yes does contain these people, but it also contains more advanced users as well. if you want to write reviews that cater to only novice users then that is your decision. i can still read your review and decide that i would in fact buy this system if i got a good deal on the hardware (price). none of the problems you described were with the hardware of the system...and i can realize this...but some people will not...and that seems one sided to me as well.

"That part may have been a bit confusing, now that I have gone back and reread it. I was there for the booting up of the MCE disk. We could not delete the NTFS partition when we booted from the MCE disk, we were told it was protected."

then how did you ever delete the partition?

"Actually, we are able to get a drivers disk from other OEMs who provide thousands of different configurations, why should Dell be any different? I am very familiar with how a company can build a single ghost image for certain platforms (usually based on the motherboard and or chipset) and still be able to service many different configurations."

yes i realize it should have came with disks...every oem pc should....moving on...an exact ghost image should only be used for a specific machine with a specific hardware/software set. your logic is completely flawed here...you can make an image for a system as long as it has the same hardware yes...motherboard chipset...but when you can addon hardware that windows does not have native drivers for or you allow customers to select other software in their build what are you supposed to do drop down a generic ghost image and then install the addon drivers and software manually to each machine...lol....give me a break...you aren't thinking about this clearly.

"I appreciate your comments and your background, let me tell you a little about myself. I have nearly 8 years in systems integration. I have worked for the leading company in HD post production and the finest workstation company this side of Apple when it comes to digital content creation. I have worked for a large OEM in Houston that sells and supports 4,000 systems at a time to school districts. I even founded and later sold a modestly successful gaming system company. I have worked in R&D, sales, support, technical marketing, operations and production management, and even purchasing and planning. And even if I didn’t have that experience, and I will admit that I have no experience working for Dell, I can name to you off the top of my head several companies that we have worked with that do a superior job of systems integration than Dell."

i applaud your background...but dell is a computer manufacturer not really a systems integration company...you made incorrect assumptions about the processes they use and i corrected you guys....no harm done...it seems you think they slap down a bunch of ghost images onto systems and that is far from the case.

"I think you’re a bit too forgiving of Dell’s inability to build a quality machine."

they do build pretty high quality machines...but their bloatware and tech support suck...im not disagreeing with you there...im just saying many of us already knew that...and you focused on that throughout your entire review.

"I’m glad you think we make good idiots. I do take exception that you think we may have ‘thrown’ this evaluation to appease our readers. I’m trying to build [H] Consumer’s integrity and respect so that readers outside of the enthusiast community will come to trust our articles so they can make informed and wise decisions regarding their hard earned cash. Frankly I’m a bit insulted by your insinuation."

i can't say it better myself you are trying to broaden the appeal of your site to people other than enthusiast readers...the readers that made this site possible. i for one don't really gain anything from this review...i don't think many other of your true reader base does as well...that is my only point. i do not mean to insult...that is just my opinion.



i have read your systems evalution article...it was nice. i would rather have more of an enthusiast opinion towards products...i can get reviews that tell me dell systems have too much addon software and that have horrible tech support elsewhere...

tell me your opinion on the hardware as an enthusiast...not as a robot tech support novice.
 
Mike, again, we are segmenting HardOCP. There will be [H] Enthusiast (all the stuff you currently love), [H] Consumer, and [H] Console. This will be very apparent when our site redesign is rolled out.

If the articles my team writes do not appeal to you, you will never have to go to our section of hardocp.
 
Chris_Morley said:
Mike, again, we are segmenting HardOCP. There will be [H] Enthusiast (all the stuff you currently love), [H] Consumer, and [H] Console. This will be very apparent when our site redesign is rolled out.

If the articles my team writes do not appeal to you, you will never have to go to our section of hardocp.
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i apologize i guess im not [H] lite...i didnt realize the site was already splitting into different sections...

i remember some of the old system reviews (like of the dell xps notebook with the mobility 9800 radeon) written by kyle (if i remember right)...that had a good focus. i seem to remember he liked that system...i guess dell has done down the tubes of recent putting mass bloatware and ghost images on their systems...

i apologize if i insulted you or your team in any way...that whole ghost image thing just cracks me up though...
 
Working as a general computer repair tech. I have noticed the same disturbing trend with most computer hardware/software/service providers. Namely, they are all trying to make things idiot-proof and omnipresent. When you put several of these companies together, that Dell is exactly the type of system you get.

AOL, Quickbooks, McAfee, and Dell themselves all fit into this category in my opinion. I have literally spent hours on user computers removing superfluous software and going through 700 configuration options and restarts for AV, Dell support, ISPs, etc....

Why don't realize the difference between being effective and keeping the user informed and reducing the users productivity by getting in their face.
 
Nice job.

I've been quite critical of your reviews in the past, but this one was good.

Just a thought:
It looks like dell managers say this is how it is and the poor folks who work at dell have no say in anything.

As for the cdrom drive - the tech was sent out to replace the drive - I doubt he cared if the thing worked or not - his job was to replace and appease the customer. He can check to see if the drive works later.

The install thing: wow...what the heck? No install disk, weak.

When I bought my dell + 18" LCD 3 years ago, i instantly wiped the hard drive and installed a evil version of windows. I got a real copy of windows - i paid for it, too bad it sucks.
 
wilkinru said:
Nice job.

As for the cdrom drive - the tech was sent out to replace the drive - I doubt he cared if the thing worked or not - his job was to replace and appease the customer. He can check to see if the drive works later.
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Dell hires third-party techs. for all of their work as far as I know. I have spoken to several (some competent, some not nearly so competent) who do the Dell support gig. From what I gather, they get a call that tells them where/when they have an appointment and Dell ships them the parts that they are likely to need.
 
I keep thinking about the typical gamer (young males) who after developing a taste for gaming on consoles, decides to step on up to the PC gaming ranks because of the superior graphics and online communities. He is able to talk Mom/Dad into footing the bill, however they insist on buying a Dell because its branding and price. Two weeks after opening the box he's back to the consoles.

When the XPS line was introduced I thought it was a good thing for the PC game market as it validated the market niche and would market the PC game experience to a big audience. Turns out I was probably wrong. They actually might be hurting it.
 
Looks like I've lucked out so far with my XPS Gen. 2 laptop. Aside from a horrible wait time in getting the machine (which was partly understandable due to the fact that it was a brand new system, and nVidia had just announced the mobile Geforce 6800 Ultra GPU), I haven't had many problems at all. My system came with a DVD of MCE2005, which I did use to install a clean version of the OS (I'd do that with any machine though).

As for support, I had to phone them up in regards to my CD drive failing. I didn't even have to wait for more than 30 seconds before a tech answered. After explaining the problem I was having, he tech had me remove / reinsert the drive, then run the diagnostics on it (which did develop errors). A minute or so later and I was informed a replacement would be sent out to me. Sure enough, the next day I received the drive and everything's worked great.

I've also had success with getting an Axim PDA replaced a few times due to problems I had -- each time the support reps were very courteous and helpful -- and their promises were kept (usually quicker than they said).

All this said, I fully support [H]ardOCP's viewpoints when it comes to this evaluation. The preinstalled crap -- especially on a "gamers PC" is atrocious. Why should I have to do a clean install of an OS just to get a fully-functioning / high performance setup?
 
if they really do drive down the prices of hardware so we can get more for our money, I can deal with it. I'll just have to clean install. If it means we get no benefit, well that's different.
 
Good job guys.
Very good write up, I'm a custom system PC builder and custom PC designer. This is added fuel to get more customers. Won't say anymore.
 
First off a great review, you guys told the story without holding back anything. My experiences pretty much echoes what was said in the review.

Chris, I will echo your sentiments about the Dell drivers and Windows XP CD’s, I’ve had to call Dell at least 4 times to request them. First time, I got a arrogant tech who told me I didn’t need a disc and I wanted to reinstall for any reason I should use the hidden partition. Still to this day I have no idea how to use that hidden partition. I called again to request the CDs and the lady tech only sent me the drivers CD and not the XP CD. Then I called again about the CD and this time the tech actually sent me the Windows XP CD (which was what I was asking for the first time I called!). The only good part of this whole ordeal was when a manager called me to inquire if my problems were solved.

As for the bloatware issue, I still to this day have some bloatware that will not go away no matter how hard I try to erase/remove it. Perhaps a reformat will solve the problem. For example, the darn My Way Search Assistant is still there after I tried to remove the darn thing 3 times! Honestly I’m a modest computer user/casual gamer but the software inside my Dell has really got to go. As for the msconfig, I had to almost uncheck and remove half of those programs. Why did they include a demo for Quickbooks and Paintshop Pro and make them haunt me when the computer starts?

Also its odd that they would include onboard sound on a machine billed as a "gaming computer" sounds like a Sound Blaster should be stardard fare on this machine.
 
As someone who strongly supports smaller brands (Asus Notebooks for example) and encourages people to buy from a Mom and Pop Store I find this article amusing.

I have so many friends and family who hate their Dells and HPs. They pay a fair amount of money for a mediocre system and its filled with bloat. And I end up getting beer, a couple hundred bucks or personal favours for a reformat (I've easily installed Windows over 150 times)

I've dealt with major companes twice. A Dell XPS T500 that had so many problems and a very poorly built Gateway Solo. Both machines cost more than $3000 in their days and both were riddled with issues that should otherwise not exist. Ever since I built the machines in the house and buy notebooks from smalelr manufacturers.

Its sad that there isn't really a good PC manufacturer anymore that reaches out to the uneducated masses. So do as I recommend (for the newer [H] folk):

1. Determine the use of the machine
2. Determine the budget
3. Get info
4. Get opinions
5. Shop around and see how much it would cost for a custom machine
6. Find the best compromise between customer service and price

I'm glad small-time stores are still around. The majority are crooked or terrible in terms of support but there are a few gems. And these guys are proven to be able to deliver for your buck. Free support even beyond a "Warrenty", repeat customer discounts and best of all, direct customer service.

And I do agree with nonsense like this PC Gaming will continue to see a decline in users and quality games (games blow these days). Overpriced consoles with $70 games will dominate.
 
I honestly don't think those bloatware problems on the Dell machine were there to make the customer's life any easier.

While many computer frustrations among the power user and enthusiast set are caused by computer companies who are willing to prevent clever people from doing clever things in order to prevent not so clever people from doing not so clever things, I don't think that these programs were installed to make the computer user experience much easier. They caused problems, first of all, which is a dead giveaway, and they weren't particularly useful, even to a novice.

I think what you honestly have here are bottom line concerns coming to the fore. Sure, economies of scale and all but I don't think that Dell makes it's profit off of the sales of these machines - they probably get quite a bit from the bloatware.

This is not really a product-based business model, but an advertising-based business model.

In a product based business model, the consumer is the customer. But in an advertising based business model, like television, the consumer doesn't pay for the product, someone else does. In a very real sense, the "consumer" is not the "customer."

When you have an advertising model it can be very easy to care more about the "customer" - in this case, Intuit, AOL, Corel, etc. - and care less about the "consumer."

That's really what bloatware is. Advertisements for products you probably don't want or need.
 
Now you people can finally understand why I have a "mad" smilie next to my Dell PC in my sig below...this review is 100% accurate and reflects my opinion on this company perfectly. :mad:
 
A friend just purchased a Dell laptop at my direction about three weeks ago and he has still not got it in hand. They shipped it within 4 days but it shipped to the incorrect pickup location, almost 2 hours away. When they tried to fix it, it got shipped to another state. He still does not have it. It is more the shippers fault I suppose than Dell, but Dell gets the blame in his eyes. He has had no real help when he has called and this is where the problem lies with Dell. I doubt he will purchase from them again.
 
Trusting a SLED HDD as the only recovery option for the system is unacceptable. Not only can the MBR get munched by a virus, but the HDD that holds it could fail...and you'd have to wait on Dell to get it running again. The Dell tech would need an appropriate install CD along with the new drive, or an image on the replacement drive.
 
mikemodano9c said:
i agree with the review...it is just incomplete...doesn't explain the it from the side of a competent computer savy individual to go along with the average consumer.

the only person that would gain any knowledge from the review are the hopeless unknowing consumer...is that what this site has become?
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Well, he does have a point, there could be a blurb in there about nuking it and in gerenal, beating it into submission. We are all hardware fans here, and for the most part...we would buy a dell ONLY if we found a great deal on it. I myself bought the 9300 and experienced the same deal. No install CD, craptastic partition restore. I barely booted it up before I formatted the drive and put XP Pro on it ( I went for the home edition to save a few bucks, since they charge 10 bucks for the media anyway and I knew I was gonna need to blast it). It does run quite well, but I do not like the Intel Wireless card (I find it bounces the signal FAR too often for my taste).

As for the hardware? DECENT, its hardly great. The failure rate for event the optiplex systems for corporate tend to be WAY too high. This points to quality control issues, and Apple has the same problem (never get the first revision of the hardware...true for any manufacturer really...even motherboards have revisions to get the kinks out). The best part of the Dells over the past three years are the cases (at least the Opti's). VERY easy to work on. Lack of active cooling is a bit of a problem in some cases though. If you can snag some great hardware with one of them 35-40% coupons, go for it. Anyone here though should be prepared to slash into the install and make it their own. Hell, I made 100 bucks today to fix an Inspiron 6000 because McAfee tore it to shreds. Keep cheaping out the customer Dell, makes me $$$$ ;)

I think the classic Dell here was the SC420 server they were offering for like 250 bucks for awhile there where peeps converted it into a workstation. I am still kicking myself I didn't snag one and slap Novell on to play with :( But between the case mods, the cooling, the hardware, etc. That's what brought most of us here in the first place. Takin a pile of shit and turning it into a gleamin Gem Stone. I realize you probably have limited time with these systems, so it might not be practical for you to include it in your reviews. But perhaps the next time you revisit your review process, you may keep that in mind...
 
mikemodano9c said:
yes i realize it should have came with disks...every oem pc should....moving on...an exact ghost image should only be used for a specific machine with a specific hardware/software set. your logic is completely flawed here...you can make an image for a system as long as it has the same hardware yes...motherboard chipset...but when you can addon hardware that windows does not have native drivers for or you allow customers to select other software in their build what are you supposed to do drop down a generic ghost image and then install the addon drivers and software manually to each machine...lol....give me a break...you aren't thinking about this clearly.[\QUOTE]

Actually, its possible to make single disk images for multiple systems via SysPrep. Dell does this as you can see when you first boot up. Adding software is probable as an after thought, though I am not sure if/how Dell does it.

mikemodano9c said:
i applaud your background...but dell is a computer manufacturer not really a systems integration company...you made incorrect assumptions about the processes they use and i corrected you guys....no harm done...it seems you think they slap down a bunch of ghost images onto systems and that is far from the case.
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Not entirely true again. You may be thinking alongside their consumer edge of things, but their Open Manage software and integrations divisions more then likely use the same processes to cut costs. Its really not much of a stretch Dell could use their own equipment in a SAN to keep almost limitless disk images should they need to. More then likely as I said, they do periodic updates to the images and 'ghostwalk' them for various new model lines. If they did everything customized as you are led to believe from the ordering process, there really should not be an issue keeping the drivers up to date, yet this is rarely the case...

/edit whoops, first part of my post got nuked, was describing sysprep and how it is INDEED possible to make images for multiple systems via SysPrep, and Dell uses a customized version of Sysprep that I use at work to span 4 generations of Optiplex Computers with the exact same XP image. It also may be possible to post inject the software via a snapshot utilitiy, similar to the one used by Novell Zenworks.
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Brian and Chris, I feel that you did an excellent job with this article, and should be comended. You were right on target with your premises and were eminently fair with your evaluation.

One thing to keep in mind with the vast majority of tech support personel is that they really don't know that much about computers, or even about what their companies policies might be in a particular case. Hopefully they are good at manipulating their support software and reading prompts. But that is why one person gives you one answer and another reacts completely differently. Persons who can think on their feet, know how to troubleshoot and understand company policy, are either promoted to some other position or fail to meet the targeted average call times. That's also why a smaller company is allways going to be better at providing "quality support".

The one question this article didn't address (and I hope this isn't still the case): How proprietary are the components that Dell uses? For example: just 2 weeks ago I agreed to help someone "upgrade" and old Dell (about 5 yrs old). This particular person wanted to change the OS from Millenium to Windows 2000. They wanted a new HDD, new CD-RW, and new Floppy in addition to a new sound card. They also wanted to use a new Samsung LCD. In the past I've had difficulty getting drivers from Dell for any OS other than what shipped with the system. But the problem I encountered here was that the ATI Rage 128 Pro that was originally installed could not be recognized by the standard ATI drivers. It used a custom video bios.

Later I logged on to Dell's sight (for modem drivers) and realized that the video card didn't even have enough memory to support the LCD's native resolution. So it was just as well that I replaced the video card. Which I didn't really want to do (I wound up selling her a slight used card that I was holding for backup purposes).

So that leaves me wondering which of this Dell's components might be proprietary? And is Dell still using this tactic to force users to rely on them for drivers, thinking that those same (uninformed) users will also refer to them for any upgrades? Those were the factors in the whole "Dell experience" that I found most objectionable in the past.
 
Out of curiosity, I took a look on Newegg at prices for equivalent components plus WindowsXP. Here's an interesting factoid:
approximate cost of components on Newegg: $925
price of system as configured from Dell: $1,233

Neither price includes shipping or taxes.

That's about a $300 difference. In reality, you can probably add at least $150 to that difference once you account for Dell's massive discount for Windows and for Intel processors, the volume discounts Dell gets on hardware, and the lack of margins (Newegg has to make money, you know) on individual components.

Where does that $450 go? Let's see: cost of assembling the computer, overhead (accounting, salaries, cost of maintaining a web site) tech support, advertising, etc. In my mind, those costs don't come to anywhere near $450. Granted, the closer you get to high-end, the larger the margins, and there isn't much of a margin on the $300 AR specials, but still--I would expect that $450 on a $1,200 computer would pay for OS/driver/application CDs, a bloatware-free PC, and better technical support. Since solving the first two (CDs & bloatware) would drastically reduce the cost of the third (tech support), I find it even more inexcusable.

 
Nasty_Savage said:
Well, he does have a point, there could be a blurb in there about nuking it and in gerenal, beating it into submission. We are all hardware fans here, and for the most part...we would buy a dell ONLY if we found a great deal on it. I myself bought the 9300 and experienced the same deal. No install CD, craptastic partition restore. I barely booted it up before I formatted the drive and put XP Pro on it ( I went for the home edition to save a few bucks, since they charge 10 bucks for the media anyway and I knew I was gonna need to blast it). It does run quite well, but I do not like the Intel Wireless card (I find it bounces the signal FAR too often for my taste).

As for the hardware? DECENT, its hardly great. The failure rate for event the optiplex systems for corporate tend to be WAY too high. This points to quality control issues, and Apple has the same problem (never get the first revision of the hardware...true for any manufacturer really...even motherboards have revisions to get the kinks out). The best part of the Dells over the past three years are the cases (at least the Opti's). VERY easy to work on. Lack of active cooling is a bit of a problem in some cases though. If you can snag some great hardware with one of them 35-40% coupons, go for it. Anyone here though should be prepared to slash into the install and make it their own. Hell, I made 100 bucks today to fix an Inspiron 6000 because McAfee tore it to shreds. Keep cheaping out the customer Dell, makes me $$$$ ;)

I think the classic Dell here was the SC420 server they were offering for like 250 bucks for awhile there where peeps converted it into a workstation. I am still kicking myself I didn't snag one and slap Novell on to play with :( But between the case mods, the cooling, the hardware, etc. That's what brought most of us here in the first place. Takin a pile of shit and turning it into a gleamin Gem Stone. I realize you probably have limited time with these systems, so it might not be practical for you to include it in your reviews. But perhaps the next time you revisit your review process, you may keep that in mind...
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Maybe I just missed it, but could you clarify what you'd like us to consider including?
 
Nasty_Savage said:
Not entirely true again. You may be thinking alongside their consumer edge of things, but their Open Manage software and integrations divisions more then likely use the same processes to cut costs. Its really not much of a stretch Dell could use their own equipment in a SAN to keep almost limitless disk images should they need to. More then likely as I said, they do periodic updates to the images and 'ghostwalk' them for various new model lines. If they did everything customized as you are led to believe from the ordering process, there really should not be an issue keeping the drivers up to date, yet this is rarely the case...

/edit whoops, first part of my post got nuked, was describing sysprep and how it is INDEED possible to make images for multiple systems via SysPrep, and Dell uses a customized version of Sysprep that I use at work to span 4 generations of Optiplex Computers with the exact same XP image. It also may be possible to post inject the software via a snapshot utilitiy, similar to the one used by Novell Zenworks.
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have you worked there? im telling you they do not use ghost images or any type of image to put software on their machines...

there are a group of corporate servers with all the operating systems, drivers, software, etc. all of the files are in zip packs and are downloaded and extracted onto the machines during the factory process after the hardware has been assembled. after the software is physically downloaded and extracted a virus scan is run over the network and then dell proprietary software is run to make sure the software that has been downloaded exactly matches the hardware spec of the machine...they call this FIST (factory install system test). once this has been done if the machine passes the FIST phase it is rebooted for the last time and the proprietary software "seals" the box so that the customer sees his/her service tag upon first booting their system...then they go through the windows xp splash screens where they do basic configuration like internet connection, etc...sysprep is used during the download process but it has nothing to do with a hard drive image...this process takes usually about 2 hours or more depending on the hardware and software configuration of the specific machine...

thanks for playing :)

the only time they use any type of hard drive images is in development when the hardware configuration is not changed on a specific hardware config, and we needed to get a valid system image quickly to test something in a lab. nothing that ever goes to a customer is from a stored image.

their open manage software is a joke...most of the time it causes more problems with their download process and system performance than anything (haha i didn't say that). :D
 
DNA Doc said:
Maybe I just missed it, but could you clarify what you'd like us to consider including?
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i think he is saying focus more on quality of hardware for money spent, etc... more than pages about dell's tech support experience...

i for one would only buy a dell system when they have one of their blowout 50% off sales...about the only time they are a truly good value.

it is really a moot point...i think the review is good for someone that isn't really educated about computers and technology in general...as they explained the site will have a different section targeted for a different audience.
 
No, I think that's what you're saying...not him. You're entitled to your opinion (which I think we've all heard by now), but I'd like to hear his, as well.
 
mikemodano9c said:
chris morley...

if you don't know the first thing about computers is it dell's fault? like that shiny mousepad stuff...ya it's stupid to ship one that won't work well with an optical mouse....but who cares? anyone with an iq over 50 would realize that...
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Well then thats why I have had to explain to doctors and lawyers that their optical mouse wont work on their GLASS desk. "I don't understand the mouse just doesn't move"

No shit...
:rolleyes:

This review was right on point...too bad not enough people that NEED to see this actually will see this.

I think at this point, Dell gets by on brand recognition more than any other factor. People who don't know any better when it comes to computers know two words. Dell and Intel. OK and they probably know the whole "Intel Inside" phrase as well. People buy what they know...they could have the understanding that the home built/AMD system is better and more powerful (and sometimes cheaper)...but they still buy the Dell becuase they see the Dell ads in the paper or on TV.

But brand recognition only goes so far...I have met SOOO many people that say something along the lines of, "Man I bought this Dell becuase I had heard good things, but now I will never buy another one again" ...usually followed by some explitives.

That shows you that you can have "decent" hardware configs, but if your support SUX then kiss that customer goodbye.
 
mikemodano9c said:
i think he is saying focus more on quality of hardware for money spent, etc... more than pages about dell's tech support experience...

i for one would only buy a dell system when they have one of their blowout 50% off sales...about the only time they are a truly good value.

it is really a moot point...i think the review is good for someone that isn't really educated about computers and technology in general...as they explained the site will have a different section targeted for a different audience.
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I'm not picking on you, honestly I'm not...

But hardware is the smallest piece of the puzzle...seriously...the SMALLEST. Everyone sells the same hardware...you buy the same stuff Dell sells through ANY OEM. Aside from thier usually proprietary form factored mobos (which have std chipsets)...the hardware can be bought from anyone...maybe cheaper, maybe more expensive...

Pretty much every other factor aside from hardware should be the focus...(defective HW notwithstanding)

I mean how many differences will there be between every manufacturers version of the 6800GT...aside from the defaultly OC'd versions, they are all going to operate within the same margin of error given all other factors are the same.
 
DNA Doc said:
Which is why our program exists...to talk about all of the little things that make the big differences.
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And to come up with mildly amusing subheaders!
 
DNA Doc said:
Maybe I just missed it, but could you clarify what you'd like us to consider including?
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Keep in mind, its merely something I personally, and probably others would want to know. Say this systems eval was done, and you had like a Pentium D lying around and slapped it in there. Adding a drive to one of the extra SATA connectors, adding in an independent sound card you may have lying around. If its possible to add a Water Cooling kit (maybe a Corsair or simlar kit you've used previously), etc. I realize it may be a stretch for you to pull some of the higher end swaps out, since you have to return it and obviously can't mod it. But like I say, many of us old time [H]'ers would buy the system ASSUMING we are going to format c:/ and start over, and possibly use higher end parts from previous rigs while saving dinero configuring it with stuff we don't need.

Maybe at almost 33, my grandpa clause is causing me to have less time to part out a 'from scratch' system ;) But if I can get an unbelieveable upgrade in core parts using some things from my other rigs, it may be the only reason for me to consider buying this machine without having to be annoyed chasing Motherboard mounting screws as they fall underneath the motherboard putting it in while your kids are screaming and driving you crazy (or in my case, my jabber-jaw parrot going bonkers because I am not paying absolute attention to him :D ) I hope I am articulating the overall direction i'm trying to convey, if not I'll try later. I was up until 4.AM playing Civ4 on the 9300 until a mem allocation error caused it to crash, so my aging gen-x body is having issues recovering :(
 
Nasty_Savage said:
Keep in mind, its merely something I personally, and probably others would want to know. Say this systems eval was done, and you had like a Pentium D lying around and slapped it in there. Adding a drive to one of the extra SATA connectors, adding in an independent sound card you may have lying around. If its possible to add a Water Cooling kit (maybe a Corsair or simlar kit you've used previously), etc. I realize it may be a stretch for you to pull some of the higher end swaps out, since you have to return it and obviously can't mod it. But like I say, many of us old time [H]'ers would buy the system ASSUMING we are going to format c:/ and start over, and possibly use higher end parts from previous rigs while saving dinero configuring it with stuff we don't need.
(
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Why spend the money on parts that you are not going to use...there are plenty of places that sell just core upgrade kits (prebuilds/pretested combos). You can then just focus on getting the components that you will actually use/need...and be able to get better ones at that. Buying a crappy system, and then trying to use parts from your old rig, plus other purchased components...just seems like a lot of money going places it doesnt need to.

Don't get me wrong I see the angle you would want to add to the review...but...honestly, you could buy a REALLY nice prebuild/pretested combo for a third (or fourth) of what the XPS Dell cost. Even for the really cheap $499 stuff that dell puts out...you could use that money to buy a really nice prebuild and throw in maybe your HDD and Optical drives. Maybe the video card that you upgraded would be able to make the jump as well.
 
Nasty_Savage said:
Keep in mind, its merely something I personally, and probably others would want to know. Say this systems eval was done, and you had like a Pentium D lying around and slapped it in there. Adding a drive to one of the extra SATA connectors, adding in an independent sound card you may have lying around. If its possible to add a Water Cooling kit (maybe a Corsair or simlar kit you've used previously), etc. I realize it may be a stretch for you to pull some of the higher end swaps out, since you have to return it and obviously can't mod it. But like I say, many of us old time [H]'ers would buy the system ASSUMING we are going to format c:/ and start over, and possibly use higher end parts from previous rigs while saving dinero configuring it with stuff we don't need.
Click to expand...

Okay, thanks for clearing up your idea. This has been a suggestion since the inception of our program. There is a central reason that we don't do this: we evaluate computers as they are received. If we mod the hell out of them, they're no longer a Dell, FNW, or ABS - they're an OEM chassis with Chris Morley/Jason Wall/Brian Boyko final integration. This does not allow us to make a complete evaluation of the company because the company didn't do all of the work. Furthermore, we can't evaluate their support system if we send them a different system than we received.

Another reason that we stick to the original configuration is that the percentage of the computer-buying population that actually knows how to upgrade and mod their computer is exceedingly small. This program is meant for novices that don't know what to look for in a computer. This also helps people (maybe like you) have a complete picture of the OEM so that you can make informed, educated recommendations to friends and family.

In some cases (take our PC Club Fuzion evaluation) we have made upgrades to the system to make sure that it can perform our tests. Keep in mind that these are upgrades above and beyond what was in the system previously, not a change or modification. In the case of the Fuzion, it had an integrated graphics solution that we upgraded to a 6600GT, I believe. This was to illustrate something very different from what you're describing. We wanted to convey the feasibility of operating on a small budget, and still getting a very decent machine. While it might be cool to see what we can tweak and go crazy on in an OEM box, it just doesn't serve to help out enough people for us to make the time/monetary investment.

Just in case I didn't explain our rationale well enough, here are the editorials stating what the aims of this program are:

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzU5

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=ODE4

Thanks for reading!
 
Excellent review I enjoyed reading your take on dell's 'gamer' system. The review was very honest about the good and bads of the system.
 
hardwarephreak said:
Why spend the money on parts that you are not going to use...there are plenty of places that sell just core upgrade kits (prebuilds/pretested combos). You can then just focus on getting the components that you will actually use/need...and be able to get better ones at that. Buying a crappy system, and then trying to use parts from your old rig, plus other purchased components...just seems like a lot of money going places it doesnt need to.

Don't get me wrong I see the angle you would want to add to the review...but...honestly, you could buy a REALLY nice prebuild/pretested combo for a third (or fourth) of what the XPS Dell cost. Even for the really cheap $499 stuff that dell puts out...you could use that money to buy a really nice prebuild and throw in maybe your HDD and Optical drives. Maybe the video card that you upgraded would be able to make the jump as well.
Click to expand...

You have a point, but lemme paint a bigger picture. Say you are like me with my Abit board, IDE drives, etc. IF I was going to stick to Pentium and Intel, wouldn't you think that a big picture upgrade when say, Vista comes out it would be more econimical for me to buy a Dell XPS with SATA drives, a brand new OS and things I need to 'get the ball rollin'? Because I sat on this system and went in other directions for work (the Macs, and the cube server in my sig for instance) its much more of a pain in the rear to go the direction you suggest, even though its the better option overall. I have a sincere lack of time (and now desire since I do this for a living now) to part out a new system. Though I would probably in the end do it anyway, sometimes I am very tempted sometimes with a shiny deal...knowing the outside stuff would be more of an incentive to push me over the edge.

DNA Doc said:
Okay, thanks for clearing up your idea. This has been a suggestion since the inception of our program. There is a central reason that we don't do this: we evaluate computers as they are received. If we mod the hell out of them, they're no longer a Dell, FNW, or ABS - they're an OEM chassis with Chris Morley/Jason Wall/Brian Boyko final integration. This does not allow us to make a complete evaluation of the company because the company didn't do all of the work. Furthermore, we can't evaluate their support system if we send them a different system than we received.

Another reason that we stick to the original configuration is that the percentage of the computer-buying population that actually knows how to upgrade and mod their computer is exceedingly small. This program is meant for novices that don't know what to look for in a computer. This also helps people (maybe like you) have a complete picture of the OEM so that you can make informed, educated recommendations to friends and family.

In some cases (take our PC Club Fuzion evaluation) we have made upgrades to the system to make sure that it can perform our tests. Keep in mind that these are upgrades above and beyond what was in the system previously, not a change or modification. In the case of the Fuzion, it had an integrated graphics solution that we upgraded to a 6600GT, I believe. This was to illustrate something very different from what you're describing. We wanted to convey the feasibility of operating on a small budget, and still getting a very decent machine. While it might be cool to see what we can tweak and go crazy on in an OEM box, it just doesn't serve to help out enough people for us to make the time/monetary investment.
Click to expand...

Well, i suppose the last statement is the kicker there. I understand the [H] is trying to expand its audience and business. But I am not in general asking you to compromise that. Do the evaluation as is to show the out of box experience as you are doing, and have a paragraph at the end after you take a proverbial chainsaw to it. Be helpful to see if things like the power supply holds up with added gizmos etc. While indeed you are correct, people who can do this sort of stuff are more of a niche audience, you also have a website and forum dedicated to those niche guys and we all frikken hang out here!
:D I personally can't speak for everyone, but I just more or less skip the bread and go right for the meaty conclusion on your sammiches to find out the bottom line. You don't have to go in depth with it. Just a 'hey for giggles we slapped a few hard drives and upgraded the chip and the OEM told us no way buddy'. I guess its a judgement call, be a nice nod to us miscreants that lurk in the forums though ;)
 
Very good review. Regardless of the bloatware, I would still buy a Dell because of the low price. I also like the BTX case; it should keep the noise level down quite a bit.

When ordering the Dell, it would be a good idea to ask the sales rep. to include all the extra programs so you wouldn't have to do it later.

Regarding the fresh install. What are the exact steps? Is it necessary to have a 3.5in floppy drive?

Is it possible to take the BIOS from the XPS600 and use that to overclock the XPS400?

I thought the 3 year warranty would be a good deal because Dell would replace parts without too much trouble.
 
The best part of the whole review is the mousepad issue.

I've seen that issue with every dell mousepad and optical mouse ever since they started selling them.

A few months ago I got a greenish mousepad with a Precision 380 and after getting over how ugly it was hoped they fixed the problem so I would stop getting calls from clients with dell mousepads...

Nope, it wasn't as bad as the black ones but it still did tweaky things occasionally.

You'd think someone at dell would have noticed this by now... Or maybe they don't pay the extra $3 to get a crappy mousepad.
 
Also I don't beleive you can select to delete your partition with any windows installation CD when run from windows. That's not just a dell issue.


edit: And if you take a dell box with the dell OS disc and wipe the thing when you first get it, then install the newest drivers from the OEM maker of anything missing a good driver you'll end up with a great system.

And something has to be said for their onsite repair/replacement even if they give you the runaround before replacing the part. I've found doing an emailed support issue explaining your diagnosis of why it's really dead and why you really need a new one has always been responded to with a OK we'll dispatch you parts only. ( I request parts only in the email )

For dell laptops with completecare, you can't find a better deal on system+warranty with damage protection. They aren't built to take it but with the warranty who cares :eek:

I run a company that's a dell channel sales / solution provider reseller... so I work with a LOT of dell stuff...

Small Business > Home site, and preinstalled stuff.

I'd highly reccomend the Precision 380 systems over any dimension. They come very clean, and you can have them come with no AV/Internet/Etc... as well. The highest end optiplex systems are also good. The only problem is the video card choices... Optiplex is for business and Precision is for CAD/3D content creation. They do have real graphics card slots so you can order with the cheapest card and get your own card, which is usually a better deal than an XPS with a card. (aside from warranty not covering the card)

I have a high end dimension as a second PC and I hated it's OOBE as well.

There's also the option when you buy to include the OS and driver CD's... You may have missed that on the home site. Dell's spotty about that. Sometimes it's default checked, sometimes through promo's to get it down to 999 etc it's unchecked.

Their LCD monitors have also been great and a good price too. Not so for their printers which are pretty much crap.
 
ittech said:
Also I don't beleive you can select to delete your partition with any windows installation CD when run from windows. That's not just a dell issue.
Click to expand...
You are correct.
 
hardwarephreak said:
I'm not picking on you, honestly I'm not...

But hardware is the smallest piece of the puzzle...seriously...the SMALLEST. Everyone sells the same hardware...you buy the same stuff Dell sells through ANY OEM. Aside from thier usually proprietary form factored mobos (which have std chipsets)...the hardware can be bought from anyone...maybe cheaper, maybe more expensive...

Pretty much every other factor aside from hardware should be the focus...(defective HW notwithstanding)

I mean how many differences will there be between every manufacturers version of the 6800GT...aside from the defaultly OC'd versions, they are all going to operate within the same margin of error given all other factors are the same.
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pickin' on me? is this kindergarden?

the hardware is the basis of any computer system...i guess that isn't important? the motherboard, cooling devices (which are some of the best for oem systems), and cases are all proprietary to dell or any other manufacturer...of course all of the other components are the same for any manufacturer...

saying something like a motherboard not being important when you manufacture computer systems is a pretty bonehead comment... :rolleyes:

the example of the 6800GT is funny, since most manufacturers use different versions of peripherals like video cards in their systems...i.e dell used a 6800GTO that was clocked different than anything you could buy oem or retail....

i think the quality of the hardware is a little more important than bloatware/3rd party applications on a computer system...sorry buddy... ;)

no amount of dorking with a different software config is gonna help low quality/faulty/unstable hardware...

i guess they should focus more on putting less useless software on their systems and less time seeing if the hardware operates correctly...lol...

whenever there is a change in chipset technology/memory technology/etc...dell does a massive amount of testing since pre-production chipsets/integrated video/memory interfaces/etc. operate correctly in the development phase...maybe you would be suprised ...when ddr memory came out on the p4 platform the 845 chipset that we tested had so many bugs that a good portion of the time they would not even boot...let alone function correctly...large oem manufacturers spend a large amount of time/testing in cooperation with the manufacturer (usually intel in dell's case) to get the newest technology incorporated into their systems at launch...

don't come in here and tell me hardware is moot point when it comes to computers....you are just picking on yourself not anyone else...

i guess everyone that buys manufactured pc's should care more about how much bloatware ships on the system more that if the motherboard/psu/ide controller/etc. fails after a month.... :eek:
 
Chris_Morley said:
You are correct.
Click to expand...

i think i brought that to light in my first post in this thread...

anyway i think the review is a good one since it is targeted towards the average consumer...i didn't realize that before i started bitching.
 
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