NVIDIA Founders Edition Early Adopters Tax Goes Away

[schizo]

I don't see any means of moving to a Founder's Edition structure that won't upset significant numbers of people.

Well, I mean, this is the internet. Giving it away for free would upset tons of people.

If I was nvidia, I would:

1) Call it the "Pure Edition". "Founders Edition" implies initial availability only.
2) In the presentation, say it's engineered for extraordinary stability, very low noise, and controlling case temperature, and go into more detail Jony Ive style about the awesome vapor chamber cooler. Swooping visuals, cut-outs, the works.
3) Speaking directly to tech media, talk about how Nvidia always breaks even on reference cards, and they want to offer the superior stable experience with their amazing vapor chamber cooler without risking losing money on it.
4) Price it at $649
5) Say that the Pure Edition and AIB cards would be available starting May 27
6) Offer a 5 year warranty

If they did all 6 above, people would have embraced it. This would have been smart marketing.

 

[PGHammer]

I STILL think that the entire "Founder's Edition" is more that they are seeing "Founder's Edition" as the ceiling, as opposed to a floor; it's why I instead compared the FE to reference designs from other companies - Microsoft in particular with Surface and Lumia. Surface and Lumia (even the Surface Pro and Surface Book sublines) are indeed reference designs; however, none of them are designed as (or meant to be) the ultimate anything); if anything, these are minimums (a floor, if you will) - not the ceiling. What is a reference standard in anything else that is measurable? It's one of three things when it comes to measurements - a mean, an average, or a minimum - it typically is NOT a maximum. So how in the heck did a reference design become a maximum (from anybody - even nVidia?) If (by the usual measuring standards) - an AIB (or several) beats down a Founder's Edition (and does so for less) then the FE designs are objectively crap - that can be a rather straightforward conclusion, true? (I certainly would not be able to argue otherwise - and I doubt anyone else could - including nVidia.) However, what if that - in fact - does NOT happen? What if the Founder's Edition design - cooler and all - puts the smackdown on most - or all - the AIB non-binned designs using the same GPU, memory, etc.? In other words, the Founder's Edition proves itself - even when compared to the AIBs? Who would you say would be at fault? Comparative benchmarking - FE vs. non-FE - is going to be the first - and most obvious - way of getting that straight.

In my case, I'm looking hard at the FE cards with a GTX1070 because I plan on running one exactly as it is - a change in cooling (to water) is a change - one I have absolutely zero intent on making. A Founder's Edition card is a known quantity that I will be using as it is; if I plan on changing to water, I'd be better off getting a card from an AIB with a backplate; there will certainly be plenty of those available - without the markup. (From EVGA, for example.) If a non-FE card beats an FE at a cheaper price, I'd certainly be better off purchasing the cheaper card, would I not? If AIB beats the Founder's Edition benchmark - and for less, I'll purchase the best-bang-for-buck AIB design that beats the FE instead OF an FE design - that is a straightforward matter of common sense. However, if that doesn't happen, that means that the FE design proves itself, and the AIBs have to try harder. (While some AIBs will suffer from egg-on-the-face, that means they have to try harder.) Irregardless, everybody wins.

 

[IcePickFreak]

In other words, it went from "early adopter tax" to simply a price hike.

If by "price hike" you mean they're gonna send that $100 bill straight to terrorists, and then sit around the office and slap babies around, yeah. Learn to read between the lines, man.

 

[viscountalpha]

Well, thanks for complaining, guys... now nobody gets it early. LOL.

Now the wealthy are forced to wait along with the poor, I guess? People get some kind of weird satisfaction out of that type of fairness.

Maybe it's more that nVidia needed to buy some more time and this was the perfect excuse?

This is purely supposition. I don't have any evidence to back this up with.

 

[Fixall]

What exactly are people still pissy about? If you like/want the Nvidia cooler buy the FE for $699 on the 27th. If you don't like the Nvidia cooler buy an AIB designed card for $599+ on the 27th. If you're still pissed off about the price of the FE, you obviously place some value in the design.

Also... Can someone show me a better performing blower style cooler offered on mainstream cards? I'm guessing not. When I'm not watercooling my GPU, I prefer a blower style cooler. A blower doesn't cause my CPU loop to heat up as much as an open air cooler... And blowers tend to really shine when set up in SLI.

 

[Mugato]

If by "price hike" you mean they're gonna send that $100 bill straight to terrorists, and then sit around the office and slap babies around, yeah. Learn to read between the lines, man.

Err? I hesitated to quote just because it would post this nonsense again but, wat?

 

[HockeyJon]

Well, I mean, this is the internet. Giving it away for free would upset tons of people.

If I was nvidia, I would:

1) Call it the "Pure Edition". "Founders Edition" implies initial availability only.
2) In the presentation, say it's engineered for extraordinary stability, very low noise, and controlling case temperature, and go into more detail Jony Ive style about the awesome vapor chamber cooler. Swooping visuals, cut-outs, the works.
3) Speaking directly to tech media, talk about how Nvidia always breaks even on reference cards, and they want to offer the superior stable experience with their amazing vapor chamber cooler without risking losing money on it.
4) Price it at $649
5) Say that the Pure Edition and AIB cards would be available starting May 27
6) Offer a 5 year warranty

If they did all 6 above, people would have embraced it. This would have been smart marketing.

I guarantee you this launches with strong sales regardless. Why not make the extra $100? Are you suddenly oh so turned off that you're never buying Nvidia ever again? People will buy it, I promise you that, and Nvidia shareholders will cash in.

Also, 5 year warranty? What kind of upgrade cycle is an enthusiast on that drops down $700USD on a video card that makes this a worthwhile selling feature?

 

[kac77]

What exactly are people still pissy about? If you like/want the Nvidia cooler buy the FE for $699 on the 27th. If you don't like the Nvidia cooler buy an AIB designed card for $599+ on the 27th. If you're still pissed off about the price of the FE, you obviously place some value in the design.

Well if someone called you an idiot but then gave you an "award" for being smart would you be mad? The problem with all of this is that Nvidia wanted to launch early before they really had volume. We know this because when they launch a card usually we see cards on the shelf either same day or next. I'm not even going to debate on the paper launch thing because it's obvious to me what it is. Either way this did not happen. Instead they marketed the short supply and early launch as "Founder Edition" (which is still hilarious) with a $100 price hike. Did anyone force Nvidia to do this? No. Did enthusiasts ask for it? Nope. Has anyone else done this? No one comes to mind at the moment.

Now they got rid of it which is a very good thing. I'm happy about it. I'll probably buy a card on the 27th. Either way Nvidia tried to piss on everyone's leg and call it rain. Regardless if someone shakes your hand after screwing your girlfriend you do not just move on like nothing happened. There are only two types of people who do that: stroke victims or just plain victims looking for company (oh and hookers). I am neither. Therefore when someone or some company throws out BS (if it's egregious enough) I'll call them on it.

You know how Nvidia could have done this? Here I'll show you how. NVIDIA RELEASES LIMITED EDITION GOLD PLATED GTX 1080 WITH A COOLER THAT BUYS YOU CONDOMS WHEN YOU RUN OUT. PRICE $699
See that's how you do it. You don't insult everyone's intelligence by providing some basic card at a higher price. It's about value. If Nvidia did that shit I would buy it, sit on it, and buy another one for the computer.

 

[Fixall]

Also, 5 year warranty? What kind of upgrade cycle is an enthusiast on that drops down $700USD on a video card that makes this a worthwhile selling feature?

A good warranty can be a pretty big persuader when it comes to buying a high end card. I typically buy the latest and greatest each year and every used EVGA card I've sold has sold quicker and had more interest than the other brands... The warranty was a big part of that.

The thing with Nvidia is that their warranties don't transfer to second party buyers like EVGA and a few others do.

 

[HockeyJon]

A good warranty can be a pretty big persuader when it comes to buying a high end card. I typically buy the latest and greatest each year and every used EVGA card I've sold has sold quicker and had more interest than the other brands... The warranty was a big part of that.

The thing with Nvidia is that their warranties don't transfer to second party buyers like EVGA and a few others do.

I'm sure secondary sales affect that to a degree, but people who want the best will always shell out for it. My point is basically that Nvidia really doesn't have to do anything else.

Either way, I agreed with your earlier post. Don't like it, don't buy it. They will drop the price if people don't buy any of them, but they likely put it where it is because they know enough people will that they'll make money off of it. They're a corporation at the end of the day, not a charity, and they don't have to do crap like offer a 5 year warranty to sell this thing because no one cares.

 

[ChosenUno]

Well you can think of it as a monopoly tax on blower coolers. Since no one else is doing them at all except NVIDIA it's no wonder they wanted to charge more for it. AIBs are free to release blower SKUs for cheaper, but I highly doubt they'll perform close to NVIDIA's vapor chamber while costing less.

 

[Fixall]

Well you can think of it as a monopoly tax on blower coolers. Since no one else is doing them at all except NVIDIA it's no wonder they wanted to charge more for it. AIBs are free to release blower SKUs for cheaper, but I highly doubt they'll perform close to NVIDIA's vapor chamber while costing less.

MSI does a blower style cooler for their cheapest 980 Ti. It's hot and loud and should be killed with fire... It reminds me of the GTX 480. That's the only current blower cooler I can think of on the 980 Ti other than the reference Nvidia cooler. EVGA used to have a vapor chamber blower on their FTW 600 series that was pretty decent... But it was nowhere near the same quality as the Titan cooler.

 

[TaintedSquirrel]

This is... a mess. I'm gonna go hide my wallet until this all settles down.

 

[schizo]

5 year warranty? What kind of upgrade cycle is an enthusiast on that drops down $700USD on a video card that makes this a worthwhile selling feature?

My suggestion was that they should have based the reference card pitch on craftsmanship, stability, and quality. A long warranty means they stand behind their product.

 

[Brackle]

This is... a mess. I'm gonna go hide my wallet until this all settles down.

That's what I am doing. I am still rocking a 46inch 1080p monitor. I will wait out for the Nvidia/AMD/Pricing/Paper Launch bullshit to settle down.

I would like to see a properly built 1080 GTX. 1-6pin 1-8pin or the MSI lightning.

 

[Deleted member 83233]

When I see an actual (and decent) 1070 for $379 I'll buy. That will be a bit simpler than deciding on a 1080 though.

 

[collegeboy69us]

eh -- I don't see why people are that bitchy about the whole founders thing. Either it's worth the money or it's not, and that's on a person by person basis. I'm sure there will be stock issues for the first month or two, only natural. To some folks it's worth an extra 100 dollars to start enjoying instantly.

It's a pure profit move by nvidia, and one that any sane business would institute if the market conditions were right. They have a hot product, and those with the nerd boners and the cash will take advantage of it, it's just one option in what will turn out to be many flavors of cards that will pop up.

I'm waiting for a dual fan solution from MSI personally.

 

[{NG}Fidel]

For some people its worth it to spend 10 grand at a strip club but we all know thats stupid. I just feel we should call a money grab a money grab when we see it. Sure you can commend the company for making a good choice business wise but for an enthusiast site not to ding them for essentially saying "hey pay 100 more dollars for what amounts to a blower style cooler you are used to getting for MSRP" (when not gouged by the etailer), is a little tame.

 

[collegeboy69us]

eh -- just looking around in other industries, things have turned the way they are because it's been proven that people are willing to pay for X. Be that DLC, or the extra battery capacity that's in every Tesla, (but not accessible unless you pay for it)

Even if this whole "founders edition" was never conceived... the same sort of money grab would have occured at the retailer level, nvidia just decided to capture some of that market that will exist in the first few months of launch. I fully anticipate that the MSI varient that will come out soon after launch will cost 649 easily... I've already prepared my mind and wallet, everyone has their price. Anything over that and I'll be happy to wait longer

 

[Geck0]

What this whole thing spells to me is 2 things;

1) Supply is constrained, expect FuryX levels of nonavailabilty in the first month or 2 maybe?

2) Nvidia arrogance again, "If they are bitching make them wait, they will pay anyway" (while we get some stock ramped up).

Just My .02

 

[kac77]

For some people its worth it to spend 10 grand at a strip club but we all know thats stupid. I just feel we should call a money grab a money grab when we see it. Sure you can commend the company for making a good choice business wise but for an enthusiast site not to ding them for essentially saying "hey pay 100 more dollars for what amounts to a blower style cooler you are used to getting for MSRP" (when not gouged by the etailer), is a little tame.

Well the best thing you can do is vote with your wallet. It has cascading effects if enough people do it. To be honest I have never purchased an AMD card before. But I'm starting to get tired of the antics. We'll see. I'm going to wait and see how this generation plays out. I can wait. It's not like I'm rocking some S3 Virge card.

 

[N4CR]

So MSRP +100 still stands and it's still not till end of the month. It may as well have been a 'paper launch'. Fucking hell Nvidia, rubbing salt in the wound.

That means they'll be available when AMD launches Polaris at Computex. Not a bad thing really. Anyone smart will wait till people get AIB boards and are able to see what the power circuitry does. If it's the same, there is almost no point in getting one of these 1080 reference gouging editions if you're [H].. power limited overclocking sucks donkey dicks.

Check this post out by Extide, you can see how much they gimped the power circuitry, almost to the point of false advertising.

Lol, I love how they brag about this, but them skimped out on the actual final cards .. The PCB has traces for dual fets on each phase BUT THEY ARE ONLY USING ONE!

See those small black chips on the right of the big square chokes (they have R22 on them), those are the fet's, those are actually what switches on and off the power. (Very quickly, of course, in the Khz probably but I would have to hook it to my scope to see). See how there is only one next to each choke...

FAIL! Lol. I mean that's almost straight up false advertising.

And as far as the bit about extra capacitance on the filtering network, you can see that they have traces for another cap on the right side near the power connector. I mean, this one is a little bit less of a lie, because they may have indeed increased the capacitance vs previous cards, but obviously they are pinching pennies here, I mean seriously another poly cap like that is a few cents.

I mean obviously the card works fine, but I really have an issue with them SPECIFICALLY claiming they are using dual fets on the phases .. and then not.

Even if the FE gpus were binned, that would be an implicit statement that the non-FE cards are reject chips

They are already reject chips... why do you think they don't just release the Ti now? This is how they have played the game since they went into the compute/deep learning/etc markets. We get the shit chips till that market is saturated. They'd rather sell that chip for 4k instead of 600+100usd for the gouging edition.

 

[ChosenUno]

So MSRP +100 still stands and it's still not till end of the month. It may as well have been a 'paper launch'. Fucking hell Nvidia, rubbing salt in the wound.

That means they'll be available when AMD launches Polaris at Computex. Not a bad thing really. Anyone smart will wait till people get AIB boards and are able to see what the power circuitry does. If it's the same, there is almost no point in getting one of these 1080 reference gouging editions if you're [H].. power limited overclocking sucks donkey dicks.

Check this post out by Extide, you can see how much they gimped the power circuitry, almost to the point of false advertising.

Well, official launch date is May 27th so what's the issue?

The card works fine with the power circuitry so where's the gimping? They showed 2.1GHz on air and most reviews I've seen get close to that. The only issue is that the default fan profile is too conservative, if you up the fan speed closer to 100% you solve the thermal issue. Going past 2.1GHz is where you hit power limits, but that's AIB territory.

Even if they leave the components in, you wouldn't be able to overclock higher because of the cooler, so what's the point? If they left it in and it overclocks well, they'll be effectively competing with their AIBs, something they really don't wanna do. Makes no sense.

What if the board design is based on GP100's designs and they just removed unnecessary components to reduce cost? That makes much more sense logically than what you're proposing.

They are already reject chips... why do you think they don't just release the Ti now? This is how they have played the game since they went into the compute/deep learning/etc markets. We get the shit chips till that market is saturated. They'd rather sell that chip for 4k instead of 600+100usd for the gouging edition.

1080 is the full GP104 so either you're ignorant or trolling.

 

[Michaelius]

Well, official launch date is May 27th so what's the issue?

The card works fine with the power circuitry so where's the gimping? They showed 2.1GHz on air and most reviews I've seen get close to that. The only issue is that the default fan profile is too conservative, if you up the fan speed closer to 100% you solve the thermal issue. Going past 2.1GHz is where you hit power limits, but that's AIB territory.

Even if they leave the components in, you wouldn't be able to overclock higher because of the cooler, so what's the point? If they left it in and it overclocks well, they'll be effectively competing with their AIBs, something they really don't wanna do. Makes no sense.

What if the board design is based on GP100's designs and they just removed unnecessary components to reduce cost? That makes much more sense logically than what you're proposing.

That's correct but why the hell we are paying $100 more for it now When I got reference 980ti it was cheaper than other models.

 

[ChosenUno]

That's correct but why the hell we are paying $100 more for it now When I got reference 980ti it was cheaper than other models.

One possibility is that NVIDIA realised that they have a monopoly on blower designs and now charge premium pricing for that monopoly? I'm sure this time around there will be board partners coming out with cheaper blower alternatives that probably will blow

 

[Creig]

That's correct but why the hell we are paying $100 more for it now When I got reference 980ti it was cheaper than other models.

You expect Jen-Hsun to keep driving around in last year's Tesla? Come on, cough up some dough! Those things don't pay for themselves!

 

[{NG}Fidel]

He's such an obnoxious CEO.

 

[N4CR]

Well, official launch date is May 27th so what's the issue?

The card works fine with the power circuitry so where's the gimping? They showed 2.1GHz on air and most reviews I've seen get close to that. The only issue is that the default fan profile is too conservative, if you up the fan speed closer to 100% you solve the thermal issue. Going past 2.1GHz is where you hit power limits, but that's AIB territory.

Even if they leave the components in, you wouldn't be able to overclock higher because of the cooler, so what's the point? If they left it in and it overclocks well, they'll be effectively competing with their AIBs, something they really don't wanna do. Makes no sense.

What if the board design is based on GP100's designs and they just removed unnecessary components to reduce cost? That makes much more sense logically than what you're proposing.



1080 is the full GP104 so either you're ignorant or trolling.

GP104 while a different chip 'design', is based on the GP100 as a mid range gpu priced higher end, so yes, it is gimped from what they could be offering, the GP100 is currently available in the DGX-1 at 130k for 8 GPUs. As the Polaris 10 is a gimped out version of what Vega likely will be but AMD isn't currently offering that to other markets like Nvidia does.. Reject chip was poor choice of wording though.

2.1GHz on air at 67 degrees with a frame limiter, is a far cry from 100% fan to avoid thermal throttling and power limits with a constant clock and an actual load on the GPU... We're still learning about boost3. And hardly anyone runs GPUs at 100% fans on a blower. I used to sometimes on a 7970 vapour chamber reference (founders edition lol) card and it really gets to be a pain in the ass. I bet they have a similar blower design capability considering the TDP is far higher.

Nvidia mentioned watercoolers/aftermarket cooler people wanting to buy reference models. People buying the reference card have no use for that without the power circuitry they crowed about.. it's not there. What the fuck sort of bullshit is that. If I were an Nvidia fan I'd be pissed - they did the full on marketing bait and switch.

edit: I thought the whole point of the reference card (other than high power dual fet circuitry for watercoolers/air coolers, awesome 'vapour chamber' blower cooler, awesome overclockability, continued availability for OEMs) is so it was available 2 weeks earlier than AIBs, which is now not happening.

The all new 1080-X reference delayed launch edition!

 

[ChosenUno]

GP104 while a different chip 'design', is based on the GP100 as a mid range gpu priced higher end, so yes, it is gimped from what they could be offering, the GP100 is currently available in the DGX-1 at 130k for 8 GPUs. As the Polaris 10 is a gimped out version of what Vega likely will be but AMD isn't currently offering that to other markets like Nvidia does.. Reject chip was poor choice of wording though.

2.1GHz on air at 67 degrees with a frame limiter, is a far cry from 100% fan to avoid thermal throttling and power limits with a constant clock and an actual load on the GPU... We're still learning about boost3. And hardly anyone runs GPUs at 100% fans on a blower. I used to sometimes on a 7970 vapour chamber reference (founders edition lol) card and it really gets to be a pain in the ass. I bet they have a similar blower design capability considering the TDP is far higher.

Nvidia mentioned watercoolers/aftermarket cooler people wanting to buy reference models. People buying the reference card have no use for that without the power circuitry they crowed about.. it's not there. What the fuck sort of bullshit is that. If I were an Nvidia fan I'd be pissed - they did the full on marketing bait and switch.

The only thing NVIDIA did to achieve 2.1GHz on air at 67oC was to push fan speed up to 100%, like Tom's did here:
Temperature And Noise Results - Nvidia GeForce GTX 1080 Pascal Review

You could say they cherry picked a good sample for their presentation to allow for constant 2.1GHz and 67oC, but it's not impossible.

When did they mentioned WC/aftermarket people wanting to buy reference designs? I did not see that anywhere, especially during the announcement presentation.

 

[Yakk]

In other words, it went from "early adopter tax" to simply a price hike.

Well, the marketing message I received was "a price increase for craftsmanship."

Calling this a vulgar price hike, while essentially correct, sounds.. oh so... ...unstylish.

 

[Hornet]

Just wait for the custom design, don't really see what's the big deal.

That's what I'll be doing. Wait and see which 3rd party company offers a good 1080 design. MSI Lightning EVGA Classified etc.

 

[N4CR]

You could say they cherry picked a good sample for their presentation to allow for constant 2.1GHz and 67oC, but it's not impossible.

When did they mentioned WC/aftermarket people wanting to buy reference designs? I did not see that anywhere, especially during the announcement presentation.

Your own data shows it doesn't hold 2.1GHz beyond a single benchmark and for a second or two... it's not sufficient cooling and is a misrepresentation. The card shown at the release, was not being utilized at 100% with a frame limiter, for them to have 2.1GHz stable on that cooler with any chip.

They lied, end of story.

Pretty sure it was a video or article where Nvidia discussed reference edition cards (while we were all clawing for info). I'm looking around for it but the general consensus is why people expected such good power circuitry - they crowed about it, as you can see in the launch presentation. There are no dual fets.. there is a blank space next to each one.

Well, the marketing message I received was "a price increase for craftsmanship."

Yeah craftmanship where they yank half your power circuitry, give you a paltry single connector and a blower cooler which is probably no better than what the 7970 shipped with... a complete fleecing.

 

[{NG}Fidel]

That's the point we are at now. Just getting openly price gouged for a basic pcb and blower style cooler and we all take it in the ass by saying, "hey you know what, that 100 is no big deal because they can do it!"

 

[TaintedSquirrel]

That's the point we are at now. Just getting openly price gouged for a basic pcb and blower style cooler and we all take it in the ass by saying, "hey you know that what, 100 is no big deal because they can do it!"

As long as the non-ref models are ~$600 as promised, I couldn't care less about rubes giving Nvidia an extra $100 to early adopt.

I do feel bad for people who just want a ref board, though. For watercooling / small cases / aesthetics (maybe?).

 

[Stoly]

Talk about misleading title

I was hoping for a price cut

 

[schizo]

That's the point we are at now. Just getting openly price gouged for a basic pcb and blower style cooler and we all take it in the ass by saying, "hey you know what, that 100 is no big deal because they can do it!"

Did you read the update? AIB cards are coming out May 27 too. You can choose to pay the extra $100 for a reference card on May 27, or you can buy an AIB card on May 27. Nothing to complain about there.

 

[TaintedSquirrel]

Did you read the update? AIB cards are coming out May 27 too. You can choose to pay the extra $100 for a reference card on May 27, or you can buy an AIB card on May 27. Nothing to complain about there.

I'm inclined to believe that since we already saw the MSI board leak a few weeks ago.
If it's true, we should see way more info (teasers/leaks) before May 27th. So far we have one tease from Gigabyte and it says "June".

 

[FrgMstr]

Talk about misleading title

I was hoping for a price cut

Sorry I made you think a little bit.

 

[Yakk]

Yeah craftmanship where they yank half your power circuitry, give you a paltry single connector and a blower cooler which is probably no better than what the 7970 shipped with... a complete fleecing.

Weeeeeell now, but look at all the angles on the shroud!

Seriously, what I find even more interesting is which AIBs are going to include MORE circuitry, bettercooling, custom software for LESS money? Especially when they know up to how much they could charge.

 

[Gigus Fire]

tax is in $$ not in time.
The title should be something like "AIB cards to be released the same time as FE"
I thought from reading the title alone that nvidia dropped the standard, lowered the price and is releasing FE at the lower price point. I don't think i'm alone in thinking that from the title.